New build comp, choices choices...

Hi All,

I currently have a MESH computer, built by them because i didn't have the balls to build it myself. It was a top spec computer when i bought it 6 ish years ago... The specs are as follows:
PSU: HEC-550TD-PTE (550W)
motherboard: asus P5B-TMX/S
windows 7 32bit
intel core 2 duo 6400 at 2.13 GHz
NVIDIA GeForce 7900 GS
2 gig ram (2x1gb)
SoundBlaster XiFi Xtreme Audio card
1x cheap DVD drive
2x hard drives totalling 750 Gb, easily enough for me
Ralink RT2500 Wireless LAN Card

It currently is running two screens on full HD resolution, one 22" and one 23" (both samsung of course). When on just chrome and itunes, music doesn't play smoothly, and sounds like its being remixed, so its time to revamp it i think. i recently upgraded from XP to win7, but 32 bit version.

I assume that memory needs increasing, that's always the case, and i am looking to get an i5 or i7 on a 64 bit motherboard capable of DDR3 and USB3.
Given my heavy screen usage, should I get a new all singing graphics card, or another nvidia Geforce 7900 gs to work simultaneously with the current one, with one screen on each (is it crossfire that does this?)
Finally, I want it to look pretty, i do want lights in it, but should i go for air-cooled or water-cooled? and would light up fans be the only option for lit up fans, or would just normal fans with LED strips behind work? also is there such a thing as an LED controller that reacts to sound? would be cool if the whole PC pulsed to music

I wouldn't be using it for gaming necesarily, i have a ps3 for that, but i do image editing and heavy CAD (solidworks) so a bit of oomph will be required. mostly i just want the computer to cope with multitasking again (chrome and itunes seamlessly)

 

You only need one graphics card to run two monitors. Your problem now is most likely due to limited RAM resources - not graphics horsepower. But still, if me, and I were building a new computer, I would get a new graphics card - just one with two digital (HDMI or DVI) outputs.

Windows 7 64-bit is the way to go these days and the sweetspot for Win7 64-bit is 8Gb of RAM (with a dual-channel memory architecture motherboard - 6Gb for triple channel).

Understand fancy lights do absolutely nothing for performance, consume some power, generate some heat, and do absolutely nothing for performance - worth repeating. A case needs to sit quietly and discreetly off to the side and not draw attention to itself. After all, what's on the monitor(s) is what's important so that's where my attention goes. So my advice is don't waste your money on things that do absolutely nothing for performance or well-being of your computer. Instead, use that money towards a better graphics solution or more RAM. That will serve you much better over the years to come. Fancy lights do nothing but waste money.

Alternative cooling solutions void the CPU warranties for boxed Intel or AMD CPUs that come packaged with a supplied cooler. For this reason, both Intel and AMD provide excellent cooling solutions. Remember - it is the case's responsibility to provide adequate cool air flow through the case. The CPU cooler just needs to toss the CPU's heat into that flow so it can be moved out.

And of course - it is ESSENTIAL you power your new hardware with a quality 80-Plus certified PSU from a reputable maker. Do NOT try to cut budget corners with a cheap PSU.

 

HI Digerati,

thanks for the reply

i am assuming that my motherboard is not dual channel then? or even triple?
would you say that my graphics card is sufficient?
and i will forget fancy lights...

also, is my PSU not a:

then?
if not, then who is reputable and what is an 80 plus certified PSU?
could you recommend a 64 bit motherboard for intel i5 or i7 with dual channel memory? and if needed what sort of graphics card would suffice?
thanks a lot!

rich

 

Huh? What motherboard? You have not posted a new one yet. Are you talking about your current one? A quick Google search of asus P5B-TMX/S specs shows your current board is dual-channel too. Triple channel did not turn out to be the whiz-bang configuration some thought it would - probably because (just a guess here) 8Gb is better than 6Gb and 12Gb is way overkill for most, even extreme, users. So dual-channel is, by far, most common. And matching and buying sticks in pairs is easier too. Note dual-channel has been around for almost 50 years!!!

