A few years later, time to build another system

Hey guys,

I've had my current rig for a few years (with some parts going back longer than that) and think it's time to start fresh. I've looked over threads here, other sites, and have been doing general research and was hoping for some feedback.

My "proposed system" list was based on this article, with a few tweaks. The $800 price they quoted is attractive; checking through NewEgg the parts below actually came out to just shy of $600 now. Either way, I don't want to go over the $800 mark as this is more of a "it's about time I upgraded," not a "oh my god I need a new computer now".

Usage
• Design/graphics (Photoshop, Illustrator, Indesign)
• Games (Although I don't play as much as I *used to*, I do try and find time for BF2142 and CoD4, and would like to be able to play newer games like Fallout. I play my current games at 1024x768 without AA/etc. and am used to that, so I'm not that concerned with fancy stuff like post effects, super-high resolutions, etc.– I just want to be able to play games smoothly and at a respectable framerate.)

Current system
Processor: AMD Athlon XP-A, 2100 MHz 3000+
Motherboard: MSI K7N2 Delta-L (nForce2 Ultra 400)
Memory: 3 GB DDR
Videocard: AGP GeForce 7800 GS (256 MB)
Soundcard: SB Live! value
Harddrives:
• C: drive - Seagate 7200 60 GB
• D: drive - Seagate 7200 240 GB
Optical Drive: HP DVD 840d
Monitor: ViewSonic P95f+ (running at 1152x864)
Case: Inwin Q500 full tower case
Operating System: XP Pro

Proposed system
Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 Conroe 3.0GHz
Motherboard: ASUS P5Q Pro LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel
Memory: Corsair XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR2 (PC2 6400) – although I'd like to stick with 3 GB or more...
Videocard: ~GeForce 9600 (type??)
Soundcard: same
Harddrives: same
Optical Drive: same
Monitor: ???
Case: Cooler Master Centurion RC-534
Operating System: same

I'm still undecided on the videocard. That one article suggested the EVGA 512-P3-N867-AR GeForce 9600GT, but a lot of reviews on NewEgg indicated there were lots of blackout problems with it, which I'd rather not have to deal with.

I also need a good monitor. I still use my trusty CRT at home but've been spoiled by my widescreen Apple cinema display at work, so I think I'm finally in the market for an LCD with plenty of desktop space to work within, but that will still play games at a decent framerate at an LCD's higher (than I'm used to) resolution.

Do any of those items jump out as a bad idea? Or anything that doesn't look compatible? I tried to supply as much info as I can think of, but by all means ask questions if I missed anything.

Thanks,
m19

 

No mention of power supply is the only problem I see, the new board and video card will need it, not just for more power but for the connectors as well. Most of the newer cards have 6pin power connectors that newer power supplys have for that purpose as well as the 24pin power to the board and several sata power connectors that you might use in the near future.

By the way, your current system is nearly identical to one of mine except for the monitor case and drives. I don't do much gaming with that one but it still serves me well. You might be supprised at what it can do if you format out the C drive and install only a few apps you need. Then do some tweaking to the system with some tutorial help to remove some of the wasted services and running processes. You could end up pleasantly suprised. Although not a speed demon mine does video processing and photoshop work at a reasonable rate with no tweaks at all. I know what you have listed would be much faster, but at a cost, and too me this system is free now, except for the electricity it consumes so I'm happy

 

I've tweaked the heck out of this one. Although I've fallen out of keeping up with hardware, I'm fairly anal about making sure my computers run at their peak as long as possible. The thing is, with this one I can run Photoshop 7 and Illustrator 10 just fine since I have no need to upgrade them at home. But once I do, I know it'll be choking on them and I'll be unhappy with performance compared to the older versions. Same with games: I don't play THAT much any more, but when I can't even run old-ish stuff like Neverwinter 2 without it stuttering, that's my sign it's time to think about new stuff. Does it run stuff "acceptably"? Sure, and it has for a while. But it's at the point where I'm seeing signs it's not able to handle more recent stuff and both the CPU and GPU are bottlenecking it. I can't really upgrade either without upgrading the board itself, which then leads to the new specs like PCIe (that I don't have), I figure it's a good time to wipe the board clean, so to speak.

m19

 

Proposed system
Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 3GHz 45nm, 6MB L2 and only like $150.
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3R $130.
Memory: 4GB OCZ DDR2-800 CL4 $80.
Videocard: 9800GTX $180 after MIR, or 9600GSO for $110
Soundcard: Onboard HD Audio
Harddrives: WD OEM 640GB $80
Optical Drive: 22X SATA Samsung OEM $25
Monitor: 22" Acer $180
Case: Cooler Master CM690
PSU: 750w Corsair with 60A on a single 12v $90 after MIR
Operating System: Vista Ultimate 32-bit

let me know. I can get you some cheap parts, I work for Microcenter.

