And so it begins...

After much hesitation and uncertainty about how best to go about it (if at all) I have finally installed my first Linux distro.

Off the bat I'm not too sure I prefer the look of SUSE over Ubuntu (I tried Ubuntu on a Live-CD) even though I'm using Gnome at the moment but I don't dislike it either. It looks good so far.

I've started with openSUSE10.2 (Linux Magazine cover disk) and intend to triple boot with SUSE, Ubuntu Edgy and XP once I have the time to set that up. I've been unable to find a solid reason to take one over the other so I'm triple booting initially so I can compare them and go with whichever I prefer. It seems the most sensible way to do things.

The only problem is, I've never used Linux before and am somewhat bewildered as to how it all works. If someone can point me in the direction of a good hand-holder for someone who has been using Windows for most of their computer-using life and has finally taken the plunge into Linux it would be much appreciated.

I feel rather pleased with myself about having this set up (though I've not checked my XP install yet to ensure it still works - if not I've got some big problems on my hands - I need that for work!) and am looking forwards to a long time using it - now I just need to get all my hardware working.

 

I'd be happy to help you
I use openSUSE myself (with KDE), so i should be able to handle most questions about it. General linux questions and 'i know how to do this in windows, but how do i do it in linux' questions are also welcome.
Setting up your hardware should be the easiest with openSUSE because of YaST. This is by far the best system administration tool in linux land.

 

A source partly of amusement and partly of frustration... You say "YaST...is by far the best..."
I've seen a fair few sites with user saying "YaST is terrible"
It seems ok to me though.

Anyway...

In Windows there is a feature that allows you to change the order of preferred networks, set network keys and so on, how would I go about doing the same thing in SUSE?



Also, I'd quite like to have a crack at using KDE too - how can I go about installing it in such a way that I can switch between it and Gnome until I have a preference (at which point I'll probably remove the other)

 

By 'best' i meant 'easiest to use' . YaST can indeed be very slow, especially when a lot of installation sources are set up. And when people tell you YaST is bad they usually mean the software installer/updater. I agree with those people, although it has improved a little in openSUSE 10.2.
Personally, i only use YaST for system configuration and smart for package management. But opinions differ...

Another remark here. It's best to completely remove the zen updater from the system (if installed). It just eats resources and recources and you really don't need it (smart can replace it if you want). To remove it, uninstall these packages and reboot:

Code:

libzypp-zmd-backend
zen-updater
ruby-zypp
rug
zmd
mono-core
mono-core-32bit
mono-data
mono-web
log4net
dbus-mono
glib-sharp2
gtk-sharp2

do not try to uninstall:
libzypp
libzypp-devel
these two libs have dependencies with half of Yast modules

I don't know what your particular network setup looks like, but i'll give it a shot.
The network key (i'm guessing wireless) can be set when configuring the interfaces, YaST should ask for it. As for the preferred network, maybe this post in the openSUSE mailinglist archive can help.

First of all, you have to install KDE. Open YaST and go to Software Management. Select 'Patterns' as the search mode and under 'Graphical Environments' select 'KDE Desktop Environment' and 'KDE Base System'. Click accept. If YaST informs you of conflicts and you are not sure what to do, ask me first .
When KDE is installed, reboot. If you are automatically logged back in to Gnome, log out. In the login window there should be a button 'Session Type', click it and select KDE. Now log in. Follow the same procedure to switch back to Gnome.
To make the change permanent, open YaST again, click System on the left and then '/etc/sysconfig editor' on the right. Browse to Desktop > window manager > default_wm and change it to your preference.

 

KDE installing now. It has said nothing about conflicts so far but I'll be sure to let you know if it changes its mind.
What's all this "reboot" stuff though - I thought Linux was meant to never need that.
(You know, just like MacOS never Crashes and neither get viruses *removes tongue from cheek*)

Yes to Wireless.
Configuring the interfaces? You've lost me there I'm afraid.

Nice point on Zen. I'll leave it on for now as the system is already nice and quick, and I would like to get a handle on things before I start pulling the system apart and putting new things in place. I know most of it is pretty straightforwards, but for now I'm trying to keep it simple until I have a system that works and which I can use properly.


