Upgrade Socket 775 Mb From Pentium Dual To Core 2 Quad

Have an older system which I want to upgrade. Specs say it's possible here:

http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/mb/introduction.php?S_ID=307#cpusupport

Problem is, after dropping the Q9400 quad core chip in the socket with some new paste, it won't boot. It does turn on and the fans run (3 fans). No beeps or any sounds of any kind, just fans.

This PC has a history of strange behavior during boots. Sometimes it will initialize and other times not (same thing no sounds), so I guess this could be the same deal. However, I am concerned about the BIOS and if it can handle the features of the new processor. Can this be a problem? PC is an aftermarket brand called Nanosystems. The company is long since out of business, so won't be any help from them.

Don't want to have to try the old processor again if I don't have to. It's a cool old machine, and with this processor it should be much better over the E2160 that was in there.

For the record I have tried:
-Reconnecting all power connections, including the processor power cable
-Multiple reboots

Specs:
Seasonic 300w psu
Biostar GF 7050V-M7

 

While a quality brand power supply, 300W is relatively small and considering we know nothing else about your system, insufficient power could be your problem. This is especially true if you have a hungry graphics card, lots of RAM, several drives and more.

Did you note the big red banner message at the bottom of your CPU link above?

 

I didn't see the banner. I guess that could be the problem. The manuf doesn't have a site anymore, but I see Biostar has a BIOS upgrade. I can try that, but I will have to get it to post first. Looks like I am stuck placing the E2160 in the socket again to see if it gets me to the post screen.

There is a HD 4350 graphics card that I added, but I think it only uses 15w. Otherwise, I don't think power is a problem. The quad core processor is 95w over the 65w of the dual core. I guess I will have to go back to the E2160 and see what I can come up with later.

The history of this PC is real. It's been really sketchy with cold boots, even with the dual core. Lately it has been better, but I usually keep it in sleep mode, so it's not a problem. The boot issues were there before I added the HD 4350 card. I can say that.

Is there anything special I should know about this process?

http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/manual/bios_update.pdf

The download file is a .BS file, so I have no idea if it will work. Is this a normal format or just something Biostar? I'll try to get more on the BIOS that is on the PC and post it here before I try to do a BIOS update.

 

You say manufacturer, Nanosystems is just an "assembler". If you know the exact Biostar motherboard model number, getting the upgrade from Biostar is most likely just fine. I say most likely because some assemblers been known to modify OEM boards. The big assemblers (HP, Dell, etc.) are notorious... err... I mean known for that.

As far as anything special when updating the BIOS; not really. It is always risky so I normally suggest making sure you have a current backup of any data you don't want to lose. And note a power outage during a BIOS update can brick a motherboard. So I always recommend running all computers off a "good" UPS with AVR. Short of that, don't do it during a storm.

Note that boot problems are often caused by a failing PSU.

 

On hold with this for a couple of more weeks. I upgraded the RAM and the PC is ready, but a heatsink mounting screw is bent and broken, so I am waiting for a new set.

You might be right about the PSU. However, I replaced the older processor in the socket, and it does for now post with the dual core. I know the PSU could explain the boot/post problems I have had previously though.

I turned the PC on without the heatsink for just a few seconds with my finger on the processor to make sure it didn't overheat. It was on for about 5 seconds, and it found everything. This causes me to think the reason that the quad isn't noticed is that the newer processor has features that aren't supported by the current BIOS. The core 2 quad is a in a separate line of processors from the Pentium dual core, so it wouldn't surprise me if this is why it won't post with that processor mounted.

My question is whether the BIOS can be flashed. Yes, it's an assembler PC, but the assemblers, like the mainstream PC builders (HP/Asus/etc.), do have their own answers for BIOS sometimes (also they keep drivers on their site and so on sometimes). This causes me to be concerned somewhat about using the Biostar BIOS I found on the m/b site (maybe it's different or could wreck the m/b?). As I mentioned, the assembler doesn't have a site now, so not sure the BIOS on the PC can be upgraded. Honestly, I'm not 100% worried about borking the board, so I might try the Biostar BIOS anyway. I can come up with something if it all goes wrong.

