Illegals Cost Americans $338.3 Billion A Year

I also agree with most of what Fred_G has said. I get very tired of well meaning concerned folks converting this from a simple question of legality to a forum on immigration as a whole, or demanding that we all have to "consider their reasons" for sneaking into the country illegally.

No, we DON'T have to consider their reasons. Yes, we as a nation DO have the right to demand secure borders and to require those from other nations are here legally. Do I doubt that most of the illegal aliens are here in a desire to improve their lives? Not at all. I've no doubt the vast majority of them are and I respect that and wish them well. However, putting emotional aspects aside - I also require them to obey the law.

It angers me that so many people dare to question my humanity and care for my fellow man, simply because I take the stance that laws should be obeyed.

Obeying the law and consideration of one's circumstances are two different issues, no matter how hard some try to combine them. Period.

My first and last word in this thread.

 

I agree with Fred_G on that.

 

I think that something that has been lost in this debate is the simple fact, that all of us(other than the Native North Americans) are immigrants. The question of "Legality" is something that changes like the wind.......The fact that U.S. is a world power lies in it's immigrants that came by the boat load when there was no question of "Legality" as your founding fathers wanted it so. Now those immigrants sons and daughters are saying we have our rights which were giving freely to our descendants, so we will shut the door.....does sound too fair to me.

Learning a second or even a third language is a asset in most peoples books.

Visa V those of the Spanish Line, sorry to say folks they were here long before most of your immigrant descendants even set sail for North America. All of Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, California, Louisiana, Florida and many other Southern States where founded by Spanish descendants. Spanish and French where the dominant languages spoken in the "New World" long before all of your ancestor's arrived.

Tolerance and acceptance of others, leads to a better world, and sadly to say it is sorely missing in this day and age of "I've got what I want, the rest of you can sod off"rolleyes

If the "Founding Fathers" of the great Nation of the U.S. could only hear what their descendant's are saying now, I think you would here a collective shudder and groan.

 

Nope, noted on page 1. In which I replied, I don't think the native americans had to pay welfare, or healthcare for those immigrants. Indeed, I think that taxes weren't an issue at all for them.

What was then, was then. What is now, is now.

 

Jeez, and and I state yet again, I am all for lawfull immigration. If the founding fathers of my country called in and had to press 1 for espanol, and 2 for English, they would truely roll in their graves.


I ask for my countries laws to be enforced. Nothing more, nothing less.

That is all I ask, or expect. Though I do not expect it to happen in the near future.

E

 

And I said I was done . . .

All of what you said is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The fact that it wasn't illegal decades ago does not change the fact that it is illegal now . . . and the fact that the Spanish were here first does not have anything to do with the discussion at hand. You are trying to turn a simple question of legality into a discussion of immigration as a whole. Not a valid argument at all.

By the way, our Founding Fathers would not look askance at a nation demanding it's borders be sovereign and secure . . . think about it, won't you rolleyes

Oh yeah - we are all immigrants. Yep. So is pretty much everyone everywhere, at some point . . . migration has occurred across all mankind's history - so that point is irrelevant. How far back should we go? If you want to discuss immigration as it relates to Native Americans, we can start a whole new thread about how Spanish, French, and English helped to mold and shape events over several hundred years while this country was becoming a nation . . . but it is not relevant to the issue.

In fact . . . and I will say it one last time . . . the entire issue of immigration is irrelevant to the issue of legality. It is illegal to come into this country with out leave . . . as it is for every other country I know of . . . plain, and simple. The root causes for this migration of people over the border are a different issue.

 

Thats actually missing the point. If you had a store and someone stole from it "because they really needed it", would you accept and tolerate it simply because they seemed "disadvantaged"? I bet you wouldnt, you would want them prosecuted to the highest extent of the law.

Although the majority of illegals arent bad people doesnt make what they are doing ok.

I have a friend from Trinidad who came here on a student visa, since he just graduated from college, he is now trying to get his paperwork together so he can stay here indefinitely. If he doesnt, he already told me he has to go back to Trinidad and start the process all over again. Now he could just stay here and noone would probably notice but he knows its wrong and is trying to do it the right way.

