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US Gun Laws

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Nedlamar, Mar 22, 2010.

  1. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    A dicey subject I know so please lets simply keep this to an educated light hearted opnions thread :)

    I am asking this question out of curiosity more than anything, I know something of the US gun laws and have witnessed many an argument about them.

    Reading Fred's post just spurred me to ask this.

    Mainly aimed at people like Fred and TeeCee who clearly have an interest in firearms and mainly at Americans with or without an interest.

    If you don't know the laws, please keep your opinions limited to questions :)

    What do you guys think of the US gun laws in general?
    Obviously there are those who obey the laws and those who don't like in pretty much anything.
    But do you think some of the laws such as being able to carry a handgun in a supermarket and the ease of obtaining a license are a little light?

    I often read about how someone bought an M16 or an M4 Carbine and think to myself "Ok thats a military grade weapon and requires specific training to use safely and this guy bought one just because he could afford one, or he found a gang of dear carrying AK47's lol"

    My understanding is Fully Auto weapons are not available and high grade weapons like those mentioned require more than a simple fire arms license, while hand guns and rifles require less than a driving test requires.

    I also find it alarming that gun crime in the US is higher (insurmountably higher) than pretty much anywhere in the civilised world, do you think this is a direct reflection of light gun laws?

    My question is genuine and like I said, aimed at those who KNOW the laws well and are responsible with these weapons.

    Please do not throw in the "It's our god given right" because a US president has never been god lol
    And please do not throw in the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" because guns make it a hell of a lot easier for people to kill people lol

    Please please remember, keep it civil :)
    I'm looking for genuinely educated opinions and to enhance my knowledge of things. :)
     
  2. brandypeppy

    brandypeppy MajorGeek

    I think there remains something unique in the culture of this country, esp. when it comes to gun laws. Even people who don't own and have never owned a gun feel strongly about the right to.

    But there is a constant battle over this and I think that is what pushes some people to the rather extreme desire to open carry. I own guns myself, though I would never desire to strap one on to go to the supermarket. Nevertheless, it is the process of incrementalism that concerns gun rights advocates. They know that is they give an inch this year, there will be another inch next year, and so forth. So not only are they unwilling to give an inch, they want to move the bar in the opposite direction as well, and that is really just to guarantee they don't lose anything.

    They hear and see what is going on in the rest of the world regarding personal gun rights, and they, we, don't want that here.

    You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. :-D

    Love that line!!! :wave:wave:wave
     
  3. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    Ok, so may I add another question? :)

    In your opinion, what is so important about the right to bare arms, given that the original idea was to bare arms in defense against the government (I think I'm right there) way back in the Confederacy days?

    I can understand boys being boys and wanting to go to the shooting range and shoot stuff, I'd love doing that too, but this whole thing about being able to keep arms in your home unsecured and loaded, ready to defend as it were, I just don't understand it.
    Especially given the amount of accidental gun related deaths.

    So why is it so important to own a gun? and keep it at home?

    Is it just a "It's our right and too many other things are changing"?

    Also I don't really see it as unique, since many countries allow freedom of gun use, just most of them are not really members of the civilised world.
    Please don't take that as a dig, just voicing opinions.... I want an MP5 :( lol
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2010
  4. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    lol I just learnt that the original idea of "Freemen to bare arms" was an English idea in the 12th century, damn English lol

    I also learnt that the 2nd ammendment states "Bare arms" and "A well regulated malitia"
    For the purposes of defending the nation.
    But this is where I get confused,the Oxford Dictionary defines the phrase "To bear arms" as "to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight." and "a well regulated malitia" is a trained and disciplined unit of defense, meaning you should not only be trained in use of the firearm but of military tactics aswell?

    I think the original idea has long since passed and this is why I'm asking opinions from Americans, because the original reason is no longer an issue, yet the US people feel so strongly about keeping this right.
    And I don't understand why......please edumacate me :)

    Ny the way, I find this all very interesting :)
    I'm on a history kick at the moment lol
     
  5. collinsl

    collinsl MajorGeek

    Militia received very little or no military tactic training. Their main job was to grab a gun, run to the nearest cover, and hold off the attackers as long as possible.
     
  6. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    Yeah I guess thats true, nice job eh.
    I think I was thinking more about the military malitia such as the Territorials or Army reserves, where as the 2nd amendment refers more to townsfolk ready and able to defend if need be.
    Still, thats not really true today lol

    I dunno, I don't really care whether or not the laws are kept or changed or removed as it doesn't affect me, I'm just curious as to what Americans think of the laws and justification of such laws.
    Being those who live there and have their lives impacted by these laws for reasons of god or bad.
     
  7. brandypeppy

    brandypeppy MajorGeek

    Is it just a "It's our right and too many other things are changing"?

    No offense taken. :)

    I certainly think that's a factor. Also, the founding fathers wrote the constitution, and the amendments were added to get all of the colonies to sign on. This clause has been a bone of contention since almost the day it was penned. But it is and remains part of what this country is and has been upheld on numerous occassions by our Supreme Court. And the latest polls show only 39% of Americans favor stricter control. So it is not likely to change any time soon. Most politicians know that favoring more gun laws is a good/sure way to have to find real work.

    It probably seem a little barbaric/reckless to those of you in countries where there are strict gun ownership laws, and that is understandable. But in the pysche of the people of the U.S., this is our last line of defense against an oppressive and dictatorial government, this is how the country was founded in the first place. :wave:wave:wave
     
  8. Just Playin

    Just Playin MajorGeek

    Most places frown on openly carrying firearms in supermarkets and such places. Quite a few bar unconcealed weapons from their premises. Concealed carry permits require an application to a law enforcement official and a national criminal background check.

