Hard Drives, Partitions and Operating System

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by casey white, Sep 10, 2006.

  1. casey white

    casey white Private E-2

    First my computer knowledge. I have no computer training, can research and stumble my way through stuff just enough to be dangerous usually but for the most part I'm just a regular 10 yr. computer user. Have installed video and sound cards, flashed a bios and cleaned my computer innards but that's about it.

    I have a new computer on order (dual core E6600, 2 GB., GEForce 7900GS) with two large HDs as well as a USB External HD for backups. FlightSim2004 is my new interest, no prior gaming experience. I plan to use Partition Magic to set up partitions to have FS2004 on it's own partition on one drive and the operating system, XP, on the other drive. A couple other partitions will be used over both drives to facilitate smaller backups etc. I will also include a partition for a future FSX installation. The secondary drive with FS2004 on it will only have inert dead storage backups on it that will be behind a partition.

    My two questions are this. What do you think of the setup I have proposed with a view to practicality, strong game performance, and backup friendliness?

    Secondly, should I install an XP operating system on it's own partition on Drive 2? I assume the game will work better using only the operating system on Drive 1, but I'm not sure. I'm also wondering if a second XP installation on Drive 2 behind a partition would faciltiate easier crash recoveries should I lose the first hard drive physically or through a bug? My instincts say yes to the second question but I really don't know.

    I greatly appreciate any help or suggestions.

    Casey
     
  2. DAKz

    DAKz Corporal

    If you want my oppinion, I would use XP as the main system maybe grab a copy of 2000 to use in case it all goes south on you that way you can always boot to 2000. The main reaason I suggest this is space, 2000 can be installed then stripped of a lot of things that you don't use and then you have a nice little OS ready to go, better yet get nLite from here at MG and make a very small OS of 2000. I run XP, 2003, and Vista on one computer, but then again I have some room to. currently am running 4 partitions 3 with OS's and one where I put download files, and storage for things waiting to be burned to a CD. In my experience I think that software that resides on the same partition as the using OS runs better faster and easier for the OS to handle. A good example would be the difference in running a demo game and it runs great while it's installed on your hard drive, go out and buy the CD version and there is always a lag for the disc to read. Even with the faster hard drives you still are waiting for the OS to go look for it and then load whatever part of the file. Thats my thought on it. As far as your partitioning all those different drives why not go with a raid array and then partition what you need? Or better look for smaller drives that are about the size you need and install them. This way if one dumps on you, your out the drive and whatever was on it, if you catch a virus and its on a drive you can reformat the drive and be back to where you where without risking spreading it throughout your system, this is taking into consideration of course that you catch it. What you suggest will work, but to me (and as I said it's only my oppinion) I would not divide up a drive too much because drives are cheap, and if you divide up a drive too much and something goes wrong you lost it all! I would not install a 2nd copy of XP I believe that your gonna run into WGA/WPA problems trying to update 2 copies of windows on the same computer, not too mention the space involved, I would look at the smallest useable version I could with the idea that if I had too I could boot to it to see what happened to the main one. My main version is Windows 2003, but I have XP installed, and Vista, but the idea is that I can always boot to one of the 3, Vista is too play with, XP is the fall back system because I can do everthing from there, even though it doesn't see a lot of my hardware. For everyday use and pure power and stabiltiy I use 2003. Don't know if this heklps you any, but you did ask for oppinions.
     
  3. casey white

    casey white Private E-2

    Great Stuff, thank you.
    Regarding the dual operating systems I take your response to mean that Yes there will be a benefit in the event of a crash in having an operating system on the other drive as well as the game probably benefiting from having it's own dedicated OS. Would my old legal copy of Win 98 be adequate today or is it just too archaic? I hear it's still got a popular following for older systems. I forgot about the Microsoft complications, gee that's dumb. By wanting to do something totally legitimate and still abiding by the spirit of their agreement they are going to stop or impede me. How stupid is that.