 

Its very convenient for those that now have their rights to deny those that do not, and History has shown that those that change the nations laws to suit their own purpose eventually fail.

Dismiss the Native North Americans, and those that followed including the Brits whose language you now espouse as yours........

It still boils down to a simple fact that Immigrants made this nation, when they were allowed too!!!

Deny them that right all you wish......after all it is was your nation's birth right, and what made your nations mighty.

PS....I would like to know what the Immigrant Worker who is paying pay role tax's is "Stealing" from anyone. The only time that could happen is if a U.S. employer is not declaring the immigrant worker, then is it not the U.S. Citizen who is the culprit. Also most of your "Founding Fathers" spoke and understood both French & Spanish

Side Note: It would appear that most of the "Elite of Corporate America" just loves to desert the nation and its workers and go World-Wide in search of the impoverished in it's quest for the almighty dollar. See the falling U.S. Dollar, unemployment up, Stock Market down......Gee maybe its U.S. Giants like Wal-Mart, GM, Ford and others that are leaving the U.S., that are the problem....Couldn't be the Japanese, Korea's, or the Chinese their investing in the U.S.

Bottom Line: Don't blame the "alleged illegal immigrant" or others for the economic malaise of the U.S., instead blame those "Corporate Elite's" that have for the last two decades been abandoning their own nation & it's workers for their own bottom line. Just think who is funding the 10 trillion dollar national debt............beep sorry, wrong it ain't Americans their all over extended, yeppers its them dang garn foreigner's again.....Think maybe we should tell them their money's no good too!!!! Hey there is only one inhabital planet called Earth, let's try to understand each other and make this place a better place to live!!!

 

Once again, I must ask, lets compare our immigration and deportation laws vs. other countries.

I don't understand all this living in the past garbage. Something that happened centuries ago must still be held to a standard now?

Should the Germans still be punished for WWII?

OF COURSE NOT!

 

Stay on topic please. That is completely irrelevant.

and that employer should be punished. They are, when caught. However, there is no amnesty for ignorance of the law (the immigrant is held to it as well).

 

I get very tired of smart, competent people polarizing the issues they face, so it appears to be black and white, right and wrong. Life is NOT that simple. Your law covers maybe a handful of life's possible scenarios. Perhaps its time for review, updating. You know, PROGRESS?

I disagree. Nobody has expressed any opposition to LEGAL immigration, so why do they insist on sneaking in?

They must've missed the immigration office next to the 7/11 on the way up.

How can you expect to solve the problem without analyzing the causes?

Is there any surprise there, though?

There is a DIRECT relationship between the number of laws passed, and the number of criminals there are.

If you are so humane, why are you so busy defending a law that supports denying these people what is probably their best chance at an improved life?

Why are you not out to CHANGE the law? To help those who you think may be in need? (You do seem to think that)

It seems to me that the favoured solution here is to round them up like vermin, and toss them back from whence they came. (Which I think is most people's objection, rather than your right to a secure border)

Nobody seems willing to adopt the view that there ARE no problems, only opportunities. (or even discuss the possibility )

How could the US benefit by improving accessibility, and getting these people legal?

There's evidence here showing that the average undocumented worker will pay more in sales taxes alone than they will consume in tax-funded services, so imagine if they were playing by the book, paying all their taxes? How much could these millions of "criminals" CONTRIBUTE to the US society?

Not to mention improved foreign relations.

Mexico's biggest export is oil. They apparently have enough to displace the US' mideastern supply.

Were it not controlled by a state monopoly (which is seemingly ineffective - they are responsible for the largest spill in history, have huge debts, and are alleged to be corrupt), perhaps it could be better utilized by foreign entrepreneurs.

 

Actually, I'm all for the deportation of Canadian illegal immigrants.

We would like our mental patients back, please. They need treatment.

 

Its not? Im sorry, right or wrong are the only two options, there are no others. What else per chance, is there? maybe right? hopefully right? its right to you but not to me?

Because, I wont say many but alot, have no desire to become legal. Lets say you stayed out past your curfew, you sneak back into the house - don't you?? and why would that be??

