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Old 03-22-10, 09:25
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Default US Gun Laws

A dicey subject I know so please lets simply keep this to an educated light hearted opnions thread

I am asking this question out of curiosity more than anything, I know something of the US gun laws and have witnessed many an argument about them.

Reading Fred's post just spurred me to ask this.

Mainly aimed at people like Fred and TeeCee who clearly have an interest in firearms and mainly at Americans with or without an interest.

If you don't know the laws, please keep your opinions limited to questions

What do you guys think of the US gun laws in general?
Obviously there are those who obey the laws and those who don't like in pretty much anything.
But do you think some of the laws such as being able to carry a handgun in a supermarket and the ease of obtaining a license are a little light?

I often read about how someone bought an M16 or an M4 Carbine and think to myself "Ok thats a military grade weapon and requires specific training to use safely and this guy bought one just because he could afford one, or he found a gang of dear carrying AK47's lol"

My understanding is Fully Auto weapons are not available and high grade weapons like those mentioned require more than a simple fire arms license, while hand guns and rifles require less than a driving test requires.

I also find it alarming that gun crime in the US is higher (insurmountably higher) than pretty much anywhere in the civilised world, do you think this is a direct reflection of light gun laws?

My question is genuine and like I said, aimed at those who KNOW the laws well and are responsible with these weapons.

Please do not throw in the "It's our god given right" because a US president has never been god lol
And please do not throw in the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" because guns make it a hell of a lot easier for people to kill people lol

Please please remember, keep it civil
I'm looking for genuinely educated opinions and to enhance my knowledge of things.
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Old 03-22-10, 09:45
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

I think there remains something unique in the culture of this country, esp. when it comes to gun laws. Even people who don't own and have never owned a gun feel strongly about the right to.

But there is a constant battle over this and I think that is what pushes some people to the rather extreme desire to open carry. I own guns myself, though I would never desire to strap one on to go to the supermarket. Nevertheless, it is the process of incrementalism that concerns gun rights advocates. They know that is they give an inch this year, there will be another inch next year, and so forth. So not only are they unwilling to give an inch, they want to move the bar in the opposite direction as well, and that is really just to guarantee they don't lose anything.

They hear and see what is going on in the rest of the world regarding personal gun rights, and they, we, don't want that here.

You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

Love that line!!!
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Old 03-22-10, 10:01
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

Ok, so may I add another question?

In your opinion, what is so important about the right to bare arms, given that the original idea was to bare arms in defense against the government (I think I'm right there) way back in the Confederacy days?

I can understand boys being boys and wanting to go to the shooting range and shoot stuff, I'd love doing that too, but this whole thing about being able to keep arms in your home unsecured and loaded, ready to defend as it were, I just don't understand it.
Especially given the amount of accidental gun related deaths.

So why is it so important to own a gun? and keep it at home?

Is it just a "It's our right and too many other things are changing"?

Also I don't really see it as unique, since many countries allow freedom of gun use, just most of them are not really members of the civilised world.
Please don't take that as a dig, just voicing opinions.... I want an MP5 lol
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Old 03-22-10, 10:24
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

lol I just learnt that the original idea of "Freemen to bare arms" was an English idea in the 12th century, damn English lol

I also learnt that the 2nd ammendment states "Bare arms" and "A well regulated malitia"
For the purposes of defending the nation.
But this is where I get confused,the Oxford Dictionary defines the phrase "To bear arms" as "to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight." and "a well regulated malitia" is a trained and disciplined unit of defense, meaning you should not only be trained in use of the firearm but of military tactics aswell?

I think the original idea has long since passed and this is why I'm asking opinions from Americans, because the original reason is no longer an issue, yet the US people feel so strongly about keeping this right.
And I don't understand why......please edumacate me

Ny the way, I find this all very interesting
I'm on a history kick at the moment lol
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Old 03-22-10, 11:40
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedlamar View Post
lol I just learnt that the original idea of "Freemen to bare arms" was an English idea in the 12th century, damn English lol

I also learnt that the 2nd ammendment states "Bare arms" and "A well regulated malitia"
For the purposes of defending the nation.
But this is where I get confused,the Oxford Dictionary defines the phrase "To bear arms" as "to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight." and "a well regulated malitia" is a trained and disciplined unit of defense, meaning you should not only be trained in use of the firearm but of military tactics aswell?