As a side note...
I'm reading Introduction To Linux by Machtelt Garrels at the moment, so if I come across an answer to something I've asked you before you answer I'll let you know.

 

Until recently, Macs had no viruses.

Even the ones out now, take a certain amount of social engineering

As for never crashing, uninformed users can crash anything.

 

But even then, they can get them. Lack of threat doesn't equal immunity. The potential is there
Having said that - with a system looking as good as Apple boxes tend to look, I could forgive the sketchy marketing and just use one anyway - if I actually liked MacOS that is. Maybe I'll get one and stick a Linux install on it.

I've known some incredibly knowledgeable users crash MacOS too. Granted it was usually using certain software that was more prone to making everything grind to a halt - but it can be done.

Anyway - enough about MacOS...


I've got KDE installed and am just about to reboot and see if it has all worked properly.

 

Linux on a Mac...thats actually funny. Not to mention ludicrous, considering the premium you pay on their hardware

Inferior OS to replace superior.

Unix is much more mature, tried and true.

THat said...I suspect if you like Linux enough, you will dumping RPM based distributions very soon.

Join the dark side, and see that its better

I dropped Suse like a bad habit once I got a real taste of dependency hell.

I'm curious to see how the KDE install went.

 

I said enough about MacOS haha.
Expensive but shiny/pretty...

Anyway, I'm posting from KDE now. The install seems to have gone well. In fact, it went pretty much exactly as erikske described. Probably a good sign.

 

Is Compiz working with it?

 

Ok that just went over my head...
I've been using Linux for a grand total of less than a day now. I have no idea what Compiz is, how it should work, or whether it would be unusual for it to work under KDE.

A bit of input and I might be able to answer that for you.

 

You are in for a treat.

http://en.opensuse.org/Compiz

Screenshots:

http://www.linuxedge.org/?q=node/59

Check the Desktop thread in the Lounge. Or the Sabayon thread in here. I use Beryl, but Compiz can do the same things.

 

Ah I've seen a picture of this before - I'll be having a go at installing that sometime soon. I've half decided to make this install a "play until it breaks" one - I'll probably make a real wreck of it - and then I'll format the Linux partition and start over again. I did that with Windows 95 (and 98 when I upgraded to that) and became rather comfortable with it in the process.


There were a few settings I made at install time that I could do with changing too. No doubt I could do them from within Linux, but I'd have to redo them when I reinstall afresh anyway.

I'll check the desktop thread now.

 

You're right, i just told you to reboot because that's the easy way . Most of the time logging out and back in will be enough, but sometimes you have to switch runlevels or reload certain modules (which is a little more complicated than rebooting). As for the KDE installation, i wasn't sure if a reboot was necessary, so i chose the safe option of a reboot.

Start YaST and navigate to Network Devices > Network Card. In the this screen make sure the 'traditional method (ifup)' is selected and press next.
If you're lucky all the network cards are detected. If not, tell me. Select the card you wish to set up and click Edit. In this screen you have two tabs. The first tab contains the firewall and device activation settings. Set the firewall zone to the correct setting for your network (external should be fine). Ignore the second tab, unless you have to specify custom dns servers or a static IP, and click next. You will only get a second window on your wireless connection. Fill in all the blanks here, they should be understandable (and YaST has this nice help text on the left). Click Next. If all interfaces are configured click next again to activate your networks.
Note: pressing cancel will close the configuration dialog. You have to press back to return to the initial screen.
Note 2: as you can post here, your network is probably functioning. Try not to destroy connectivity by making incorrect settings.


I would choose Beryl over Compiz. It has more features and eyecandy :cool
But most important for you, there is an easy install guide on opensuse.org. (The procedure involves installing graphics drivers, which might be slightly more difficult)

 

Well, something broke.

I'm not sure why, but my Wireless is now out of action.
Both of my cards were detected, I selected the wireless one and went ahead as you described, and now it has given up the ghost.
I'm not at all sure what has happened, but now I keep getting a message that says "NetworkManager is not running" whenever I mouse over or click on the tray icon.
I've tried everything I could think of (not much) and have given up for tonight.