All this coming from someone who doesnt even live here (seriously, I mean no offense by that)

Im thinking, they dont want to be come "citizens".

http://immigrationcounters.com/

 

Anyone can post numbers and figures, not to say they're correct. Get a politician to join in on the war and you stir all sorts of unlikely stories up. The very first web site listed on this thread was stared in 1979.
There has been such outrage as of late as though this is something new. Protest about Mexicans taking jobs away from Americans has forced some American Growers to actually move their companies into Mexico to keep cost down or else we would be paying $5.00 for a tomato.
These people work below minimum wage, no benefits, get sprayed in the fields with poisons, in weather conditions unimaginable, and most send what they make home to feed their families in Mexico.

Welfare drain! how about the gangs?? They certainly will not be taking jobs from anyone, they take what they want. Your money, car jacking and making their money on drugs, go into their neighborhood by mistake and get shot. Those people live one generation after another on welfare. The state pays the families when the gang members are in prison, plus paying for them to be kept there.

Those are what should make us all angry, those are the drain on society, they contribute NOTHING, wage war on them if anyone has the nerve.

 

See, here we go again. Evryone thinks that the average illegal alien is a saint, working jobs we would not.

Sometimes, that is true.

Sometimes.

Of course, I could give you many a example of those who DO NOT, falsify papers, and everything else to bypass the law. How about my little cousin's father, who was deported? I guarantee you he wasn't subjected to the horrors mentioned in the previous post.

How about the amount of illegal aliens that are FUELING gangs?

--Anyone have statistics on that?

 

I think that speaks for its self, as does this.
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_gangs.html

 

It is sad to see such intolerance. Many of these people in 'gangs' did not have a good home life. Many of them are uneducated, came from broken homes, and are only doing illegal things because it is the only way they know how to get food, housing, and 20"s on their 'Benz...

The above is sarcasm. I think ALL the laws should be enforced. Good intentions do not change the fact that they are here illegally. Should we free criminals who have a good work ethic because they just broke one law...

What other laws should we not enforce? How about speeding. I bet everyone of driving age has gotten a speeding ticket or has a friend that has. I mean, we have to buy the car, why should 'the man' tell me how fast I can drive?

America is not perfect. We have a LOT of work to do. I think the best way to start is to enforce the laws we have. Granting rights to people just because they snuck in here, just makes no sense to me. Perhaps we should make it easier for people to become citizens. But I do not think we should reward people who's first act in the country was illegal... And they know what they are doing is illegal.

E

 

Nope, it's not. We don't live in some cartoon where everything is either good or evil. The reality is there are a million shade of grey.

Sure, you have a law now, but laws change; you "humane citizens" HAVE that power!

Not to mention that any law you do come up with is NOT perfect, and any sensible government will implement a process of continuous improvement on their rules. Stasis is the first step towards stagnation.

I don't think we can say that with any real certainty. Just like I don't think we can say with any certainty that they are hard workers, or eagerly take unskilled jobs. Those are just generalizations, and positive or negative, they don't help.

There certainly will be a few who want to cheat the system, but THOSE should be the focus!

Nope. I'm not the type to be sneaky about what I disagree with. I would come in at 3 AM and start rattling pots and pans.

Mind you, my parents would eventually give up trying to stop me, and just make it work for them. (ie, you come home late, you don't get the car until these chores are done)

None taken, I was about to post it myself!

I do however, live in close proximity to the most multicultural city in the world. (supposedly)

I do live in a country where there are TWO official languages.

"Pour continuer en francais, depressez le deux"
"MON DIEU!!!!! C'est une insulte à mon pays!!"

I do live in a country where our services are paid for almost entirely by our taxes, as opposed to a large portion from private companies which the US has in abundance, so illegal immigrants have a more immediate effect.

I do live in a country where border security is nowhere near as tight as your own. (seriously, I think their main concern is what you bought at duty free).

Despite all that, it works pretty darn well.

The point is that restrictionism has proven itself ineffective time and time again. It will continue to until you can monitor everyone subject to the restriction ALL the time.

