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Gun Safety

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Fred_G, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    As a few of you know, I am a gun owner. And I thought that if many of you are not, some gun safety info might be in order, if you are at a friend's house who has a gun, or if you encounter one in the wild.

    Let's get 2 terms defined. ND, and AD. That is Negligent Discharge, and Accidental Discharge. ND is due to operator error. And AD is due to a gun malfunction. If you have an AD, fix your gun, or go to a Gunsmith, and pay to have it fixed.

    A modern firearm cannot simply 'go off'. They require a human to shoot. Now, I live alone, no kids, few visitors that I screen. So, I can leave loaded guns around. YMMV. If you have kids, get a gun safe. Be proactive in how you keep your guns. Most gun accidents are caused by ND. Meaning someone was not being safe. Kids and loaded guns don't mix. Use your noggin. :major

    Here is a link for some rules. Honestly, if you follow these rules, you will never have an ND, and if you do, you will just wind up with a hole in a wall. You must follow them by the letter.

    http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp

    Be safe in whatever you do. ;)
     
  2. sibeer

    sibeer MajorGeek

    I think this situation falls under "Know your target and what is beyond".
    Probably thirty five years ago my wife's cousin was out hunting with his dad and uncle. I think he was twelve. His dad was scoped on an elk and was waiting for it to move from the trees. When it did, the kid who for some reason was crouched down in front of the adults, got excited and jumped up... just when his dad squeezed the trigger. He was hit in the back of the head and died almost instantly. I remember the family was devistated, and as you would expect they never got over it.
    Hind sight is 20/20.
     
  3. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    That is sad. If a child was crouched in front of him, the gun was not pointed in a safe direction. Very sad to hear about something like that. And hard to be aware of what is close to you when looking through a scope. Nothing should be inbetween you and your target that you do not mind putting a hole in.
     
  4. silas

    silas MajorGeek

    friend and i use to shoot back in hs. little 22. half day of school so obviously video game time with a total of 4. i sat in game chair on ground. got up to pick bud up. another friend sat down in my chair. 5 min later friends all looking for me. saying

    Blank. got shot. we live in quite town. i rush there. and see ambulance leaving. then my other bf in cop car. he was cleaning gun and stood up to put into case. it went off. then went through chair i was in 5 min b4 that happen. we all bfs still. but he

    But the one who got shot. made hole in lung and barely miss spine and heart. he died twice. but they brought him back. he missing lung tho.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2012
  5. hrlow2

    hrlow2 MajorGeek

    "encounter one in the wild"? rolleyes
    Do they run solo or in packs? :confused
    If solo, I would probably try to coax it close and try to tame it. ;):wave

    Sorry. Little humor for a very serious topic.
    Was trained in firearm safety before I even went into the Army.
    Always know what is downrange from you.
    Always assume that there is a round in the chamber, and act accordingly.
     
  6. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    I have seen them by themselves and in packs. Mine seem to run in packs. And the pack expands... I can't stop it. :-D

    I put the 'gun in the wild' part in, just in case someone on the forum came across a gun, and had no experience with them. :-D
     
  7. Mimsy

    Mimsy Superior Imperial Queen of the MG Games Forum

    While I personally don't care for guns, they don't particularly frighten me. They don't shoot people unless other people make them do it. So a gun in the hands of a person I don't know makes me nervous, unless of course that person is wearing a uniform that clearly indicates they've been trained in gun safety.
     
  8. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek


    What does the uniform do? :-D

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...010DB84665B5441892B301&view=detail&FORM=VIRE4

    :-D:-D Someone missed training day.


    I have to say, that man kept his cool. He was trained in that. But, he got Glocked. Trigger finger off the trigger when you holster...
     
  9. Mimsy

    Mimsy Superior Imperial Queen of the MG Games Forum

    Apparently it lulls innocent by-standers into a false sense of security... :p
     
  10. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    And that is why I made this thread. He did not follow some gun safety rules. The gun was pointed accidentally in a safe direction. Nobody got hurt but the speaker.

