I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge protec

I go through a router about every 3 years. When I stopped in to buy another one, the salesman asked if I have it plugged into a surge protector (which I do) and he said "that's why". According to him routers seem to have problems with surge protectors and will burn them ojut after awhile. It doesn't make sense to me but I figured I'd ask the guys here about it. So, is there any proof to this? :confused

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

I have a router and a surge protector. Both are made by Belkin. What's that say about what he says?

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

How long have you had them?

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

I'm using the same Linksys router since June 2004. It's always been plugged into a surge suppressor until about 3 months ago when I bought an UPS. Now it is plugged into that.
I guess my model doesn't know it isn't supposed to be plugged into a surge protector.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

I think the salesman is either misinformed or just wants to sell more routers!

There is nothing in a surge protector that could harm electronic equipment. Until a surge arrives, it is as if the protector is not even in line. When a surge arrives, the high voltage is shunted to ground until the voltage drops again.

The one caveat is is that the protector may give you a false sense of security. The protection devices will fail after an undetermined number of surges. Many protectors give no indication that this has occurred.

For something as valuable as a computer, I would install a good UPS. Test it occasionally to make sure the battery is good.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

I use a surge protector on all my sensitive electronics. I have never had a problem, or heard of them causing problems.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

An answer is found in underlying reasons why damage happens. A surge does damage because that appliance is a best connection to earth. A protector adjacent to an appliance only connects a surge from one wire to all others. It now has more wires to find earth destructively via the router.

That protector does not cause damage. Only gives a surge even more paths to find earth destructively. Effective protectors are connected to earth; not to a safety ground. That means a low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meter') connection to earth.

Many will confuse safety ground with earth ground. The electrical difference is major.

A protector must connect to earth with no sharp wire bends, no splices, wire separated from other non-earthing wires, not inside metallic conduit, and other important requirements. A term 'low impedance' says many times over why the protector at a wall receptacle is not earthed. And why protectors at the service entrance have been so effective for over 100 years.

How to make a protector better? Increase distance between a protector and the router. In facilities that never suffer surge damage, a protector is located up to 50 meters distant from electronics. Increased distance (increased impedance) also increases router protection. But most important is a distance (as short as possible) from that protector to the earth ground rod.

Now, what exactly in the router has failed? Knowing that would first identify and then eliminate future damage. Routers typically have internal protection rated in thousands of volts. Transient damage is only an assumption. Destructive transients occur typically once every seven years. Other reasons could explain failures.

Yes, a protector too close to electronics and too far from earth ground can make damage easier. Necessary is to define what is and why has a previous failure occurred.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

I disagree with your reasoning. I think Solaris89, who lives in Florida and sees lightning induced surges all the time, would agree with me.

A surge protector shunts current resulting from a surge voltage to ground, before it can enter the equipment. While it may not shunt all of the current, it is still better than no protection - which would result in all the current entering your equipment.

It is not the surge voltage itself that causes the problem (ignoring arcs) it is the resulting difference in voltage between the hot and common leads, which can cause a voltage spike out of your equipment power supply.

Further, a router is only a specialized computer, there is nothing electrically unique about it. If only the router is failing, it is not due to the surge protector.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

mcduke are you always buying the same brand router? If so, it might be time to switch brands. Also are you sure your surge suppressor does not need replacing? If used hard, you might need to replace it so it does its job correctly.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

westom's comments assume the surge (if surges caused this) originated from outside the facility or home - as indicated by the service entrance comment. While such "whole house" protectors are indeed helpful for anomalies entering from the "grid", it does nothing for surges and spikes that originate from inside the home, such as from a faulty high-wattage hair dryer or vacuum cleaner. A whole house protector also assumes each wall outlet is properly wired and grounded. For this reason, protection on all your expensive electronics, and not just from outside sources, is required.

However, a surge and spike protector is little more than a fancy and expensive extension cord. While it can offer protection from surges and spikes, it does so by simply chopping off the tops ("clamping") of the AC sinewaves - leaving a "dirty" signal, which is not ideal for the power supplies which must then compensate.

Also, surge and spike protectors do absolutely nothing for low voltage events, such as dips (opposite of spikes) and sags (opposite of surges). While these low voltage events themselves cause no direct harm, low voltage events cause instability in digital electronics - which as you all know, cause computers to freeze, shutdown, or reboot - which may cause hard drive/file corruption and data loss. And preventing file corruption and data loss is what this is all about.

Finally, as pyrouncle correctly noted, the passive devices, MOVs, wear out or break down with each "hit" and in time, have little to no effect. One of my electronics instructors but equated a surge and spike protector to a motorcycle helmet. After it did its job once, it did its job and it is time to get a new one.

For these reasons a "good" UPS with AVR (automatic voltage regulation) should be used on every computer, home theater system, and big screen TV.