    As far as your statements about M4s and M16s, you have a few misconceptions. The M16 and the M4 are not available to civilians in the US. What you are referring to is the probably the AR15, which is not a military weapon. It just looks like one. Anyway, the term 'military grade weapon' is meaningless as it covers the English longbow and the Japanese katana sword also. Neither conjures the specter of menace you imply. If one pays a $200 federal firearms tax and pass an FBI background check, one can legally own a machine gun. Of course since the sale of firearms manufactured after 1986 are illegal, the pool of available machine guns is small and the prices prohibitively high.

    Gun crime is high here but violent crime in general is high. We have a rather violent culture. I hear the comparisons between the US and UK concerning gun laws and gun violence. Far fewer people are stabbed and kicked to death in the UK and I doubt it's the result of UK laws banning knives and feet.

    There are no simple answers. If we banned guns tomorrow, we would still stab chop, beat, strangle and kill each other in many other ways at alarming rates.
     
  9. ASUS

    ASUS MajorGeek

    The US has too many guns Laws
     

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  10. ASUS

    ASUS MajorGeek

    Its more important than ever to have the right to own a Gun
    The US is being over run with Gang Bangers and Illegal Aliens
     

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  11. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    CCL (Concealed Carry License) in my state require a criminal background check, and a class. You are only allowed to carry guns in certain places.

    And you have to get a special federal license to legally own a fully automatic weapon.

    As far as the militia aspect of it, depends on what the government wants to try to do. :-D The Japanese were a bit afraid of my gun toting ancestors during WWII.

    "What do you guys think of the US gun laws in general?"

    They work well.

    "But do you think some of the laws such as being able to carry a handgun in a supermarket and the ease of obtaining a license are a little light?"

    Ok, what is wrong with that? You are carrying a tool. Perhaps there is a lot more anger in the supermarkets where you are? :-D

    "I often read about how someone bought an M16 or an M4 Carbine and think to myself "Ok thats a military grade weapon and requires specific training to use safely and this guy bought one just because he could afford one, or he found a gang of dear carrying AK47's lol""

    You can't (unless you spend a ton of money on a federal license), own an M-16 or AK-47, as those are full auto.

    You can buy the semi auto versions, AR-15 and such.

    "I also find it alarming that gun crime in the US is higher (insurmountably higher) than pretty much anywhere in the civilised world, do you think this is a direct reflection of light gun laws?"

    I think that is a societal problem, that I won't go into here. Look at the gun crimes in DC, and New York, who have the strictest gun laws, vs other states or cities with less restrictive laws.

    "Please do not throw in the "It's our god given right" because a US president has never been god lol"

    It is my constitutional right, as a citizen of this country. Plus, there are many instances where guns have been used to prevent crimes, and have saved lives, when used by law abiding citizens.

    "And please do not throw in the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" because guns make it a hell of a lot easier for people to kill people lol"

    Ok, proud gun owner for around 25 years. None of my guns have been involved in a crime, and a couple helped prevent some crimes.

    Also, keep in mind, that historically, we are a pretty new nation. Heck, we rebelled and beat off one of the most powerful nations in the world at the time. Our government was setup with many checks and balances. 2/3 of the house and senate can override the president, the president can veto bills.... Plus the supreme court can rule a law is unconstitutional.

    And also, many of us have the strong desire to protect our family from harm, and yes, even up to using a gun to defend ourselves. We have the Castle Law here, I don't have to retreat if I am in my home. And, if a law is unconstitutional, I don't have to obey it. How far you want to go with that is up to the individual.

    From what I have read about England, heck they are required to retreat, are not allowed to defend themselves.

    Crime is illegal by definition. Why would adding more laws against it stop a criminal? I will take a loaded gun in my hand vs a criminal's decision on how many laws he wishes to violate.
     
  12. ASUS

    ASUS MajorGeek

    Can you tell?
    I support the Right to Bear Arms:guns
     

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  13. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    @Brandy.... I think thats the clearest argument for the way it is I've ever encountered. Thank you.


    Ah, so stopping on the M16 thing, these people are simply exaggerating the weapon they have actually bought? That makes more sense lol
    But I have to disagree with the comparison to a Katana or Longbow, we're talking Modern Military grade weapons that are far more effective than either of those lol, even in the right hands......which was kind of my point, but since you say these rifles are not available it's a moot point.

    As for the level of violence in the UK, clearly you know little of the Nation lol, not so much now admittedly but I remember the 80's a football violence, we're not talking about just a few fans fighting, we're talking about full blown battles, sharpend pennys thrown across stadiums, darts, stanley (exacto) knives on large scales, enough to put any gang fight to shame. The UK gun laws were fairly loose until the Dunblane Massacre at which point the laws just basically shut down. No more gun crime lol, the Knife amnesty also reduced stabbings and knife related violence.
    But personally I think the UK has just mellowed.

    I actually think much of the "Outside" view of the US guns laws are largely due to a lack of knowledge, I've heard many things I know to be untrue, people saying things like "In the US you can just walk into a store and buy an Uzi" , I know thats not true.
    But I do believe that the laws should be stiffer than they are, the biggest problem I see with it is a proven fact....most gun related deaths are accidental, trouble with a gun is in a rage with your finger on the trigger.........all you have to do is squeeze.......and there's a mistake that costs lives in more ways than 1.