    He did fail, 'keep your finger off the trigger'. I do have to give props to that officer, I think he was shot in the foot, but checked on the kids first. I bet he never makes that mistake again. And also why I started this thread, cause evidently all of you were not raised up having guns. :major
     
  11. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek


    'Instant death'. Hmm, like the car you drive? Like a kid in a pool or pond? Can you show me 50 cases where someone used a legally concealed weapon to shoot someone illegally? Thread drift is fine with me, but if you want to debate the 2A, perhaps another forum would be more appropriate. ;)

    32,885 people were killed in auto accidents in 2010. Maybe you worry about the wrong things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year :cool
     
  12. Serious Sam

    Serious Sam Corporal

    Obviously they weren't "well trained" then, were they??

    Having owned guns for over 30 years also raising kids thru most of those years (and untold years of carpentry work) no accidents here & all my appendages are intact as are my kids' :major
     
  13. BILLMCC66

    BILLMCC66 Bionic Belgian

    They have some strange slants on fire arms here in Belgium.
    As long as you have a license for short arms you may carry it concealed or open but a rifle must be carried in a case unless in a safe environment (thats how they word it) a shotgun must be carried broken at all times when not in use.
    I have just had my license revoked because i have not renewed it for 5 years due to my disability and have donated my 9mm Browning to the local gun club.
     
  14. hrlow2

    hrlow2 MajorGeek

    But you still go to a doctor who "practices" medicine?
    I prefer someone that doesn't have to practice.
    Been around firearms a long time.
    Only things I have ever shot was what I intended to hit.
    No accidents or unintentional misfires.
    No unwanted casualties.
     
  15. shnerdly

    shnerdly MajorGeek

    On a percentage basis, the number of people you choose to call "stupid" are an extreme minority when you consider the total number of people that own and carry guns and don't "screw up". So based on an extreme minoritys inability to handle a gun safely despite their training we should treat everyone as "stupid"?

    I do carry a gun when I feel the need but believe me, there is nothing casual about it. When that gun is not in my physical possession, it's NOT loaded. In fact it's kept in a locked box on a high shelf in a closet and the clip is not with it. I would be afraid of someone finding it in a drawer and being able to use it against me or worse yet one of my Grandkids might find it. If your gun is sitting in a drawer, loaded, it is an accident waiting to happen.
     
  16. hrlow2

    hrlow2 MajorGeek

    Now THAT is gun "safety"
     
  17. hrlow2

    hrlow2 MajorGeek

    Glad that you don't hunt with me?
    I'm just as glad not to have somebody so uncaring about keeping a loaded weapon someplace where a child can reach it as a neighbor.
    Best study your own "safety" practices before you start condemning others.
     
  18. Serious Sam

    Serious Sam Corporal

    Here again, that's not "well trained", I think a better term would be well taught. I spent almost 20 yrs as a contractor, 30 yrs. as a gun owner, well taught people don't have "stupid moments" when it comes to life threatening situations, be it a power tool or a gun. I think this goes back to your anti carry stance actually although I may be wrong. Think about it, well trained or taught is just that, those that screw up haven't been well trained or taught obviously (IMO).

    I keep a loaded gun in my house at all times, I also have a child in the house that has been taught the importance of gun safety. I have had him handle the gun & taught him the usage & principles of the guns I have, I did the same thing with my now adult child, they have both been "well taught" and not lectured on the subject. I remember going to high school & kids having gun racks in their pickups WITH guns in them & no one ever got shot there. Then again, those were simpler times to say the least.
     
  19. hrlow2

    hrlow2 MajorGeek

    And,gloozit, you obviously haven't read all posts.
    Primarily where I stated that you should "Always assume there is a round in the chamber and act accordingly".(post 6)
    Not a tip?
     
  20. hrlow2

    hrlow2 MajorGeek

    And that remark about preferring somebody that doesn't have to practice (post 18) was about Doctors in the first line, which was conveniently left off of the quote in post 21.

    Last I will be in this thread.
    Feeling like an ICBM ready for launch.
     
  21. Serious Sam

    Serious Sam Corporal

    I don't "know it all", but I know what I know, and my lack of accidents is not an accident. You bring up "friendly fire", do you REALLY think they were that well trained (taught)??? A freakin pencil can be "dangerous" if so chosen, so can crossing the street. I'm done here too.
     