I think the original idea has long since passed and this is why I'm asking opinions from Americans, because the original reason is no longer an issue, yet the US people feel so strongly about keeping this right.
And I don't understand why......please edumacate me

Ny the way, I find this all very interesting
I'm on a history kick at the moment lol
Militia received very little or no military tactic training. Their main job was to grab a gun, run to the nearest cover, and hold off the attackers as long as possible.
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Old 03-22-10, 12:17
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

Yeah I guess thats true, nice job eh.
I think I was thinking more about the military malitia such as the Territorials or Army reserves, where as the 2nd amendment refers more to townsfolk ready and able to defend if need be.
Still, thats not really true today lol

I dunno, I don't really care whether or not the laws are kept or changed or removed as it doesn't affect me, I'm just curious as to what Americans think of the laws and justification of such laws.
Being those who live there and have their lives impacted by these laws for reasons of god or bad.
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Old 03-22-10, 14:02
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

Is it just a "It's our right and too many other things are changing"?

No offense taken.

I certainly think that's a factor. Also, the founding fathers wrote the constitution, and the amendments were added to get all of the colonies to sign on. This clause has been a bone of contention since almost the day it was penned. But it is and remains part of what this country is and has been upheld on numerous occassions by our Supreme Court. And the latest polls show only 39% of Americans favor stricter control. So it is not likely to change any time soon. Most politicians know that favoring more gun laws is a good/sure way to have to find real work.

It probably seem a little barbaric/reckless to those of you in countries where there are strict gun ownership laws, and that is understandable. But in the pysche of the people of the U.S., this is our last line of defense against an oppressive and dictatorial government, this is how the country was founded in the first place.
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Old 03-22-10, 21:44
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

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Originally Posted by Nedlamar View Post
Yeah I guess thats true, nice job eh.
I think I was thinking more about the military malitia such as the Territorials or Army reserves, where as the 2nd amendment refers more to townsfolk ready and able to defend if need be.
Still, thats not really true today lol
We have a very competent and very powerful military, but add 54 million gun owners and 270 million guns and you've got quite the reason not to provoke us.
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Old 03-22-10, 15:50
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedlamar View Post
A dicey subject I know so please lets simply keep this to an educated light hearted opnions thread

I am asking this question out of curiosity more than anything, I know something of the US gun laws and have witnessed many an argument about them.

Reading Fred's post just spurred me to ask this.

Mainly aimed at people like Fred and TeeCee who clearly have an interest in firearms and mainly at Americans with or without an interest.

If you don't know the laws, please keep your opinions limited to questions

What do you guys think of the US gun laws in general?
Obviously there are those who obey the laws and those who don't like in pretty much anything.
But do you think some of the laws such as being able to carry a handgun in a supermarket and the ease of obtaining a license are a little light?

I often read about how someone bought an M16 or an M4 Carbine and think to myself "Ok thats a military grade weapon and requires specific training to use safely and this guy bought one just because he could afford one, or he found a gang of dear carrying AK47's lol"

My understanding is Fully Auto weapons are not available and high grade weapons like those mentioned require more than a simple fire arms license, while hand guns and rifles require less than a driving test requires.

I also find it alarming that gun crime in the US is higher (insurmountably higher) than pretty much anywhere in the civilised world, do you think this is a direct reflection of light gun laws?

My question is genuine and like I said, aimed at those who KNOW the laws well and are responsible with these weapons.

Please do not throw in the "It's our god given right" because a US president has never been god lol
And please do not throw in the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" because guns make it a hell of a lot easier for people to kill people lol

Please please remember, keep it civil
I'm looking for genuinely educated opinions and to enhance my knowledge of things.
Most places frown on openly carrying firearms in supermarkets and such places. Quite a few bar unconcealed weapons from their premises. Concealed carry permits require an application to a law enforcement official and a national criminal background check.

As far as your statements about M4s and M16s, you have a few misconceptions. The M16 and the M4 are not available to civilians in the US. What you are referring to is the probably the AR15, which is not a military weapon. It just looks like one. Anyway, the term 'military grade weapon' is meaningless as it covers the English longbow and the Japanese katana sword also. Neither conjures the specter of menace you imply. If one pays a $200 federal firearms tax and pass an FBI background check, one can legally own a machine gun. Of course since the sale of firearms manufactured after 1986 are illegal, the pool of available machine guns is small and the prices prohibitively high.