Once I get the PC back up, I will take pictures of the BIOS screen and BIOS settings and maybe someone will be able to advise on whether to give the BIOS update a try based on the pics.

 

I don't recommend you do that again. A CPU can overheat in just a few "clock-cycles". Considering even the E2160 runs at 1.8 billion clock-cycles in every second, if the thermal protection function of the CPU was faulty, the CPU could go from cold to excessively over heated before your finger sensed it was getting warm.

This is absolutely true and why, with factory built systems, I always recommend getting BIOS updates from the builder, not the motherboard maker.

That said, that is more typical of the big makers (HP, Dell, Acer, etc.) and not so much by the smaller makers. This is because it is only worth it when there are many units. HP, Dell and Acer sell millions of units so proprietary parts pays off for them. If me, I might risk it - especially if the BIOS update program lets me backup the old BIOS first.

 

Thanks. I'll take a look and see if I can back up the BIOS. I'll post some pics of what's in there once I can get the heat sink attached.

That's interesting about the processor. Hope I didn't fry it, but it seems OK. I reasoned that if I could not feel the heat then the heat sink wouldn't have been helping anyway. It barely got warm to the touch in the 5 or so seconds it was on. Guess I will find out. If the worst happened, well, those processors are about $5 these days I think. Nonetheless I absolutely don't want to be wrecking processors, and I won't be trying it again. I was nervous I promise.

I will probably risk the update but I want to 100% research it first. Maybe Nanosystems used the Biostar BIOS. There isn't a manuf splash screen, and I can't recall if the text on the post screen says it's a Nanosystems BIOS or what it says. It's fairly archaic just showing the initialization of the processor and drives.

 

It is probably Award or American Megatrends Inc. BioStar does not make their own. They just brand and modify it for their motherboards. If Nanosystems did anything, they would have branded it for something unique to Nanosystems - hopefully nothing more than their logo.

 

If you don't have this BIOS update, a later model CPU probably will not boot.


N73VM828.BS Update CPU micro code.(with Biostar logo) 1048576 2008-08-28

http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/mb/introduction.php?S_ID=307#download

 

BTW, does the mobo looks just like the picture on the BioStar website? Model number and all?

And, is the BIOS PROM next to the PCIe x1 slot removable?

 

You should be able to flash the BIOS, but you not the have the 2core P4 in place to do it, I think. Then change CPUs

In my Gigabyte m/b, you need to have and upgraded to BIOS to boot a quad core CPU (the CPU support page actually tell you what the minimum BIOS revision is needed for each supported CPU); it will not boot if you merely have the BIOS version sufficient to boot a dual core P4.

(When my m/b did not boot I thought this might be the problem, but it turned out that one of the DIMMs had come loose...obviously you have checked such things)

Dumb_Question
28.February.2017

 

mekanic, yes I have downloaded this update. Not sure how I will flash it yet though. When I can boot in a couple of weeks with the dual core in there I will take a look at the BIOS and get some pictures.

The board is the same as the one shown. It's version 6.1 of the board so there might be some slight differences (v 6.0 in the pic), but when I look at the picture it looks almost 100% the same. The chip just south of the RAM slots doesn't rise above the board level on this one I have, but otherwise everything looks the same and in the same place.

Think I see what you mean when referring to the BIOS PROM. On the pic that would be next to the top screw hole near the x1 slot? It does look like it could be removed, but I baven't ever tried that before. Were you thinking that replacing it with a chip containing the correct BIOS could be an option?

Dumb_Question. Thanks. When you say it won't boot with the quad, did you see a blank screen on your PC? That's what I got with the quad core...kind of like there wasn't a BIOS on the PC. Biostar support is not as good as Gigabyte. I only saw one download for the board for the upgrade and nothing saying which upgrade is required for each processor. I can only hope the one update updates for the quad I guess.

 

oops ! see below

 

IIRC (it was a while ago, project is waiting.... ) I got a black screen. But, as I explained, this boot failure was not due to incorrect BIOS

But you might try this It has this file NF73V-M7_080222_QB.exe (I'm not sure what this is, m/b manual ? If so, it might tell you which is the BIOS chip, and possibly whether it can be swapped) and the BIOS update manual (pdf) as well the updated BIOS [CPU microcode](as in the mechanic's post above). I chose XP 32bit for you, but you'd have to choose the OS you are using. - in the last resort, read the manual You've probably seen it though. I accessed it through the link you posted in your OP.