  22. Mimsy

    Mimsy Superior Imperial Queen of the MG Games Forum

    I am quite certain that no one has ever shot anyone with an unloaded gun.
     
  23. Mimsy

    Mimsy Superior Imperial Queen of the MG Games Forum

    Yes, again. Because when you communicate in writing, semantics, grammar, and choice of words, are absolutely essential to conveying what you mean to say.

    In this case, you meant to say that you believe that the vast majority of gun accidents happen because the person handling the gun was careless, for example they started cleaning it before checking to make absolutely sure it's not loaded. It would never occur to me to blame the gun for such an accident, anymore than I would blame a car for a fatal car accident. It's the irresponsible person handling the gun or driving the car that is to blame.

    And just as with cars, it's an over-simplification to assume that just because a small minority of owners are irresponsible with them, that means everyone is. Reality is not that simple. the vast majority of drivers are responsible and sober, the vast majority of gun owners in the are careful and responsible. It is unfair to them to treat them the way you would the utter moron who started cleaning a loaded gun, whoever that was.
     
  24. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek


    Cauzin I live alone. And my friends know how to keep their booger hook off the bang stick. An unloaded gun is an expensive and unusual paperweight. Of course barring the access to said gun by children or people who don't know how to handle a gun.

    "What one person considers safe, isn't to another. That's why there are so many accidents.
    And that's why it's dangerous to carry them around, too."

    How is it dangerous to carry a gun? I have a proper holster, made specifically for for my gun buy a guy in Texas. The trigger is covered by the holster.

    You seem to be the one saying how guns are dangerous. Well, so are anvils, if you are a a Warner Bros yote. :-D

    Good point about safety tips. What kind of gun would you like to know how to clear? (unload, and verify physically and visually that the gun is not loaded)

    A respect for guns is a good thing. In my opinion, many people are not taught the proper gun safety rules. Reading safety rules and such is important, but a knowledgeable person teaching you, watching you, and correcting you is a very good thing. Can't do all of that in an online forum.

    Is there any particular type of gun you would like to know how to clear?

    And saying me carrying a gun, or having guns in my home is unsafe is why I have a bit of an attitude. I am licensed to carry a firearm, in 33 or so states. I have owned and shot a variety of guns. Revolvers, semi auto pistols, semi auto shotguns, pump shotguns, bolt action rifles, semi auto rifles... Never had an ND or AD. Have I made mistakes? Sure, loaded .40 in my .45 ACP. Gun fired, brass jammed. But guess where that gun was pointed? Downrange. So, my error, was taken care of by basic gun safety. It was a well learned lesson. Be very careful when shooting different caliber weapons.

    Guns are no more dangerous than any other tool. Misuse of most power tools, and many household items can cause death or injury. If proper rules are followed, there is no danger of injury.

    And this brings out another issue. If you are new to guns, or want to buy a gun, look around for a gun range. Some rent guns, and will have someone show you how to shoot the gun. Hands on training. You can try different guns, see what you like, and buy one if you find one you like. Many ranges and gun clubs offer basic handgun courses, defensive shotgun, rifle, whatever you want to shoot. If you were not raised with guns, that would be a good way to get some good instruction on proper safety habits.

    Gloozit does have a good point, there is nothing like proper training. This thread was just to raise awareness to people who are not really 'gun people'.

    Just like driving a car, you have to be aware of where your gun is pointed. You can't just let go of the steering wheel of your car for 5 mins, and you can't ignore the basic gun safety rules.

    :cool
     
  25. Mimsy

    Mimsy Superior Imperial Queen of the MG Games Forum

    Facetious, this one is. :p

    That's not really what you said. You made a large number of generalizing statements filled with hyperbole, and you made no efforts to clarify that you weren't referring to all gun owners everywhere when you started talking about how carrying a gun is very dangerous, and that "lots and "many" people get shot by accident every year. (backing that up with statistics would have made your argument look better, by the way). If it was a mistake to read what you posted and assume you meant it the way you said it, obviously I made a mistake.