A "good" UPS w/AVR will "regulate" the voltage, not just clamp them, cleaning up the voltage in the event of surges and spikes, and will use the internal batteries to "boost" the voltage during low voltage events.

Note I keep saying "good" UPS w/AVR. Like power supplies, there are cheap models that should be avoided like the plague.

Oh yeah and for the record, backup power during a full power outage is only the icing on the cake. It is the AVR of a "good" UPS that is the bread and butter.

Note a 1000VA UPS will easily support the vast majority of computers, plus your network gear, PDA cradle, AND two 22" widescreen LCD monitors.

Yeah, I don't agree with that either. The very nature of a MOV device (used in virtually all Surge and Spike protectors) is to absorb the excess voltage. It does not shunt it to the other wires - that would serve no purpose. The MOV in turn, converts that energy in to heat. And since heat is the bane of all electronics, that is why they wear out (age prematurely).

If the surge is excessive, more (joules) than the MOVs can absorb, the excess is shunted to the ground wire (not to all other wires). And if the current is excessive, the surge and spike protector's circuit breaker will [should/hopefully] trip.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

You are assuming a 'whole house' protector only does exterior sourced surges. Wrong. It does all types of surges.

Furthermore if destructive surges are generated inside the house, then you are replacing appliances damaged hourly by the refrigerator and vacuum cleaner. How often every day did you replace digital clocks, dimmer switches, radios, and TVs? Never? Exactly. Because all appliances already contain superior protection that makes ‘interior surges' only noise.

Best protection at every appliance is already inside the appliances. Numbers for electronics in 1970 required interior protection to withstand 600 volts. Today, appliances withstand over 1000 volts without damage.

OP's best answer is in bottom paragraphs.

So, what can create transients that exceed thousands? Exterior transients. Earth a 'whole house' protector to make trivial, interior generated transients even less robust. And to make typically destructive surges irrelevant. I am not assuming anything due to a few decades as an engineer doing this stuff. The science is well proven. And only disputed by myths from advertising. No numbers makes obvious the myths.

Unknown is a grasp of essential electrical concepts such as 'low impedance'. If any ground does protection, then simply connect the MOV to a computer's motherboard ground. Then MOVs are grounded. Reality. Motherboard ground, digital ground, floating ground, receptacle ground, and earth ground are all electrically different. Protectors work when connected to earth ground. Receptacle safety ground obviously is not earth ground. Sharp wire bends, splices, ground wire bundled with other non-earthing wires, metallic conduit, and other previously posted and ignored facts say no earthing.

Basic electrical concepts explains why a protector can only earth if located low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to the earth ground. Impedance says why telcos want their protectors up to 50 meters distant from electronics so as to have protection. Simply repeating numbers because those long replies provide no numbers and ignored basic engineering concepts. Advertising was promoted as if knowledge.

BTW pyrouncle, a surge is not a voltage difference between the hot wire and neutral (or ground). A surge is a current (not voltage) moving in the same direction on any or all those wires. Learn a difference between normal mode and longitudinal mode electricity. High voltage only exists when something tries to stop that current. A concept found in any first semester engineering course. And contradicted by advertising.

None of this says the OP's routers are damaged by surges. Surges are typically about one every seven years. Destructive surges (as explained earlier) are not a daily or monthly event. Surges cause multiple appliance damage. How often are dimmer switches, GFCIs, or dishwasher failing?

Was the router destroyed by low voltages (brownouts)? No electronics is damage by a popular urban myth - low voltage. International design standard before 1970 defined it - in capital letters. "No Damage Region". Normal voltage for the OP's router (and all other electronics) is when incandescent bulbs dim to less than 50% intensity. How often do light bulbs dim that much? Never? An event that does not occur somehow damages a router not harmed by low voltage? At least post some engineering number that claims low voltage causes damage. Hearsay can claim anything.

Do MOVs wear out or break down? Yes. When a protector is grossly undersized - a profit center. One 'whole house' protector provides numbers that say it remains functional even after direct lightning strikes. Remains functional decades later. Because protectors that fail do ineffective protection. An effective protector put more money into properly sized MOVs. Not into profit margins and advertising.

Scams work when promoted by advertising and without numbers. Others who learned the over 100 years of well proven science know why one 'whole house' protector makes destructive surges irrelevant. Also learn why receptacle safety ground is not earth ground. Know earth is critical for any protection. And learn what is meant by 'low impedance'. Ie 'less than 10 feet'.

So much for the myths. OP is encouraged to spend less money for a superior solution. Earth one 'whole house' protector. However surges do not explain so many failed routers. Multiple failures of one router (and no other failed appliances) suggest a problem with that router or something connected to it. Too many facts (provided with numbers) suggest surges do not explain those failures.

