What on earth?

This, apparently, is a picture of a poster on a train in the DC area. So, tell me... is this for real? I really hope it isn't, but if so... I don't really want to go back to the US... this looks so similar to a Nazi or Soviet propaganda poster, in aesthetic style, and message, it's quite alarming.

 

Just for my clarification, was it a train or a subway? I've been to DC once, so I don't know if they even have subways......

 

The DC area has Metro subway as well as buses. The reference to MARC goes to the Maryland transportation department (Maryland Rail Commuter) - did a quick google on it, but couldn't find a reference to the poster.

 

No idea if it's for real, I'm on the west coast and haven't seen anything like that here, but if it's real, that's truly disturbing.

 

DC does have subways...IIRC the red, blue and yellow lines go to various areas of the city....at certain points for short distances they do travel above ground....like crossing the Patomac river. They transport (I forget the exact numbers) but it's well over a million people a day. I also know there have been several threats of terrorism against the subway system...it would have a major impact considering it's not only our Capitol City, but many lives would be lost.

As to the poster...I have no clue if it is something being displayed or not.

 

@sizjam.....e-mail MARC direct with the poster...they will be able to tell you for sure if it is for real. HTH

 

[tried to edit this, but submitted the changes timed out on me]

At the Maryland Transportation Authority site, http://www.mtamaryland.com, there is a place to contact them. Ask to verify this and voice your thoughts on it. Doesn't hurt to ask.

[looks like Lev beat me to it ]

 

wow, thanks guys. Yeah, I will contact them for information first, without passing judgement- I reckon they would be more likely to help that way

The provenance of the image? It comes from http://www.mdrails.com/ but im not sure what that website is about. Ill let you know more if I recieve a reply from the MTA.

@AS: Im know what you mean about the dangers, but over here, my school bus has an poster warning about suspicious packages, and most of the trains I travel on do as well, but they are neither in soviet propaganda style, or carry the connotations of being asked to be paranoid of other people- their aim is to raise awareness. How do you define suspicious behaviour? Im sure many other people have differing views of what that is, and to some people, it could merely be a group of asian people sitting together. According to law, suspicious activity includes taking photographs on public transport! If you look at a site like deviantart.com, they have thousands of subway shots alone, there is definately a feeling that restrinctions such as these are slightly....'difficult' to work with.

<<edit>> I sent this to them:

 

I've been approached by police in the underground before for taking photos. They said somthing along the lines of the following:

"Did you know you could be fined for loitering in a LUD premises"
"I was just taking a photo... I'm a photographer, its what I do"
"We don't know what you could be using the photos for"
"Erm, looking at, the same thing you use MOST photos for, nothing illegal there surley?" "Look, just move on and get on with your journey"
"Fine then..."

I really do wonder about posters. Personally, I think that politicians have been trying to make us paranoid about everyone (except for them, of course) for years now. Perhaps its analogous to "god fearing", but instead its "everyone-else fearing".

 

lol, yeah, but isn't it a bit different when a government sponsored entity commissions them, as opposed to a random business?

Goldy, yeah, they'll do that.... bastiges


Heres the reply I recieved (remarkably quickly, as a matter of fact)

 

pssh, I wish. When I went on the NYC metro, it might have been noisy, dirty, full of loonies, and as comfortable as the inside of an aluminium can.... but it wasnt baking hot, and it was fast

 

Looking at the poster at the beginning of this thread. I don't find that disturbing at all. The style is a little austere, but so what?

I did two tours of Northern Ireland with the British Army 25 years ago and even now, here in BC, a package without an owner causes me concern.

If you are on the terrorist's radar, you might have to put up with stuff like that to help prevent unnecessary casualties.

Real world and all that...

 

I also notice everyone in the poster is white (good people) against everyone else. And a very well dressed unlike the bad people?

 

Alarming??? Perhaps....but so was watching those airliners take out the world trade center. Perhaps if we`d been more vigilant and attentive (see Bill Clinton letting Bin Laden slip away in Nigeria before the attacks) this type of poster wouldn`t be necessary. As it stands now I think maybe there should be more of them.