    That statement is hilarious primarily because I'm probably the only person in this entire thread who has never even held a real gun. LOL

    I don't want one, I have turned down offers to learn how to use them because I dislike them on sight. But I fail to see how that gives me the right to lecture those who own guns, or demand that these same people prove to me that they can be trusted with one by rattling off whatever gun safety practices they have learned. I don't have the right to lecture gun owners on how to be safe with their guns, I have no choice but to assume that if someone says they know basic gun safety principles they are telling the truth. You're in the same boat. You can trust that when someone says they practices good gun safety, they mean it. Or you can question them and demand proof, and in so doing, implicitly call them a liar.
     
  26. hrlow2

    hrlow2 MajorGeek

  27. ASUS

    ASUS MajorGeek

  28. DavidGP

    DavidGP MajorGeeks Forum Administrator - Grand Pooh-Bah Staff Member

    Gun safety a great topic and one that deserves a great deal of press, but I have to personally say and this is from a gun neutral country as in UK, is that GUN = Death no matter how you portray it.

    However I do believe that we have a given right to protect ourselves and UK needs to wake up to this and stop bowing to the EUHR
     
  29. hrlow2

    hrlow2 MajorGeek

    af92ee12edc8bcefe9b20fbbc4b240ae.jpg

    squirrel_with_machine_gun_weapons-s450x330-43676-580.jpg

    Even the animals here know how to shoot.
     
  30. BILLMCC66

    BILLMCC66 Bionic Belgian

    This argument seems to revolve around whether guns are dangerous and i think to be fair no one has disputed that fact.
    Remember "guns don't kill people,people kill people".
    I served in the military for a large part of my life and guns came as second nature to me but that did not make me complacent about the danger involved with handling weapons.

    A short story.
    I was a member of the Royal Marines shooting team for a few years and every year we would go to the NRA championships where all the branches of the military were represented in the Queens medal challenge.

    http://www.rnrmra.org/Queens_Medal.htm

    During the run up to the championship we would use our own ranges,we were on this particular day sharing the range with Navy personnel one of which was a four ring Captain who had an AD now in the military that is a chargeable offense but because the range warden was only a Sergeant he was not senior enough to charge this officer because you need to be the same rank or higher so he had to charge himself.
    This is just to illustrate that accidents DO happen and the rule "Safety first" must always be adhered to.
    I could spend hours here telling horror stories of recruits turning up range to tell the NCO that his automatic weapon has jammed or droppin live grenades in the throwing pit.
    Again no one is perfect and accidents do happen.
     
  31. Mimsy

    Mimsy Superior Imperial Queen of the MG Games Forum

    No one is saying that. The fact that you persist in assuming the worst and then accuse the people in this thread of it is the main reason for the attitude towards you, that you are complaining so much about. Treat people with courtesy, and you get courtesy back. Lecture arrogantly and condescendingly, and no one will consider you worth listening to.
     
  32. BILLMCC66

    BILLMCC66 Bionic Belgian

    That is the sort of language that sounds to be discourteous and is totally unnecessary.
    If you put your points succinctly and in a reasonable manner they will be treated with respect and answered the same way.
    Several views have been put forward and they are firmly held beliefs of the person posting (yours included) so we are in a democracy here at MGs where everybody is entitled to be heard and treated with the respect that we would wish to receive.

    One thing i can promise if this thread continues in the same manner it will be closed and that is a loss to those who are really interested in it.
     
  33. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    Asus, the barrel falling off the gun was funny! :-D
     
  34. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    Guns can be dangerous if used improperly. "Take a class", "retake a class"... It is not dangerous to carry a gun. Perhaps you cannot grasp simple skills and demonstrate some motor skills to safely manipulate and operate a rather simple tool.

    Some of us can. :-D
     
  35. hrlow2

    hrlow2 MajorGeek

    I believe everyone will concur that this is NOT safe.

    374407_366558616708781_324673527563957_1242026_1470904298_n.jpg
     
  36. Serious Sam

    Serious Sam Corporal

  37. Mimsy

    Mimsy Superior Imperial Queen of the MG Games Forum

    All right. I admit that it is possible to kill a person with an unloaded gun, if said person is willing to hold still long enough for you to beat him/her to death with it. :p That smiley there means I'm joking, by the way. If you prefer to interpret it as trolling, that's on you, not on me.