 

Thanks Core. Let me look over that list and see how it compares– the prices look to be more or less in line with what I've been thinking already, but the motherboard is more expensive. Was there a reason you chose that particular one?

(Off the top of my head I can definitely remove Vista, the optical drive, and the harddrives from your list.)

m19

 

A couple of points. I'm not sure if Photoshop is quad aware but you can get a Q6600 for the same price as your duo, your P5Q-Pro mobo supports it. You don't need a sound card as the mobo has 7.1 Realtek audio support onboard unless you want to have super sound with an X-FI card or similar.

I agree with the above poster about the power supply, get a name brand PSU like Thermaltake, Antec etc. I really like the Antec Earthwatts series, I have a 500W and it works beautifully with my system, you may want to go higher for expandibility.

A 22" monitor would be really nice, I like the LG one here. All depends on how much you're willing to spend.

 

BTW, if you're going to go the Vista route, make sure your current software can run under Vista, you may have to pay for upgrade(s). Also make sure your current peripherals like scanner/printer etc. have Vista drivers available as many folk get caught and have to upgrade their printers etc. with Vista capable hardware.

 

Definitely no Vista...

For the other points:

I've used my SB Live! for years because it works and it works well. I don't ever use EAX so if onboard sound is as good or better, I'd be happy going that route.

I need to do some more research on Core2 vs. quad, but if they're the same price and the quad doesn't have drawbacks, I could go with that.

m19

 

I used to have an SB Live, and I have a good 5.1 Z5300 Logitech sound system and the onboard is way better IMO, at least for music( I'm always listening to music) as I don't game. I can say that because I tried the SB card in my older ASUS A8N-E box and the difference was noticeable but my card was from 2002. Try both and see what you like.

 

How would the Core 2 Duo 3.0 GHz and the Core 2 Quad 2.4 GHz compare? My inkling would be that I'd want the higher clock speed rather than more cores, if both are roughly the same price and the majority of apps don't take advatange of quad core. (I'm still trying to read up on both and the whole "multi-core" aspect is still new to me.)

I also have zero desire or intention of overclocking anything, if that makes a difference.

m19

 

well, the Q6600 as long as it's a SLACR one it would be fine. give me a full budget and PM me for details.

 

Okay, here's the final list, I think. These are based on my needs, price range, research, and "brand loyalty" (from past systems). I'm going to be picking parts up over the next few months from local outlets as well as Newegg. I've tried to double-check everything for compatibility, but does anything look out of the ordinary or might not work well together?

Processor:
* Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz - $169

Motherboard:
* ASUS P5Q Pro - $134

Memory:
* GeIL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400, CAS4) - $80

Videocard:
* ASUS EN9800GTX+ GeForce 9800 GTX+ 512MB - $189

Case:
* Cooler Master Centurion RC-534 - $49

Power Supply:
* Antec Earthwatts EA500 500W - $49

I'm keeping the same harddrives, optical drive, OS, and soundcard (or using onboard). Ignoring monitor for now as I'll be looking more into it later.

One other thing... I absolutely hate computer noise. I'm used to my system's fan noise now but it could be much quieter, especially compared to my wife's Dell system across the room. The case I've chosen appears to have side and rear fans; is it still good practice to have one in the bottom-front sucking air in as well? Can anyone recommend a type of fan that'd work well and be as quiet as humanly possible?

Thanks again,
m19

 

got an IM service?

 

Not that I use, no. I'd like to keep the conversation contained here in case other folks have feedback as well, though.

m19

 

Thinking about one more thing... I'm getting more familiar with the technology on these boards and realized the P5Q Pro has two PCIe2 x16 slots to hook up two videocards. I know for a fact I have no desire to do so, nor will I ever. I also don't use RAID or overclock.

Given those points, would it make more sense to go with a less expensive board that doesn't have the Crossfire abilities, like this? As far as I can tell both boards or more-or-less the same except P45 vs. P35, the Crossfire, PCIe 2.0 (which doesn't seem to be much of a performance increase with a single card) RAID, and the onboard sound. It looks like I can still use the E8400 with the P35 board, as well.