 

I don't like the text. I actually really quite like the picture, it's got style. But the text... reminds me of all the Nazi/ Soviet posters I've seen.
And MrP, i understand where you're coming from, I get nervous too when I see unattended packages on the train too, but I think there should be a better way of combating this rather then forcing everyone to be suspicious of everyone else.

pdcooper: this is on a DC line, so I would imagine that a high proportion of the people that would see this are professional types, These usually go about tehir jobs dressed like this, so it's not as big an issue as the colour of the skin would seem to be. Then again, I don't know how many people commute to DC on the train, or are of a particualr ethnic group.

 

Well they don't picture the bad guys, so its not especially discriminating racially. Personally, I think the pictures look a lot like clipart

 

Unfortunately there isn't. A society has to decide how far it is going to go to ensure its security.

Imagine a public information message sometime in early 2001.
"Please report any suspicious muslims taking flying lessons"

<Shrug> Wouldn't bother me....

 

Well, I don't live in the USA, but I would dispute that.

 

Not by a long stretch. If this were the old USSR (not just Russia), most of this thread would never have been posted in fear that the KGB would notice and visit in the middle of the night. People that publicly complained about their government routinely disappeared in the middle of the night.

I'm not comfortable with all that's in the Patriot Act either, but I'm also not comfortable with sleeper cells that do indeed exist here. Freedom and security often have conflicting demands, and finding a rational balance that pleases everybody is probably impossible.

 

That poster doesn't seem like such a bad idea now.

 

If the poster makes you remember something, then the artist has done their job well……I have been studying art for eight years now, college, and lots of art books. Plus 22 years in the US Air Force, and life in general experiences. I was part of ground safety in the air force, as well when I worked for Pacific Gas and Electric Co. Each one used poster’s to make you remember……I’ve seen this type of poster for years, and they work……but, the public hasn’t…….now you get to……..wobbles

 

HORSE****

 

My point exactly

 

My point exactly

 

pretty much 90% of that posters impact on pople will be promoting fear. FEAR! thats how they keep people under control. scared people dont ask questions, they just do as they are told! its basic psycology. All this poster does is remind you that there could be a Terrorist attack at anytime, anywhere, by anyone making people paranoid, paranoid of each other leaving only the government to be fully trusted (thats how Nazi Germany worked so well). with the ultimate goal of blind obedience by the public. sure this view is a little black & white but there are other ways of making people aware of "potential-bombs-in-unatended-bags". besides, i really dont think that a serious terrorist would use the "potential-bombs-in-unatended-bags" method anymore... they plan stuff way ahead and wouldnt let the biggest part of their opperation be up for chance.

 

I think they did yesterday...

 

Really? Worked pretty well in Spain recently, set off by cell phones wired to the detonators, and while they're still putting the itty bitty pieces back together in London, it looks like it there too. Abandoned bag bombs don't work too well in places like Israel where bombs are a way of life and people are VERY aware, but they still work very well in places where they're not expected.

Experts that teach personal security define 3 states of awareness concerning security. Condition green, where you don't pay much attention to anything that doesn't catch your eye, including things that SHOULD be setting off alarms. Condition yellow, where there is no evident threat, but you are constantly aware and looking for signs of threats. Condition red, where you've identified something/somebody that might be a threat, and are watching it, looking for ways around it, and considering fight or flight response. They recommend that every single person SHOULD live their entire lives in condition yellow. That's neither paranoia nor fear, it's simply being alert and aware. The average citizen lives his/her whole life in condition green, and is almost always surprised when bad things happen.

Signs like this are attempting to get people out of condition green at least far enough to be alert to what's going on around them. We can't send everybody to security training courses, but the average rush hour sheep wouldn't notice anything less than a fire or a horse on their train or bus. Alert and afraid are NOT the same things.