It seems you need only the one BIOS update, presumably the most recent.

Dumb_Question
28.February.2017

 

Yes, I saw the file you mentioned and that is the documentation I have. It's an .exe but it contains 3 pdfs. I looked and didn't see anything about whether the BIOS chip can be swapped. The pics show what I was able to find about updating the BIOS in the documentation. I am kind of impressed with the documentation for this board, considering its age. It's good that there is a 3rd solid choice other than Gigabyte and Asus for aftermarket boards.




I selected W7 x64, so I think I have the correct download. I'll double check before I try the update.

 

You haven't forgotten the fourth manual, the one for the BIOS upgrade.

As a matter of interest, how much RAM have you got on your board, and what type is it ? I've been looking for 4GB DDR2 PC2-6400 low density DIMMs, but they're extortionate

Dumb_Question
28.February.2017

 

Yes, I have the instructions for the update. I don't have the BIOS update utility, but I will look around for it when the parts I need arrive. I think I will go with the flash method anyway. Not sure if the .BS file is what the BIOS is looking for for the update, but I can cross that bridge when I get there once I have the system up and running and booting normally. Then I'll go back into BIOS and look into using the flash utility. I have a flash drive, but I may have to reformat it to FAT32 not certain.

Board only supports 4 GB (2 sockets x 2 GB). It had 2 1 GB sticks, so I bought a couple of 2 GB sticks for about $12 and added those this week.

I see what you mean about the prices for 4 GB sticks. Very high in comparison to the 2 GB sticks.

 

If the PROM is removable, that means you can still flash the PROM even if the system does brick. Haven't used it in a while, but I still have a tool that connects via RS232/serial port and hosts PROMs of various pin numbers.

Or, you can order a PROM from BioStar (provided they still support the board) with the latest BIOS if the worst occurs. I'd definitely look into that. It's quite likely that the updated microcode is required for your new CPU to function with that board.

 

mekanic...thanks. It's an old board. Don't think they support it anymore.

Interested in this device you have. I will keep that in mind, although I am not familiar with RS232 port usage. How does the device plug into the system?

Really appreciate the knowledge. I've only flashed BIOS a few times and only once outside of Windows. I flashed it twice in Windows on other HP systems using an HP kit back when it was less frowned upon. It worked both times for me by just taking precautions/closing everything and letting the system get really quiet.

 

It's the VGA looking port connected to the COM port on a system board. Runs on serial (D-sub) zeroes and ones, on or off, one bit at a time. The early vehicle "computers" were more PLC than PC. You may know it as DE9.

 

It would have to be extremely old to have a removable "PROM" device. But understand, if actually a PROM, you cannot reprogram it anyway. A PROM device is programmed once then that's it. Data written to a PROM is permanent, and cannot be changed.

To be able to reprogram, the device would have to be an EPROM or EEPROM. For this reason, on very early motherboards, to reprogram or update the BIOS we had to order a replacement BIOS chip from the motherboard maker - assuming one was available. And they were not cheap.

But even if an EPROM is used, it would still have to be a very old motherboard - like 25 plus years or more. A EPROM (Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory) can only be reprogrammed by first, erasing the current coding. That can only be done by exposure to a very strong source of UV light, like a mercury vapor light or one of these EPROM Erasers. That means there has to be some "window" or lens to see into the chip. For that they typically have a quartz lens on top of the silicon chip making them easily identifiable. Then the new BIOS code would be "burned" into the device, typically with another hardware device, an EPROM Programmer.

Because motherboard makers want BIOS coding to be easily updated by the end-users, at least 20 years ago they started using EEPROM devices Electronically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory). In more recent years, motherboard/chipset makers switched to "Flash" memory which is still a type of EEPROM, but cost less. The use of Flash memory is how the expression of flashing the BIOS came about.

Regardless, programmable devices on modern motherboards are typically surface mounted (soldered, not socketed) because they are re-programmable and don't need to be replaced. And also because surface mounting is much cheaper and easier for the manufacturers. And chips with sockets take up more space than chips alone. There may be exceptions but they are few.