    Oh and hrlow isn't a "she", he's a "he". :p

    Because up until that paragraph, that's not what you were saying. If that was your point all along, you need to work on how to clearly express yourself in writing. Spelling out your point is a good start.

    I pointed out before that your posts were vague in the extreme, carelessly worded, and phrased in ways that either makes them nothing but jokes that should not be taken seriously, or rude accusations that are deliberately calculated to provoke those you address. since you were so adamant that guns are not a laughing matter, that leaves only one possible interpretation of your posts.
     
  38. Serious Sam

    Serious Sam Corporal

    Those that are well trained or taught know this & don't let it happen, it's 2nd nature. You're ex military, a gun owner & whatever else, I don't see why you are so dead set on arguing about all this. I've been carrying before it was even legal, never had an accident or mishap, I'd say in the 30+ yrs of doing so that should say something. I've pulled a gun twice in my life in dangerous situations, both times the other person had no clue I was armed & both times I never fired my weapon but was READY to.
     
  39. shnerdly

    shnerdly MajorGeek

    Gun safety revolves around common sense developed through education and training.

    Accidents do happen that involve guns but that doesn't make every person that chooses to carry a gun stupid, careless or dangerous. To make such an assumption implies to me that the individual expressing the assumption doubts his or her own ability and thinks that personal doubt should apply to everyone.

    One can use cleverly formed witticisms to claim that unloaded guns kill and all that but the fact is, it's the people that cause the problem, not the gun.

    A Gun is an inanimate object. It didn't invent, manufacture or assemble itself, it is incapable of loading itself from an unloaded condition and it is incapable of discharging itself. The only possible danger a gun is able to convey rests with the skill and aptitude of the person that last had or currently has possession of the gun.
     
  40. Phantom

    Phantom Brigadier Britches

    Yep, stupid, ignorant 'sheeple' are the leading cause of death in the world - not guns, war, disease,etc.
     
  41. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    "Let's start with, some jerk pulls a gun on you and tries to rob you. What do you do? Shoot him? With him drawn down on you, How are you going to get your gun? And when you try to pull it out and he pulls his trigger, what then? A carried gun can protect, IF you are given time to react, and in many of those cases, IF you have time to react, you have time to get the hell out of there.
    "

    Having the gun allows me to use it or not, as the circumstances are. Just because you have a gun does not mean you have to pull it if you are in a situation where you will most likely be shot going for your gun.

    "Same thing with a car jacking, will you be able to pull that gun, without getting your head blown off? Or shooting yourself, in the hurry?"

    Same thing. Gun is an option. You know, many people have several tools in their toolbox. A hammer is a great tool. But it does not help much when you need a wrench.

    "How about those loaded guns, not in a safe or without trigger locks? What happens if some neighborhood kid decides to break in while you are out? It happens."

    I am not responsible for the possible future acts of a criminal. By that logic, we should all have to keep our cars in a safe. You know, incase some kid steals it for a joyride. Happens you know. ;)

    "What about if one of your friends decides to look at one of your loaded guns while you are out of the room? It happens. You can't control another's actions."

    How does that make the gun dangerous? It is the improper handling of a gun that causes problems. I live alone, and all my friends know how to handle a gun. But, out of respect for each other, we do not handle another person's gun without permission. Owner safes the gun, person looking at gun makes sure it is safe.

    "Are you so good, you never make mistakes? Because if you are, you need to get those genes cloned."

    If you were to examine the rules of gun safety, you will notice they are layered to minimize the damage if someone makes a mistake. If you keep the gun pointed in a safe direction, if it goes off, nobody is hurt. If you keep your finger off the trigger, the gun can't go off by itself. If you follow those simple things, the gun is safe.

    Some interesting facts I found on the Google.

