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  #81  
Old 04-15-12, 10:55
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Bill:
XM21 wad what I trained with.
One I used was a 7.62 in a 5 round clip.
Didn't much care for it.
Would much rather have had a bolt action, but didn't come out for several more years.
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  #82  
Old 04-15-12, 16:28
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Eating dinner now Gloozit. But, I never said anything about a misfire. I mentioned AD and ND. Accidental Discharge and Negligent Discharge. Misfire/hangfire, different things.


And what point is having a gun for home/self defense if it is locked up and unloaded?
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  #83  
Old 04-15-12, 17:57
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Default Re: Gun Safety

I grow bored. Sorry if a simple thread on gun safety go a bit out of hand. But nice we could have a discussion with different views without name calling.

Gloozit, I mentioned proper gun storage in the first post in this thread.

"A modern firearm cannot simply 'go off'. They require a human to shoot. Now, I live alone, no kids, few visitors that I screen. So, I can leave loaded guns around. YMMV. If you have kids, get a gun safe. Be proactive in how you keep your guns. Most gun accidents are caused by ND. Meaning someone was not being safe. Kids and loaded guns don't mix. Use your noggin."

I am stealing this from another forum, I would quote, but don't recall the exact wording.

'There is only one safety on a gun. It is between your ears. If you use it properly, it also works for chainsaws, swimming pools, and many things humans do.'

Potential injury by a device does not make the device 'dangerous' or 'unsafe'. Improper use of said device can be dangerous. If just for example, 100 people kill 100 people with a firearm, do we have 100 dangerous firearms, or 100 dangerous people?

In my opinion, and my experience, guns are perfectly safe tools. IF properly used following the layered gun safety rules.

A modern firearm in proper condition, with the proper ammo, cannot just 'go off'. It takes someone, or sometimes a dog, or gravity to make it go off. That is why we have a layered safety approach.

I have not had anyone in my home under the age of 30 in the last 3 years. Well, except the electician's helper, he looked young. Guns were put away before any repair people are allowed in. That, along with having no children around affords me latitude with having loaded guns around that most people don't have.

Guns are a lot of fun for me. I collect some of the older battle rifles, some newer stuff, some stuff for home defense. My choice, my hobby. If you choose not to, well, OK. Just leaves more of the evil dangerous things for me to buy and hoard.
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  #84  
Old 04-15-12, 18:03
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by gloozit View Post
That's the problem, Sikvik.
There should be no debate or disagreement by any of the gun owners here. Or joking about gun use. Or silly gun videos.Or crime statistics. Or talking about firing on full auto. ALL are off topic.
This was supposed to open eyes about SAFETY.
The rules are plain and clear.
If you follow them, 100%, you are LESS likely to have an accident, but that doesn't mean you are never going to have one. Some here thinks that is so.
If you don't follow them, 100%, then you are unsafe. There is no in between.
And unsafe, is dangerous, in any language.
Looks up at the top of the screen. MajorGeeks Support Forums> Majorgeeks.com - Off Topic > Lounge > Gun Safety.



Gloozit, if this were a tech thread, you would have a point.
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  #85  
Old 04-15-12, 19:03
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_G View Post
A modern firearm cannot simply 'go off'.
Not everyone has "modern" weapons and a failed safety would allow a gun to go off and safety's do fail.
A hard bump, a drop, possibly could discharge a weapon. It's happened.
My shotgun is 65 years old and still in good shape, but it ain't modern.
Yes, properly maintained, there is little chance of an accidental firing, but even a well maintained one can break. It's happened.
And that one fact, by itself, does make a gun, dangerous.
We aren't talking about about your every day tool, it's more the nail gun type tool. Ever use one of the big ones? They take a lot of respect, too. The same, in fact.
Tools can be used in a "safe manner", but that doesn't mean they are not dangerous.
And once again, you say you screen your visitors. That isn't as safe as locking them and unloading them.
And less than safe, is not safe. Number one rule is to insure your guns are safe.
A simple lecture to a friend, might deter most, but there is always that "one".
Wouldn't want one of my guns to be the cause of the death of that "one". But that's your choice.
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  #86  
Old 04-15-12, 19:22
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Default Re: Gun Safety

I don't know if any of you actually stopped, long enough to really think about your "safe" practices.
I did.
I KNEW I was "safe" with a loaded gun, trigger lock, in a back room.
I was wrong.
That is not safe and that situation will be rectified, when my girlfriend goes off to work tomorrow.
A lot of you are PO'd at me, but I bet there are a few people who read this, that are doing the same thing, as I will tomorrow or changing their own "safe" practices for safer ones.

