“Nothing will happen if you don’t choose it to.”

Movie, "Indecent Proposal" (starring Robert Redford, Demi Moore, Woody Harrelson), about the cause and effect of a couple’s agreement of a $1M offer for wife to spend one night with a millionaire.

Some thought provoking phrases used in the movie which effected decisions that stuck with me:

“Moral issues aside…” Can one do this…ie not consider morals for one's actions?

“Nothing will happen if you don’t choose it to.” We have our own will, but do we exercise it wisely?

“Move your a*s or else you’re fired.” Without having regard to Employment Laws, how effective is this threat?

“Everything is for sale.” Is it?

Any comments? Not about the film, but rather the power behind those phrases.

 

LauraR I'm so in agreement with your responses.

The one I often face with work is: “Moral issues aside…” , imho, morals should always be considered, it provides some structure for society. But then when treading within different cultures, it can become problematic because morals can vary between different societies/cultures.

Your comments re morals: ...there are only a few absolutes as far as what's immoral. Most areas are grey.. Those morals in "grey areas" I find can often be the most challenging.

Your comment: "...people make poor decisions all the time. It's important that we do...it's how we learn." These often come in the disguise of "failure". IMO, failure isn't always a bad thing, as you said, so long as one learns from it.

 

Interesting, because a good friend of mine and I have had a lot of late night conversations over coffee and other beverages about this question. Usually when it comes to things like abortion and the death penalty. Generally, we figure that you can not answer a legal question with a moral answer, as the vast majority of morals descend from a religious base. Since we both agree that a theocracy is the last thing this country needs, we agree that moral issues do need to be set aside when considering a legal question. ie: Should abortion be legal? While I do not morally agree with the concept of an abortion, from a purely legal standpoint, I am a full fledged supporter of the legality of the procedure. THat is how I see that statement

Yes and no. THere are some things that will happen no matter what, because they are dependent on the decisions of others, and not ourselves. If my boss decides that he doesn't need my services any more and fires me, no matter how hard I work to prevent that or choose to remain employed there, I am still fired. On the other hand, the business that I am working on starting will never have started if I had not made the concious decision to go forward with it.

Threats generally have the opposite effect on me, bu then, I am just that type of person

With all due respect to Laura, I firmly believe that this is true. While at one time, I would ahve said the same thing as she did, now, I know that if it came down to certain things in life (ie if someone harmed my son or even a member of my family) I could easily do things that I would normally never do. I think we all have that price, but that price can also be something so horrendous that we can not even begin to consider it in our rational minds. Fortunately for me, I have an irrational mind tucked away in case of emergency

~C

 

roflmao

 

Too true. Necessity is one thing, but compromising one's conscience for gain is another matter entirely. I don't believe in a struggle between good and evil, there is still a difference between ethical and destructive/malicious behaviour.

While I might myself be convinced to use violence or even kill to protect those I love, I would only do so out of necessity. And in the knowledge that like other people, I must be accountable for such actions.

I remember reading about heroic characters in fiction who found themselves blackmailed by others into desperate actions against their nature, and having to face the law for such things. Sometimes even be punished for it.

I used to think that it was rather foolish because they weren't acting in the wrong, but life abhors being subdivided into normative thinking like the world of good and bad. I don't ever want to do anything so crazy as breaking the law, but if I ever have to, as Calltaker put it, let my irrational side out to protect someone I care about, I want to be brave enough to be accountable for it.

 

Re: “Nothing will happen if you don’t choose it to.”

Depends on the depth and importance of the morality. So-called 'minor' morals, perhaps I can, (Is it worth abandoning the 'moral high ground' and to tell a lie in order to protect some one from hurt? - Maybe.) Other morals are 'set in concrete' for me, and I wouldn't cross, not even if my life literally depended on it. Some may see survival as the ultimate morality, but I don't see it that way.

We must seek to actualize, or put into action our moral framework. Otherwise we can't believe it, and morality just becomes a convenience and a hypocrisy.

Legal issues, are a matter of law, and may or may not represent moral values, or justice. A Lawyer once told me that "We're not talking about justice, we're talking about the law."

That's my p.o.v. on it, anyway.

There is always at least two worlds that one lives in. The first is the world of our direct decisions, and the consequent actions, or chain of events.

The second world is that of the external universe (including other people). The amount of influence we have on the said 'external universe' varies from the profound to the negligible.

The two 'worlds', if you like, overlap to varying degrees. In the course of a lifetime, most people will influence and effect millions of others, and presumably, their world as well. This is true, even of supposed 'nobodies'.

As for wisdom - what is it?... If we know the true answer to that, then we may be able to seek it.

