AMD CPU uprgade....

I'm toying with the idea of a CPU upgrade.... I'm looking at either the PhenomII X4 3.0ghz (the 95w version of the 945; model HDX945WFGIBOX), or the PhenomII X3 2.80ghz Black Edition (the 720; model HDZ720WFGIBOX). Naturally, the tri-core 720 is a lot cheaper, but it has AMAZING overclocking qualities. I've read reports of people getting it over 4ghz! on air cooling, and stable OCs of 3.7ghz or so. However, I've never been a big OCer. The quad-core chip (from what I've read) is quite a bit less flexible on the OCs, but I don't think I'd OC it if that's the CPU I decide on. My mobo has an AMD780 chipset (Biostar model TA780G-M2+) which has a 95w TDP limit on CPUs, so (currently) the X4 945 listed above is the fastest CPU available for my board..... any thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

Thanks! :-D

(I'm seriously leaning towards the X3 720 due to the cost and the fact that it has easy OC properties with the unlocked multiplier, so I could get more "bang-for-the-buck")

 

Since you asked, yes. Don't do it! Understand that OCing is not yesterday's enthusiast's "hobby". Today, it is a marketing gimmick. NO engineer designs in overclocking abilities. The engineer designs to required specifications. Marketing weenies "dummy down" those specifications so users can jack them up again and think they are doing something special. It's not special, it's abusing hardware.

Note the AMD CPU Warranty Information for the retail, Processor In A Box (PIB), versions of their CPUs:

This limited warranty does not cover damages due to external causes, including improper use, problems with electrical power, accident, neglect, alteration, repair, improper installation, or improper testing.

This Limited Warranty shall be null and void if the AMD microprocessor which is the subject of this Limited Warranty is used with any heatsink/fan other than the one provided herewith.​

Understand that even though your motherboard may have extensive overclocking capabilities, you can be sure ASUS, BioStar, Gigabyte or whoever will NOT replace your CPU if it is damaged from overclocking/excessive heat.

Intel CPU Warranty Information is similar.

I've never been a big OCer. That was wise.

If you intend on pursuing this, don't do it on a machine used for work, school, or personal/family/household business. Use a spare machine you are willing to let go up in smoke. And don't take your eye off of your temperatures.

 

dlb, in all likelyhood oc'ing your cpu will shorten it's lifespan. I am sure that you are aware that oc'ing bring its own set of new parameters, ie higher core temps hence better cooling not only for the cpu but overall, testing the rig after oc'ing with progs such as Prime95, etc.

In addition, you should also check your psu rails as the o/c will raise the cpu draw by a meaningful amount. My PSU, OCZ PowerStream has adjustable voltage rails.

I have not built a new rig for about 3 years [wife cannot handle anymore pcs in the house] but my last build used an AMD San Diego core [stock clock 2.4Mhz, stock volts 1.35v]. The core steppings was KAB1E [silicone wafer was excellent] and this allows me to run it at 2.80Ghz [ie FX57 speeds] with a token increase in core voltage [1.375v]. The system has run stably for over 3 years with no errors or issues. I do have good cooling though.

This SD core can go to 3.1Ghz on air with vcore 1.45v and will run stably too.

I think it's a case of horses for course, if you want to have a stab at it, aim at first for a 20-25% oc. Check to see that no errors and take it from their.

As you are well aware it's not difficult but you need to take it slow.

And in answer to your question, a few years ago I would have picked the PhenomII X4 3.0ghz but now I would pick the PhenomII X3 2.80ghz Black Edition and o/c it without a doubt.

Good Luck

 

Thanks for the input guys! Honestly, I'm not too worried about the warranty, and it would be void immediately anyway 'cuz I use an aftermarket cooler, I always have (even though the stock AMD coolers offer excellent cooling, esp when compared to the stock Intel coolers). As I said, I've never been a big OC guy, but if I get the X3 720, I'll probably go with a small OC to 3.0ghz or 3.2ghz (stock is 2.8ghz) and just leave it there once I know it's stable. I have no intentions of being one of these "get-the-highest-OC-possible-at-any-cost" type of guys. Essentially, I'd like a CPU at 3.0ghz or 3.2ghz, and the price difference between the X3 and the X4 is about $50 US. Not a huge difference, but enough of a difference to be something to think about. Both CPUs have excellent reviews online with the 720 being labeled as "the best value in CPUs currently available" at numerous sites; 93% of reviews at Newegg are 5 out of 5 stars (or eggs). So..... I'm still leaning toward the X3, primarily due to the price. If the X4 drops in price to $150, then I'll jump on it, but I don't see that happening in the next few weeks....
PhenomII X4 945 (95w TDP) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103696
PhenomII X3 720 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103649

 

Well, I think Intel OEM coolers offer comparable cooling to AMD OEMs, but that's not important here. What is important is for any reading to understand the consequences. For both AMD or Intel to offer 3 year warranties with their OEM cooling solutions, those cooling solutions must provide adequate cooling as neither company wants the expense of replacing CPUs under warranty. We must understand that CPU or motherboard damage from a failed 3rd party cooler will not be covered under any warranty, especially by the 3rd party cooler maker.