Gun crime is high here but violent crime in general is high. We have a rather violent culture. I hear the comparisons between the US and UK concerning gun laws and gun violence. Far fewer people are stabbed and kicked to death in the UK and I doubt it's the result of UK laws banning knives and feet.

There are no simple answers. If we banned guns tomorrow, we would still stab chop, beat, strangle and kill each other in many other ways at alarming rates.
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Old 03-22-10, 21:08
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

CCL (Concealed Carry License) in my state require a criminal background check, and a class. You are only allowed to carry guns in certain places.

And you have to get a special federal license to legally own a fully automatic weapon.

As far as the militia aspect of it, depends on what the government wants to try to do. The Japanese were a bit afraid of my gun toting ancestors during WWII.

"What do you guys think of the US gun laws in general?"

They work well.

"But do you think some of the laws such as being able to carry a handgun in a supermarket and the ease of obtaining a license are a little light?"

Ok, what is wrong with that? You are carrying a tool. Perhaps there is a lot more anger in the supermarkets where you are?

"I often read about how someone bought an M16 or an M4 Carbine and think to myself "Ok thats a military grade weapon and requires specific training to use safely and this guy bought one just because he could afford one, or he found a gang of dear carrying AK47's lol""

You can't (unless you spend a ton of money on a federal license), own an M-16 or AK-47, as those are full auto.

You can buy the semi auto versions, AR-15 and such.

"I also find it alarming that gun crime in the US is higher (insurmountably higher) than pretty much anywhere in the civilised world, do you think this is a direct reflection of light gun laws?"

I think that is a societal problem, that I won't go into here. Look at the gun crimes in DC, and New York, who have the strictest gun laws, vs other states or cities with less restrictive laws.

"Please do not throw in the "It's our god given right" because a US president has never been god lol"

It is my constitutional right, as a citizen of this country. Plus, there are many instances where guns have been used to prevent crimes, and have saved lives, when used by law abiding citizens.

"And please do not throw in the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" because guns make it a hell of a lot easier for people to kill people lol"

Ok, proud gun owner for around 25 years. None of my guns have been involved in a crime, and a couple helped prevent some crimes.

Also, keep in mind, that historically, we are a pretty new nation. Heck, we rebelled and beat off one of the most powerful nations in the world at the time. Our government was setup with many checks and balances. 2/3 of the house and senate can override the president, the president can veto bills.... Plus the supreme court can rule a law is unconstitutional.

And also, many of us have the strong desire to protect our family from harm, and yes, even up to using a gun to defend ourselves. We have the Castle Law here, I don't have to retreat if I am in my home. And, if a law is unconstitutional, I don't have to obey it. How far you want to go with that is up to the individual.

From what I have read about England, heck they are required to retreat, are not allowed to defend themselves.

Crime is illegal by definition. Why would adding more laws against it stop a criminal? I will take a loaded gun in my hand vs a criminal's decision on how many laws he wishes to violate.
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Old 03-22-10, 21:47
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

lol where did this come from.
Gotta break a couple of points down here.

Quote:
CCL (Concealed Carry License) in my state require a criminal background check, and a class. You are only allowed to carry guns in certain places.

And you have to get a special federal license to legally own a fully automatic weapon.
As your later comment suggests, this is not an easy license to obtain, but the mere fact you CAN obtain one is IMO way over the top, why on gods green earth would anyone need a fully automatic assault rifle?


Quote:
Ok, what is wrong with that? You are carrying a tool. Perhaps there is a lot more anger in the supermarkets where you are?
Not at all, I don't fear the supermarket and nor should I, but I would feel uncomfortable with the knowledge that the person next to me could have a small cannon in his/her jacket. No need.

Quote:
I think that is a societal problem, that I won't go into here. Look at the gun crimes in DC, and New York, who have the strictest gun laws, vs other states or cities with less restrictive laws.
Good point well made.

Quote:
It is my constitutional right, as a citizen of this country. Plus, there are many instances where guns have been used to prevent crimes, and have saved lives, when used by law abiding citizens.
Thats fine, I just hate the "It's my GOD given right" lol

Quote:
Ok, proud gun owner for around 25 years. None of my guns have been involved in a crime, and a couple helped prevent some crimes.
Kudos to you sir, I mentioned you in the first post because I can clearly see you respect the deadly chunks of metal you own and are obviously responsible with them.