    I also figure it's somewhat due to the obvious "Fear" (for want of a better word) that Americans are forced to live by, I often read and hear or see the way news and Government tell the people how much danger they are in from this threat or that threat. This isn't me having a pop either, this is my own observation. I've also witnessed many Americans talk about the day they get invaded or some such. Neither the UK nor Canada thinks like that which is probably largely why we don't feel the need to protect ourselves. Thats what our military are paid for lol

    But thanks for the info guys, keep it coming, I like this clarification, I also realise that it varies State to State.

    And once again, I hope nothing I've said is taken offensively, it's certainly not meant that way :)

    I should also add that I would love to have a gun display collection and am/always have been fascinated by weapons of all kinds..... mainly why I would like a FireArms license, I also plan to restart my blade collection when I have some funds coming in again.
     
  14. thesmokingun

    thesmokingun MajorGeek

    We have a very competent and very powerful military, but add 54 million gun owners and 270 million guns and you've got quite the reason not to provoke us. :-D
     
  15. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    lol where did this come from.
    Gotta break a couple of points down here.

    As your later comment suggests, this is not an easy license to obtain, but the mere fact you CAN obtain one is IMO way over the top, why on gods green earth would anyone need a fully automatic assault rifle?


    Not at all, I don't fear the supermarket and nor should I, but I would feel uncomfortable with the knowledge that the person next to me could have a small cannon in his/her jacket. No need.

    Good point well made.

    Thats fine, I just hate the "It's my GOD given right" lol

    Kudos to you sir, I mentioned you in the first post because I can clearly see you respect the deadly chunks of metal you own and are obviously responsible with them.

    True, I often think of the Sates as a Teenager in terms of Country's age.
    Oh and don't forget that Country you beat off was also at war in Europe at the time ;) j/k , we ain't getting into that lol

    This is where my point about fear in the above post comes from, protect your family from what?

    Not sure on that, as far as I know if you are attacked them you defend yourself by whatever means available. Deal with the law suits afterwards.

    Well I guess that statement simply says there is too much crime in the states. I never think about having to face a criminal, I have on several occasions, hell I've had a gun pointed at my face twice along with a blade held to my throat and several other instances. I think me pulling a gun in any one of them would have just made matters worse.... I'd also probably be in jail or worse instead of chatting to you lol

    But again, thanks for the opinions, I figured yours would be among the strongest from what I've read.
    Also gotta tell you I'm a little jealous of your collection lol

    Man, this is the most civilised conversation I've ever had about this, thank you all so far for keeping it calm and answering my questions. :)
     
  16. LauraR

    LauraR MajorGeeks Super-Duper Administrator Staff Member

    Quoted for emphasis.

    Just a reminder to keep it civil.:) We got rid of Hot Topics for a reason so make sure this doesn't turn into anything like that.
     
  17. iwunderdownunder

    iwunderdownunder First Sergeant

    you are a brave person Nedlamar to mention gun laws and America in this forum.there was a good one going when they had the hot button topics forum and its like banging you head against a brick wall,you will get those who are pro guns and those very few who are against.i can understand what you are trying to point out why the need for self loading rapid fire weapons,but with a culture like America that was born from blood and violence you will never win an argument as why they feel the need to possess these weapons.whether it be for self protection or so called sporting activities such as hunting.its like their nuclear arsenal.they have them in multitudes because they can have them who in this world is going to tell them they cant.as to say what president now or in the future is going to tell the population they can know longer have guns or at least restrict the type of firearm they can own.it wont happen in this century or the next.
     
  18. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    Exactly my reason for repeating it :)

    Besides, I like you guys and wouldn't want to argue over something none of us have control over :)

    I'm just enjoying the knowledge, I know it's all out on the net but it makes more sense when backed up by opinion.

    @Wunder.... lol No not brave, just have a thirst for knowledge and a healthy respect for members here, I wouldn't even try to change people's minds, no point. Anything that may read like that is simply my way of trying to gain clarification :)
    Over the last few years I've learnt a great deal about life outside the UK, just expanding and since I only live 30 miles from the US, I would like to know whats what over there before I go for a visit lol
     
  19. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    "As your later comment suggests, this is not an easy license to obtain, but the mere fact you CAN obtain one is IMO way over the top, why on gods green earth would anyone need a fully automatic assault rifle?"

    Actually, I think it would be a military rifle. And the need, I don't know, usually collectors, very expensive to get.

    "Not at all, I don't fear the supermarket and nor should I, but I would feel uncomfortable with the knowledge that the person next to me could have a small cannon in his/her jacket. No need."

    Perhaps, but haveing a gun and using it illegally are different subjects. You might feel differently if a crazy criminal with a gun showed up. Cell phones are great, but sometimes life happens fast.

    "This is where my point about fear in the above post comes from, protect your family from what?"

    Anyone who makes the unwise choice to enter my property illegally. Do you buy fire insurance because you plan on your home burning to the ground? I plan for the worst case, and prepare as I can afford. Home invasion likely, well heck no. But, if someone tries to bust into my home, the time to plan is before, not after they break in. I have in the past defended my hotel room from a bungler. Nobody got shot or unfortunately arrested, but I protected myself and property, and criminal ran away.

    Plus, I love shooting guns. Is a hobby.

    And, I enjoy going to the range and shooting my guns.

    "Not sure on that, as far as I know if you are attacked them you defend yourself by whatever means available. Deal with the law suits afterwards."

    Will take my states Castle Law over that any day. If they are inside, I can shoot. Now, I can, but do I? I value life, would try to subdue, but if they are in my home, I won't take many risks before I shoot.

    "Well I guess that statement simply says there is too much crime in the states. I never think about having to face a criminal, I have on several occasions, hell I've had a gun pointed at my face twice along with a blade held to my throat and several other instances. I think me pulling a gun in any one of them would have just made matters worse.... I'd also probably be in jail or worse instead of chatting to you lol"

    Nice chatting to you as well. But having the gun does not mean you must use it. It is an option. A gun is a tool. Can be used for many things, some good, some bad.