    This may seem elementary, but not to me. With multiple operating systems like that do you have to boot the computer on each system to use it or can you actually flip from one to the other without a reboot? Assuming you have to boot to the different system how do you tell the computer what system to boot to, is that just a matter of using "F8" during the boot process or is there something else to set up?

    A Raid system is a consideration, maybe that's the way I'll go.
     
  4. DAKz

    DAKz Corporal

    OK a couple of thoughts here, first Windows 98 while a great OS in it's day would be a problem, to me anyhow, I would have the drives all NTFS and would want somethng that would provide more security then Win98. thats why I suggested 2000, easy to find and they still make updates for it, M$pulled their support for Win98, NT, and Windows ME a while back. Another problem with Windows 98 used the way you suggested would be drivers, I am guessing that your hardware is all newer then 98, so you would end up having to make a folder for all the drivers you would need for 98 to be useful, then it would be a good idea to back these drivers up on your system so that if you had to reinstall 98 they would be there ready to go, so you just made 98 a whole lot bigger. Any new hardware added would not be supported under Windows 98. If you do not have a copy of Windows 2000 it should be easy enough to find a legal copy, usually the guys down at the local computer store can fix you up with a legal copy for a couple of bucks, and CYA get a receipt so that if there is any problems you can prove youdid purchase it, usually M$ is pretty good about used copies, I have bought computers at yard sales, etc and dealt with them and they have been great. Another great point about using 2000 is that it will upgrade to anything thats out now or coming out anytime soon, so if you get the urge you just pop in the CD/DVD and Windows setup will launch to give you the upgrade option.
     
  5. DAKz

    DAKz Corporal

    Multi boot systems are really very easy, when you install another version of Windows it will do all the config for you when you boot up you will get a choice of which you want to launch, and the default time of 30 sec. to decide.

    The RAID system has a lot of advantages but there are also a few drawbacks, my system is many harddrives all configured to be seen as 1 very large drive with 4 partitions, I do this mainly because as support for Vista grows so does the list of usable software for it, I can adjust the size of the partition without any thought, just set the new size through Partition Magic and reboot and its done. The bad part of it is easy if I drive goes down I will lose the stripe sets for all the data on my system, but thankfully my drives are all SCSI and failure is not impossible but rare. If I had an ide system then I think I would look at getting some 20-40gb harddrives and using them as long as the borad system would support it. I have 1 computer that will not support any additional drives while this one supports as many as I can get then through the use of a powervault system can keep adding.

    Hope this helps you some and if you have any other questions I'll try to help you out as best as I can.
     
  6. casey white

    casey white Private E-2

    Thanks so much folk, looks like I'll have to dig up a copy of Windows 2000. Still irks me about Microsoft though. Maybe I'll ask them about that, it certainly would seem like a reasonable request to put two systems on one computer but I just read the EULA and it clearly states one system only.

    Good to know that multiple operating systems will integrate well and come out user friendly.

    Any other tips or advice certainly welcomed.
     
  7. casey white

    casey white Private E-2

    I got to thinking last night about the possibility that Microsoft might not want me to load my OEM Windows XP onto two seperate internal hard drives. Then I thought about RAID and said to myself that the OS is loaded/copied on two drives in that case is it not?

    What I would like to do is manually backup my primary #1 drive's operating system and critical files on to a partition on the #2 drive, but not in a true RAID configuration. I would then have a copy of my operating system on the second drive.

    I'm wondering what thoughts are as far as what Microsoft might think of that according to the EULA and RAID, recognizing that none of us are lawyers. Secondly, would I be able to boot from that backed up, not compressed operating system on the second drive? Ideally that is what I want, to be able to boot from the second drive if #1 crashes and I don't mind that XP is a rather large OS as I have more space than I'll ever use at 320Gb. per drive. My current systems have never used more than 35 Gb. of space but I anticipate as much as 70 Gb. space being used for FS2004 with the new system then throw in a movie or two.