Among others, this page seems to agree that P35 would be a better route for me.

m19

 

Sure, there's nothing wrong with the P35 board for your needs and why spend $50 extra for something you don't need, put it towards the monitor. Your system is shaping up very nicely. Oh, you didn't mention if your current hard drives are Pata or Sata

 

Thanks. I know "tell me what I should buy!!!1lol" threads can be annoying, but I really appreciate the help you guys are providing– just trying to make heads and tails of the recent Geforce numbering conventions alone is making my head spin. =P I remember back when I got a GF3, hearing that they were going to streamline the numbering system with what would eventually become the 7x and 8x lines... I guess that plan went by the wayside, heh.

I'm at work and can't check, but I just realized I probably still have UltraATA harddrives, and it looks like the boards I've been eyeing are all SATA and don't even have the regular old IDE connectors. D'oh! Guess new hdd's are in order, as well.

m19

 

Ya, I was afraid that you had PATA drives. I just bought a Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200 RPM 16MB with my new rig and it's only $75. I am partial to WD drives but at least you get an idea, very quiet too. BTW, responding to your 'Tell me what to buy' post was a pleasure as you put all the info out up front and with a budget. We didn't have to pull any teeth.

Also, I just took a look at your case, you may need to add a fan or two, one infront and one for the duct, but you can check your heat after you build it.

Ya on the numbering, drove me nuts!

 

It actually looks like a local computer shop has a standard retail, non-OEM/open box C2D E8400 for $20 cheaper than Newegg; I'm going to put a reserve on it and get it sometime in the next couple days.

And so it begins! I forgot how exciting it is to actually start gathering all the hardware up.

m19

 

if you can make it to Fairfax, Microcenter sells stuff for cheap. I would know, I work at one.

 

Maybe that's where I went...

m19

 

Blegh! The Antec Earthwatts went from $49 to $89 overnight at NewEgg.

Are there any other reliable ~500W (quiet) PSUs around $50? Or is that unrealistic?

m19

 

Sorry for the triple post; I wish MG's edit button didn't go away after X amount of time...

In my searching for another PSU, I came across some mentions that 500W isn't enough for a card like the 9800GTX, and then some talk about rails and wattage and other stuff that I have no comprehension of. (I see that Core2 mentioned a 750W PSU up top; I overlooked that part at the time.)

Is there information somewhere that indicates how much power I'd need to run this thing? I'm reading reports of people's card not displaying anything even with a 500W supply, which is making me a little nervous now. I'd like to do the research myself instead of just making someone else do the footwork for me, but to be honest I'm not even sure what I should be looking for.

I'm eyeing this one now; with a rebate it's not that bad:

OCZ GameXStream OCZ700GXSSLI 700WRetail

I'm reading more and more that 500W appears to be the minimum PSU recommended; so I might be needing to spend more in that department after all.

m19

 

When they talk about rails, a power supply can have separate 12v supply lines besides the one you hook to the motherboard. You might have a 12 volt line with two 6pin molex power connectors one four pin floppy power and one sata power connector all on the same line, thats a 12volt line. If you have two of those and then also two separate 6pin graphics card connectors and the device is advertised as 4 rails, then you know the graphics rails are separate 12v supplies as well as the two combo lines. But if it said it was two rails then each of those 6pin graphics connectors are really tapped off one of the two combo rails inside the box and are sharing power with whatever you hook to that rail.

The more rails you have the better separation of power you get for supplying power hungry devices. Today with new graphics its especially important that the graphics power is on its own rail.

 

I was poking around more and believe I've settled on this one. One 12V rail, but somewhere around 50 amps on it.

m19

 

you know we have a website, right?


http://microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0273361

 

Yes, but that doesn't do me much good when Microcenter's products are higher-priced 99% of the time, including in this instance where it's $30-$40 more expensive at Microcenter than Newegg. I'm going to order from a retailer I trust and have used before, especially if the price is lower.

Not sure what you're getting at, though, unless you just think I'm an idiot and can't find a website. I've already seen all the info on that page elsewhere. I'm aware of Microcenter's website... But so what? I don't just need someone to tell me what to buy; that does me no good. The problem was that I'm getting conflicting information from here, other forums, and general online searches, and was trying to cut through the clutter and make a decision. In this case it was split evenly between "500W would be fine" and "No idiot, you need at least 750W!": both opposite replies and both absolutely sure they're right.