    Is there not more crime than gun crime in the world? I will go out on a limb here and speculate that there are more traffic tickets issued in the US than gunshot victims from people who legally owned guns.
     
  20. iwunderdownunder

    iwunderdownunder First Sergeant

    i should be more careful with what i say, so as not to be taken the wrong way.after all there is a major culture gap between the USA and Australia.
     
  21. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England

    Bloodthirsty as we may be, not many beheadings going on here.

    :-D
     
  22. iwunderdownunder

    iwunderdownunder First Sergeant

    interesting thing you pointed out Fred but hardly an era of modern well educated democracies we have today
     
  23. Tux_Rules

    Tux_Rules Corporal

    With Michigan's Casle Doctrine, they nor do I have to be inside ;) :

    http://www.ammoland.com/2009/11/03/a-review-of-castle-doctrine-no-retreat-legislation/

    Fred_G, you have handled the questions quite well and there isn't much I myself could add other than maybe the idea that an "assault" weapon is, in my opinion, a political term used to make it sound worse than what it is and to scare people. I don't see a reason to call them "assault" weapons other than the "dress ups". They are still chambered to shoot normal ammo, and a person could theoretically do just as mush damage with what is not called an "assault" weapon as with one.

    I have my fair share of firearms, have owned them for 25 years and have never had an accident or had one "go rogue" and start shooting on it's own.;) but I was also trained on how to handle them before I got them and was taught to respect them. I believe there are to many laws on the books as all they do is keep the law abiding citizen confused and have the potential to easily turn said law abiding citizen into a criminal. The criminal does NOT care what laws are on the books as that is why they are criminals, not law abiding citizens.

    Taking my guns or making it harder for me to get them just means that it will be easier for the criminals to do me harm if they so choose. It would take about 10 minutes for help (911) to arrive if I called, and alot can happen in that time. The difference of me having a firearm for protection or not having one could very well be life or death.
     
  24. Rikky

    Rikky Wile E. Coyote - One of a kind

    Just because we don't have machine guns doesn't mean we have to retreat,we're British we adapt :major

    http://break.com/index/rolled-up-magazine-self-defense.html?matchid=

    I'm going to the range this weekend to let off some steam,a new guy has joined with twin commemoration copies of the readers digest,it holds 200 pages,double bound,embossed and laminated covers :drool
     
  25. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    Iwunder, I would have to question the 'education' of many politicians today. :-D My point was that many countries have bloody pasts.

    Tux, I am not sure on the details on the law in Louisiana, but my basic understanding is if they are coming towards you, you don't have to run.

    Rikky, is that a the full auto magazine, or is it semi auto?;) All kinds of common things can be used as weapons. Guess I am lazy, I choose the most effective, and easiest one.
     
  26. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    I see, ok well I can't say I'll ever agree that whether difficult or not , owning a full auto rifle should not be legal in any form unless you are military or some such.

    lol I don't have a cell phone, I see your point but to be honest I feel without proper instruction and training not only in using a gun but in dealing with a threat, then all it does is add fuel to a fire. I know techniques for dissarming someone and have once had to use them where a fire arm is involved.
    I guess thats preference.
    I just see too many oportunities for things to go very very wrong when a second gun is added to a possible situation.
    It's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other I guess.


    I agree, I wouldn't hesitate to defend my family , legal or not. But shooting someone?......maybe, would have to be extreme circumstances. You also have to remember, not everyone may be as calm natured in a sistuation as you are and it's these people that cause the most harm. Bringing us back to my original question of gun laws. I think there are too many people with them who are simply not capable of owning them safely.

    Ah, see I join you there, am looking to do that myself, boy and their toys eh :-D

    True, but as I said earlier, I feel it would have made the situations worse, could have caused panic in my attacker causing him to fire, or I could have been forced to fire, could have gone off in a struggle, killing accidently. That was more my thinking rather than me just pulling a gun, saying something cool and shooting him lol

    Oh I'm sure, but I also think traffic laws are too light as well, as someone who's been on the road for 17 years without an accident and only 1 ticket it annoys me to have to pay so much in insurence because other people can't use a vehicle properly. And the funny thing is, I rarely drive the speed limit like most people.

    And thanks again Fred for keeping civil, I'm sure this is something you feel very passionate about and things could quite easily be missunderstood on both our parts :)

    @Rikky........Well said good sir! We're British......we could chuck stale crumpets at em' ;) lol, no seriously, Rikky is right, plus the fact that unless you live in a nasty area, beeing invaded isn't something we think about much. If it happens we will improvise and adapt. Always have, always will.

    @Wunder.... You bloody Aussies have a culture gap between yourselves :p j/k, I have strong ties with Australia and yes there is a big difference, but then I live in Canada just 30 miles from the States and there's a large culture gap here too. The states is very unique in many ways, their ideals are beautiful in theory, unfortunately I personally think the ideals have been lost in many places over time. Like many places, but more so in the US probably mainly due to the large numbers of multi cultures. Britain and Aus have stayed pretty much the same because we are both still 90%+ English and Australian.
    As for politicians, shoot them all and let god sort em out lol
     
  27. Rikky

    Rikky Wile E. Coyote - One of a kind

    Well I was joking actually :-D Using a magazine to defend yourself is the stupidest thing I've ever seen that's why I posted it.

    If someone wanted my seat rather than attack them with a magazine I'd hide from them under it,if there wasn't already a French guy there...
     