Whenever planning a new build, you (where you = everyone) need to do your homework and research your parts. If considering a motherboard, go out to the maker's site and download the manual. Same thing with graphics cards, cases, etc. and read up on them while you pace back and forth for the delivery truck. Note especially the mounting instructions for the motherboards, and the warnings about stand-offs and ESD precautions - understand and heed them well before thinking about touching anything.

Also not all the major motherboard makers post QVLs (qualified vendors lists) on their motherboard's webpage for compatible CPUs and RAM. You must buy from the CPU list but there are too many RAM makers and RAM models for motherboard makers to test them all. So you must buy RAM with the same specs as listed RAM.

And remember, Bing Google is your friend.

I don't really recommend specifics because, frankly, new products are coming out so fast, I can't keep up, or perhaps I am too lazy to do all the research. Also - so much simply comes down to personal preference too. For example, I prefer Intels but AMD makes excellent and just as reliable CPUs too.

And you have not stated your budget - a critical bit of information needed when giving advice.

That said, since you have decided on the i5/i7 CPU family (an excellent choice, IMO), I might suggest you visit Newegg, MWave or some of the other retail sites that offer motherboard bundles. Find CPUs you are considering and use their bundle wizards to see what boards they bundle with them. In this way, you will see board they already have tested and guarantee to work with that CPU. You don't have to buy there, but it take much of the guesswork out of your research.

I happen to prefer Gigabyte motherboards but also like and have used ASUS, BIOStar, MSI, Foxxcon and Intel with no problems too. Even budget motherboards today are reliable - though I would still stick to the common brands.

Sufficient? Sure - depending on what YOU (and only you) consider as acceptable for the tasks you ask of your computer. I am not big gamer so my Gigabyte NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260 with 896Mb of DDR3 RAM running two 22" Samsung widescreen monitors lets me do anything I want to do, including watching BluRay Disks with no jerks or jitters (Win7 64-bit, 8Gb RAM).

With todays graphics oriented world, it is pretty much safe to say the more money you put in graphics, the better your computer's over all performance will be. But note the best cards for gaming do NOT make the best cards for CAD/CAE or graphics editing work. For that, you need a "workstation" graphics card and as can be seen here, they can bust a budget.

Gaming cards can do CAD/CAE work, and workstation cards can game. But that's like using your Porsche to go camping and your pickup truck to race through the mountains. Both will work but not really the right tools for the job. Nevertheless, you should read Toms Hardware - Best Graphics Cards for the Money, May 2012.

Below is my canned text for sizing and selecting PSUs:

Use the eXtreme PSU Calculator Lite to determine your minimum and recommended power supply unit (PSU) requirements. Plan ahead and plug in all the hardware you think you might have in 2 or 3 years (extra drives, bigger or 2nd video card, more RAM, etc.). Be sure to read and heed the notes at the bottom of the calculator page. I recommend setting Capacitor Aging to 10% and both TDP and system load to 100%. These steps ensure the supply has adequate head room for stress free (and perhaps quieter) operation, as well as future hardware demands. Research your video card and pay particular attention to the power supply requirements for your card listed on your video card maker's website. If not listed, check a comparable card (same graphics engine and RAM) from a different maker. The key specifications, in order of importance are:

1. Current (amperage or amps) on the +12V rail,
2. Efficiency,
3. Total wattage.

Don’t try to save a few dollars by getting a cheap supply! Digital electronics, including CPUs, RAM, and today's advanced graphics cards, need clean, stable power. A good, well chosen supply will provide years of service and upgrade wiggle room. Look for power supply brands listed under the "Reputable" column of PC Mech's PSU Reference List. Another excellent read is Tom’s Hardware, Who’s Who In Power supplies: Brands, Labels, And OEMs. Note that some case retailers “toss in” a generic or inadequate PSU just to make the case sale. Be prepared to “toss out” that supply for a good one with sufficient power.