Quote:
Also, keep in mind, that historically, we are a pretty new nation. Heck, we rebelled and beat off one of the most powerful nations in the world at the time. Our government was setup with many checks and balances. 2/3 of the house and senate can override the president, the president can veto bills.... Plus the supreme court can rule a law is unconstitutional.
True, I often think of the Sates as a Teenager in terms of Country's age.
Oh and don't forget that Country you beat off was also at war in Europe at the time j/k , we ain't getting into that lol

Quote:
And also, many of us have the strong desire to protect our family from harm, and yes, even up to using a gun to defend ourselves. We have the Castle Law here, I don't have to retreat if I am in my home. And, if a law is unconstitutional, I don't have to obey it. How far you want to go with that is up to the individual.
This is where my point about fear in the above post comes from, protect your family from what?

Quote:
From what I have read about England, heck they are required to retreat, are not allowed to defend themselves.
Not sure on that, as far as I know if you are attacked them you defend yourself by whatever means available. Deal with the law suits afterwards.

Quote:
Crime is illegal by definition. Why would adding more laws against it stop a criminal? I will take a loaded gun in my hand vs a criminal's decision on how many laws he wishes to violate.
Well I guess that statement simply says there is too much crime in the states. I never think about having to face a criminal, I have on several occasions, hell I've had a gun pointed at my face twice along with a blade held to my throat and several other instances. I think me pulling a gun in any one of them would have just made matters worse.... I'd also probably be in jail or worse instead of chatting to you lol

But again, thanks for the opinions, I figured yours would be among the strongest from what I've read.
Also gotta tell you I'm a little jealous of your collection lol

Man, this is the most civilised conversation I've ever had about this, thank you all so far for keeping it calm and answering my questions.
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Old 03-22-10, 21:53
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

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Originally Posted by Nedlamar View Post

Man, this is the most civilised conversation I've ever had about this, thank you all so far for keeping it calm and answering my questions.
Quoted for emphasis.

Just a reminder to keep it civil. We got rid of Hot Topics for a reason so make sure this doesn't turn into anything like that.
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Old 03-22-10, 21:57
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

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Originally Posted by LauraR View Post
Quoted for emphasis.

Just a reminder to keep it civil. We got rid of Hot Topics for a reason so make sure this doesn't turn into anything like that.
Exactly my reason for repeating it

Besides, I like you guys and wouldn't want to argue over something none of us have control over

I'm just enjoying the knowledge, I know it's all out on the net but it makes more sense when backed up by opinion.

@Wunder.... lol No not brave, just have a thirst for knowledge and a healthy respect for members here, I wouldn't even try to change people's minds, no point. Anything that may read like that is simply my way of trying to gain clarification
Over the last few years I've learnt a great deal about life outside the UK, just expanding and since I only live 30 miles from the US, I would like to know whats what over there before I go for a visit lol
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Old 03-22-10, 22:29
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

"As your later comment suggests, this is not an easy license to obtain, but the mere fact you CAN obtain one is IMO way over the top, why on gods green earth would anyone need a fully automatic assault rifle?"

Actually, I think it would be a military rifle. And the need, I don't know, usually collectors, very expensive to get.

"Not at all, I don't fear the supermarket and nor should I, but I would feel uncomfortable with the knowledge that the person next to me could have a small cannon in his/her jacket. No need."

Perhaps, but haveing a gun and using it illegally are different subjects. You might feel differently if a crazy criminal with a gun showed up. Cell phones are great, but sometimes life happens fast.

"This is where my point about fear in the above post comes from, protect your family from what?"

Anyone who makes the unwise choice to enter my property illegally. Do you buy fire insurance because you plan on your home burning to the ground? I plan for the worst case, and prepare as I can afford. Home invasion likely, well heck no. But, if someone tries to bust into my home, the time to plan is before, not after they break in. I have in the past defended my hotel room from a bungler. Nobody got shot or unfortunately arrested, but I protected myself and property, and criminal ran away.

Plus, I love shooting guns. Is a hobby.

And, I enjoy going to the range and shooting my guns.

"Not sure on that, as far as I know if you are attacked them you defend yourself by whatever means available. Deal with the law suits afterwards."