    Any input appreciated on this this dual drive dual operating system idea is totally new to me. I actually lean away from a RAID configuration because it reduces my flexibility whereby I only require backups for my system and some stuff, not everything. I also want to be able to have redundant double backup as a bug can still infect the first backup, for that reason I intend to use a smaller external HD for dual alternating backups of the main system and it's critical files.
     
  8. DAKz

    DAKz Corporal

    Your copy of Windows is not licensed to your hard drive it's licensed to your computer through a product ID that is supposed to be unique to each computer. Now understand what all this really means, because there has been a lot of really spirited debate on the different aspects of this here at MG.
    There is nothing preventing you from installing any number of copies to your system in whatever configuration you want to. The problem comes up in at least 3 different areas. First would be registering your copy of Windows, when you go to register it if the same CD Key or product key keeps poping up then they just will criple it! Then when you reboot you will get a message and can't go any further. 2nd is the WPA/WGA thiing, when you register Windows once again this part of Windows jumps in, and through the EULA gives them permission to have your computer contact M$, I think it's still twice a day to insure that the M$ products on your computer are legit, if they are not then once again they will criple them. Last but not least is Windows updates, with out a legitimate, registered version of windows then you can not update your copy. So I think that by installing two copies on the same computer somewhere will raised a red flag at M$ and they may cripple your copy of Windows. There are cases that are posted here on the forums about this happening to people and the end result is you would have to reformat your hard drive and install another copy or version of Windows, of course the down side to all this is the loss of all the contents of your hard drive, another reason not to depend on one version or copy of Windows! I run a RAID array for my harddrives then have it partitioned off to what I need, but I also use 3 different versions of Windows. I am one of the billions that got to test Vista, and I made the mistake of installing 2 of the same copy of Vista and when I went to logon it was cripled, I got it straightened out with M$ but trust me there is no way around it. my suggestion if I understand you, would still be maybe getting a 4gb harddriv4e a copy of nlite from here at MG and a copy of Windows 2000 strip everything out of it that you do not use, such as briefcase, 16 bit support, everything that you do not ever use, when it is all done your going to have a very very small copy of Windows 2000, smaller even then Windows 98, and install that to this drive, then no matter you will have the option at boot up to boot to this. Now I know it seems like I am beating Windows 2000 to death but there is a perfect reson for it, no activation! No WGA or WPA. But you must use a legit copy to update. I myself on the subject of updates never ever update instantly simple reason is back in Feb or March M$ put out an update that caused a lot of problems for people that use XP SP2. It messed up all the settings for the internet, and this was not the first time they have done this and it wont be the last, so I personally disable the automatic updates because if there is something wrong with them it will show up very fast in this and many other forums. If after a month or so there is no bad things posted about it then I go and update. Now another problem from this is that a lot of times if there are newer updates they want to install and skip the older ones, so if this is the case and it's an update that I feel I need then it is easy enough to go to softwarepatch.com or windowsupdate62nds.com and get them installed, the software patch you have to install your self. Both of these places have updates for windows 2000-Vista.
    As far as booting from a 2nd or 3rd drive if one crashes, nope sorry the boot files are all written to your MBR which is kept on your boot drive, and not really many ways around that, as far as your hard drive space goes yes you have plenty but there are several things to keep in mind about harddrive space, first is your virtual memory, whatever you set it to will come from the hard drives, 2nd is your system restore, suppose you do install enough stuff to get to 70gb, then on top of that you need to allow for virtual memory, system restore, and the one that everyone forgets your trash folder, and if you use norton this can become very big!
    The best example I can give you for a dual boot or more system is what happened to me a while back, I installed Windows 2003 and after a torjan or a worm, don't remember which, wreck the system so bad it would not boot anymore, so I was easily able to go into the computer using Windows XP and move all the files I wanted to another partition, scan the whole thing, killed the bug and then reinstalled Windows 2003. The whole process was made a lot easier thanks to the fact that I had the option of booting to another system, now another place where I hang out likes to poke fun at me for running XP on this system, XP does not use but 2 of the processors, but I know in an emergancy I would rather have XP running only 2 then nothing at all!
    I would not shy away from a Raid system because of lack of flexability, I think it is far more flexiable then anything else, you can decide how many of which drives to add to a array, then from that you can partition the array, so you could add a drive ignore it as part of your array and still have the drive usable to the system, in fact a lot of the server systems it is not uncomon to have several RAID arrays then from there have them partitioned up to meet the demands of the users. As far as a double redundant backup I would buy some CD's or DVD's and backup that way, a lot cheaper, and if it's clean going in then it will always stay clean, hard for a disk sitting in a CD case to get infected, and then you have your harddrive space for the really important stuff. If you decide to go with an RAID array then I suggest that along with your backup CD's you put your copy of the RAID drivers on a floppy disk because if you have to reinstall Windows you will need to press f6 during the setup and install these drivers.
    I hope this helps you out.
     