PSUs are inherently inefficient. Most PSUs have an efficiency rating of around 70%. This means for every 100 watts of power a PSU draws from the wall, only 70 watts is delivered to the motherboard, with the rest wasted in the form of heat. The best supplies are 85 to 90% efficient, and as expected, cost more. A quality supply with an efficiency rating equal to or greater than 80% requires a better design using higher quality (tighter tolerances) components. To ensure a quality, efficient PSU, select one that is 80 PLUS certified and is EnergyStar Compliant. 80 PLUS certified PSUs are required to have fairly linear efficiencies. This is important to ensure the PSU is running at or near peak efficiency regardless the load or power demands. Non-linear PSUs typically are most efficient when the load is in a narrow range between 70 and 90% of the PSU’s capacity and the efficiency may drop dramatically above and below those amounts.

Too big of a PSU hurts nothing but your budget. Your computer will draw from the PSU only what it needs, not what the PSU is capable of delivering. If a computer needs 300 watts it will draw 300 watts regardless if the PSU is a 400W, 650W, or 1000W PSU. In turn, the PSU, regardless its size, will draw from the wall only what it needs to support the computer. In this example, it will draw 300 watts, plus another 45 – 90 watts, depending on the PSU’s inefficiency.

As noted, the eXtreme Calculator determines minimum and recommended requirements. If the calculator (with the changes I suggested) recommends a 400 watt minimum, a quality 400W supply will serve you just fine. However, a quality 550W – 600W supply will have, among other things, larger heat sinks to dissipate potentially more heat. It might have a larger fan too. The 400W supply will run most of the time closer to capacity, while the larger supply will be loafing along, rarely breaking a sweat. To help the smaller heat sinks get rid of the wasted 80 watts (20% of 400) of heat, the fan in the 400W supply may need to run full speed, while the fan in the larger supply, with bigger sinks just loafs along too – but in near silence. Also, it is typical for manufacturers to use higher quality parts, design, and manufacturing techniques in their higher power supplies.

Note: Capacitor Aging. All electronics “age” over time. Electrons flowing through components bang around and create friction and heat causing wear and tear, altering the electrical characteristics of the device. Over time, this weakens the device resulting in eventual failure. Power supplies have always suffered profoundly from aging effects resulting in a loss of capacity. In a large part, this is due to capacitor aging though in recent years, capacitor technologies have improved in that area. The best PSUs use the best (and most expensive) capacitors which suffer less from aging effects than older capacitor types. If planning on buying a new, high-end PSU, setting capacitor aging to 10% may result in a more realistic recommendation. However, headroom “buffer” will be significantly reduced. You can expect your PSU to last 5 years or longer. Since it is better to buy too big rather than too small, and since it is hard to predict what your power requirements will be in 3 years, using 30% for Capacitor Aging ensures you have enough headroom for virtually any upgrade.

Don't forget to budget for a good UPS with AVR (automatic voltage regulation). Surge and spike protectors are inadequate and little more than fancy, expensive extension cords. ​

 

Hi again,

Thanks for all the amazing advice, i will defo go for a beastly PSU, sounds v important!
I have been researching away, and am a bit unsure about a few things...
Btw, when i say CAD cards i mean graphics cards specifically for solidworks, autodesk etc and gaming are the ones people normally put in their computers.
You say that CAD graphics cards are different to gaming graphics cards, so why is that and would a CAD card maybe be better for strategy games because of the way it views?
my friend has a brand new laptop with a gaming spec and is great at doing renders and CAD? :confused

Would i be better of buying another NVIDIA based gaming graphics card and running it in SLI with my current card? i could run one screen off each, so would they need to be in SLI or would they work independently?
that way i could get a cheaper, one output CAD card for doing CAD, and have my NVIDIA 7900GS just running my web browser and itunes?
or would something like this be better to run in SLI?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...38;_Video_Devices-_-Best_Sellers-_-14-130-625

IF the cards would not need to be in SLI (because they have their own screens, i dont want them to help each other out) then could i get an AMD and run that on one screen and have the NVIDIA 7900GS i already own on the other screen?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814195096
if all this is ok up till now, would i then theoretically be able to run 5 screens?

Thank you for your help, I understand how simple these questions are, its just i am a mechanical engineer and am uncomfortable making assumptions without all the information i can grasp hold of...

Richard

 

Beastly? No. Adequate with plenty of headroom? Yes. And from a reputable maker.

And those are called, "workstation" graphics cards.