For me, it is not just about providing adequate cooling - but to do it quietly too. The OEMs are not the noisiest, but they are certainly not the quietest either.

 

Same here, the one on my SanDiego is a Thermalright XP90 [aluminium] with an Enermax 92mm fan that is hooked in to a fan controller.

ditto. As I said I run mine at 2.88Ghz [vs 2.4Ghz stock] and after reading many posts I believe that this is a sensible and safe overclock. Other users run this cpu at 3.2-3.3Ghz. I would feel dizzy at those speeds.

Seems very conservative and IMO safe.

The reason I bought the SanDiego 4000+ was simply that at the time the FX57 was well over twice the price and this was an excellent way to get the same speed at a much lower price [and higher bus speed]

Good Luck

 

I gotta put my 2 cents in as well. I agree. Overclocking a cpu Is not wise. Your never gonna notice that big of difference in computer performance. Are you willing to risk Loosing the CPU all together??

Most over clockers simply do it for bragging rights. You also must consider the internet factor.

Most may claim sure I overclocked, Getting this speed, Stable bla bla bla. How can you be sure in most cases??

Save yourself some time and money. Don't overclock. Myself, IMHO Think the quads are another bragging rights thing. If your just a gamer and or average user, Then Dual cores are fine.

Its kinda like the Video card issue. I had a 8800 gts with a dual core and It ran even crysis just fine. No lag no stutter. More cores and More expensive video cards, IMHO Just tend to get a bit overrated. Don't buy the hype.

 

There was a time when very few software apps took advantage of multi-core CPUs, so having a dual core (or even a higher end single core) processor was fine for most things. However, as time goes by, more and more apps are designed to use multiple cores if possible, and with Windows 7 "officially" coming out in about 2 weeks, I think more and more software (including games) will be written for multi-core platforms. I currently run a dual-core AMD64 5400+ at the stock 2.80ghz and have been VERY happy with it. I've had it for about 3 years and I simply think it's time to get a quad core. I just discovered that I can get a "bundle" price cut on the quad core chip listed above if I buy it with a certain motherboard (which also gets a price cut if purchased with the CPU). So, now I need to find someone who needs a new AM3 motherboard! LOL This would lower my cost on the X4 945 to about $145 US and I simply can't pass that up. On the other hand, the X3 720 is also one of the CPUs available in the bundle price cut, and my cost on it would drop to about $100, so it's looking even better! The fact that these CPUs each have a 6mb L3 cache means that I will notice a good jump in performance even though my current CPU is 2.80ghz, and the X3 is also 2.80ghz. That extra cache greatly adds to the performance of the chip.

I agree, and I think that's what overclocking is really all about. It's "I got it to run at 4.8ghz on dry ice" - "Oh yeah?!?! Well, I got 4.97ghz using liquid nitrogen". Who's going to set up a chem lab on top of the motherboard just to get a massive OC to run Crysis better? It truly IS all about bragging. Again, if I was to OC my personal processor, it would be a small bump simply for some extra performance, then I'd just leave it there. No tinkering and tweaking for this guy.

 

And there's nothing wrong with that, if done right. But like all competitions, there are amateurs and there are professionals. A pro does his homework and takes safety and security first, the amateur does not. The professional is prepared for a catastrophic failure, the amateur is not.

I dabbled in OCing long ago, but over time, computers started moving into home theater systems and I became more interested in quiet running systems - not easy with the CPU, GPU, PSU and case fans whirling about. That's when I discovered some folks were underclocking to keep temps and cooling requirements downs.

 

UPDATE -

:celebrate :dood :dancer

I just ordered an AMD PhenomII X4 955 3.2ghz Black Edition AND an Asus SLI motherboard M4N72-E. I'm stoked!!! After rebates and bundle deals, I'm paying about $145US for the CPU and about $90US for the mobo!!!!! WITH FREE SHIPPING!!!! And it's all new stuff with warranties! It should all be installed with Windows 7 X64 by late tomorrow night or maybe Wednesday night, we'll see if UPS behaves and delivers on time....