  28. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    I missed this lol, it is true the British are far from a peaceful nation, people keep saying the US was bread from violence, true....but Britain has hardly been bread from pointing fingers at each other. We have been one of the most brutal and violent nations in history, inland and abroad. I'm very proud to be British but I acknowledge the incredibly violent way in which the Nation and at one time Empire was forged. No mercy, we want it, we take it was the thought process behind Britain (mainly England) for centuries. We are without a doubt, much more peaceful and less dominating and fearsome as we once were. The British Empire finally ceased to be when we handed Hong Kong back.
    But it's the 21st century, we damn well should be calmer lol
    We have enough trouble keeping our own country in check, we don't need others to look after too lol

    We are far from innocent but this thread is about Gun laws in the States, maybe we should start another thread examining Britain's argumentative history :-D

    Although Fred, we don't behead people anymore, that was a few years ago ;)
    Although there's some small towns where they will stone you with Hot Cross Buns if you try to marry a local girl :-D
     
  29. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    "I agree, I wouldn't hesitate to defend my family , legal or not. But shooting someone?......maybe, would have to be extreme circumstances. You also have to remember, not everyone may be as calm natured in a sistuation as you are and it's these people that cause the most harm. Bringing us back to my original question of gun laws. I think there are too many people with them who are simply not capable of owning them safely."

    See, that must be were the Americans are just wired differently. I don't want to kill someone. But extreme? The extreme is brought by the criminal who breaks into my home. I would hope the person would leave, or lie down and wait for the police, but I would not hesitate to shoot someone who broke into my home.

    A lot different mentality if I had a gun outside of my home.

    @ Rikky, is it true that the magnum, or large print versions of the Reader's Digest are illegal? :-D
     
  30. iwunderdownunder

    iwunderdownunder First Sergeant

    G'yday again all firstly yes i know America is not alone when it comes to they way of its conception.I don't think the question is about gun or firearm ownership its more why the need to have rapid fire weapons.I know that the criminals will more than likely be able to gain access to these weapons as they can still acquire them here illegally in Australia. As seen recently here an illegal weapons factory where they were making uzi style machine guns and distributing them among a certain ethic group.
    Myself i just can see the thrill or joy of standing in a field firering a couple of dozen rounds into a wooden target just for fun.i suppose it takes a different mentality to do this.Even when i was in the military i found this to be quite boring.but to take a single shot bolt action weapon and try and group those shots together over a 1000 meters in the smallest diameter more of a challenge.
    As i have said in a previous post elsewhere gun control laws don't stop gun related crimes,they just limit the death toll.
    you are also right in saying that probably most gun owner's are responsible with there weapons,but when you see stories like the one recently with the young child shooting herself you stop and think maybe stricter gun control laws may have prevented this tragedy.
     
  31. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    "As i have said in a previous post elsewhere gun control laws don't stop gun related crimes,they just limit the death toll.
    you are also right in saying that probably most gun owner's are responsible with there weapons,but when you see stories like the one recently with the young child shooting herself you stop and think maybe stricter gun control laws may have prevented this tragedy."

    So, perhaps a single shot firearm would have not killed the child?

    Now I admit, I enjoy punching holes in paper. Spend most of my time working on tight groups, but sometimes, there is just a great time in shooting 30 rounds safely downrange, as fast as you can pull the trigger. :-D And I grouped them fairly well for a person that has not shot in a while, and normally shoot handguns, not an AR-15.

    Perhaps proper parenting would be more effective at keeping guns away from children, than some law passed that restricts responsible gun owners.
     
  32. iwunderdownunder

    iwunderdownunder First Sergeant

    To be honest with i don't think parenting skills were the issue more like the neglect of the parent to secure the weapon in question correctly,you must admit it would have been a lot more difficult for a child of that age to pick up loaded rifle and shoot herself.
    I don't know about the US but here in oz the most crucial part of the criteria to be able to have a license for a pistol which is a totally different license than a rifle is to have a lockable safe that is bolted to the floor and has been inspected and approved by the police force before the license is approved.
    I don't know maybe there needs to be a government department in America dedicated to changing the views and opinions of the way outsiders see the American culture.Because sitting here on the fence looking in it doesn't appear to be that great to me
     
  33. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    It is always sad to hear about a child getting killed like that.

    "To be honest with i don't think parenting skills were the issue more like the neglect of the parent to secure the weapon in question correctly"


    Poor gun safety, and if a child had access to a loaded gun, piss poor parenting, and an irresponsible gun owner. There is a reason I don't have kids.

    Gun ownership takes a lot of responsibility. Doubly so if you have children in your home.

    I have owned over the last 25 years many guns. Assault rifles, shotguns, handguns, never had one yet go rouge and shoot anyone.
     
  34. iwunderdownunder

    iwunderdownunder First Sergeant

    Well all said and done every body see's things differently so i think i might bow out gracefully before i dig myself in deeper.
     
  35. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    Bow out if you wish. I see something like that as a tragedy. Owning a gun is not a trivial thing, you should make sure it is secured.
     
  36. Spad

    Spad MajorGeek

    Interesting discussion. It's true there is a lot of gun crime in the US - but a very large percentage of it is criminal against criminal - such as gang related or drug related violence. Are there places in downtown Indianapolis I'd hesitate to go to in the dead of night unarmed - uh, yeah . . . but the same can be said of Montreal or Melbourne. Not just because of guns, but of the risk of crime in general.