Prohibition failed. Now, there is an alcohol industry that is government regulated, and taxed.

The war on drugs is failing, by all measures I've seen. I'm certain this will go the way of prohibition. (Government will regulate to marginalize the health impact, and turn it into a stream of revenue)

Stopping illegal immigration will fail as well.

Why not try to make it an asset, rather than insisting that it's a liability?

If they can be rehabilitated, and compensate for the damage they've done, why not?

Should you be denied life opportunities because of it?

 

Well we will just have to agree to disagree there. To me there is just whats right (not even by my own morals but by the governments standard) and whats wrong. I agree that the laws can change but there are so many people who purposely bypass the laws.

Heck, Im movin to Canada

This isnt even in the same boat as what we are talking about and I've spent way too much time on this thing

So, this will be my last posting on this matter. The whole point that Im trying to make and that I will reiterate is...

 

I could be wrong but they look different to me

 

Propaganda in the media. its easy to tell a story with pictures. Don't tell it to me though.

You cannot deny that gangs have a measurable amount of illegal aliens.

Of course, I never correlated the two. Gangs don't equal illegal aliens, and visa versa.

HOWEVER

I've known illegals who were in gangs, being where I spent my high school years.

So, the subjects are not entirely unrelated.

 

I think a lot of our disagreement stems from our separate definitions of what a criminal is.

I'll agree that criminals should be punished, or even preferably, isolated so they can't cause further harm. DEFINITELY!

However, MY definition of a criminal is someone with all the intention, and determination to cause harm to society. (or probably more accurately, benefit themselves at the expense of those around them)

From what I can tell, other people's definition of a criminal is anyone who's disobeyed a law at some point.

Well, that pretty much incriminates us all!

I've broken the law in the past, but I want to do good things in the future. I'd find it pretty tragic if my mistakes were a severe detriment to my goals.

 

My biggest issue with illegal aliens is that they dodge taxes.

Some intentionally!

I do have a real problem with that.

Criminal activities as such...I stay out of crime heavy areas when I can. I have not been around any real criminal element for a good 12 years. So the gang issue is not my premise for having issues with illegal aliens.

 

MS13 anyone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_Salvatrucha
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/MS-13_gang_threatens_the_Arizona_"minutemen"

Just thought i would drop a line on them farming like has been said in here is wrong I live in a farming state sure there might be illegals being paid under the table (Paid very well too better then most) but I have never seen anyone forced to work like that in any farm around here only real hard work done on farms anymore is loading50+ 50lbs bags at a time in to a Tractors hopper or fixing a tractor Now tell me whats hard about driving a 100,000$ GPS controlled tractor with air ride seats ac/heat and more stuff then most cars have? They want it done as fast as they can because farmers have to have stuff planted by a deadline the Gov sets. Why would anyone pay someone to do something by hand taking afew days and making them miss a deadline when the same field and many more can be done is a single day with a tractor?

Edit sorry I forgot only real hand work left is watermelon picking and thats because no tractor can pick them yet. and now i am talking about round here.

 

:banghead . . . and I get tired of smart, competent people depolarizing the simple issue that I addressed - and that was the legality of entering this (or any other) country with out permission . . . I said the entire issue of immigration, and the cause for the 14+ million illegal immigrants currently in this country is a separate issue from the question:

"Is it illegal to enter this country without first obtaining permission from the appropriate agency"

Yes, yes it is. And yes, that is as black and white as it can be. It's not a question of "life's possible scenarios." The penalty or fine for such a transgression will differ from country to country; there may be mitigating "scenarios" on a case by case basis . . . but the simple point of legality is beyond question - it either is or it isn't legal . . .

I stated I can understand why they want to come here, and I can relate to the desire to improve ones' lot in life. Which has nothing to do with the question of legality.