:dancer :hyper :celebrate :dood

[dlb]
:-D

 

oh yeah.... I have a buyer for my old CPU/Mobo and he offered me $85US, so it's like the new mobo is only $5.00!!!!!!! :celebrate

 

My latest build (see below) I am really enjoying.

Still waiting for Windows 7 in the mail, but the Biostar mobo has onboard overclocking, and for gaming I set the CPU OC with the V-12 engine.

It clocks the CPU at 3.6 GHz, four cores, and I still haven't hit 50 C.

I was very impressed with the stock heat sink, and I do run a case fan, so the PC constantly breathes. The graphics card has it's own fan, and I don't have any heat issues there either.

Most of the idle CPU tasks occupy core3, and the graphics, and audio are usually split over 0 and 1.

Hopefully, I won't shorten it's lifespan with the stock voltage, and a multiplier increase.

 

Sorry but this has been bugging me for several days and CANNOT be left "unanswered".

The engineers design the products purely to meet QC models, i.e. they want to maximise profit margins by minimising the "likelihood" of potential failures for the "dumbest of mum and dad users" in the market place. That is they want to ensure they do not have to do large scale "product recalls", can make the product at the cheapest possible price and cater for those "who can at best is push the on button of their PC". Their likelihood models (for any decent manufacturer) would consider a 1 in a 1000 as reasonable, i.e. 99.99 QC standard for the life of the warranty!! They average OC is aware of this factor and doesn't mind lowering that likelihood to ~%95 or lower because they KNOW they will want to upgrade before the end of the average agreement. No GIMMICK just catering for the "mum and dad" market!

Ironic isn't it that both companies are nowadays embracing the OC market and actually fund and host OC world events offering cash prizes, the same with the other leading edge hardware producers. Why? Because they realise that the OC sector of the market will undertake "extreme R&D", don't mind if they break things (will bear the cost) and are more ready to outlay their "disposable incomes" for the latest and greatest technology, more frequently. Frankly they provide "significant financial support" to the hardware developer who can provide the best product. If we all followed your "ideology" we would still be using P4s with DDR RAM and IDE HDD. There would be "no motivation" in the market place to develop the better product.

That is very obvious but you are also a drag on any significant technological developments within this sector. Professional OC are not fools and would actually make more money than you do by doing something they love. If it wasn't for this sector in the market place always pushing and demanding for more we may as well have "cardboard boxes with monkeys".

My system has been running at 25-30% OC without an issue for more than 3 years (greater than the warranty) and I get a significant performance increase.

Nothing personal intended in the slightest but moral preaching really is a draaaggggg (technologically speaking as well)!

 

Agree with Bold Eagle's comments.

My note, I've recently started OC'ing. I use to be one of those people who were against it. Stick with stock. No need for the speed.

Well, with this current new build, I decided to OC and go water cooling (CPU only). I'm a happy camper now.

And, personally, with personal benchmarks, I have noticed big/noticeable differences in cpu based applications and games.

Just my thoughts....only. You can still do what you want. I'll do what I want. And if my cooler dies and kills my cpu, well, I'll just blame myself, and order a new one, and do it all over again.

 

Now that's silly. Moral preaching? We are not talking right from wrong in the eyes of God here! Gee whiz, Dude. Who's doing the moral preaching? You don't like what you hear so you attempt to stifle or belittle other's inputs?

This is about ensuring readers are informed of the consequences. It would be morally wrong to allow someone to run blindly into a risky situation - that's what I am doing - making sure folks know the risks, and proper precautions. OCing is risky - with potentially very expensive consequences.

Oh sure. We all know the vast majority of OCers are professionals in hardware technologies, right? rolleyes.

You have no clue how much money I make. And what does that have to do with overclocking anyway? But for the record, I make quite a bit of money off overclocking - as OCers who fail to do their homework first bring their broken machines in for me to fix. So not only do I charge for repairing their systems, I often get to sell and install extra fans, alternative cooling solutions, better cases, properly sized PSUs, and on several occasions, new motherboards and CPUs!

You also imply that OCers are driving the advancement in the state-of-the-art. I will not argue that, but I will state they are not THE driving force, by any means. They are but a tiny percentage of the users out there. If any industry is driving advancements, it is the gaming industry, of which only a few are OCing enthusiasts.

As far as OCing "production machines" of which you apparently agree is "very obvious" something folks should not do, but then in the same sentence say,

:confused That again does not make sense. Where is overclocking an accepted policy for work or school machines? I have a lot of money tied up in my computer, but the data on it is worth many times more. And even though I'm the exception (I actually maintain current backups), any downtime means lost productivity. What does it mean for those who don't have current backups? It could potentially be disastrous.