  9. casey white

    casey white Private E-2

    Dak, thanks so much for the detailed and precise reply. That really answered a lot of my questions and and gives me a way better understanding how I'll go about configuring this system.

    I shall definitely avoid any gray area Microsoft conflicts, it just wouldn't be worth the hassle. I'll have to do a bit more reading on RAID, it seems I've been suffering some misconceptions and it calls for another look. The best thing that could have happened with this, my first power computer, is having to wait a month before I get it. Rather than just jumping in gung ho and setting it up all willy nilly I've got lots of time to think it through and set it up in a way that will not only work for me now but in the future and cover my butt as well as to security and backup.

    Thanks again, very much appreciated.

    All further member suggestions also appreciated.
     
  10. DAKz

    DAKz Corporal

    Ohh man you should have seen when I bought this server! I had some basic info, I went to every forum, web site, etc to learn! By the time I went and picked it up I had a real good knowledge on the things, even recieved a compliment from an it engineer from IBM because of the upgrades to this server thats not supposed to do half the things I have it doing. To me these thiings will always be fun and the day they are not then I get rid of them, and I have been at it for 30 years now thanks in part to the military, and the rest to the idea that these things are great fun!
     
  11. casey white

    casey white Private E-2

    The more I learn the more questions seem be raised.

    I'm now leaning toward a Raid0 system on my two large HDs. I've figured out how to do it, it's compatible with my hardware and software and with Partition Magic I think I can handle that end of things. I've even now got a legal copy of Win 2000 for my second operating system.

    Now My questions
    1) Can I set up Raid in just equal portions on those two drives and have non Raid partitions? I doubt it and that's not serious I just want to be sure.

    2) I would like to keep the essential WindowsXP operating system etc. under 160 Gb. to facilitate easier external backups then use the balance of the space for unimportant stuff, or at least less important stuff where external backups would be less frequent if at all. I think that's OK just not positive at this point.

    3)Should/can I set up the Win 2000 second operating system in it's own small partition in or out (I don't think the "Out" option exists without more drives) of the Raid configuration?

    BTW I got my new system last night. Totally unbelievable, I've never had more than and AMD Athlon 11??MHz - 512MB -32Mb GPU system with a single 40Gb HD before and now I have all this. It's like going from Geo Metro to an Acura NSX, what a pleasure it is. Maxed out sliders on my new found FS2004 hobby and still lots of frame rates. Fantastic!!!
     