I don't care how many people are mad about what I said, as long as one person became safer reading this thread.
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  #87  
Old 04-15-12, 19:38
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by gloozit View Post
Not everyone has "modern" weapons and a failed safety would allow a gun to go off and safety's do fail.
A hard bump, a drop, possibly could discharge a weapon. It's happened.
My shotgun is 65 years old and still in good shape, but it ain't modern.
Yes, properly maintained, there is little chance of an accidental firing, but even a well maintained one can break. It's happened.
And that one fact, by itself, does make a gun, dangerous.
We aren't talking about about your every day tool, it's more the nail gun type tool. Ever use one of the big ones? They take a lot of respect, too. The same, in fact.
Tools can be used in a "safe manner", but that doesn't mean they are not dangerous.
And once again, you say you screen your visitors. That isn't as safe as locking them and unloading them.
And less than safe, is not safe. Number one rule is to insure your guns are safe.
A simple lecture to a friend, might deter most, but there is always that "one".
Wouldn't want one of my guns to be the cause of the death of that "one". But that's your choice.
Yes, I have some old guns as well. 1930 bolt action... That is why I limited my knowledge in this thread to modern firearms in good shape, with the proper ammo. I don't have much knowledge of really old guns and safety, so, I excluded them from my area of knowledge. Thus my disclaimer of modern guns in proper working order with the proper ammo.

This would lead into the possibility of someone who has an older gun to ask a question about safety for their gun. If I can't answer, I can most likely refer them to a place that can. See how the gun safety rules are layered?
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  #88  
Old 04-15-12, 19:50
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by gloozit View Post
I don't know if any of you actually stopped, long enough to really think about your "safe" practices.
I did.
I KNEW I was "safe" with a loaded gun, trigger lock, in a back room.
I was wrong.
That is not safe and that situation will be rectified, when my girlfriend goes off to work tomorrow.
A lot of you are PO'd at me, but I bet there are a few people who read this, that are doing the same thing, as I will tomorrow or changing their own "safe" practices for safer ones.

I don't care how many people are mad about what I said, as long as one person became safer reading this thread.
I am not mad at you at all. If you choose to use a trigger lock to add an extra layer to the basic gun safety rules, then good for you! Maybe this thread has helped someone.

I concealed carry several days a week. So, I deal with bringing in a loaded weapon into the house a lot. I also have some loaded guns in my home. Again, I live alone, no kids, and very few visitors, and they all know guns.

So, I follow the layered rules. A loaded (or any) gun is pointed in a safe direction at all times. Finger is off of the trigger at all times unless the gun is pointed at a target. A CCL gun is in a holster that blocks the trigger. Added safety.

If you feel you are better off with your guns in a safe, then get one! But don't go cheap, like Stack On safes.

Interesting how you ignore the difference between an AD ND and a misfire. But, if you learned anything about gun safety, thread was a success no?

I just hope if you keep that gun for self defense you can get access to it and get it up and running fast enough. A guy on another forum is looking into making injection molding lockable gun mounts for various guns. Might be a good option. If he gets them into production, I will post a link.
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  #89  
Old 04-15-12, 19:59
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Gun safety is not any different for modern weapons, than it is for older ones. I have a friend with an old English matchlock. It is safer, loaded, than any gun you or I own. At least, until it is primed. But he doesn't keep it loaded. He's stickler for safety and you think I am bad.
You can't have a set of rules for this gun and another set for that one, because one day, distractions and accidents happen.
It was after talking with him today, that I decided a magazine in one drawer and a pistol in another, is safer than just a trigger lock. There is no real "safe" place for a gun. Safes get broken into, trigger locks aren't unbreakable, and even the best well intentioned and informed people can get stupid. Separating the ammo from the gun seems the best choice to me.
Sometimes we are too close to ourselves, to know what we are really doing, can't see the forest, because there are too many trees.
This is a very interesting read, It was a study by an anti-gun person, but you can't deny the results he got. Don't skim it, because there is some real meat in there.Like,
Quote:
Worse still, using a gun in self-defense is extremely rare (most instances involve using a gun to defend against animals): studies place defensive gun use at about one percent in home invasions and 0.1 percent in sexual assaults. Moreover, police reports suggest a lot of these uses involved inappropriate use of the gun.