Yes, so did you above.

Why is a pickup truck better at hauling a load of gravel than a Porsche? Why is a Porsche better at racing through the mountains than a pickup truck? Not all cards are created equal. An no to the strategy games thing.

While mixing cards in SLI can work, it can be a problem. Working with identical cards is less of a hassle - though most users are just fine with one card.



There is no such thing as one size fits all.

 

Hi,

By beastly I meant solid, like reliable and 80 plus etc, sorry for my funny wording!

Sorry I repeat myself lots, I just try to make sure that I'm being clear on what I'm asking

Would using a NVIDIA GeForce 7900GS AND an ATI FirePro V4800 at the same time, but for different screens work? Or would the computer get confused because of there being one AMD and one NVIDIA card?
If it did work, would I then be able to to CAD on one screen, and run games on the other screen? or would neither screen be specialised any more?

Sorry if these are silly questions, I am just aware of the amount that I don't know and don't want to mess things up!

Rich

 

Ah! Then we are on the same page there!

Although, in theory, you can run an NVIDIA and an AMD/ATI card in the same machine, but it can be a real hassle as each driver wants to be the default.

Also, you don't "run" anything on a screen. EVERYTHING runs on the computer. Where you have the program "displayed" is what we are talking about and note you typically don't need two cards to fully utilize two monitors. I have been running dual-monitors for nearly 10 years (and can't live without them) with a single card. And right now, I am using Internet Explorer on Monitor 1 and I have Word and Mailwasher displayed on Monitor 2.

If you want a gaming machine, I recommend you build a gaming machine. If you want a workstation for CAD/CAE and graphics design, then I recommend you build a workstation. If you want a decent all-purpose machine, I recommend getting the best card you can afford (see that Toms' Hardware link above) and make sure you have lots of RAM.

 

Just for completion if anybody else views this thread, i spoke to David from NVIDIA (the experts) and he said that a quadro graphics card can handle games AS WELL as a gaming graphics card of the same price. Therefore if anyone wants to build a machine for gaming and CAD, then a quadro will work perfectly.

Do note that CAD applications dont always support SLI, so just one massive Quadro card is best