Since it seems to be an issue for those that see the world as they want it to be and not as it actually is - here is my condensed theory about the illegal immigration problem . . . The reason so many souls flood across the border from Mexico? - Mexico sucks for the average citizen. It's government is by and large corrupt, it's economy is in shambles and has been for decades. The reason they don't do anything to stem the tide is because the money that flows back across the border to Mexico helps prop up their society from total collapse. I don't know why Mexico is broken . . . Though I have no doubt somebody will find a way to blame it on the US . . . rolleyes. I just don't think it's up to the citizens of this (or any other) country to make up for Mexico's shortfalls.


I dunno Mada - are you advocating all countries just drop immigration laws? You are saying you want Canada to have a totally open border? I can't believe you think it is that simple. What is the estimate of how many illegal (or if you prefer) undocumented aliens are in Canada? What if the US vanished as a coherent country, and 15 or more million Americans started to cross the border into Canada, with more coming every month - would you then be so altruistic? Would every Canadian?

 

Well Mada, I think I see why we have such a difference of opinion. To me, a criminal is a person who breaks the law. If I speed once, and get away with it, I got away with it. If I get caught, I pay a fine. Either way, if I was speeding I broke a law. I rarely speed. VERY rarely.

An illegal alien breaks the law when they enter, and every day they stay here illegally.

So in my opinion, every thing they do is illegal. Like driving a car without a liscense, it is illegal. If you it every day, are you not defying society, and thus the laws WE live by? If it is illegal for you to be here, how is anything you do here 'good' and such?

Well, most likely my last post here. It is nice to see that we can argue/discuss a very controversial topic without the thread getting closed. While I disagree with many opinions on this, I respect all here, and feel it has been reciprocated.

MajorGeeks has some good people. Some of them misguided and wrong, but good anyway!

E

 

I lived in Monterey County, the Salinas Valley, (lettuce capitol of the world) and today you can drive past fields and see workers bent over cutting and picking vegetables. The workers travel from Salinas to Oxnard on to Imperial Valley. The tractors are mainly used when planting. I have had crop dusters fly over my car down a back road and let whatever they were spraying go while there were workers in the feilds.

 

Here in Europe we have the same problem as the USA with hundreds of immigrants per day entering from the ex-communist countries they are known as financial immigrants because they work in the black sector where it is cash in hand and they can earn more than in their own lands.

the other abuse is the welfare they tend to go to countries that give hand outs to the homeless, the favorite country is England where it is easy to get welfare.

our problem in Belgium is that as a French speaking nation we attract a lot of Moroccans and east Africans who over the years have found ways to get permits an identity cards they then marry into the system and bring relatives to live here who also marry Belgian nationals thereby circumventing the immigration laws.

It is a great financial strain on our economy and it boosts our taxes in order to support them, so the US is not alone with this problem it is all the developed nations.

in a recent survey of the top names for children here the top name for boys was Mohamed and for girls Salime so that gives you an idea the size of our problem.

we even have a political party formed to repatriate them it is called VLAMS BELANG.

 

I forgot to comment on this . . . this is probably true. However, I never tried to define what a "criminal" is. My posts concerned the point that it is illegal to enter this country without a visa or other duly authorized pass.

I actually agree with that for the most part. I also agree that the vast majority of illegal aliens in this country do not fall into that definition. There are no doubt many that do.

I don't agree. That's a generality which I don't feel accurately reflects the overall tone of this discussion.

Let he without sin . . . I don't think anyone is holding themselves pure, either. It's just not part of the discussion. It's not a valid argument to condone wrong behavior by a person by pointing out worse behavior by someone else.

Good, lively discussion!

 

What really amazes me is that this compassionate group who at the drop of a hat would come to the aid of someone less fortunate than themselves, can so passionately send impoverished immigrants packing without blinking. These immigrants are running away from poverty and starvation and are trying to grab a piece of the American dream, so their families can experience what all of us take for granted. As one who has been to these countries and seen first hand the squalor and lack of opportunity most of these immigrants have, I can truly understand why they are willing to do "Anything" to better their lot.

Those that say the law is the law, let me ask what would you do if you where in their shoes???!!! Would you just sit idle by and let your family starve, or limit them to a lifetime of poverty. Your a resourceful lot and I do not think you would.

Its easy to say they should just apply legally, but in most cases they do not have the resources to do so. So what is their option???

