Karma .. what a load of rubbish

Good call Anupu... Kinda what I was saying with my comments about people like Stalin earlier in the thread.

 

Now you can understand why he (Bishop David Walker DD) was such an influence on me to do that course years back.

'fraid nowadays only have time for legal courses to keep up to speed on what's going on.

I believe he still lectures on Christian Spirituality at one of our academic institutes (though I don't know how he manages it given his current incredible schedule and involved areas of responsibilities).

 

I was halfway joking. It was my way of disagreeing with you, and pointing out that I saw a tinge of jealousy in there. Money doesnt make people jerks, people make themselves jerks. Likewise, poor doesnt make good people, people make themselves good.

Take out the word karma, and we could easily apply what you said towards coming to a conclusion about wealthy vs. poor.

As for flipping out over a piracy thread...you haven't seen me flip out. LOL

 

There are exceptions and variations to every so-called 'rule', or trend. Quoting exceptions to the rule doesn't disprove a rule, anymore than quoting an example within the trend proves it.

I wouldn't include people like Stalin or Hitler as an example of a bad person being rewarded by a long shot. Committing suicide (in the case of Hitler), and dying decades before a natural death, aint exactly what I'd call the 'good life'. Or are you saying Hitler was a good guy, but just unlucky? rolleyes. From what I know about Stalin's Autobiography, he wasn't exactly a happy camper, either. Like most people, they are primarily Architects of their own future, (and many others) - not withstanding some random 'good and bad luck' type factors along the way.

Historical fact of every society in history, that the vast majority of the wealth, education and power will be held by a numerically small percentage of the population. We may have so-called equal rights in most western nations, but that hardly guarantees equal wealth or power. But at least we do have the opportunity, i.m.o. The only exception to this, can be societies that have a large slave (or semi-slave) populace to do the hard and mundane work for them. But that's hardly an egalitarian society, lol.

As for 'social skills', that's another matter. They are related to attitudes and stereotypes.

 

I wouldn't call them exceptions. I can give you example after example of people I know personally who were gooood people by any person's standards I'm aware of - who died YOUNG.

There was a guy killed by an avelanche the same day I was due to snowboard with him.
There was my cousin who died *suddenly* on his way to the kitchen to make breakfast for his two grandsons, one of whom he had taken into his home. (Grandons but still young - he had a young family)
Then there was the kid I went to school with killed by a motorcyclist... and then the effect it had on his parents... all good people too.

Then there's the manchester gangland bosses I once knew (and glad to no longer) who were getting really very old *and happy* living on the fortunes they'd extorted from others.
The list for both sides is so unbelievably vast that to call it an exception and try to write it off "not disporving a rule" is either ignorant or insulting.

That's historical fact for you.


Social equality and opportunity is another issue altogether and not at all related to Karma.

 

That was hardly pointing out anything, you were incredibly vague about what you meant. Yes yes, I know that, all I'm saying is that more often than not when a person has won tons of dollars they will go on large cruises and buy big houses rather than give it to charity, or their "friends" and "loved ones" will scam it off of them.

Of course I came to a conclusion, but what I didn't do was manipulate evidence that was presented to destroy my arguement (Of which there was none).

You attacked me for no reason at all, I call that flipping out.

 

Yep, I had a lot of good people and good friends in my army days die way before they should have. But none of that is Karma related, more the type of profession they were in. I don't have to look far in my own life to know that good deeds don't always get rewarded - sometimes the opposite. Won't stop me doing them, though.

That said, I still have many blessings and positives in life, and relationships, which I wouldn't have had if I was an 'It's all about me", person. Like I said before, not necessarily Karma as such - more like getting positive feedback from positives. That is a general rule, both of human nature and society.

Re: Examples:- For every example of one, one can rebuttal with counter-examples, ad nauseum. As I said, since it's a matter of personal experience, it doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

No one said the world is a just or fair place, but we just do the best we can with what we have. Not Karma, just good sense. I've seen and experienced far too many tragedies and injustices to think otherwise.

 

Do you honestly think comiting suicide is good enough comeupence for slaughtering millions AND ruining the lives of his own people (Both Stalin and Hitler did this). Of course but what I'm saying is that it's in the wrong hands. No, we don't. Only a very small percentage of people could ever get that far and as I've made clear so before I think they'd be jerks.

They're another example of people being treated unfairly, do you want more? How about racism in Africa? How about the fact that it was caused by France and the USA and is still being manipulated to produce a profit? How about the fact that that same kind of thing is being reproduced in Iraq and Afghanistan? How about the fact that nobody cares about this and it goes unnoticed by the Media?

 

Now that's interesting, so it's their job choices not Karma's fault that they didn't get good things in return?

 

No one is disputing the world is full of injustice, unfairness, hate, and is sometimes a bad and sad place. I know that first-hand. There are also many, many positives in the world. We're talking apples and oranges here. Karma is (very) basically a moralistic points reward system.

I'm more talking about doing good, just because you can, and being at least focused upon a higher power(s) that is based on love, giving and justice. What I've tried to say more than anything else, is that good works aren't 'Karma' as such, but more a reward in themselves on a multitude of levels. Some can be said for negative forces. Since that is in the realms of personal experience/opinion, I'll leave it there.