Protector adjacent to a router has no earth ground. It connects a surge on any incoming AC wire to all other wires. More paths to find earth destructively via a router. One type of failure summarized by the salesman. In another case, a network of computers damaged because adjacent protectors earthed a surge destructively through those powered off computers and the network. But that was engineers doing an analysis.

The salesman was correct about unearthed protectors making damage easier. But numbers do not explain so many failed routers – and without other damaged appliances. Without advertising myths, then we might discuss facts that would explain multiple router failure.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

So view the manufacturer spec numbers. How does that protector, rated at hundreds of joules, absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. The myth gets promoted only when numbers are ignored.

More numbers. A typical lightning strike is 20,000 amps. So informed homeowners earth a 'whole house' protector rated at least 50,000 amps. Because the best protector absorbs no energy. The best protector connects hundreds of thousands of joules to be absorbed harmlessly in earth.

Knowledge means numbers. How does a near zero protector absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Near zero joules are hyped in advertising as 100% protection. Because so many ignore the numbers.

Meanwhile, numbers (impedance) also say why a protector too close to the router might make damage easier.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

For lightning protection, a whole house protector is essential. There are a couple of lightning suppressor manufacturers that have good white papers on the subject. Although they are orientated towards transmitting/receiving equipment, the principles still apply.

There are areas of the country that rarely get lightning. But there are other, much lower current surge sources - such as a pole pig exploding. Such surges are low enough that a small MOV device will provide the necessary protection.

The "ground" on a computer motherboard is rarely, if ever, connected to the safety ground - at least not directly. In signal circuits, if that connection exists, it produces what is called (generically) a "Pin 1 fault". This is the cause of many ground loops which can cause problems on signal lines. For example, it is often the cause of hum in audio system, both home and professional.

Yes, there is a difference between the earth ground at the distribution panel and the safety ground at the outlet. The protector still "earths" the over voltage, it just is not perfect, due to the impedance of the safety ground conductor.

The length is only part of the impedance equation. It also includes the resistance of the conductor and, as you say, bends in the conductor, what else may be bundled with the conductor and frequency of the impulse.

I doubt if many homes have 50 meters of wire between the POP and the telephone jacks.

I never stated otherwise. I stated that, ignoring arcing, it was the differential voltage that was the hazard. If the common mode (what you call longitudinal mode) surge current is identical in both hot and neutral (so the voltage will essentially the same as well), then it will not pass through the equipment transformer. In microphones that require phantom power, we make use of this fact to supply the necessary voltage/current to the microphone.

I never made such a claim about low voltage. When repairing amateur radios, I often use a Variac to start the supply voltage low and slowly increase it to full.

Which is what I have been saying all along. The problem is not the surge protector.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

I don't think portable surge protectors were ever designed to protect against a direct lightning strike - although there may be some sales people who make that claim. I doubt if any reputable manufacturer does so.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

westom and I keep going around on this year after year, but sadly, we still see the same incorrect information being presented. You cannot compare a Telco facility wiring to a house. A whole house protector does NOT protect from anomalies originating from inside the house. All electronics do NOT have surge and spike protection built in. Surge and spike protectors do nothing for low voltage events.

Oh, not this again! When something like this is said that is so obviously counter to common knowledge, it really makes believing anything else said almost impossible. While "inrush current" is a real phenomenon, and while most devices have "current limiters" to protect from such anomalies, to suggest surges and spikes, in the context of this discussion (protecting computers) are not "voltage" anomalies is ludicrous. See:

• Electrical Power Surge
• Consolidated Electric in reference to whole house surge protectors,
• How Surge Protectors Work

That is incorrect. It does NOT protect from all surges and spikes originating from inside the facility! The whole house protector is physically located near where power service enters the house. People's computers and TVs are located on the other side of the grounded service panel, other side of the grounded breaker panel, other side of the grounded wall outlet, inside the house. There will be several junction points between the computer and the whole house protector. It makes no sense to assume or believe the whole house protector will suppress a surge generated by a device on the same circuit as the computer before a local suppressor. A local surge and spike protector will shunt the excess to ground through the local wall outlet as that is the shortest path of least resistance to Earth. Not all the way back through the circuit panel, though the service panel and through the whole house protector.

Absolutely and totally false! They might have over-current protection, but not voltage surge and spike suppression. It is silly and simply wrong to assume a $15 1500W blow dryer made in China or Mexico or Malaysia will be fully equipped with surge and spike protection. Ground fault interrupt (GFI), yes. Surge and spike protection, NO!!!!

And once again, you totally ignore the possibility that any of these devices may fail and/or have a faulty component, or be damaged through misuse, abuse or accident. Until Man can create perfection 100% of the time, there will ALWAYS be unexpected failures.

Which is exactly why you want your protection at your computer, not on the other side of the house.