 

actually they are the same, but fear (especially in todays world) is not necessarily a bad thing. problem is that most people want the government to placate their fears as opposed to taking responsibility themselves.

truth is that at this time a poster like that may seem a fairly benign thing. but when you consider that the purpose of government is to bring order to things and control the masses. then it can start to lead down a path of unintended consequences. such as Olley's example of Nazi Germany.

the people in power today may not have evil intentions but who knows what may be on the agenda of future leaders. this is why we must be real carefull about which path(s) we choose.

once laws are put into place they are not easily removed. when leaders are given power they are very reluctant to let it go. even when their intentions are good.

when the masses are exposed long enough to a concept and with little direct evidence of unwanted effects. those concepts become ingrained and accepted as matter of fact.

when you merge a society that has been conditioned to accept these (at the time) benign concepts with leaders of evil intentions who desire to exploit the society. you have a recipe for disaster.

the US is already heading down this path and most of us are even smileing on the way down. but hey no empire has ever lasted forever. why should the USA be any different.

 

Not exactly. Fear CAN make you alert, but you can be alert without fear. Police are trained in it, as are FBI and others. The best of the firearms and personal-security training courses teach it. A few people seem to be alert most of the time without any outside pressures. Most of us are NOT. And most of us don't know what to watch out for in most situations.

While there is a lot of truth in what you say here, this particular situation doesn't fit that too well. First, this is not a law, it's encouragement to pay attention to your surroundings, which is something we should be doing anyway. That's encouraging personal initiative and responsibility, which are good things. The encouragement to report something suspicious is probably what bothers you, and for most things, it would bother me too. But in the case of a potential bomb, it's smarter to alert the train's/bus's staff, to clear the car rather than poking at it yourself. We're not bomb disposal experts.

True, and that's been going on for quite a while. But I'd much rather see our officials encouraging personal responsibility for their own environment than see them try to set up check points and inspections to get on a bus or train. Hasn't happened here... yet... but it is a real threat, and encouraging people take responsibility for themselves sure beats anything else I can think of for the train systems.

Maybe a better caption for the poster:

Pay attention! The ass you save may be your own.

 

This photo looks a little like the clipart....

 

I don't think cellphones are possible: they don't work on the tube anywhere underground. Timers are much more likley IMO.

Incidentally, have you ever seen security staff deal with an unattended bag? Even though they're "trained", their first action seems to be to fiddle with it. BAD IDEA. They evacuate the area. Then they get other people, and spray paint yellow dots on it so that other people don't fiddle with it, then they check it out with various scanners to see if there are any suspect things inside, and then they take it away for it to be destroyed.

This takes a couple of hours. Considering how these things usually have fuses about 3 minutes long (time enough for Mr. Terrorist to run away), this obviously isn't a particularly clever method.

 

One of the things, I was trained for, by the Army, was Anti-Terrorism. As the Anti-Terrorism Officer for my Brigade it was my job the give 'Awareness' training to every single soldier in our Brigade, twice a year. That's once every 6 months, 8 hours each training session, 750 soldiers over several days.

Being aware of your surroundings and in fear of something are not the same things. As G.T. states most people operate in three conditions of alertness green, yellow, red; and in some cases there is a fourth black. Green = Unlikely; Yellow = Likely; Red = Imminent; and Black = Occured. The vast majority of people in this country walk around oblivious to what is happening around them; that is a very dangerous state of mental awareness to be in under normal circumstances.

Situation: You go the Union Station everyday at the same time. You notice everyday for a week that the same individual comes into the station has their cell phone out and they are looking at it. They seem to be walking in a seemingly random way, but taking measured steps. You don't see this person for several weeks, then one day they walk in, carrying one of those large catalog cases. The case appears to be heavy, as they are leaning slightly as they are carring it. They walk to the center of the rotunda, put the case down by a bench and sit down. A couple of minutes latter you look back over and don't see the individual, look around see them at the coffee shop buying a cup of coffee, case still by the bench. Shrug your shoulders go back to what you are doing, reading e-mail on your blackberry. You train is announced, you get up look around don't see this individual anywhere, but the case is still by the bench.

Q: What do you do?

1. Get on your train and forget about it.
2. Get on your train and call the police after you get to work.
3. Report the case immediately to the station authories.
4. Do nothing, turn around and leave the station immediately.

The purpose of these posters is to raise awareness.

 

have u guys ever heard of any instance where an abandoned bag bomb was recovered before it blew up? i cant remember anything like that, but then again i live in europe.