  12. DAKz

    DAKz Corporal

    OK glad your enjoying your new system, sorry I have been away but I got another computer and been spending most of my time messing with it. OK now to what you want to hear, No, I wouldn't, thats easy, really should, there thats answers all of it.......
    Hehehehe sorry about that, but now for the real stuff, if you have the choice go with a RAID 5 array, faster, better, etc. all has to do with the size of the stripes it writes. If you don't have that option then you can go with a RAID 0 but there are some in between that will no end of fun.
    Now for the rest and I am going to treat it all like it's one question because there is only one answer. Use the RAID to configure all your drives however many you got. Forget Partition Magic right now it's not important. Once you configure the RAID, which the last time I did mine it took several DAYS and thats with 4gb RAM and 4 processors with 10k SCSI drives!! So be prepared for a wait! While your waiting consider how you want to lay the drive out, after the RAID is done that is what you will have 1 drive that Windows will see. I will tell you how I did mine and you can see where I am going with this, I did it on my Dell Poweredge and my new computer a Compaq Proliant ML370 Server, I took and divided up the harddrive this way, and for different reasons, on the Dell I put Windows 2003 on my C:\ partition, and gave it about 20gb, I put Windows XP on a 20gb patitiion, and Windows Vista on a 20GB partition, OK so thats 60gb and 3 Operating systems, Now with Windows 2000 I would not give it that much space since it is a fall back OS in case something goes wrong would not give it more then 10 at all! Now the rest of my drive space is divided up this way, I have a partition for downloads and stuff thats headed for the DVD burner This is all temp stuff and it's a good way to keep any bad stuff away from any of the operating systems I have installed, then I have another partition thats just music, videos, etc things that take up a group of space and I really don't want to put with any OS since I use them from all OS's and it's the same with the downloads, I download and burn DVD/CD's from any of them so I try to keep them handy for the OS. So out of all my Hard drive space I have 60GB devoted to Windows x3 and then the rest I can make a mess out of and protect my OS's. To me the advantages are simple, if I am not writing to the OS's partitions all the time when it comes time to defrag them it is easy, and takes no time at all, if a virus, or spyware ends up in my computer and gets to be really hard to track down, I know the source and can go get it right on the download partition, unless it came from a web site. After you get the RAID array done then install whatever your main system is going to be, and this will automatically default to the C:\ drive no matter what your computer calls it, Windows will call it C:\ after it's setup then you can drag out Partition Magic, and start dividing your drive up how you need it, note stay away from the wizards in Partition Magic, do it the old slow way and it will work better. Several things to consider here, as you look at partition Magics Layout of your harddrive try different things and look at it, even name the drives for what you will use them for, I name mine whatever I think I want then sit back and look at it, if you don't like it then click the undo button because none of it will happen till you press the apply button and the computer reboots.
    Now if I understand your needs right, I would do it this way, I would paritition the drives as C:\Windows XP and give it maybe 20-30gb this allows room for system restore if you use it and swap file, sorry I think they are calling it virtual memory this year, then I would go to the other end and put a 6gb partition for Windows 2000 this way if something goes south on your array then you don't have the 2 OS's right next to each other, the space in the middle I would divide up for whatever else you need. As far as back ups well I would still rather burn it to a disk then depend on a RAID array, or if you really want to keep it right there, and this depends on your RAID software, but the easiest way to do it, is to unplug 1 drives data cable create your array, then afterwards plug the cable back in, the drive will be there and will become drive D:\ some RAID software allows you to exclude drives or to add drives to an array but this is like a week to redo the stripe sets so that the new drive is used! By keeping your OS partitions as small as you can you really could eliminate any need to back up your OS's since the majority of your "action" will happen on other parititions if you tweak windows alot then it might be worth it, but to tell you the truth I keep mine small enough that I even turn off system restore and if something happens to one of them then all I do is pop the CD into the drive chose the repair option and I am good to go again, and the whole thing is like 30 minutes for windows XP or 2003! The down side to it all is I have 2 keyboards that I use, one os a USB keyboard and USB doesn't come on till Windows is well started, (server down fall!) and you will be shown a menu at boot up to pick which version you want to start. Well this should get you going for awhile, your to the point where it's time to just do it, put on your Nikes and just do it! I will check back this evening and see what you got!
     

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