UK Members!

Just heard there were 3 (possibly more?) small explosions in the London transit system...please reply here so we know you are all ok...

 

This one was just to scare Abby. Detonators (small) on dummy bombs. No real injuries.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4703777.stm

 

yaeh, I only just found out about it.

still, those bastards are going to make it difficult for me to even get into london tommorrow

 

Find the responsible party's, and just start lopping off body parts

 

I live north about 300 miles from london so I'm fine no one at all was hurt,the detonators exploded but not the explosives again two on the tube and one on a bus,the attackers were seen fleeing the seen after thier date with allah was foiled "no offence to muslims".One guy has been reported shot by the police,a few residences have been evacuated"the homes of the bombers" and a few more arrested,Wooooottt!!! The english bobby!!

 

Rumour has it that they might have been just testing out a new way of detonating. Using mobile phones, or timers, instead of suicide bombers. Let us hope this is not the case, as apparently it worked. Bazza

===

 

do we know for fact that they were dummy bombs? i kept hearing them mention the exact name of the explosive used, so i can't imagine they would have used real explosives in dummy bombs... also, it wouldn't have been very smart to test a non-working bomb out like this as it would clearly give the Police evidence to work with...

what's scary is that this could be happening here in the U.S. everyday... i guess we're lucky it hasn't yet

 

What worries me is anyone can make the explosives they used without leaving the house,I'll not go into detail,but its made with a pc cleaning product and a type of hair colouring,torrorists refer to it as "the mother of satan"

 

Yes, indeed. Oval is the station I usually travel to to get to my dads...

 

The word is that they were real bombs and the dummys planting them couldn't set em off properly for some as yet unfigured reason. I can't tell you what I'd do to these people[?] I'd probably get kicked off the forum.

 

I've been working nights in Middlesbrough all week, I'm converting/adding power & data points in branches of a national Chemists. We heard this on the way home on the radio.

Working in London all last week and another week in London after the nightmare week that is to come, 3 days in Norfolk, thursday night back in Middlesbrough and friday night in Swansea. Honestly if it wasn't for the stupid, nay almost obscene amount of money I wouldn't do it, feeling every one of my *cough*35*cough* years at the mo

I have no qualms whatsoever, whilst on Canary Wharf we had the van swabbed for explosives at least 12 times in 3 nights, security was tight but the attitude was loose, if you know what I mean.

It will be a cold day in Hell before we will bow down to intimidation, let's face it, it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees. I could get run over by a bus tomorrow but it won't stop me leaving the flat.

I hate bullies, f**k 'em all, whoever they are and whatever they they purport to represent.

Your Freedom ends where my nose begins and vice versa.

Just sayin'




*Remember Lenin pointed out that the purpose of Terror is to terrorise. It relies on nebulous fear, look at the numbers. I refer you to my Bus analogy earlier.

 

that's a fantastic quote... it's not an original is it?

 

On New Year's Day in Mexico, 1994, they shouted "Enough!" The EZLN (Zapatista Army for National Liberation) presented itself to the world. They took their name from Emiliano Zapata, a man who fought for the poor. "It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees"-these were his words. The Zapatistas wanted their children to stop dying of curable diseases. They wanted their land, which they see as the link to creation, returned to them. They were tired of living like animals while others lived in castles only a few yards away.
Still applicable here and eveywhere methinks.

 

Thanks, I wasn't sure of the provenance myself

 

Police have shot dead a suspected terrorist,he was chased in stockwell tube station onto the train,he half tripped half fell and was shot point blank five times in the chest just after 10am this morning,he was wearing a thick "padded" coat,probably full of explosives but nothing has been confirmed yet.

thats 2 the cops have killed,those terrorists are naughty boys there mothers should have give them a good spanking,now its the polices turn,they spank abit harder though

 

Let's hope that now they know the police will use more than just a truncheon, they'll think twice about trying to kill innocent people.

 

Chuckles... if the chap was suspected of having explosives in his coat... i would imagine the last thing the local plods would want to do is shoot at him. Eye witness reports said that he was chased, he tripped and was also pushed to the ground, where upon the cops shot him, not once, but 5 times, at point blank range! The man was not seen to have any form of weapon by onlookers interviewed.