So I say again,

 

Well let's not get bogged down in "semantics" but the US "Free Market" ideology does worship the corporation so moral preaching was quite appropriate in my comments especially as you were implying "do not defy" the corporate policy. If anyone was belittling it was yourself towards the OC sector and implying they are "wrongdoers". Please read your above commentary.

You went above and beyond and simple comment of OC can and do break hardware so if you can't afford it don't do it, would have sufficed.

No where in my comments do I imply majorities and you are reading more into my comments than what are actually there.

Agreed and that was a poor comment on my behalf and I do apologise. But the second half of your statement here is very questionable at best. Any "average geek" can change fans fans, add after market cooling, etc. Doesn't "alternative" cooling go against your earlier implied corporate T&C?!?!

A vast percentage of "serious gamer" has at least the slightest OC on their system so they perceive they will gain greater gaming performance. Moreover, the gaming market is always after the OC versions of the Video Cards, etc and follow the OC trends to "consume" what products are performing the best. Basically they follow in the wake of the OC "testers", enthusiastically. So it is reasonable to infer that the OC are having a significant impact on market forces irrespective of the relative size of market base.

You have very valid points here and I never implied OC the "mum and dad", idiot proof (BIOS locked) machines in the "public sector", any OC with any form of self respect wouldn't even bother. But if it wasn't for the OC sector "pushing things till they break" adding a lot higher level of QC and or R&D to the hardware, many months/years before these products become "financially viable" to be purchased en-mass, they could arguably be a lot more vulnerable.

Any and all OC I know are "extremely" well aware of DATA management and have "significant" safeguards in place for any and all crucial DATA. On the serious benching runs they only use a "very specific" HDD which has a "stripped to bare essentials" OS on it and that is it.

You do make an excellent point about trying to deter the wannabes and ensure they have a damn good understanding of what they are doing and ability to pay for it before undertaking it. But you did come across in your earlier posts in an almost "condescending" manner towards those that OC and I feel another side had to be expressed.

Your obviously very intelligent and I hope you realise this is not "personal" (I'm an Aussie it would be a lot more obvious if it was).

 

And I am a grumpy ol' retired Master Sergeant so there would be no doubt from my side either! lol

Let's sort out a couple things - I am an advocate for the consumer and while I will defend "free enterprise" to the death, it will not be before defending the individual.

Where did I say, imply or otherwise suggest overclockers were wrongdoers? That, again, implies a moral decision - even in the Queen's English. If a user wants to OC their own computer, that's not a moral decision. Now if they do it on someone's else's computer without doing their homework first, well, then that might be morally wrong. But note tym said, "Most over clockers simply do it for bragging rights" for which my reply was, "And there's nothing wrong with that, if done right."

You would think, huh? First, note I said I "often" get to sell and install fans, and that was in reference cleaning up the aftermath of a botched OCing - It is generally because the machine was already in the shop and opened up that I install the fans as that takes about 2 minutes. But part of the problem is today, you don't have to be a geek to figure out how to "click on" overclocking. And that's often where the danger comes in.

Not if you don't take what I say out of context. As with OCing, it is fine, IF DONE RIGHT! But sadly, it is too frequently not. Setting aside leaks, many (most?) folks who implement water cooling, for example, fail to realize motherboard designers cluster the regulator and chipset circuits around the CPU socket for a darn good reason - to take advantage of the air flow from the CPU's HSF too. Yeah, the CPU may be sitting at 22°C, while the chipset and other heat critical devices are burning up. Or they set it all up, then ignore required inspections and maintenance, perhaps for months at a time - and then leaks develop. Or they don't consider that drives and graphics cards need some cool air coming in too.

I did not mean to sound condescending and I apologize if that is how it appeared - although to be truthful after re-reading, I don't see it. To me, I was just being frank, and to the point.

 

Well it's painfully obvious you don't suffer fools and I respect that. Frankly, I see a need for the OC sector in the market place and you may be surprised how big it actually is today and how much influence it has on market dynamics, for example:

http://gooc2009.gigabyte.com.tw/web/main.html?language=1

Normally the market "reaps" the benefits of the work from this sector maybe months or a year later and many of "the worlds best" work for or are funded by the industry leaders, for example Intel: h|cookie. One of the by products you get on "older" technology are "updated BIOS".

But with that said I don't suffer fools either and must agree that some systems are "way to easy" to OC without a clear understanding of what the user is doing and how to minimise the potential for a catastrophic outcome.

Got to go, cya Frank.

 

We now return control of this thread back to dlb! Sorry 'bout that.

 

Same sorry dbl, and you are a very worthy opponent for a debate Digerati.

 

It was a good discussion!