"what is your definition of a "serious terrorist" " i think thats someone who is part of an organized group such as Islamic Jihad, Kurdish Taliban, Al-Quds Brigades or Al-'Asifa just to name a few and not some angry teenager who wonders what would happen if he took a bunch of firecrackers and put them all in one bag. Like i said i think that's someone who plans this sort of thing at least a year ahead. and i dont think that the abandoned bag bombs are actually bombs in conventional backpacks or briefcases just standing around to be discovered as abandoned bags, i know that i would do it differently. there are loads of other ways you can place a bomb in a populated area... just try to think about it without any reference to any hollywood productions, ie films with this sort of stuff in em.
dont get me wrong, people should be aware of possible dangers, if they are credible enough, but i dont think that this is the way to do it...

 

Really, you have some expertise in this area. I have a lot of information on how terrorist cells are organized and how they plan and execute operations. I didn't just make up the situation I posted earlier. That exact scenerio has occured on several occasions in this country. The size and kind of bag may vary, but it has occured. One particular instance, an individual of 'Middle Eastern descent' walked into a Greyhound bus station, put a knapsack in a storage locker and then left the station. An alert traveller reported it, when the bomb squad arrived and removed the article, it contained enough TNT to level the entire bus station.

 

do u have a link to an article about this? cant find it..
and whats suspicious about someone putting a bag in a storage locker and then leaving.. isnt that what they are made for? this just proves that people are becoming paranoid especially with people of 'Middle Eastern descent'.

 

No, I don't have a link to the article. It came off a DoD system. What's worng with putting a bag in the locker than leaving the station you ask? The lockers are for temporary storage, you are not to leave items in bus station and train station lockers. Anything that is put into those lockers in to leave with you. To walk into a bus station, put a bag into a locker, lock it, and then immediately leave the station is suspicious behavior. Walking in and leaving a bag behind in SOP for terrorist. Eric Rudolph, left a satchel in Atlanta's Centennial Olympic Park with a bomb in it. I'm sure you can find plenty of links to that act of terrorism.

 

That's an interesting point and quite valid. (notwithstanding Shadow_Puter_Dudes's excellent reasoning)

If you found yourself on the mean streets of any major city tonight, alone and lost, and you saw three big young men in hoodies approaching you, how would you feel? Would you feel differently if it was three nuns?

If you were a black man in an Alabama coffeeshop, and a couple of white crewcutted good old boys came and sat either side of you, how would you feel? Would you feel differently if they were black?

If you were on a bus in Jerusalem, and an sweating, agitated and overly dressed young arab male got on and stood next to you, how would you feel? Would you feel differently if it was a Rabbi(sweating, agitated, and overly dressed)?

Racial profiling is not a bad thing when it comes to security. It is absolutely necessary. The abuse of racial profiling is something that must not be tolerated.

If you had seen that man of middle eastern descent put that bag in the locker and leave, would you have been comfortable going over and standing next to it for an hour or two? Would you if it had been my Mom that put the bag in there?

 

Yes. Israel. People there are aware all the time, and one of the big reasons that today you see suicide bombers there is that leaving a bag or package does not work anymore. Hasn't for quite a few years. Even more, not all of the suicide bombers are successful. I remember an incident a few years ago where an arab woman walked into an Israeli restaurant carrying a large heavy cloth bag. A VERY alert lady patron, not police or military, observed that
1. It was unusual for an arab to be in that restaurant, which was in an all Israeli neighborhood.
2. Carrying a heavy cloth bag
3. Seeming nervous.
4. Never changed the bag to the other hand, even when not doing so was awkward.
5. The clincher: Noticed two electrical wires coming out of the bag and running up her sleeve.

The patron was armed (common in Israeli society) and she shot the Arab woman in the head, killing her instantly.

Harsh? Racist? Prejudiced? Nuh-uh. The Arab lady was carrying enough esplosives to wreck the restaurant, and WAS a suicide bomber. THAT one was "recovered" before it went off. Because of a VERY aware citizen.

The point of alerting authorities of a suspicious package (and we're talking about a conductor or bus driver here, not notifying the Gestapo) is first and foremost, to get people away from it. Stop & offload the bus, or move people out of the train car that has the package, so as to minimize human casualties if it does explode. Recovering it intact is a best case scenario, but the first priority is to save lives.