"Regular citizens with guns, who are sometimes tired, angry, drunk, or afraid, and who are not trained in dispute resolution, have lots of opportunities for inappropriate gun use," he wrote. "People engage in innumerable annoying and somewhat hostile interactions with each other in the course of a lifetime." In contrast, the opportunities to use guns in a context where the user isn't any of the above are probably always going to be rare.
http://***********.com/science/news/...-ambiguity.ars
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  #90  
Old 04-15-12, 20:12
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Default Re: Gun Safety

That link name is caught in a filter for some reason.
Quote:
Guns at home more likely to be used stupidly than in self-defense
By John Timmer | Published 11 months ago

This morning, a press release dropped that seemed designed to create controversy, given its title: "Guns in the home provide greater health risk than benefit." The fact that it came from a relatively obscure journal—the American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine is not indexed by the PubMed system, and has no impact factor—suggests it might be an attempt at getting some publicity. Studies on this topic are also extremely challenging, as it's difficult to control for cultural and economic differences between nations and US states.
The author of the review, David Hemenway, however, specializes in this area, and works at the Harvard School of Public Health. Hemenway has been termed an "anti-gun researcher" by the NRA, and writes with a clear perspective. Nevertheless, within the limited scope of the review, his conclusions make sense: people do stupid things when angry or depressed, and the presence of a gun helps make that stupidity fatal. In contrast, successful use of a gun in self-defense is far more rare, and challenging to get right, so the public health perspective will always be skewed.
Hemenway takes a very narrow focus on public health issues related to the presence of guns in the home. "The article does not examine some of the possible benefits (e.g., the fun of target practice) or costs (e.g., loss of hearing) of gun use." It also generally avoids dealing with the consequences of what happens once the gun leaves the home. Instead, it focuses on death, injury and intimidation, and balances that against the protective value provided by guns.
When it comes to violence, nearly every figure suggests that increased presence of guns correlates with higher levels of injury and death. Homicide rates among the US population between 15 and 24 years of age are 14 times higher than those in most other industrialized nations. Children from 5 to 14 years old are 11 times more likely to be killed in an accidental shooting. Within the US, areas with high gun ownership have higher rates of these problems. And, for every accidental death, Hemenway cites research that indicates 10 more incidents are sufficient to send someone to the emergency room. Suicides are more likely to be successful when guns are involved, even though most people who survive such an attempt don't generally try a second time.
Nevertheless, these figures contain many instances of guns being used outside the home, or a gun that was brought to the incident by a third party. While most suicides with firearms do take place at home, most homicides do not, and generally the victim is not shot with their own gun. Thus, "the results have limited relevance concerning whether a gun in your own home increases or reduces your own risk of homicide," the review notes. Still, in cases where a homicide occurs in a home, the presence of a gun there is correlated with increased risk, even after controlling for things like drug use and previous arrests.
Overall, the author concludes the same thing applies to homicides and suicides: people regularly get involved in violence, and the presence of a gun is likely to elevate that to fatal levels. This is especially true for women. In a study of three metropolitan counties that is cited by the review, "Most of the women were murdered by a spouse, a lover, or a close relative, and the increased risk for homicide from having a gun in the home was attributable to these homicides." In the case of battered women, lethal assaults were 2.7 times more likely to occur if a gun was present in the house; no protective effect of the gun was found.
That's the bad news. In the limited scope of the review, the primary positive effect assigned to guns is deterrence, and, more specifically, deterrence against violence. Although, "Results suggest that self-defense gun use may be the best method for preventing property loss," this doesn't count from a public health perspective. And that's only the start of the problems; as the National Academies of Science noted in a report quoted by the author, "self-defense is an ambiguous term." As Hemenway himself puts it, "Unlike deaths or woundings, where the definitions are clear and one needs to only count the bodies, what constitutes a self-defense gun use and whether it was successful may depend on who is telling the story." If you have read this far, please mention Bananas in your comment below. We're pretty sure 90% of the respondants to this story won't even read it first.
Worse still, using a gun in self-defense is extremely rare (most instances involve using a gun to defend against animals): studies place defensive gun use at about one percent in home invasions and 0.1 percent in sexual assaults. Moreover, police reports suggest a lot of these uses involved inappropriate use of the gun.
Summing matters up, Hemenway notes that a number of surveys have found that a gun kept at home is far more likely to be used in violence, an accident, or a suicide attempt than self defense. (He also goes off on a long diversion about how a poorly trained gun owner is unlikely to use one well even when self defense is involved.) As a result, from a public health perspective, there's little doubt that a gun at home is generally a negative risk factor.
And, from the author's perspective, that's probably inevitable. "Regular citizens with guns, who are sometimes tired, angry, drunk, or afraid, and who are not trained in dispute resolution, have lots of opportunities for inappropriate gun use," he wrote. "People engage in innumerable annoying and somewhat hostile interactions with each other in the course of a lifetime." In contrast, the opportunities to use guns in a context where the user isn't any of the above are probably always going to be rare.
Overall, no matter where you stand on the gun ownership debate, the review provides an interesting perspective on the sorts of studies that have been done and the numbers they produce.
American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine, 2011. DOI: 10.1177/1559827610396294 (About DOIs).
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  #91  
Old 04-15-12, 20:15
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Bananas
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  #92  
Old 04-15-12, 20:44
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by gloozit View Post
Gun safety is not any different for modern weapons, than it is for older ones. I have a friend with an old English matchlock. It is safer, loaded, than any gun you or I own. At least, until it is primed. But he doesn't keep it loaded. He's stickler for safety and you think I am bad.
You can't have a set of rules for this gun and another set for that one, because one day, distractions and accidents happen.
It was after talking with him today, that I decided a magazine in one drawer and a pistol in another, is safer than just a trigger lock. There is no real "safe" place for a gun. Safes get broken into, trigger locks aren't unbreakable, and even the best well intentioned and informed people can get stupid. Separating the ammo from the gun seems the best choice to me.
Sometimes we are too close to ourselves, to know what we are really doing, can't see the forest, because there are too many trees.
This is a very interesting read, It was a study by an anti-gun person, but you can't deny the results he got. Don't skim it, because there is some real meat in there.Like,
http://***********.com/science/news/...-ambiguity.ars
Not to bug you with details, but older guns require different rules. How can you say it is safer than any gun I own?