    "Number of Privately Owned Firearms
    The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in the United States is 270,000,000" http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

    "Percentage breakdown by US gun deaths in 2004, by type:

    16,750 suicides (56% of all U.S. gun deaths)
    11,624 homicides (40%)
    649 unintentional shootings, 311 from legal intervention and 235 from undetermined intent (4%)."
    http://twocrabs.blogs.com/2crabs/2007/04/gun_violence_st.html

    That seems to be a pretty low number of accidental deaths for a country having so many dangerous guns.

    "Car Crash Stats: There were nearly 6,420,000 auto accidents in the United States in 2005. The financial cost of these crashes is more than 230 Billion dollars. 2.9 million people were injured and 42,636 people killed. About 115 people die every day in vehicle crashes in the United States -- one death every 13 minutes.

    In 2003 there were 6,328,000 car accidents in the US. There were 2.9 million injuries and 42,643 people were killed in auto accidents.

    In 2002, there were an estimated 6,316,000 car accidents in the USA. There were about 2.9 million injuries and 42,815 people were killed in auto accidents in 2002." http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

    Seems cars are a bit more dangerous. I was at the indoor range today. In a small area, there were 5 other people shooting. I counted 4 rifles, 9 handguns, 2 shotguns if I recall correctly. So around 15 guns, loaded ones, being fired. Nobody was hurt, nobody got shot at.

    My point is that, if used safely, a gun is no more dangerous than anything else that could, if used improperly, endanger people.

    Owning and carrying a gun do not make you immune from crime. I have not tried to say carrying a gun is for everybody. You are comparing apples to oranges. Perhaps I should not have mentioned carrying a gun in this thread. But, from a safety standpoint, a holstered gun, in a PROPER holster, is yet another layer in gun safety that prevents the gun from 'just going off'.

    I found out while at the range, I get Monday off. Bossman was shooting with me, and said he was going to be out of town Monday, so I could stay home if I wanted to. Cool. Bossman left, to go buy a gun. :-D

    Evil, unsafe dangerous things, just lying on the ground... (Referring to piture I attached).
     

    Attached Files:

  42. shnerdly

    shnerdly MajorGeek

    Regarding carry permits and crime rates, two or three years ago there was an article about the Sheriffs Association for the Detroit, MI. area counties. They had lobbied against the then proposed Michigan Gun Carry Permit law citing that the crime rate would skyrocket if everyone were allowed to carry a gun. A year or two later they announced that they were baffled that the crime rate in the Detroit area had actually dropped since the Carry Permit law. I remember the article because I was astonished that any Government group would acknowledge such a thing.

    I tried to find the the article but was unable. I'm fairly sure I saw it on the MG Off Base or Way Off Base News.
     
  43. Serious Sam

    Serious Sam Corporal

    Ironic, I'm almost certain Gloozit lives in Michigan
     
  44. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

  45. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    This is a bit OT, but interesting.

    From the PDF " Even so, for the time period of 2004-2006, the non-CPL population
    committed about 47 major crimes for every one committed by a CPL. To interpret this
    another way, had the non-CPL population been as law-abiding as the CPL population,
    there would have been a 96.2% reduction in the number of FBI major crimes committed
    for the years 2004-2006.
    32"

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...o8m7CQ&usg=AFQjCNHmLL3tDDWjWN9-Xud-ESynTZA5jQ
     
  46. shnerdly

    shnerdly MajorGeek

    In the Detroit area there is evidently an Association of the Metro County Sheriffs departments. The article I saw was about statistics from that Sheriffs Association although the article you found speaks the same truths.
     
  47. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    Sorry, misread the post Shnerdly.
     
  48. shnerdly

    shnerdly MajorGeek

    No worries, It won't drive me to be one of the statistics you quoted earlier.

    OT here but have you ever been to the Machine Gun Shoot at Knob Creek KY.? I've never been there but I have been planning to. They got rained out this year.
     
  49. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    Nope. But I have seen video. :drool:drool I would love to shoot a full auto rifle! Don't want to own one, cause I would go broke buying ammo for it. :-D

    http://youtu.be/8CiCgRaKI5I

    Thinking about a suppressor for one of my rifles... Not sure how much all the stamps cost.
     
  50. hrlow2

    hrlow2 MajorGeek

    Fred:
    Remember. If you ever do fire one on full auto, it will pull from low left to upper right at an angle.
     

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