Not "up to" but "no more" - not exactly the same thing. It takes time to travel 50 meters. And surely 50m of wire to Earth offers MUCH MORE resistance to Earth than 10 feet. So again, your argument for whole house over local protection is flawed by your own example. Every [properly wired] wall outlet is grounded! Yes, that ground wire may then go back to the service panel, but then it goes to ground. Through the whole house protector add to the path, thus adds resistance - and that is undesirable.

It is silly to assume a home is wired to the same electrical standards as a dial central office (telco "plant"). A telco facility is designed to stay operational 24/7/365 regardless the weather. Telco facilities are inspected regularly and are maintained to the highest electrical and safety standards. You cannot compare a telco facility to a house that once built is likely NEVER to be inspected again for decades. Commercial electronics facilities like Telcos, computer rooms, ATC radio facilities have equipment racks that connect directly to 6 - 8AWG (really fat) solid copper wires that make a direct run to facility ground. Houses don't! So stop comparing a Telco facility to a house.

There is no protection from a direct lightning strike. Even radio/TV tower lightning arrestors cannot guarantee such protection. With those "potentials", if the lightning wants to get past the protector, it will simply jump around, "arc" over it.

There is NO DOUBT, marketing "fluff" would have us believe surge and spike protectors and UPS offer total iron-clad protection, even from a direct strike - almost as much as westom would have us believe whole house protector do. But nothing short of unplugging from the wall will guarantee that. But these devices will protect from most of these sort of anomalies.

And once again, while a surge and spike protector (including whole house) can help prevent destructive anomalies from damaging your equipment, only a "good" UPS w/AVR can prevent those anomalies from causing system crashes and data loss - data that is often MUCH more valuable than the hardware itself.

A surge and spike protector will interrupt power to your sensitive hardware in extreme cases. A "good" UPS will not. A surge and spike protector does NOTHING for low voltage events. The ATX12V Form Factor PSU Design Guide, Ver 2.2, March 2005 requires a PSU to "hold-up" power for only 17ms and will shut down if voltage drops below 90VAC (180VAC with 230VAC mains). A surge and spike protector is useless in those cases. And there is no "hold-up" requirement for your network hardware power supplies. The "blink of an eye", BTW, is about 300ms. This means that events you can see (like the lights flickering) are way longer than it takes to disrupt your sensitive electronics.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

But that is the primary purpose of any surge protector. Due to superior protection already inside appliances, most transients are only noise. The concern is a transient that can actually do damage. That is lightning. Or that is even what a friend saw.

A 33,000 volt wire fell upon local distribution. Electric meters exploded 30 feet from their pans. Some 100+ consumers had blown plug-in protectors connected to damaged appliances. What kind of protection was that? My friend knows someone who does this stuff. He only had one properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Other than a damaged electric meter, he had no other damage. Even his 'whole house' protector remained functional. That is why we install one protector for the entire house.

Telco switching centers connect their computers directly to overhead wires all over town. A typical thunderstorm means about 100 incoming surges per storm. How often is your town without phone service for four days after a thunderstorm? Never? Routine is to make direct lightning strikes irrelevant. Same solution for homeowners costs about $1 per protected appliance. Why would anyone spend tens of times more on portable protectors that do not even claim to protect from tinier surges?

The OP was told a protector adjacent to his router could even make damage easier. That is also true. Completely unnecessary when the superior solution for AC mains costs about $1 per protected appliance – tens of times less money.

Some sidebar corrections. A computer's motherboard ground must be connected to the computer chassis ground which must be connected to earth ground. How good is that connection to earth? Again - numbers. A trivial 100 amp surge could leave that receptacle safety ground at something approaching 12,000 volts. Because impedance between receptacle and breaker box is that excessive. Low impedance to earth means *less than 10 feet*. That distance and other factors (ie no sharp wire bends) are critical. No way around those damning numbers.

Superior protection for the OP's router means the typical 1000 volt protection already in appliances is not overwhelmed.

Another posted nonsense about a UPS. The UPS has only one function. To provide temporary and the 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. Why 'dirtiest'? Because superior protection already inside all electronics also makes 'dirtiest' UPS power irrelevant. That UPS only claims near zero protection from a type of surge that is not typically destructive. Near zero protector circuits so that advertising can claim 100% protection to consumers who ignore the numbers. Or who believe urban myths about electronics harmed by low voltage.

Back to the only relevant topic - the OP's routers. Routers have 2000 volt protection even on ethernet ports. Routers, like other appliances, are that robust. But again, damning numbers. Just another reason why multiple routers should not be surge victims.

Yes, a salesman was correct about protectors too close to electronics and too far from earth making damage easier. We engineers have seen that often. OP's posted symptoms are not synonymous with surge damage.