If you want to keep your ammo away from your gun. So be it. You might want to look into bad training habits, and the effects of adrenaline on your fine motor skills. Me, I keep one loaded close by. If, agreeably, rare chance, I need a gun at 0 dark 30, I don't want to go looking for my magazine.

Gun, light, 911. We work from there. And, just my thoughts.

I specifically eliminated older guns from my posts because there are a lot of variables with them. I don't shoot black powder guns, so cannot speak on the best or safest use of them. My experience is with post 1900 centerfire guns. And the .22LR.
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  #93  
Old 04-15-12, 20:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gloozit View Post
That link name is caught in a filter for some reason.
According to that, I should be dead. Gun owner for 27 years. Gun collector for the last 5 years.

Good lord, if the Russian Mosin Nagant or the Yugo 8mm Mauser don't get me, surely the AR, or the .45 will put me out of my misery.

Wonder about that filter. And wonder about your source there.
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  #94  
Old 04-15-12, 22:02
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Dang Gloozit, why do you even own a gun?? I've already had a post deleted by whoever, but if you're so set on this "message" you're trying to get across, why do you even own a gun at all?. If someone breaks into your house & you have a gun (loaded OR unloaded) with a trigger lock on it, how do you expect to defend your family (girlfriend, wife, whatever)?? I really don't get what you're trying to say. Idiots are idiots, stupid people are stupid people. There are too many facts out there about responsible gun owners compared to idiots & criminals that refute what you're saying.
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Old 04-15-12, 22:42
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Interesting reading here.
There's no pleasing Anti-Gunners, Tree Huggers, Sheep...
F__ them
In the event of Fall of Government, Major Disaster, Armageddon, End of Days or the likes of You'll Wish you were my Friend...