the full convo is below:
Chat Transcript 05/24/2012 11:07 AM
[10:47:15 AM] Hi, my name is David. How may I help you?
[10:47:23 AM] David: Hello Richard
[10:47:34 AM] Richard Howells: I have two screens, so could i say use screen A for CAD (Solidworks), and screen B for gaming? plugging screen A into a quadro graphics card and screen B into a GeForce?
they may not be in SLI, but in my naive view then each screen will be specialised differently?
[10:48:34 AM] Richard Howells: that is assuming that the graphics card just receives info from the CPU to process, and then sends it out at the screen?
[10:49:42 AM] David: That configuration you have in mind is not a recommended configuration. If you are going to install a pair of graphics card, they should come from the same family or cards.
[10:50:42 AM] David: You can have 2 Quadro or 2 Geforce cards installed.
[10:51:09 AM] Richard Howells: ok,, so could i connect both screens into BOTH cards, and use device manager to disable/enable the card i want to use depending on what i will be doing?
[10:51:36 AM] David: Interesting setup that you are trying to achieve.
[10:51:47 AM] Richard Howells: i know, i like a challenge
[10:52:21 AM] David: Typically, folks just shut down a cad app and then let the GPU dedicate itself for gaming.
[10:52:44 AM] Richard Howells: using which graphics card?
[10:53:00 AM] Richard Howells: i wont be doing both at the same time, it would be one or the other
[10:53:10 AM] David: I see.
[10:53:31 AM] Richard Howells: the setup i first suggested would not be in SLI, they would be stand alone cards
[10:53:34 AM] David: Would you consider yourself a casual gamer?
[10:53:54 AM] Richard Howells: i game using my PC for strategy games only, because they are pants on ps3
[10:54:31 AM] David: Ok, then it I think a Quadro would work for you.
[10:55:11 AM] Richard Howells: you think a quadro would run strategy games well? like 1280 x 1080 graphics at 30fps?
[10:55:20 AM] David: A quadro will support gaming and CAD. Quadro works better for CAD program then the cheaper Geforce GPUs(design for entertainment).
[10:55:46 AM] David: Sure, a Quadro card will work. I use to play games on the Quadro awhile back.
[10:56:13 AM] Richard Howells: so a quadro is more powerful than a gaming card, so can cope with strategy games?
[10:56:16 AM] David: The Quadro family of GPUs come in different flavor, from the low to the high end.
[10:56:28 AM] David: Of course, all will come in different price point.
[10:56:58 AM] Richard Howells: so if i found a Quadro and GeForce at the same price, then they would be As good as each other at games?
[10:57:21 AM] David: Yes, it should.
[10:58:16 AM] Richard Howells: because on many forums people say that the two different processor types mean that neither can do the job of the other, so is the truth that a gaming card cannot do CAD well, but a CAD card can do gaming?
[10:58:44 AM] David: One moment please.
[10:59:03 AM] Richard Howells: ok
[11:00:30 AM] David: Correct, a CAD supported card like the Quadro GPUs will be able to handle gaming just fine.
[11:00:52 AM] Richard Howells: you just asked a techy guy?
[11:01:38 AM] David: No, I am the techie guy, been doing this for 20 yrs(dating myself here) And the Geforce(more for entertainment) is not better suited for CAD.
[11:02:03 AM] David: One second, let me give you a link that explain the difference between Geforce and Quadro family of GPUs.
[11:02:16 AM] Richard Howells: ok thanks, so offence intended...
[11:02:18 AM] Richard Howells: *no
[11:03:24 AM] David: Here you go. I think this will give you the info you need to make a sound decision on what to buy. http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answ...sion/L3RpbWUvMTMzNzg4MjUzNy9zaWQva2FuSFVXWWs=
[11:03:41 AM] David: Many folks have the same question like yourself.
[11:04:13 AM] Richard Howells: ah i see, i will go for quadro cards then
[11:04:15 AM] David: To get the right balance of power and price, I'd consider a card in the middle.
[11:04:31 AM] Richard Howells: could it be cheaper to buy two cards in the lower middle in SLI?
[11:04:35 AM] David: Of course, if you have a big wallet, go with the best.
[11:05:14 AM] Richard Howells: could it be cheaper to buy two cards in the lower middle in SLI?
[11:06:48 AM] David: Well, that really depends on the application. I am not aware of too many CAD type appliations that support SLI, so you may not get any advantage. But when it comes to playing games, you will have the advantage since many game titles support SLI. But its good idea to check and see if your game is supported in SLI mode.
[11:07:14 AM] Richard Howells: ok, thanks a lot!
[11:07:21 AM] David: no problem.
[11:07:25 AM] Richard Howells: have a good day
[11:07:28 AM] 'Richard Howells' disconnected ('Concluded by End-user').

 

Hmmm,

Please note, I said "...the best cards for gaming do NOT make the best cards for CAD/CAE."Well" is very relative. There are many who are perfectly happy with the gaming and CAD performance of their $100 cards too.

If my scales tilted more towards gaming as priority, I would get a good gaming card. It is most likely CAD performance would be fine - just not as good as with a workstation card. There would not be a market for both workstation and gaming cards if they each did not have distinctive advantages.

 

Just to clarify further, when I say a gaming card is not as good as a dedicated workstation card, I am not referring to the quality of the image but rather processing speed and maybe even some advanced workstation features. For example, a gaming card may struggle or fail to display an animated (say turning upside down and 180° around) 3D rendering of an architectural blueprint of a 20-story building. But a static (not animated) display of the building would be perfect. Or rendering a CAE image might take a little longer with a game card.

Clearly, a good game card would do better at computer design than a good workstation card would be at gaming. So if two high-end computers are not in the budget, one optimized for gaming and the other setup as a professional workstation for CAD/CAE work, then build a good solid machine (lots of RAM, a nice CPU and a quality PSU from a reputable maker), all in a solid case with lots of nice large (120mm or larger) case fans, and install a good gaming card. Then you will have an adequate workstation.

That said, do look at the system requirements of the specific design programs you will be using to be sure any card you gets supports them.