Will take my states Castle Law over that any day. If they are inside, I can shoot. Now, I can, but do I? I value life, would try to subdue, but if they are in my home, I won't take many risks before I shoot.

"Well I guess that statement simply says there is too much crime in the states. I never think about having to face a criminal, I have on several occasions, hell I've had a gun pointed at my face twice along with a blade held to my throat and several other instances. I think me pulling a gun in any one of them would have just made matters worse.... I'd also probably be in jail or worse instead of chatting to you lol"

Nice chatting to you as well. But having the gun does not mean you must use it. It is an option. A gun is a tool. Can be used for many things, some good, some bad.

Is there not more crime than gun crime in the world? I will go out on a limb here and speculate that there are more traffic tickets issued in the US than gunshot victims from people who legally owned guns.
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Old 03-23-10, 08:24
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

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From what I have read about England, heck they are required to retreat, are not allowed to defend themselves.
Just because we don't have machine guns doesn't mean we have to retreat,we're British we adapt

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Old 03-23-10, 08:44
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

Iwunder, I would have to question the 'education' of many politicians today. My point was that many countries have bloody pasts.

Tux, I am not sure on the details on the law in Louisiana, but my basic understanding is if they are coming towards you, you don't have to run.

Rikky, is that a the full auto magazine, or is it semi auto? All kinds of common things can be used as weapons. Guess I am lazy, I choose the most effective, and easiest one.
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Old 03-22-10, 21:21
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@Brandy.... I think thats the clearest argument for the way it is I've ever encountered. Thank you.


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Originally Posted by Just Playin View Post
Gun crime is high here but violent crime in general is high. We have a rather violent culture. I hear the comparisons between the US and UK concerning gun laws and gun violence. Far fewer people are stabbed and kicked to death in the UK and I doubt it's the result of UK laws banning knives and feet.

There are no simple answers. If we banned guns tomorrow, we would still stab chop, beat, strangle and kill each other in many other ways at alarming rates.
Ah, so stopping on the M16 thing, these people are simply exaggerating the weapon they have actually bought? That makes more sense lol
But I have to disagree with the comparison to a Katana or Longbow, we're talking Modern Military grade weapons that are far more effective than either of those lol, even in the right hands......which was kind of my point, but since you say these rifles are not available it's a moot point.

As for the level of violence in the UK, clearly you know little of the Nation lol, not so much now admittedly but I remember the 80's a football violence, we're not talking about just a few fans fighting, we're talking about full blown battles, sharpend pennys thrown across stadiums, darts, stanley (exacto) knives on large scales, enough to put any gang fight to shame. The UK gun laws were fairly loose until the Dunblane Massacre at which point the laws just basically shut down. No more gun crime lol, the Knife amnesty also reduced stabbings and knife related violence.
But personally I think the UK has just mellowed.

I actually think much of the "Outside" view of the US guns laws are largely due to a lack of knowledge, I've heard many things I know to be untrue, people saying things like "In the US you can just walk into a store and buy an Uzi" , I know thats not true.
But I do believe that the laws should be stiffer than they are, the biggest problem I see with it is a proven fact....most gun related deaths are accidental, trouble with a gun is in a rage with your finger on the trigger.........all you have to do is squeeze.......and there's a mistake that costs lives in more ways than 1.

I also figure it's somewhat due to the obvious "Fear" (for want of a better word) that Americans are forced to live by, I often read and hear or see the way news and Government tell the people how much danger they are in from this threat or that threat. This isn't me having a pop either, this is my own observation. I've also witnessed many Americans talk about the day they get invaded or some such. Neither the UK nor Canada thinks like that which is probably largely why we don't feel the need to protect ourselves. Thats what our military are paid for lol

But thanks for the info guys, keep it coming, I like this clarification, I also realise that it varies State to State.

And once again, I hope nothing I've said is taken offensively, it's certainly not meant that way

I should also add that I would love to have a gun display collection and am/always have been fascinated by weapons of all kinds..... mainly why I would like a FireArms license, I also plan to restart my blade collection when I have some funds coming in again.
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Old 03-22-10, 20:52
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

The US has too many guns Laws
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Old 03-22-10, 21:07
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

Its more important than ever to have the right to own a Gun
The US is being over run with Gang Bangers and Illegal Aliens
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Old 03-22-10, 21:11
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Default Re: US Gun Laws

Can you tell?
I support the Right to Bear Arms
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