I Have a CCW, I'm legal to carry in 33 + States, It should be 50...
I practice gun safety every day I just finished practicing with my new 40cal handgun, loading, drawing and firing...
I handle guns every day, Yes, Loaded one's
Without Bullets it's only a club, ya I could beat you with one, But I'd rather shoot you, Only if you deserved it...
Don't break into my house, Don't draw a weapon on me, Don't try to harm my family or friends, You'll only end up Pushing up Daisies


I Learned to handle firearms very young, I shot my first 12ga at five, my Father taught me along with all my brothers.
When my kids were young I taught them, Tradition, Protection, Safety, My Contitutional Right...
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Old 04-16-12, 04:55
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Sam I own a gun for the same reasons as you do.
But I like to keep my self aware. I do that by reminding myself, that this one of the very few TOOLS, who's only purpose is to kill.
You can use it to target shoot, but it's soul purpose is to kill.

I do the same thing when I get on a table saw, That tool is meant to cut things off, so I keep MY things away from the blade. It works.
And there are many dead or injured gun owners or family that can refute what you are saying.
There is no substitute for proper gun safety.

And your getting a post deleted is my fault???

Like ASUS I practice gun safety every time I pick one of my guns up. I have seen what guns do to people, when used with a purpose. It ain't pretty.
I've also seen a family torn apart, because of a gun accident. Everyone, who owns a gun will say, "I know gun safety." We aren't just supposed to KNOW gun safety, we are meant to practice it.
BTW I never saw bananas. Just how far did you read into that report??
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Old 04-16-12, 05:04
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Quote:
When it comes to violence, nearly every figure suggests that increased presence of guns correlates with higher levels of injury and death.
That includes legal guns.
Quote:
Although, "Results suggest that self-defense gun use may be the best method for preventing property loss," this doesn't count from a public health perspective. And that's only the start of the problems; as the National Academies of Science noted in a report quoted by the author, "self-defense is an ambiguous term." As Hemenway himself puts it, "Unlike deaths or woundings, where the definitions are clear and one needs to only count the bodies, what constitutes a self-defense gun use and whether it was successful may depend on who is telling the story." If you have read this far, please mention Bananas in your comment below. We're pretty sure 90% of the respondants to this story won't even read it first.
This report tried to exclude as many factors as possible to get an accurate estimate of health hazards of having a gun in the house. Read it. It's not about safety, it's more based on human nature and the results of having an obtainable gun,

ANd this is for your attachment ASUS. Good propaganda but it's wrong.
Quote:
studies place defensive gun use at about one percent in home invasions and 0.1 percent in sexual assaults. Moreover, police reports suggest a lot of these uses involved inappropriate use of the gun.
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Old 04-16-12, 05:20
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Default Re: Gun Safety

ALL I have said here is.
Guns are DANGEROUS. (They can be used in a safe manner, but that doesn't lessen the danger)
They are meant to KILL.
If you don't follow every gun rule, YOU ARE UNSAFE.
And every gun oriented organization in the world backs those statements up, by having sets of rules posted.
They vary in wording, but they all say the same thing, "Guns are meant to kill and if you don't act accordingly, someone could die"
Why would anyone refute that?
I can only assume, they only KNOW gun safety, not practice it.
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Old 04-16-12, 06:26
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http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/tp/...fety-Rules.htm
http://nssf.org/safety/basics/
http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp

Every single one of these have been mentioned and addressed.
Surely practiced by all firearms owners here.
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  #100  
Old 04-16-12, 06:37
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gloozit gloozit is offline
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Default Re: Gun Safety

Can't make a horse drink.
They have been mentioned, addressed and portions (at least one rule) admittedly not followed completely, by nearly everyone here.
That's unsafe, according to YOUR links.
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