 

Over my head here Digerati but thanks for the information. It is an interesting topic. I wasn't sure the chip I was looking at was the PROM nor that it is removable. It is one of those spider looking circuits that sits up above the board, and it looked to me that it might be removable. I had no plans to attempt to remove it or change it out honestly as complicated as it sounded to me.

This is a c2007 board. It's older but not ancient. The BIOS has a flash utility according to the manual, so I am leaning to trying that. First I need to get the PC back up and running which could be a couple of more weeks while I wait for the screws to arrive from Hong Kong lol. Amazing what can be bought from Hong Kong if one is willing to wait a month or so.

 

If it plugs into a socket, it should be removable. If it is soldered to the board, it is not removable, except by a qualified technician who has kept his or soldering skills up. That said, removable does not mean there are replacements out there. It is just not cost effective for motherboard makers to keep an inventory of parts for older (way out of warranty) products. It looks like that board came out in 2007 and cost well under $100, and of course, is not compatible with current technology hardware. So they would have little incentive to keep replacement parts. Neither would the BIOS makers, I am afraid.

 

I believe most BIOS ROMs (I use 'ROM' as a catch all for any kind of non-eraseable read-only memory chip before the advent the technology used in SSDs, i.e., ROM, PROM, EPROM, EEPROM etc) are not removable, that is, they are designed not to be removed (correct me if I am wrong).

On some boards the BIOS can be updated into what I assume is battery backed RAM - anyway, the original BIOS can be returned by placing a jumper across two special pins.

The two paragraph above are things that I assume everyone else is more familiar with than I am.

On my sckt 775 Gigabyte board, you do have to 'flash' a different BIOS version into the BIOS ROM, though I can't remember how it's done.

Dumb_Question
1.March.2017

 

Although I can't remember how it's done, there's a section in the manual IIRC on how to flash the BIOS. I think there's a software tool accessible in the BIOS set-up menu, or maybe it's a Gigabyte app in the main Windows which you set, and then reboot/power down then power up ? I could look it up (and prove myself completely wrong !)

AltBo, doesn't the BIOS update manual describe it for this Biostar board ?

Dumb_Question
1.March.2017

 

Pardon for leaving off the "E".

Both of my Sabertooth motherboards have removable EEPROMS. Original and Rev. 3.0

 

DQ...yes, there is an explaination, but I am sure I will have questions about which method to use. There is an option to flash the drive from inside Windows. It really just starts in Windows and then finishes with reboots. Sounds like what you are talking about. See pic for explaination:


I found this link that I think is the utility I am looking for:

http://drivers.softpedia.com/get/BI...7050V-M7-Ver-6x-Bios-Flash-Utility-1933.shtml

Once I get the PC running again, I will download the file and then install this updater just to take a look and see if it will recognize the file I have. I'm fairly confident this is the tool that would have been on the drivers disk originally. This site has been reliable for me when I needed the site for something:

http://drivers.softpedia.com/get/BI...7050V-M7-Ver-6x-Bios-Flash-Utility-1933.shtml

There is another way that uses the Flash utility built into the BIOS, but that means a flash drive, and the only one I have is about 90% full. I'd like to see if I can do this without copying all of that data to a drive. It's really slow being USB 2.0.

 

At least it makes a back-up of your old BIOS for you !

Dumb_Question
2.March.2017

 

Finally got this done. Had to wait a month for the pins from Hong Kong .

Updater worked from within Windows. I backed up the original BIOS then updated and changed out the processor. At first the PC would boot and run for 5 min and freeze, but I reset the BIOS to defaults and that fixed the problem.

Anyone looking for a good project PC, the socket 775 motherboards that support the quad cores can be picked up in a PC with a pentium or pentium dual in them for cheap. Not all of them support the upgrade though. The quad Q9400 I have put in this one only cost $16.00 delivered on ebay, and it benches up there with some of the i series processors. Boosting the RAM from 2 to 4 GB helped alot too. Nice machine now.

Thanks for the help. Couldn't have done it without you guys.

 

NICE!

:major smilie

 

Great! I am glad it worked and thanks for posting your followup!