To have a better answer means the OP must provide relevant details.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

What a thread eh? I'd be curious if the ground of the house circuitry wasn't faulty. Just my two cents.

As for the direct lighting strike thing, no most surge protectors won't be effective against that kind of voltage. Your electronics will have been smitten in biblical proportions and the copper wire grounding your house will have evaporated. You will likely have bigger problems than a router to deal with. Lightning is electric arcing from cloud to ground. If it can cover that much space through just air, your piddly piece of electronic "protection" isn't going to stop it either.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

See, westom, and no offense, and I mean this sincerely - you do not know what you are talking about and I suggest that is the reason for most of your misunderstandings and our constant conflicts. Lightning protection is NOT the primary purpose of surge protectors - not the type used for home electronics. For whole house protectors, that certainly is a major purpose, but home electronics are subjected to hundreds of surges and spikes throughout the day that have absolutely nothing to do with lightning. For one, as seen here, lightning tends to cause spikes, not surges. Note here, it says of surges, "The most familiar source is probably lightning, though it's actually one of the least common causes." Surges generally are caused by nearby heavy (high wattage) devices like air conditioners, hair dryers, refrigerators, water coolers, etc. Most of these anomalies are handled with ease by a component's own regulation circuits, but many are very high, approaching extreme and beyond and for that, a "good" UPS with AVR or a good surge and spike protector is suited to handle that.

That is pure feculent blather so stop trying to BS us. Is there where you are going to try again to incorrectly interject ESD protection as the same as surge and spike protection? Don't do it - not the same thing.

More feculent blather and a demonstration of the total lack of understanding of the function of a "good" UPS with AVR. Anyone who has stuck a scope to the output stages of a surge and spike protector and compared it to the output of a "good" UPS with AVR knows his comments about dirty power is hogwash. It is certainly not as clean as a fully regulated 60Hz sinewave, but it is stable, and plenty clean enough for our PSUs to sort out without shutting down.

And again, you ignore low voltage events which maybe not destructive to hardware, the resulting system crashes can be destructive to data.

In its most basic form, westom is right about a UPS - it provides backup power during a power outage - that is, uninterruptible power. But a basic UPS like that is one used for lights, or the garage door opener - not for sophisticated high-speed digital electronics.

And clearly, to suggest "all electronics" have "superior protection" is simply ridiculous. Stop trying to take everyone as fools. My toaster surely does not have superior surge and spike protection over that of even the most budget surge and spike protector. Neither does my $20 coffee pot, or my microwave oven.

I really don't know your motive here. Perhaps you sell whole house surge suppressors. But please, when it comes to computer systems, expensive home audio/video electronics, sophisticated medical, surveillance, or networking hardware (not located in a data center facility designed for that purpose), stop misinforming. Some of comments (surges are not voltage, 2000 volt protection on Ethernet ports, superior protection, etc.) are so outlandish, it really is making you look just as outlandish. That's sad. And the fact we have to go through this every time this topic comes up, and still no one agrees with you, it becomes more sad.

You right and everybody else wrong just isn't the way it is. Sorry.

Yeah. And that could be starting at the wall outlet, or anywhere back. That said, Many older homes still use two-prong outlets, or the third prong ties into the cold water pipes. Another reason, besides having a "good" UPS with AVR, I also recommend every one have, or have access to an AC Outlet Tester. I recommend one with a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) indicator as it can be used to test bathroom and kitchen outlets too. These testers can be found for your type and voltage outlet, foreign or domestic, at most home improvement stores, or even the electrical department at Walmart.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

Only the last paragraph has significance to the OP's problems. This demonstrates how anyone can quickly identify those long posts only as myths.

I ignored your posts because so many outright lies and myths were insulting. For example, you subverted what an ATX standard said by 'assuming' (word association) that low voltage is destructive. Even the ATX spec does not say that. What happens to all electronics where voltage goes too low? It powers off - harmlessly.

Word association discussed later.

Why is an engineer with generations of experience misinformed? You obviously have no such basic training or education as made obvious by HowStuffWorks. An engineer would learn, for example, from a 1970 international design standard that describes any low voltage to electronics: "No Damage Region". In all capital letters. You even ignored that to recite popular urban myths - ie HowStuffWorks.

Someone once cited that particular HowStuffWorks article in Wikipedia. It was quickly removed as bogus with supporting comment.

You should have known it was only advertising propaganda. It provides no numbers. And contradicts how electricity works.

Well, my profession requires me to know something only after numbers are provided. For example, Martzloff and Hahn in 1970 determined a furnace generates your 'surge' typically 1.4 to 9.6 times daily. How many times during the day do you replace least robust devices: dimmer switches and GFCIs. Neither even have galvanic isolation. Why are you not replacing them daily? Repeating what you ignored. Even those least robust devices are not harm by mythical surges - also called noise. That subjective claim in HowStuffWorks is a first indication of knowledge only from sales brochures.