    I have been around guns all my life; I've served in the military, and have been a police officer off and on since the early 80's - My father, in fact, was a Police officer for 37 years (retired in '99) and never once in all those years on the street had to draw his service weapon in the line of duty. . . ditto my service. I think some people get a skewed idea of life here in the U.S. I remember seeing a post in the late Hot topics section where the poster said "at least in my country I can go to the store and the movies in safety . . . " his point being we in the US cannot do those things. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    The bottom line is, we got guns and guns are here to stay. Gun control laws do nothing to curb gun violence, as the vast majority of gun violence is not committed by law abiding, licensed gun owners. I have no problem with requiring a prospective licensee to take a handgun use and safety course - you are, after all, required to take a test to drive a car. Gun accidents are tragic, and can be avoided.

    I do understand the reluctance of gun rights advocates to give in at all on restrictive legislation, because it's true the gun control zealots will take that inch, and keep pounding for more and more - they openly state the fact. The gun control zealot's position that the second amendment only refers to arming a militia is ridiculous, as any student of the writings and philosophy of the framers can tell you . . . it is also a proven fact in areas that have strict gun laws there are higher rates of crime, as opposed to areas with looser regulations - but the gun control advocates refuse to acknowledge this "inconvenient truth". It is this kind of blatant dishonesty that makes the gun rights lobby reluctant to give in at all.

    Now, I honestly think most gun control or outright ban advocates mean well, by and large. The difference is I think they see the world the way they want it to be, and not the way it really is. In their simple, innocent minds, banning guns means no one will have guns! Yippee! No more gun crime! But the rest of us know that isn't what would happen . . . the only people a ban would impact is the law abiding citizen, who isn't the problem anyway.

    And now, for something completely different . . . :-D

    Come again? I beg to differ, sir.

    My understanding of the birth of my country is a little different . . . if by blood and violence you refer to the treatment of native Americans then you have somewhat of a point - but the British, French, and to a lesser extent the Spanish had a hand in how that 200+ year tragedy played out - especially the British and the French . . . whose old-world wars spilled over into the new-world. Both nations actively recruited native American tribes to fight against each other and to attack the civilian populations of both . . . building generations of mutual enmity that lasted long after those wars and after we became a nation ourselves. Shameful, shameful part of our history, and not the only one . . . but it began before we became a nation. I understand Australia has a few skeletons in its closet also when it comes to native populations. If this is not what you were referring to, then please enlighten me . . . ;) Just kind of a sore point with me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2010
  37. iwunderdownunder

    iwunderdownunder First Sergeant

    G'day spad

    My sincerest apologies if my perception of the U.S offends you or angers you but its not like i am Robinson Crusoe when it comes to this type of opinion.I also agree that my country also has a few skeletons in the closet when it comes to the mistreatment of our indigenous people.
    But this is not the theme of the thread,i was merely pointing out the obsession that most Americans have with firearms and that it is something that has been there since it conception.maybe i should have left out my reference to its violent past.
     
  38. Spad

    Spad MajorGeek

    No offense or anger at all, sir, nor did I intend to convey such. :)

    I was just curious about your reference to "blood and violence", and your overall perception of this country. Rare is the nation that does not have such in their past or in their history, which contributed to where they are now as a nation. It does task me that some want to "forget" that the new world was colonized by the old - and that a lot of our "bloody past" was the result of the policies of the long established nations of Britain, France, and Spain . . . all of whom were struggling for control of the continent. A goodly portion of the blame for violence in our nation's past and founding can be laid at the old world's doors, and that is a fact. We made plenty of our own shameful mistakes and misdeeds after we became a nation.

    I don't feel Americans are obsessed with firearms, by and large - any more then we are obsessed with our other freedoms outlined in the constitution. Imagine if there was talk of taking away our right to free speech? I think you would see quite a lot of outrage at that idea as well. :)
     
  39. iwunderdownunder

    iwunderdownunder First Sergeant

    I suppose one needs to view your country from another perspective.During my short educational period the only studies we were faced with was about your wars both independence and civil, your wars against the indigenous people of America, some on your constitution which learning about to be honest was completely useless to me.
    With our education facilities only focusing on these events including slavery and other events leading up to the turn of the century not this one the last.you can only come to the conclusion that the U.S was a blood bath.To be honest with you i don't know how your population survived,you must breed like bloody rabbits.
    Australia also has a history of discovery by both the french and Spanish and i guess we were lucky in the fact that the Spanish thought this country was to barren to colonize and the French found that the British had beaten them here and didn't bother trying.
     
  40. LauraR

    LauraR MajorGeeks Super-Duper Administrator Staff Member

    I am going to reiterate that this thread is to remain civil.

    That means the comments regarding how other people's countries are perceived should come to an end.
     
  41. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    Ah this right here, this would be one of my biggest arguments for gun laws to be stricter. You said it here yourself, some people are not responsible and will leave a loaded gun somewhere a child can easily gain access to it.
    This is where I think the law is too light, if someone who is irrisponsible enough to leave a loaded gun in the open with children running round then they should never be given a license in the first place. So the question beckons, how did they get a license to own a gun when clearly they are not responsible enough?
    The answer: Gun laws too light, license too easy to obtain.

    See my whole thinking isn't to make it so you can't have the guns, but make it so it's harder for idiots to get the license.
    And yes, same with driving.
    A simple written test and a criminal background check is not enough IMO, you should have to take a 3-5 day course on how exactly to control and use a firearm AND how to store it safely.
    The more high profile the gun, the more involved and indepth the training should be.

    Will read the other posts later, only just awake lol and yes, take notice of Laura, this isn't a life changing debate, we're just chatting :)

    As for the magazine thing, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure in the UK and rolled up newspaper or mag IS classed as an offensive weapon and a cop can tell you to carry it differently, could also confiscate it....which I always thought was quite funny, although I've never heard of a cop actually enforcing this........ you're also allowed to pee up against you front right wheel anywhere at all due to an age old bylaw :-D
     
  42. Spad

    Spad MajorGeek

    I think a use and safety course concerning firearms is a fantastic idea - our local P.D. provides such a course for a nominal fee to cover materials. I'd have no problem with that becoming state law in Indiana.