On another note, I seem to have my ATi drivers running ok, though since Dell in their wisdom decided not to bother telling me the make of screen in my laptop, I can't get the proper settings for it. The nearest I can get has a refresh rate 15Hz too fast.

I'm toying with the idea of starting over again at the weekend - this fits nicely with the "play until it breaks" method of learning mentioned earlier so I don't mind (though the time to clear it off and reinstall will be a bit of a pain)
That way I'll be able to set a few things up better at install and get things right quicker once it is on. Eventually I should have a good basic system to work from. (I assume you can back up a configuration in such a way that you can just step back to a stable and working starting point when things go awry, right?)

 

Beryl has more features and eyecandy enabled by default, but no, it doesnt really have more features.

 

Did you select 'Traditional Method with ifup' in the network configuration? The NetworkManager isn't such a great tool. With NetworkManager disabled, close the tray icon, open a console and type 'sudo /etc/init.d/network restart' without quotes. Enter your root password when prompted. If your network still refuses to work or if any errors are outputted, post the output of the command here.

This would be in YaST under System > System Backup

 

Ok...

I've got 2 network cards...
10/100 Ethernet connected to a wired/wireless router.
Wireless.

When I started up today I got a wired connection and was able to view the last couple of replies to this thread. After that I tried what you suggested, close the KNetworkManager tray icon, opened console and entered 'sudo /etc/init.d/network restart' without quotes.
There followed a few lines of code and I was returned to the prompt.

The nearest I got to an error was this line...

Other than that, everything looked ok.

I would copy and paste the entire output, but since following that procedure, I no longer have a wired network access either - so I'm posting this from another machine in the same room.
(I've rebooted and turned my wireless card on and off a few times now)

Any suggestions?


I've also come across a few other problems in the last few hours and I'm being asked for passwords I never set - so I'm probably going to uninstall SuSE and put it back on so I can start from scratch.
I'll backup my install at each step too so I don't lose anything when it inevitably goes belly up.
The intention being to take all the advice I've had and progress I've made in getting a working and stable system set up, and apply it all in one go to get a working system (networking, monitor, 3d card, an so on) that I can start to work with properly.

I won't be getting started on that until the weekend (probably Sunday) so until then I'll be sticking at it with the current install.

 

Right, after running that sudo line, I tried a few times to get a web page up with no success.
I sent that last response from the other machine, came back to my SuSE one and I've no idea how, but apparently one of my network cards is now working. The KNetworkManager tray icon still says NetworkManager is not running, I've got no idea which card I'm connected with, or how, but I'm posting this over it now.

Before I start trying to find out (as it will probably drop the connection when I do) I'm going to do a few other things, and one of them is to copy/paste the results of that 'sudo' line I ran...

I'm not sure if this gives you any helpful information, but that's everything it output.

 

From that output i can tell both network cards are detected. To find out why the network isn't working, you'll have to run two more commands.
Open a console and switch to root (that is: type su, enter and enter your root password). First run ifconfig and paste the output here. Now run iwconfig and also paste the output here.
Note: ifconfig and iwconfig may output information you don't want to share (network keys / ip adresses). Do not remove them from the output, as this will make troubleshooting harder. Instead replace it with <IP> or something like that.

By the way: the SuSEfirewall2 message is perfectly normal.

 

Okay... Apologies for the long delay in replying, I've had far too much work (and other nonsense) on my hands to be messing around with Linux, but I've got a few minutes before I have to call a client so thought I'd switch over to Linux and run the commands you asked for.

I ran ifconfig and got the following output

Code:

eth0      Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr <MAC>
          inet addr:<IP>  Bcast:<IP>  Mask:255.255.255.0
          inet6 addr: <LONG STRING OF ALPHANUMERIC AND : HERE> Scope:Link
          UP BROADCAST NOTRAILERS RUNNING MULTICAST  MTU:1500  Metric:1
          RX packets:2343 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
          TX packets:4328 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
          collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000
          RX bytes:2726050 (2.5 Mb)  TX bytes:482281 (470.9 Kb)
          Interrupt:209

eth1      Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr <MAC>
          UP BROADCAST MULTICAST  MTU:1500  Metric:1
          RX packets:3157 errors:2 dropped:2 overruns:0 frame:0
          TX packets:597 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
          collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000
          RX bytes:0 (0.0 b)  TX bytes:156 (156.0 b)
          Interrupt:201 Base address:0xe000 Memory:dfcfd000-dfcfdfff

lo        Link encap:Local Loopback
          inet addr:127.0.0.1  Mask:255.0.0.0
          inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host
          UP LOOPBACK RUNNING  MTU:16436  Metric:1
          RX packets:40 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
          TX packets:40 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
          collisions:0 txqueuelen:0
          RX bytes:2608 (2.5 Kb)  TX bytes:2608 (2.5 Kb)