Why do I know this stuff from a few generations of experience combined with science papers and numbers? Standler in 1989 published a description of transients (your surges) on wall receptacles. "Bursts of high frequency noise with peak to peak value between 40 and 100 volts occurred ... 0.5 per hour." A burst every half hour? Why are you not replacing dimmer switches and clocks twice every hour? Because HowStuffWorks posted lies.

Standler noted those 'bursts' were longitudinal mode. Protectors adjacent to appliances only claim protection from normal mode transients. Basic electrical knowledge is necessary before making accusations. Those manipulated by HowStuffWorks and other advertising would be hearing longitudinal and normal mode electricity for the first time. Terms intentionally ignored by HowStuffWorks to promote myths.

OP can earth one 'whole house' protector to make both longitudinal and normal mode transients irrelevant. HowStuffWorks solves that problem by pretending electrical concepts do not exist. Shorting the facts is how advertising and hearsay are profitable.

What is the output of a typical 120 volt UPS (that is called a sine wave output)? Again, numbers: 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts. That UPS outputs power 'dirtier' than what Standler describes in wall receptacles. Electronics are so robust as to even make UPS excessive harmonics and 270 volt spikes irrelevant. But again, a rebuttal with numbers. I have a few generations doing this stuff.

What is a cleaner output from a UPS in battery backup mode? A utility demonstrates a 'clean' UPS output:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-03.asp

That same 'clean' power, ideal for all electronics, can be harmful to small electric motors. Another term even taught in high school calculus - harmonics - says why.

I have no intent on making you or anyone angry. But your every citation was literally insulting. Devoid of facts. Mocks knowledge, education, and experience of someone who was probably doing this stuff before you were even born.

You could not tell the difference between urban myths and hard science? Science means numbers. Urban myths are typical of that HowSutffWorks article. Subjective claims that even contradict how electricity works.

Knowledge means you discuss longitudinal and normal mode transients, galvanic isolation, and provide numbers for each internal generated surge. Basic electrical concepts that one must know before making any electrical recommendations.

Standler discusses the most common transients - switching of reactive loads. And then notes how irrelevant these transients are. HowStuffWorks hypes them into massive damage. Standler then describes why earthing a 'whole house' protector is essential. "a lightning strike on an overhead power line can be a disaster for electrical equipment inside nearby buildings." Informed homeowners earth the effective solution to even protect a furnace and refrigerator. But again, I know this stuff by also making direct lightning strikes irrelevant. How many protection systems have you installed to make direct lightning strikes irrelevant? Your numbers?

Martzloff and Hahn also discussed protection routinely found in clocks. Typically 2000 to 6000 volts. Even clocks were designed that robust. Why do professionals define robust protection in appliances with numbers? But you know otherwise from hearsay and subjective claims in HowStuffWorks?

Provided was another number. How often is a surge that can actually overwhelm protection inside appliances? Maybe once every seven years. Since you know surges are daily, then how many smoke detectors do you replace daily?

Why does every informed homeowner earth one 'whole house' protector? IEEE defined one properly earthed 'whole house' protector as doing “between 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection”. In a Standard entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding'. One solution does that much. Why first learn numbers from engineering documents before posting? That IEEE Standard says what happens when a 'whole house' protector is properly earthed:

What did HowStuffWorks say about those numbers? Why did HowStuffWorks not provide any numbers? Propaganda targets those who only believe subjective claims and outright lies.

Please stop telling me you know better. A first indication of wild speculation: citations devoid of numbers. A point I repeat often. Subjective claims (no numbers) are only insulting. HowStuffWorks is insulting.

Your definition of spike and surge (from a subjective source) contradicts a definition provided by the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE). The word ‘surge’ denotes an overstress condition that has a duration of less than a few milliseconds. What you define as spike and surge are both described by the IEEE as a surge. Please stop making conclusions by using word association.

Knowledge from word association creates urban myths. For example, an extreme brownout can cause a failure? Word association assumes that means hardware damage. No. The word failure as in ‘reboot’ or ‘power off’ is completely different from the word failure as in ‘hardware damage’. But so many *know* failure only means hardware damage - as you did by misrepresenting ATX standard. Using word association, you have even misrepresented what the ATX standard says.

The OP can protect his routers by first inspecting, then upgrading earthing. And must properly install only one 'whole house' protector. A best solution even found in munitions dumps costs the homeowner about $1 per protected appliance. And not even discussed in HowStuffWorks. Why do they ignore the best solution proven by over 100 years of experience?

Meanwhile, none of this would explain router failures. I keep stating because so many ignore the OP's question. Because so many outright lies and retail propaganda are posted as if fact. cabbiinc asks a relevant question - does earthing even exist?