 

I'd do my damndest to become a citizen or at least a legal immigrant.

If there was a way they could be taxed like the rest of us, I wouldn't personally care if they didnt become citizens.

 

Remember their intent on trying to better themselves, just like you and I do, their not coming here to make our lives miserable

 

Payroll tax, eh?

Might wanna check that

Unless they went through the cost and trouble of getting false papers, which makes it clear they are evading our laws, on purpose, they do not pay taxes. How do I know this? Employers are not legally allowed to hire them. Hence, it all goes 'under the table.'

 

Granted. Its only fair then that they be subject to the same laws as you and me, then.

Seriously, I cannot believe its being argued in this thread that its perfectly ok to say fluck off to United States laws. Its not OK for citizens to do it, but because someone is an illegal immigrant, well then, its OK?!?!

Come on! rolleyes

 

I have read this thread and held my tongue, but I do feel I have something to contribute to this.
I work with about 4 or 5 women who are not citizens and do NOT pay taxes. How do I know this? They show me their checks. The claim 5 or 6, so no taxes are taken out. Yes, they pay FICA.
They are called one name at work, but at school where their children are, they are known as another name. They get Welfare under this other name, so are getting Food Stamps and Medical Assistance, while working, making money and paying not much in.
I don't think it is right. And, it is illegal.

There are two other women working with us, who are in US with Visas and doing what they have to to become citizens. Even they are disgusted with the ones that aren't.

 

Thanks for sharing gal.

The irony of this is all, my wife is a Korean immigrant. She even still has her old green card. She fully supports my views. Nay, she is even stricter than me!

 

I will also add, as I see this first hand, their "men' come every Friday to pick up their checks. These men are NOT working, except for drug dealing. Yes, I know this, too, as there have been some raids on their homes and the men arrested. These women ride with others, come home to the police being there, the kids scared, and the men in handcuffs.
What happens is they move to another part of town, the men are supposedly deported, but guess what? In a few weeks, they are back with different names.

 

There are always creative ways around things. It is not uncommon for a person to work under someone else's SS#. For example, Fred lends Tom his SS# to work. When the tax bill comes in, Tom gives Fred the amount of tax due to send the IRS or to reimburse him.

And please, let's drop the naivete. There ARE employer who hire illegals. There are companies how DEPEND on them. Do they get caught? Sometimes they do. Oftentimes they don't.

There are always those that abuse any system. I can tell you worse stories than those, practices that really get my gander up!

However, those are a minority.

I don't think that anyone is saying that its ok.

It is interesting however, how we fall into relativism when we are the ones indignant. Yet, when we are the offender, it takes on a tone of justification. How many of us claim on our 1040, for example, the income derived from a garage sale? How many of us will go back and tell a store clerk that they did not charge us for a particular item or gave us more change than was due us? That is dishonest all the same, a violation too of this countries laws.

Does one wrong right another? Of course not. However, when you look at illegal immigration, it is only illegal because the law today says that it is, not based on any moral dilemna like murder or theft would be. It is not inherently wrong to move to a place without advising authorities, unless of course, there is a rule that says you have to. So we are not dealing with villains of the worst type. We are dealing with a legality that in and of itself does not hurt anyone.

Where we fall into "issues" is where abuse occurs, like the situation that Gal mentioned or others that have not been told. As such, I like the proposition of Giuliani for dealing with immigrants. It goes something like this.

- current law abiding illegals - give them the opportunity to come forward and claim their residency. There will be a $5000 fine imposed as retribution for having entered illegally, but they will be accounted for, entered into the system, pay their taxes in the traditional manner, and enjoy the benefits to which they are not privy now.

- current criminally minded illegals - deport

- borders - leave room for legal immigration. Close the borders otherwise. (Although I just read what Mada_Milty wrote, and it makes me go "hmmmm?" Did I just date myself? )

That's my version. I'm sure it is not a perfect description, but you get the gist.