Personally I would suspect this is massive over-reaction on the part of the police. The guy may have had drugs or something on him, and ran when challenged. Now he's dead and it will be justified by the bombs on 7/7. All this talk of it wont change how we do things and only 2 weeks later a guys dead at the hands of the police. One things for sure.. he wont be sueing them, and nor will he be giving out information.

I spent time in Melbourne not that long ago, where statisically more people are shot by police and security people, than are by criminals. Look out Uk. Looks like we're next.

 

...and thats what the media tells you. The unfortunate thing is, nobody truly knows what happened except those police. The media is biased, and exaggerates things, no matter what country its in. Anything to create a sensational reaction.

 

If the individual shot by the police was wearing an explosive laden vest or jacket then bullets alone won't set off the explosives. Most explosive compounds require heat and pressure to make them detonate, some require only heat or only pressure. Explosives in those last two categories are highly unstable.

Yes the shooting could have been an over reaction, but then again I don't know if there is such a thing as over reacting when dealing with terrorists.

 

Yes, but one would assume that the people the police are shooting are bad guys, and the ones the criminals are shooting are good guys.

Statistically, it seems to be working. The more criminals the police shoot, the fewer criminals there are to shoot the good guys.

 

Totally agree about the media,what I wrote was from an eyewitness who was 10 feet away and saw the whole thing,he heard and saw 5 shots,more information is coming out,the eyewitness didnt say where they shot the guy,but the rules of engagement have changed for the police only in the last couple of weeks,they now are told to shoot for the head to disable the attacker form detonating explosives,the police have also issued a statement that the rules of engagement have been complied with,so it looks as if they shot him 5 times in the head.

Also the explosives in question acetoneperoxide are VERY heat and shock sensitive,in the field of chemistry it is only deemed safe when chilled below 10c,thats why it has no use in any other application

 

Acetoneperoxide is a very unstable compound, shooting the dude in the head seems to be a very appropriate course of action.

 

Instability seems a common theme between the compoud and the carrier...

 

Yeah. If a guy is carrying a bomb round his waist, then I dont give a damn about where he gets shot, as long as he doesnt have enough time to set off the bomb. Another eyewittness said he saw that the shot man had wires on his body and a bomb belt. Well, **** me but that looks like reasonable grounds to be shot at.


Theres one thing about travelling on the tube now, you notice how many people seem to be carrying *really* full rucksacks.

 

Personally I wouldn't recognise a "bomb belt" if one slapped me in the face. As to the wires, it could be a cell phone earpiece. Full backpacks??? Ever watched a High School at about 8.30am ??

I guess the cops had more to go on than the eyewitness

 

eh, true. Although plainclothes police with guns out usually are quite rare

 

Eyewitness said he was shot in the head. Also the uk police have taken advice from the Israel police [the most experienced with lunatic suicide bombers] regarding where to shoot the b******s [ie,head]
Bloody good job too,I say.

2 more arrested...1 in Birmingham.

 

All present and correct round here

 

OK here too. I'm not so sure that they were plain clothes police officers though, smacks more of the "security forces" SAS MI5 MI6 to me

 

flying squad?

 

It looks like this is indeed the case. Reports are that he was an innocent Brazilian citizen.

Of course, some will justify it by saying he should have obeyed police orders (whatever they were / if there were any / if he could hear or understand them . . . lots of variables in play there) and I would have to agree that when you know the cops are on edge, it's best to do as you are told. I am sure any extenuating circumstances will come to light eventually.

And, of course, the police have to make a life or death judgement call in a matter of seconds - It is hard to fault their actions, given the information that has come forth thus far.

I'm curious, though. If the man who was gunned down were your father, son, husband or brother, would your feeling be different?

 

Yup turns out the guy shot was a completely unconnected brazilian electrician. The details can be found HERE and the police are all apologetic now.

For all we know this guy could have had little knowledge of the english language, and as the police were plain clothes... he probably though he was fleeing from muggers!

I dont find it hard to fault their actions at all. I find it easy. This is the uk. We dont shoot people 5 times in the head. Correction. Don't = didnt used too. It appears innocent until proven guilty only applys as and when the people distributing justice see fit. Orwellian state, here we come.

 

He was brazilian electrician unconnected to the incidents.