Then ran iwconfig and got the following output

Code:

lo        no wireless extensions.

eth1      unassociated  ESSID:"<Network SSID listed correctly>"
          Mode:Managed  Channel=0  Access Point: Not-Associated
          Bit Rate:0 kb/s   Tx-Power=20 dBm   Sensitivity=8/0
          Retry limit:7   RTS thr:off   Fragment thr:off
          Encryption key:off
          Power Management:off
          Link Quality:0  Signal level:0  Noise level:0
          Rx invalid nwid:0  Rx invalid crypt:1  Rx invalid frag:0
          Tx excessive retries:0  Invalid misc:0   Missed beacon:0

eth0      no wireless extensions.

sit0      no wireless extensions.

I realised my wireless was off at this point so activated (key combination Fn+F2) it and ran the command again.
The code output was identical to the first run of iwconfig.


I've edited out anything that looks like it would be useful to someone trying to breach my network (not that it is likely, or that I couldn't stop them getting in eventually anyway - but still, seemed the sensible thing to do)

Anyway, time to call my client so Linux is back off (for now) while I pull my work up and then I'll have it back on later.
Look forward to reading your reply to this, the sooner I can get Linux working properly on my system, the better.

Thanks again.



[EDIT]
Just thought I'd add, I'm connected and posting over the wired connection.

 

eth1 seems to be your wireless card and is detected correctly. A quick breakdown of the important lines in iwconfig output:

eth1 unassociated ESSID:"<Network SSID listed correctly>"
This means your card is not connected to your access point.

Encryption key: off
This means your network key is turned off. If your LAN uses one, this is causing the above 'unassociated' error. To set your key via the command line, type: iwconfig eth1 key <key in hex format> (as root). The card should now connect. If it does not, type /etc/init.d/network restart (still as root).

 

The breakdown is appreciated. The worry I have with all this, is that I could get a working system with no idea as to just why it is working (which would make it tricky to maintain)

Ok, how do I go about finding out my network key in hex?

Am I right in thinking that once I set the key in the command line that it is set for good with no need to re-type it to connect each time?

 

Ok, I had a shot at using an ascii-hex translator, fed the result into the iwconfig eth1 key <hex key> command, ran the /etc/init.d...... command and I'm now posting from linux, via wifi. I think it might be safe to say it worked

If I wasn't playing with the idea of putting Damn Small Linux onto a really old machine for which I only have a 10/100 ethernet pcmcia card, I'd put away my network cable for the long term.

All that remains to be seen now, is if the settings for the network will stay so I can connect with ease next time. It looks promising this far though.

Thanks


Ok, so without resorting to translators next time, is there an easy way (or a more orthodox way) of finding out the hex version of my network key? For example, if I didn't have a way to translate the network key directly to hex myself, would there be a way to find it?

 

There is . The hex format is standard because most keys contain non-ASCII symbols to make them harder to break.

You can use a plain text key by using the s: prefix.
example: iwconfig eth1 key s:mykey

More info about all these options can be found in the iwconfig manual. (type 'man iwconfig' in a console or 'man:iwconfig' in the Konqueror address bar)

 

Ah I see, in that case I'll probably change the network to a hex network key (once I've got my Linux setup working the way I want) so I have some non-ascii symbols in there.
I do think it's a bit pointless in a house where I can only find one other wireless network nearby - not exactly a lot of wireless users around - but there can't be any harm in making the security as tough as I can.

I got a magazine yesterday about network security - there's a section about breaking into your own network. Having tough security might even make for some fun games.


I'll definitely have a look at the manual this evening when I get back out of windows (after I finish my work) and onto Linux again.