    But, as has been pointed out, far more people are killed accidentally by motor vehicles then by firearms . . . I fear drunk drivers far more then I do a crook with a firearm. I think the licensing and penalties for auto related mishaps should be made more stringent then they are. I don't see as many people howling for that. Like I've said here before, you can do a heck of a lot more damage by accident with a speeding Buick then a .38 . . .
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2010
  43. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    The comparison to cars is not acurate since there are a hell of a lot more cars on the road.
    And once again I think driving licenses should be tougher to get too, in most countries.
    You could also throw in the lung cancer and various ailments caused by smoking, but there are many more ciggerettes than guns or cars, does a ciggerette scare you more than a gun?
    Also, drink driving is illegal, leaving a loaded gun on your kitchen table is not... correct?

    Anyway, I've been thinking and have come up with this.

    Owning a gun = Not a problem.
    You cannot get military grade auto fire weapons easily = little bit of a problem but passable.

    License is too easy to obtain, should require a course of training.

    Carrying a loaded gun in public = Not needed and very few people are trained in how to use a firearm against an armed criminal making the situation worse (even authorities in the US would agree with me there)

    Storage of firearms = Should be kept in a govenrment approved gun safe.
    You could still get to your weapon if the need arises with a simple tap of a few keys on the lock. Plus it would be out of reach for children or idiots OR the criminal that has broken into your house unarmed that you disturbed and he now picks up YOUR loaded and ready to fire gun sitting next to your armchair.

    How bad would it be if those laws were implimented?
     
  44. Fred_G

    Fred_G Heat packin' geek

    Ned, in the US, you don't need a license to own a gun. Just a background check and you must be over 21 for a handgun. A license is required to carry a concealed weapon. Requires a class and a more stringent background test.

    "Carrying a loaded gun in public = Not needed and very few people are trained in how to use a firearm against an armed criminal making the situation worse (even authorities in the US would agree with me there)"

    Your opinion. I have used a gun to defend myself. I also know what the wait times can be when the police are called. Guess we can just agree to disagree on that point. :-D And who trains the criminals on how to use their guns? :-D

    "Storage of firearms = Should be kept in a govenrment approved gun safe."

    Sorry, I say no way in hell. Would be a violation of the 2nd amendment, so illegal. Let me preface this with the simple fact that each person should secure their weapons, and be held responsible for the availability of the weapon. I say keep the damn gubment out of my house!!! :-D Would also be one of the easiest ways to implement gun control, just make the gubment approved safe cost $250,000. No $250,000, no gun.

    Plus, I don't trust our government to approve anything these days. ;)
     
  45. brandypeppy

    brandypeppy MajorGeek

    I gotta agree with Fred here, "government approved safe"? No way, this would rapidly lead to the licensing/registration/confiscation of our guns!

    People are held accountable when firearms get into the hands of minors, maybe not as much as they should be, but there are laws and penalties. Our local police department offers FREE gun locks to any one who wants one or more.

    3 - 5 day course! Holy Cow! I can't imagine how you could spend that much time, unless you wanted to learn to be a sharpshooter or something. My dad always taught me, and repeated it over and over, every gun you pick up is loaded! Never think otherwise. That lesson has always stayed with me and that, along with NEVER point a gun at a person, is basically what you need to know. My state does have mandatory courses for minor aged hunters, and I think that is fine. But even that isn't anywhere near that long.

    I personally know of one person killed by a gun, he was 13 and hunting with his father and brother. His brother was handing him a shotgun, barrel first. Point blank in the chest. They both had hunter safety training, and the dad was a fanatic on safety. Tragic, stupid, accident. But I can't begin to count the number of people I've known killed in a car accident.

    Isn't it interesting though, must pass test to drive, can't smoke or drink until 21, background check on gun purchase, all important stuff.

    But anyone at or beyond puberty can become a parent, also kind of important stuff, but no test, license, fees, or training required! (Although the "training" could be fun).:-D:-D

    All this discussion makes me feel like getting my guns out of the locker, just to smell the gun oil and remnants of gunpowder, awww, first thing in the morning. :wave:wave:wave
     
  46. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    Ok guys, I respect your opinions.
    I'm not trying to change minds but you will never convince me it's ok to have gun laws as they are.
    You only have to look at the number of gun related deaths per capita in the US compared to most other countries to see the difference.

    Brandy you mention license to be a parent, that is the one thing that is 100% your GOD given right, whether it be morally correct or not, by putting laws on that you are creating a totalitarian state.
    Again the comparison to driving, look at the number of cars in public to guns.
    The fact you don't need a license at all to own a gun I didn't know that, thats horrendous and has blown much of the respect I was gaining out of the water.
    So basically, you can be an idiot with the intelligence of a bioled potatoe but never been caught by the police and go and buy a gun.
    Yet you need to take training to serve food at MacDonalds.

    See my point?

    Both you guys I'm quite sure are very responsible, but realistically speaking you only make up maybe half the people who own guns.
    The other half are those who wave guns around their back yard fireing willy nilly at birds, or those who find it funny while drunk to go shooting stuff.

    People held responsible for their actions, yes, but as you have said several times Fred, prevention is better.

    I do seriously respect your guys views as once again it doesn't affect me.
    As Fred said we will never agree on this subject.