Well, since I'm self-employed, I would have to fire myself, which in itself has interesting possibilities. But since I haven't yet found anyone to pay me for doing nothing, I guess it's not going to happen any time soon.

Nope. Not in my world. I would do a lot of things, given enough money, but there are many more I wouldn't do for any price (in any sense of the term). One thing life did teach me, is that money may indeed buy me some indirect happiness, but what I would term, the true riches of life, are priceless.

Okay rant(ish) post is over, LoL.

 

For anyone to say they were only doing their job is a ridiculous statement. If a person's job means so much they would cross boundaries of morality and decency they are not the person for the job.

Everything is for sale - Think of the people who kill for mere money, children, spouses, anyone for that matter, horrible.

 

You guys here at MG are really wonderful...everyone has provided some great in depth responses...don't want to interrupt your thoughts and debates which contain much worth on morals, cause and consequences and particularly when morals and law face each other. So I'll just reiterate those phrases here:

Some thought provoking phrases used in the movie which effected decisions that stuck with me:

“Moral issues aside…” Can one do this…ie not consider morals for one's actions?

“Nothing will happen if you don’t choose it to.” We have our own will, but do we exercise it wisely?

“Move your a*s or else you’re fired.” Without having regard to Employment Laws, how effective is this threat?

“Everything is for sale.” Is it?

Any comments? Not about the film, but rather the power behind those phrases.

 

Speaking from being a long term observer.

 

Surprised you should draw your quotes from such a weak and shallow film to be honest. The phrases are not powerful. They are cliches.

 

That wasn't very nice.

 

I had stated: "Any comments? Not about the film, but rather the power behind those phrases."

One needs to think about these commonly used phrases (not regarding them as you coined "cliches"), and not in connection with the film. Call them "cliches" if you wish, that isn't the point being debated here.

Read some of the posts and then tell me how "The phrases are not powerful".

I saw them as thought provoking, refer to cause and consequence, pull in morals and law. That's how they have some power behind them. Think about it...takes some analysis which posters on this thread have obviously displayed.

 

In actuality, that is nothing more than haggling over the price. I guess, to give it a reference point, I did not and do not view that statement as being only about money. While money can, and likely always will be, a powerful motivator, I feel that the 'price' can be just about anything.

To point out:

You have named your price, as I named mine.

No, it isn't about money at that point, but then again, what is money really?? It is merely an extension of the barter system created by and for people who did jobs that had no tangible returns. Instead of giving me a chicken and a loaf of bread to cut your hair, you give me $13.95 (plus tip hopefully) and I use that to barter with the guy/gal who has the chickens and the bread. Since Bartering really is the basis for all trade (what we call shopping now), you can utilize the basic concepts of the original barter methods to apply to this phrase (IMHO), thereby removing a monetary value and replacing it with a value related to trade in kind.

I hope this made my statement clearer. If not, I still luvs ya all

~C (what you didn't know is that the C here stands for Cheeky bastard sometimes )

 

I need him more, my hair is a mess AND I can't breath :cry :cry

 

www.daddycutshair.biz.ly



~C


*grin* high tech hairstylist. Pardon the banners, I am still too cheap to pay for the hosting yet... or too broke, one of the two

 

Sorry, perhaps I did not make myself clear.
It is only my opinion after all and whether you choose to accept it or not is, of course, your opinion. It's just that I can think of 20 (at a rough estimate) far more "thought provoking" films in the same genre. The idea of selling your wife was done by Thomas Hardy in "The Mayor of Casterbridge" shurely? I just think the ideas, as well as the film, weak and vacuous.

 

I respect other people's opinion regardless of whether or not I agree with them.

If viewing those phrases/cliches in respect of that film ("Indecent Proposal"), then they are taken in context within the boundaries of that film.

By my stating/requesting comments: "Not about the film, but rather the power behind those phrases." I freed opened a debate to focus on those phrases only and posters here took them in context that could be emotive, experienced or reflective of public opinion.

Posters here raised good points on how they viewed/would view causes and their effects, expressed opinions when morals and laws face each other.

That's why I intentionally was not specific in the phrases' applications, but rather what power were behind such phrases, because in my simple opinion, they are thought provoking as posters here have pointed out.

 

And while I point out that the "power behind those phrases" is weak, negligable and vacuous, you do not seem to accept that view. I made my comments purely on the basis of your quotes taken from the film. Please do not mistake me for someone who watches trash like "Indecent Proposal" on a regular basis. Most of my comments were focused on the quotes. Justify the quotes, then and tell me why they are "powerful" or "thought provoking" I have read the "other posters" comments. Personally I find the average episode of Star Trek TNG far more thought provoking or powerful. The points you somehow try to draw from the film are vacuous and ill-founded. There is no basic justification for any of the 4 points which you draw from the film. As an Engish teacher of 25 years experience, you get an F.