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

I am very familiar with commercial lightning suppression, as I used to install and service various transmitting facilities, often on the tops of mountains where they received multiple lightning strikes a year.

With a properly protected site, lightning will NOT harm the equipment. But it is not as simple as installing some suppressors on the power lines and antenna leads.

While most houses are not protected like government/military/commercial facilities, the radio room portion of MY house is - since I want to protect all the expensive Amateur Radio gear (and other electronics) that I have installed. The installation also provides some protection to the rest of the house.

The antennas and tower actually protect the house from a direct strike, due to the "umbrella" or "protective cone" effect. You could consider the antennas/tower as a giant lightning rod.

If you are interested in reading about part of the process, a Google search on "lightning entrance panel" should provide plenty of hits.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

Originally Posted by pyrouncle:
I don't think portable surge protectors were ever designed to protect against a direct lightning strike

Portable surge protectors are designed to protect against minor overvoltage surges. Direct lightning strikes hardly fall into that category.

Tripp claims that their small UPS units designed for plugging into the wall to protect computer systems even protect against lightning. I would have to read the details of the guarantee, because I find that rather hard to believe.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

A faulty grounding conductor would not cause the problem. A house will function just fine with just the two hot conductors and the neutral. The grounding conductor only has current flow if there is a fault to a current carrying wire.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

Actually, one hot and one neutral - though you will never see that in a new home these days. My 60 year old house, on the other hand, still has a couple two-wire outlets left that one of these days I will change out.

Amateur Radio huh? As a radio maintenance technician for the Air Force for many many years, I was responsible for maintaining several KWM-2A transceivers and 30L-1 linear amplifiers in multiple MARS stations around the world, including some very remote mountain tops in far off places I would much rather forget. I am intimately familiar with radio equipment rooms, communications facilities, RF transmission lines, antennas, antenna towers and lightning suppression myself.

And it is because of my formal training and that experience, as well as working professionally with computers and networking hardware for 40 years, including line regulators, AC waveform shaping, and backup power, that I know a little bit about surges and spikes, how they work, how they destroy and how they can originate from sources other than outside the facility.

So, with some authority on the subject, it is easy for me to recommend all computers should be on a "good" UPS with AVR. A surge and spike protector, while better than nothing, is not good enough.

I assume you mean Tripp Lite. This is where westom is correct - marketing weenies would have us believe in miracles if it will entice us to buy their products. That said, there is a big difference between a $100 1500VA UPS and a $500 1500VA UPS. You can expect the higher priced UPS to have a much faster/instantaneous cutover time isolating the equipment from the AC line. That said, as I mentioned before, if a direct lightning strike wants to get past the UPS, it will simply arc around it - fortunately, "direct" strikes are rare and by the time any lightning induced spike hits the UPSs, the potentials are in the few 1000 volts and not millions of volts.

Still, protecting the hardware from damage is not the same thing as protecting the data. Even the best UPS will simply shut down if it senses something drastically wrong. So regardless, having a good data backup routine is essential.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

Tripp Lite provides insurance against lightning strikes. It doesn't claim to totally protect against it. There's a big difference. If you insure your vehicle it doesn't mean you won't get hit or hit something else, so please use common sense.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

Good point and I meant to say that too. :-o Same with surge and spike protectors - they will insure your hardware if damage occurs and it can be proven it was due to failure in the protector. Still, replacing your hardware does not replace any lost data.

Something else I forgot to mention is there is a rather significant downside to a UPS. The batteries are typically SLA - sealed lead-acid batteries and they typically have a lifespan of about 3 years, after which they must be replaced. However, contrary to what APC, Tripp Lite, Cyberpower, or the other UPS makers tell you, you do not have to buy replacement batteries from them. You can get them much cheaper, and often with free shipping (important being so heavy) from many 3rd party battery warehouses. Replacing them is really easy too.

So when it comes close to the 3 year mark, I have table lamp with two 150W light bulbs I connect to my UPS them pull the UPS plug from the wall and see what happens. Better have my lights go out than to find out the hard way with my computer.

The most expensive UPS use lithium ion batteries that should (in theory) last ten years or more, but as noted they are pretty expensive.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

A few observations:

* I have never seen anything in the user manuals for major brands of routers that advises against the use of AC surge protectors.

* By default, a router's Wi-Fi transceiver chip stays on 24/7.

* Face it - the actual chip in a home grade router is a low cost dime-a-dozen part made in China designed to last only a few years. Even if a router has a "lifetime" warranty, it's unlikely most people will (a) be able to find their original receipt and (b) go through the hassle of sending it back for a replacement.