Jean Charles de Menezes (far right), pictured with friends

...a prayer for him

 

We didn't used to blow people up with suicide bombers either. I don't usually agree with Red Ken, but he got it right this time:

The Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: "The police acted to do what they believed necessary to protect the lives of the public.
"This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."

The world is changing, you are right about that, but we are not the authors of that change.

 

Poor guy,I'm tryna figure out why he ran,a few points of topic,they were plain clothed officers,there were a few of them,they had followed him from his house,had he made them and decided to escape on the train?,they could have been racists who wanted to kick the crap out of him for all he knew,when they shouted police at him he may not have recognized the word at that point he could have been so scared he wasnt thinking properly,especially if he saw a gun.

Why did they let him get so close to the station in the first place if he was a suspected terrorist?If he was he could have blown the crap out of that train,they said the coat he was wearing was suspicious yet they let him walk down the street while they tailed him

just seems like a big mess to me

 

Just heard on the news that the guy's visa had expired some years ago. That may explain why he tried to run away.

 

Public warning was announced on the radio a few hours ago.. All illegal immigrants beware, due to police picking on those from ethnic minorities. Those running from police may be assumed terrorists...
I wasn't sure whether to laugh or sigh..

 

what? What station/ program? Can you give a link or a transcript?

 

Update to the shooting of the brazilian man Jean Charles de Menezes's-

He was wearing a denim jacket,I wouldnt call that "bulky"I had pictures in my mind of some kind of heavy rain coat.

He didnt jump the turnstyle as police have said to escape them,he stamped his travel pass.

He wasnt in the country illegally his visa was fully up to date.

The plot thickens,looks like we could be witnessing a cover up,the police still will not give the family vital evidence on the shooting to ease thier suffering-Why?

Probably getting thier story straight,I aint gonna speculate too much,its just all so dam fishy

 

all those in england, know as well as i do, that the ability to lie through your teeth is a prerequisite to all government employment. we do not suffer from the fear of public recrimination, as
a) we don't care what the public think.
b) we all stick together and back each other up.
c) there is no threat of litigation.

i know that some-one somewhere is gonna object to that, but i know that English mentality is very different from the US.

 

Mostly I agree with you Laurie...accountability is just something that doesn't happen in UK employment the same as in the US. But having said that I used to work in local government in the UK in my last job and in my department accountability DID happen

 

i worked for the NHS. in my experience most people were dedicated, hardworking, and looked out for patients interests. they did so underfunded, understaffed,and under-resourced for the most part. and mistakes happen. and so do incidents of un-ethical behaviour or doctrine. we were how-ever free to bring concerns to fellow staff, and it was almost impossible to get fired. councelling, retraining, relocation, all being required alternatives. the one absolute you could be fired for was 'bringing the proffession into disrepute'. in other words 'whistle-blowing'.
i have also worked for the US. social services.
the client care is directly related to the dollar sign above their head.
the risk of litigation means loss of discretion in applying rules and treatments.
in an 'employment at will' state, if you draw attention to inconsistancies or unfair practices, you will be fired.

as much as i complained about the NHS when i was there, 'the battle' was mostly against burocracy. it nutures an 'us against them' attitude. which in turn nutures solidarity. maybe that is a better than accountability.
in the US. it apears much more 'look out for yourself' least you become accountable.

these of course are just my observations and experiences, but one should take into account that those are considerable.

 

Congrats Halo, what field are you doing research in?

Laurie, it's understandable why they dont want people to be fired. It costs a lot to train a medic, and the gov't want to recoup their expenses. It's also quite difficult to become a doctor, my friend was tellingn me about the amount of work shes putting into applying to unis. The most recent 'striking off' that I can remember was that doctor who misled trials about statistics relating to cot death... not really wistleblowing

 

My "other half" works for the NHS, been a theatre nurse for 20 years, she wants out now because of the beaurocracy and the fact that there is a cliquey attitude from those above (they don't like it if you know more than they do)

 

Sorry, but that seems to be a crock. Love to see some real evidence.

 

what kind of 'evidence'? i have spent my life working in public service. these are my observations.

anyway, refer to a)

 

Okay, forget the seems to be. Now I know it's a crock.

What about those Chinese drivers eh?