A few important points that need to made:

- no one is advocating anarchy and ignoring laws, at least not that I have seen in this thread

- because a few abuse does not mean that most abuse

- they do not live off us (please see my previous posts with the links to studies done at Duke University)

- most are contributing members of society though they are not "on the books". Let's put them "on the books" for further mutual benefit

- the majority do wish to become citizens, but this is almost impossible unless you are a political refugee (usually from Cuba, Russia, Indochina) or marry an American citizen and live here for years (5 I believe).

- the majority do want to learn English, if they don't know if already as was previously stated, but it takes time, especially if you are illiterate in your own country or come as an adult

Thanks for everyone that has contributed to this thread. It is only in exchanging ideas respectfully that greater understanding can emerge. Afterall, none of us has the entire picture. We each have small parts of a larger picture.

 

I'm all angry now and it isn't my country

 

I said I wasnt going to respond anymore but I just have toLOL

Thats exactly it, people circumventing the legal system!

I dont cheat on my taxes and if by chance I dont get charged for something or if I receive too much change back I DO let them know and I know ALOT of people who do the same.

I am really sick and tired of people saying "oh they arent hurting anyone" or "they are really disadvantaged" or “they aren’t bad people” its really doesn’t matter, its totally besides the point, what they are doing is wrong ESPECIALLY if like in the first statement they are purposely circumventing the laws.

Do you think someone standing before a judge who has just killed someone will get a lesser sentence because "he was a really good person?" Nope, not for a second.

There are plenty of americans that are disadvantaged, that do whatever just to make ends meet, have no insurance of any kind and have lived in some of the vilest situations (houses that falling apart with no plumbing, heating etc). I would know, its how I grew up. So its not just immigrants that are trying to make their life better everyone is, except most people do it legally.

So now, I am offically finishedLOL

 

I think if I knew someone who was so blatantly dishonest and bragging about it I would call the INS myself.

 

We live in a very remote area of Minnesota. Small towns with just local sheriff's office, etc.
They have been told and do know about what is going on. They stop people every day and know they are not legal. The courts seem to just fine them and let them go if they have any sort of papers.
The INS has been called, but they are busy with bigger companies that have many illegals and yes, they do deport those. But, as I said, they come back with different names and papers.
I honestly think the company I work for does know, but because their 'paperwork' doesn't get flagged, they don't do anything.
It is frustrating, very frustrating. I just see a small part of it, compared to the whole country.

 

Although I feel sorry for the people working so hard in the fields and plus being in the floral business for many years and seeing people scampering around when the gates with intercom systems open to go in and pick up plants and flowers, I personally have only known people on a personal level who were in the country legally. As far as the farm workers, they would follow the crops and at the end of the season go back to Mexico.
I can't stand hearing where some unscrupulous (Mexican Usually) will bring a van load of people into the US then abandon them in a remote place and leave them to die in the heat. I have not encountered anyone like the people you know, they are truly criminals.

 

That's great, dyamond, but consider what a wise man once wrote. (There is a reference to God, but I think most ppl don't have a problem with this.)

"Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. It takes one to know one. Judgmental criticism of others is a well-known way of escaping detection in your own crimes and misdemeanors. But God isn't so easily diverted. He sees right through all such smoke screens and holds you to what you've done. You didn't think, did you, that just by pointing your finger at others you would distract God from seeing all your misdoings and from coming down on you hard? Or did you think that because he's such a nice God, he'd let you off the hook? Better think this one through from the beginning. God is kind, but he's not soft. In kindness he takes us firmly by the hand and leads us into a radical life-change."

My point? All of us do wrong. While this is hardly an excuse to not seek justice, we should do so with humility and compassion.

Again, there is a huge distinction between criminal offenses and civil offenses, or shall we bulk a parking ticket to insider trading running a red light to grand theft?

And most immigrants are trying to make their life better by becoming legal, and then moving forward. Again, let's keep in mind that the term "illegal immigrant" is a relative term - relative to the times. Those of us who have been here since Mount Plymouth were illegal immigrants to the Natives. Many others of our ancestors either escaped illegally from our country or entered into this one without permission, seeking it once we arrived.

As I thought about this thread, I realized that there is another exception, and that is African Americans, whose ancestors were forced to enter this country without any desire to do so.