* A router set on a flat surface or mounted to a wall has limited air flow; hence the chip is subjected to more heat. A router that is set on a vertical stand or vented shelf has better airflow and cooling, potentially extending the life of the unit.​

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

Good points. Though without knowing what was wrong with the ones that failed, it would be impossible to point to a cause. I have had ports fail, router power supplies fail, and the router itself fail. At least when an Ethernet port fails you can move to another port, or add a switch to add ports - as long as it is not the uplink port that fails.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

Sorry, I should have been more explicit. I meant the incoming feeder to the house.

Yeah, my house has some of these outlets as well. With the lath and plaster walls and internal fire breaks, it would be a major demolition project to upgrade the wiring. So I installed GFCI outlets at the start of each chain. I then installed three wire outlets everywhere else with labels stating that no physical ground exists.

I see the NEC pretty much requires GFCI on all common area outlets and AFCI (arc fault) in bedrooms and possibly other areas.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

Read the fine print. A warranty on Tripplite, Belkin, and others is full of exemptions - as so many have discovered the hard way. Those warranties sell inferior products with obscene profit margins to the naive. A similar protector circuit sells at profit in Wal-Mart for $7. Why charge $25 or $60 for a similar product? Spin and myths - ie that warranty - convince so many it must be better. It costs more money. It has a warranty. So it must be better? That myth is why Monster can sell a similar circuit for $120. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling equivalent products for higher profits. Because so many know by routinely ignoring facts, numbers, and the fine print.

Buy a protector so that no damage happens. Buy insurance from a licensed broker who is required, by laws, to honor claims.

That Tripplite is a $4 power strip with ten cent protector parts. Claims protection only from surges so tiny as not damage any appliance. May even create a house fire if a 'whole house' protector is not earthed. Effective solution for protecting routers must connect low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot' ) connection to single point earth ground. That protection already exists on everyone's phone line.

Even QST Magazine (the voice for Ham radio) defines protection. For example three articles entitled "Lightning Protection for the Amateur Radio Station". Informed radio engineers and techs know this well:

ARRL says an AC neutral wire (maybe 50 feet - not meters), that is less than 0.1 ohms resistance, is maybe 120 ohms impedance. Impedance so high that the protector obviously is not earthed. Cannot protect from any typically destructive surge.

Even the ARRL says why protectors adjacent to an appliance or router is ineffective. Ineffective products are often promoted by a bogus warranty.

gman863 - routers have protection typically rated at 2000 volts. A router should not fail even ten years later even if always in a 100 degree F room. You are posting popular urban myths about heat that is contrary to how semiconductors work and what is even stated by numbers in all datasheets.

Why does the OP have router failures? Low on a suspect list is surges. The salesman was correct about one thing. A protector without earthing (a neutral wire provides virtually no earthing) has a history of earthing surges destructively through adjacent electronics (ie a router).

BTW, what further isolates a receptacle's neutral from earth ground? GFCI or AFCI.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

Please explain how a GFCI does that.

 

Re: I go through a router every 3 years and I had someone tell me don't use surge pr

Ah yeah, for 240VAC service in, you are correct.

No body is disagreeing with you here - the warranties are clearly written to make people believe their computer systems are fully protected from "damage". But I say again and again and again if necessary, it is not just about protecting the hardware. A S&S protector does absolutely nothing to protect your data and is exactly why I said earlier, S&S protectors are little more than fancy and expensive extension cords.

As far as the need for a good ground, I fail to see your point. A good ground, from outlet to Earth, is a requirement for clean, safe power regardless if directly connected to the outlet, going through a S&S protector, a whole house protector, or a "good" UPS w/AVR.

As for Monster, IMO, the entire company is a scam. They charge outrageous prices for shoddy products packaged in beautiful wrapping. I'll even take what Radio Shack has to offer over Monster any day.

:mad Oh no. These falsehoods again? That is just pure fabrication. Stop making stuff up (an extreme euphemism in an attempt to be polite). There is NO such requirement in the 802.3, 802.1 or PoE standards. Ethernet ports are NOT design to withstand surges and spikes of 2000 volts and certainly their $10 AC to DC power transformers and 22# power leads are not either. Statements like that make you look totally foolish and clearly unbelievable. 2000 volts? Come on! Knock it off.

More fabrication and attempted obfuscation. All that was said about heat was routers need to be positioned to allow for ventilation. Nothing mythical about that. A 100° room with air moving around is one thing - a 100° room and the router stuck in a cubby hole on a shelf with no ventilation is totally different and very likely to result in significantly higher temps inside the router case. And that WILL increase aging.

Radios - particularly transmitters, have high AC voltage, high current devices and are designed to pick up and transmit RF radiation. Computing devices are low DC voltage, low current devices and are designed to block RFI. Totally different and one should not be used to compare the other.

Now I propose the falsehoods and fabrications cease and this thread be returned to the OP with haste.