 

And nobody is disputing that there are good things in the world too.

It's nice that you have that Philosophy, but it's completely irrelevent.

You never mentioned a Higher Power, but it's also fairly irrelevent.

I don't see how a good deed can be a reward in and of itself, if I just saved someones life, well that's all it is, so what?

 

Anupu, think about that part of your own comment in response to Phantom's post.

"...A good deed can be a reward in and of itself..."

One may not always see or be aware of what instant or ongoing effect he/she has had or brings about by doing a good deed whether it effects oneself or others. As a simple analogy, the effect would be something like throwing a pebble into the water that causes ongoing ripples. It is an action that will cause an effect.

My 2cents worth...now I'll leave you gentlemen to your debating.

 

If you think I was attacking you, I'd step away from the keyboard, get some fresh air, and enjoy life.

Once again, you haven't seen me flip out, and if I attacked you, you and everyone else would know it. I'm within my full rights to disagree with you. Thats hardly an attack. From where I am sitting, it looks more like you are starting a fight with those who disagree with you.

Not my problem. I think I'll go sip some hot chocolate and watch a Christmas movie.

 

I am witnessing it, not as satisfying as I thought it would be, turned out sad actually, maybe there is more satisfaction in perhaps in forgive and forget :confused

 

Phantom - I think (and this was covered in much more detail earlier in the thread) that one needs to draw a very clear line between the positive aspects of being a "good" person, helping others and generally not being a git - and Karma.

The examples I gave aren't a simple matter of rebuttal and counter rebuttal - it really is a one way process; to illustrate... after posting my last response I had another thought. Look at the Costa del Sol in Spain - that place is wall to wall with British ex-pats, many (though I wouldn't be so bold as to say "most") of them are criminals (and I'm not talking petty crime here, I'm talking gangland stuff - extortion, drug dealing, bank robbery, murder and so on) living the life of riley in the Spanish sun. All these examples serve a really simple purpose, and that is to prove that any ideal of "what goes around, comes around" (the blunt summary of Karma-phala in "this life") is naïve at best.


If karma is a moralistic points reward system, then simply put, it does not work. All the examples given (and the many millions not given) of people who are "good" and receive nothing but bad in return (and vice verca) are evidence that the entire Karmic worldview is fundamentally flawed. Anything "true" or "positive" that one finds in it is quite apart from the teaching, and is entirely down to their own outlook on, and approach to life.

That is quite apart from arguing that things are different when you behave well towards others though. There can be no doubt about that.
However, while personal experience does indeed back up to idea that la haine attire la haine (hate breeds hate) - the observable facts show us that is not any kind of universal karmic law; there are simply too may exceptions to intelligently reconcile the facts with any genuine teaching of karma. This isn't a matter of opinion. Opinion applies where one is discussing a matter of taste - not a matter of fact - and "what goes around comes around" is a matter of fact versus fiction. Does it or doesn't it? "Sometimes" is the only answer one can give to the positive and maintain any credibility in their argument, however, the very fact it only happens "sometimes" is all the proof one should need that there is nothing more at work than a person interacting with people who are attracted to their personality and approach. If you're a complete sod, nice people are less likely to be attracted to and interact with you. Of course, nothing in that precludes a person who has done 'nothing but good' from having every bad thing imaginable happen in return.

The world isn't perfect and isn't fair (as you did acknowledge Phantom) but a world where Karma actually means anything - would be fair. That's the whole point.

Also true is that there are 'positive' things in the world too - many of them in fact. Despite what I've been saying in this thread, I'm no pessimist. Haha. I see good things on a daily basis - I'm writing this with a smile on my face - I've just taken a walk through the park near my house (huge thing - the park that is, not my house) - it's really cold - pale blue skies with the moon still up, and a load of dog walkers. A wonderful day with happy people doing their thing. I like that.

Karma's still (to quote the topic) "a load of rubbish" though.

 

So you agree with me then, it's an action that will cause an effect, and that's all it is.

 

Once again with the personal attacks, as if I don't enjoy life.

You're using your interpretation of the word, I've tried to indicate (Very clearly in my opinion) that mine isn't the same as yours. As I said "I call that flipping out", as in you might not call it flipping out but I do.

 

To quote TSOL, "You're a better man than I...".

 

you have more or less said what i feel about karma.

i have done one really bad thing in my life for which i have a huge amount of remorse and if my invalid status plus the amount of pain i have maybe it is karma.

i try to be a better person but it is not always returned "so be it" i will continue to live in that frame of mind.

 

Anupu I pulled out your one sentence of "...I don't see how a good deed can be a reward in and of itself, if I just saved someone's life, well that's all it is, so what?" . It was this full sentence I referred to when I commented to you: "think about that part of your own comment in response to Phantom's post."

Viewing your above comment in whole sounded as though an action would not have some effect.

Those parts I've underlined above I found off putting when reading.

So I then extracted the part that made sense to me (shown in bold above and reiterated here) "...a good deed can be a reward in and of itself..." which is what I focused my earlier response upon.