    Brandy... Your story of the child killed, you said the dad was responsible, yet he handed a loaded unsafetied gun to a child barrel first. That negates the responsibilty as you said, never ever point a gun at someone.

    Who trains the criminals? No one, that is why they are dangerous, Fred you may have the savy to stay calm in that situation, but what about the guy who doesn't and ends up shooting bystanders in panic?

    Bottom line is guns were designed to kill. Simple as that.
    Cars are transport.
    Smoking it a vice.
    Child birth is procreation.

    Keep the guns but make it safer, surely you guys agree with that.
    Honestly, look at the gun death numbers per capita and compare them to Canada (where every 2nd person owns a gun) or the UK (where virtually no one owns a gun)

    Highest gun deaths accidental or Malicious
    US (low gun laws)
    Canada (High Gun laws)
    UK (zero tollerence)

    Thats a clear picture and cannot be argued with.

    I understand the views you guys have, but I wonder how either one of you would feels should the worst happen to someone close (god forbid).

    Although I'm gonna come visit you both so I can play with your guns sometime, I'm still a boy afterall :-D

    And thank you both once again for your calm participation in this thread :)
     
  47. collinsl

    collinsl MajorGeek

    Just a little correction - BrandyPeppy's story referenced the brother shooting the kid, not the father.
     
  48. TeeCee

    TeeCee MajorGeek

    I'm going to go with Fred on this one. It isn't just yous guys that have guns. :-D I too enjoy shooting. I also had no problem buying guns, but that has been years ago since I purchased my last one. I enjoy shooting a good gun. Quality is a must. Also, I don't feel they should be locked up in a safe. Kinda defeats the purpose of owning one, doesn't it? rolleyes

    I know lots of Ladies that enjoy shooting. Not just myself. I learned how to handle a gun, and always treat every gun as if it were loaded. I also enjoy hunting. Yes, there are Ladies that do hunt. (Contrary to popular belief, we do like other things!LOL) :-D

    The gun ownership laws for handguns are different than for rifles. I don't do handguns, myself. Kids NEED to be TAUGHT GUN SAFETY first and foremost.
     
  49. silas

    silas MajorGeek

    Many things to say about Guns and my area plus its police/judge in town. If I could move with my GF to different town I would but due to job and travel and cost of things we are where we are for now. If you get busted with drugs they hope that you got a gun here so you get some automatic time in jail. But anyways about guns I believe they are good to fight off any people that are not welcomed. BUT the thing that scares me/pisses me off here or many other places is the"self defense". By law your able to use self defense but how much self defense can you really use? I've seen people go to jail for many things. I've seen houses get broken into and a guy legally owns a gun and points it at the guy that breaks into the house(says gets the f**k out or Ill shoot) guy was drunk and broke into this house.. and what happens my friend legally owns a gun(its registered hes got his permit to own one) and he never fired only pointed at subject that broken into his house... now my friend was arrested and charge for the gun and had to do a month in jail and pay big fines... Why? The cops said this isn't exact words but good enough"you have the right to protect yourself only to a degree this is why cops are here. You are suppose to call the cops for things like this. (but how are you going to call the cops that takes 20 minutes to get there on emergencys and hope they protect you from a guy breaking into your house that could be tring to kill us). Anyways the cops said he didn't have a gun so my friend doesn't have the right to pull his gun. Its like the thing is its fist vrs fist and gun for a gun. If you use a gun to protect while bad guy has fist then the gun owner is in trouble. Its the same thing for example as if someone hurts/rapes your kid.. you want to punch them and hurt them.. well say you punch them.. then cops arrest you for punching this guy.. and you tell the cops and judge the reason was he rapped your kid.. and the cops say you should've called us as we come arrest him... well its the same thing its lilke telling the cops what if the guy rapped "your kid" what would "you do" cop? lol Anyways owning a gun and protecting yourself is scary because you never know what and you see/hear about things that happen. I think owning a gun is good but if I owned one Id keep it lock up in a safe in the house so no kids or anyone could use it. Constantly around here they're are burglers due to no jobs and economy people here are stealing and tring to find money. So you need something. Even my own mom house was broken into while at night and she called the cops and was scared crapless and I drove over 20 miles to beat the cops from that own town to her house ... I went in with a bat.. and cops yell at me? Calling me not the smartest Idea? Anyways people should be able to carry and protect themself more then what the cops and judge allows around here. A bad thing is I see plus the prison system can show you is people get locked up for small amount of drugs/guns then they are murder/rapers.. You see more prison time on drug and gun people then murder and rapes. That is just wrong IMO of the sytem.
     
  50. Nedlamar

    Nedlamar MajorGeek

    @Collins.... I realised that after I posted but missed the edit, the point still stands though :)

    @TeeCee.... Locking a gun away doesn't defeat the purpose unless the purpose is to use it in your home. When you are not using the TV do you switch it off? So when you are not using a gun why not keep it in a safe place?
    People put locks on kitchen drawers to stop kids getting into them, but leave a gun unlocked?

    I will keep reading this thread and probably reply to certain things, but my points have been made. Anything else would simply be arguing lol

    I would like to thank those who contributed in a civil manner :)

    I've learnt some things which was my goal.

    This is what I've taken from this thread.

    People like Fred and Brandy and others have been raised to believe they have the right to own/carry/use firearms. No different to me being raised to believe I have the right to defend myself by any means.
    It's the culture of the USA, all our nations have cultures and those of us wo live in a different country cannot really complain or protest another nations culture.
    If you don't like it then voice your opinion if you feel the need. We should'nt bash each others country, each nation has good and bad ideals.
    Those who live in a country and don't like something have a right to try and change it.
    Those who don't, stay away from that country.

    Peace to all :)
     

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