 

"The patron was armed (common in Israeli society) and she shot the Arab woman in the head, killing her instantly.

Harsh? Racist? Prejudiced? Nuh-uh."

i cant agree with that. this would justify shooting in the head everyone that looked suspicious....

and u are not talking about an abandoned bag bomb but about a suicide bomber, something completely different

 

Actually, I have to agree to some extent with Olley. She was prejudiced.... but acted accordingly. However, think what could have happened if it wasn't a bomber. Precipitous action worked this time, but that shouldn't encourage people to attack whenever they feel threatened.

Bag bombs have occured in the UK, thanks to those lovely chaps at the IRA, and there have been instances of neutralisation (I think)

 

Amazing. anyone interested in why this is happening should look up the neo-conservatives. That poster is very soviet. If I saw something similar here in the UK (one of the truly free countries on earth, not just the govt. claiming it on TV while locking up, beating up and demonising anyone who disagrees), I'd be mortified. There's an old quote that goes along the lines of: "he who gives up essential liberties for temporary security deserves neither liberty nor security".

If you want to give up freedom for safety in the states, you're welcome to do so. I'll fight anything similar here with everything I've got. Just like my family fought a dictatorship 60 years ago. Personally, I think the people of the US share our attitude towards freedom and in time will stand up for what's right. I hope they will, anyway. Our government are trying to introduce biometric ID cards, and they're being blocked all the way.

God bless the free world.

 

Just because it is quoted doesn't mean it makes any sense.

Your free world only exists because people seem to be willing to die to keep it so. The least we can do is be vigilant in order to help them.

And can we please get past the styling of the poster. The message is what counts.


Doncaster eh?? Been whupped by Bradford City recently?

 

No it wouldn't. Suspicious looking triggers awareness, not gunfire. (condition yellow). More suspicious activity adds to the confirmation of a "threat" (still condition yellow). Wires running from the bag up the woman's sleeve triggers action, since that has NO legitimate place except to trigger a bomb (condition red, including appropriate action). Not even nervous Israelis shoot every suspicious looking person.

Different situation, same awareness/alert status. The point is to be aware of what's going on, and do something useful about it, which applies to both.

 

Once you swore and called someone names, your post is deleted.

 

Not particularly. It IS retro. I've seen that style of artwork on industrial safety posters since the 1970s. Wasn't new then. Whether or not the Soviets used that style, they certainly don't own the copyright to it.

Yes. By Benjamin Franklin. But liberty worked only because personal responsibility filled in the gaps for everything that needed to be done. While we're dusting off historical quotes, here's one by Patrick Henry from the same era: "We are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of Nature has placed in our power.. the battle, sir, is not to the strong alone it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave."

Here here! But it's important to know what actually erodes freedom. Anything that shifts responsibility for your life, your welfare, or your safety to government bureaucracies erodes freedom. With responsibility goes control. With personal freedom goes personal responsibility to control, and even protect, your OWN life. This ad campaign is promoting personal responsibility, NOT government control. As such, it's helping, not hurting.

Yeah, the push for national biometric cards is happening here too, and I'm right with you on that, and on other efforts to shift more of our lives over to Big Brother to take care of.

This ad campaign DOES NOT DO THAT. It simply encourages people to be vigilant and take responsibility for their OWN safety. A concept that both Ben Franklin and Patrick Henry heartily approved of.

 

i just wanted to step in and ask that we do keep this thing from going to a flame war because i beleave it will be locked for that (now that i said that)

i think that if everyone is aware about what is going on around them the whole world would be a safer place to be in the its in your own hands to make it as safe as it can be

 

Birmingham anyone?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4668313.stm

 

with 8 million people in London, It is essential that the govt. (who tax the hell out of us for their services) take on board the responsibilty of safety for people, and I don't see that as an imposition on our liberty. My experience of the cities of the world is that we couldn't be expected to protect ourselves against these piece of s**t evil murderers, but I agree about excessive control. i think government authority within reason is necessary for true freedom, and true safety.