 

Like I said earlier...I respect other people's opinions regardless whether or not I agree with them.

As for qualifications, who gives a damn what any person's qualifications/standing is in this forum when it comes to expressing opinions in the lounge.

I'm not here to impress anyone as you obviously are by noting who/what you are...posts here are opinion based. We're not trying to score points in an English examination.

 

Ok folks...Everyone is entitled to their opinion but lets not get carried away by being insulting or the thread will be closed.

Thank you!

 

<Thank you Abbysue! Hopefully no one has been scared off/discouraged from contributing to this thread after that.>

To get back on track, any comments:

“Moral issues aside…” Can one do this…ie not consider morals for one's actions?

“Nothing will happen if you don’t choose it to.” We have our own will, but do we exercise it wisely?

“Move your a*s or else you’re fired.” Without having regard to Employment Laws, how effective is this threat?

“Everything is for sale.” Is it?

Any comments? Not about the film, but rather the power behind those phrases

 

Although I’ve never seen this movie and the concept of it is tremendously disgusting, the questions are thought provoking.

Yes and no, If you do something wrong the first time your conscience pricks you and your know its wrong. If you ignore that and do it more and more, you kill your conscience a little more each time until you don’t even feel it anymore. As your conscience dies your morals change.

I think we all do what we think will benefit us at that time. Not many people look to see how their actions will effect their future or the future of others. We may think it was the right decision at that time but we sometimes fail to see down the road.

If someone other then my boss said that… I probably ignore them, I orderly dislike manipulative people.

Depends on the meaning for everything. For me personally there are things you could never give me enough money to give up.

 

Your response to the "morals issue" I found interesting because it runs along the same line to what a criminal profiler once told me about a particular criminals.

 

I believe it to be true... personal experience (unfortunately)

 

<Sorry, don't know what happened there...didn't finish my responseLOL>

Questions were left open purposely.

From my point of view and with work, sadly I have seen "everything for sale", though I still shake my head wondering why. For example, everything from ignoring copyright items to one's own child.

From an entrepreneur's point of view, they are often optimistic, so there is no limit

 

Good point.

I remember this always raised heated debates in class with our lecturer acting as mediator. Lecturers would then objectively go into analysis on morals and law...

Sometimes, (depending on type of act committed), morals did come into it, eg "what the reasonable person would do",

And in other instances, sometimes there would be a reliance on precedents, eg references to previous successful/landmark High Court cases

Or forensics would come into play.

Or, one would have to consider the defendent's profile (background) e.g. battered wife who reached a point where she took an axe to her spouse; abused child that influenced future actions as an adult; brain abnormality that influenced cruel acts.

 

Good point.

I remember this always raised heated debates in class with our lecturer acting as mediator. Lecturers would then objectively go into analysis on morals and law...

Sometimes, (depending on type of act committed), morals did come into it, eg "what the reasonable person would do",

And in other instances, sometimes there would be a reliance on precedents, eg references to previous successful/landmark High Court cases

Or forensics would come into play.

Or, one would have to consider the defendent's profile (background) e.g. battered wife who reached a point where she took an axe to her spouse; abused child that influenced future actions as an adult; brain abnormality that influenced cruel acts.

Dyamond also raised a good point in her last post here that was in line with a criminal profiler's reasoning regarding repeated actions.

So bottom line, sometimes law does look and work in with morals...it depends on the act committed.

 

imo, that is a very true point, because sometimes it can be just be an action or word.

 

Phantom, you always have your own unique way of pinpointing things as you have imo done so here.

 

Re: “Nothing will happen if you don’t choose it to.”

Does that make me a Pin-Head?...

 

That is so true Chipper, and your statement: "I must be accountable for such actions" is something people often overlook too.

 

Now you're being coy...you know exactly what I mean

 

This has definitely been a great thread... very thought provoking.

To touch on a thought mentioned earlier by Chipper, I must be responsible fur such actions.... I have long held that this is the primary reason the american society in particular and the world in general are flowing doen the sh**ter at a high rate of speed. No one wants to take responsibility for thier actions.

Just my $.02


~C

 

True, true...'fraid it's always easier to point the finger or simply shirk responsibility.

 

Re: “Nothing will happen if you don’t choose it to.”

I dunno. If you've ever seen me before my first cup of coffee in the morning, tripping over little lumps in the carpet and knocking against door jams, you might even agree with that name! rolleyes ~ But yeah, I knew what you meant.

 

roflmao