I haven't built a system in several years and am trying to both educate myelf again and make informed decisions, which is why my choices are bumping around a little right now.

m19

 

All I can say is that my 500W Antec is perfect for my 9800 GT but I don't game, 750W is overkill IMO though the PSU you linked to is an excellent choice and one can't ever go wrong with more power with a quality PSU.

Maybe just split the difference and get something in the 600W range along with the same certs like 80Plus and 12vEPS. There are too many folk depending on an underpowered PSU which could actually take out some components because of bad power regulation or just being inadequate. You're building a new rig so a quality PSU is needed to protect your investment, not trash it. Spending a few bucks extra is good insurance. Oh, you will get extremist POV's on what's needed, you just need to sift through the opinions and find the right fit, some hardware people are, erm, overzealous at times. You definately don't need an SLI capable PSU if you will never install a second video card, but if you have the money, then why not?

As to the constant spamming of the above poster, I believe it's against MG policy to badger someone. I won't report it but you may want to.

 

Me again.

So far I've purchased and/or ordered a few parts: the CPU, one of the harddrives, and the power supply. I'm revisiting the rest of my lineup to see if there's anywhere I can conceivably shave costs with little or no performance hits and am, at the moment, staring at my RAM choice.

As small amount of money as it may be, the $25 difference between this and this has me reseraching more. For gaming and graphics/design work, is the difference between CAS5 and CAS4 really all that big? Yes, I know $25 isn't a whole lot in the grand scheme of things but, like I said, I'd still like to investigate options.

Some people have stated that the performance difference between 4 and 5 is only 3%; others say they'd never "game" with anything higher than 4 or even 3. what do you guys think: realistically, will one or the other make any noticeable difference?

m19

 

keep with the cas5 if you have to. is there any other memory with cas4 by a different brand? OCZ has some stuff on sale...

 

Someone else had recommended OCZ, but the only way they'd be within my price range is with the rebates– and I've read plenty of horror stories about them not honoring those. I haven't actually ordered the RAM yet, but think this one from Corsair might be the winner. Great reviews, reputable manufacturer (I've used them before, too), speed and timings where I'd like them to be, free shipping, and a nice rebate.

Also thinking of switching the ASUS 9800GTX+ to this one by EVGA, although the reportedly huge size concerns me with a mid-tower case.

m19

 

It's the same size as my 9800GT, it is big but only takes two slots out the back, one for the connectors and one for the fan exhaust. I have a CoolerMaster690 mid-tower case and had absolutely no problems installing it.

 

I would stick to a 9800GTX+. if it's not the + it's actually a little worse then the 8800GTX...

 

Roger; I'm going with EVGA's 9800GTX+. Just working out a few of the last remaining parts and then I should be good to go.

m19

 

Now that I've got the major components out of the way, I'm thinking about other odds and ends– in this case, a DVD burner.

The P5K SE EPU (ASUS) board I'm getting says it has four SATA connections (or whatever you'd call them). Am I correct in assuming that means I'd be fine with two SATA harddrives and an SATA DVD burner? I'd originally considered just using my old IDE burner in the new system but it seems to be on its last legs anyway so I might as well make the jump there to SATA as well.

I'm reading more on SATA now, but in the meantime... Does SATA work the same way IDE1 and IDE2 did, where you have your harddrives on one and optical drives on the other? Or is it strictly one device per connection?

(I'm considering this drive. I've heard LGs are good, or Sony? I thought Plextor used to be the best but I didn't see any on New Egg.)

m19

 

One SATA device per connection. I have had mostly LG's and the've been good to me. The only complaint that I could make is when loading a new program, man they are loud spinning at full blast! However for playing a CD or DVD or burning, one can hardly hear them, if at all, at the lower speeds.

 

The internal D: data/storage drive I'm currently using now is regular old IDE, and I'm trying to figure out how I'll be getting the data off of it and onto the new SATA drive. Given that the new computer will have an extra SATA port available, would it be conceivable that I could get an IDE to SATA converter, hook the old drive up to the new computer, and copy files over to the new SATA drive that way? Would that post any conceivable problems? (There's no OS or system files on it; it's literally straight data storage.)

m19

 

There is an IDE connector at the bottom of the board so you don't need a converter card.

 

Okay, last big question... I've ordered (or at least finalized) everything but the motherboard and have hit a snag. I was going to go with ASUS' P5K SE/EPU but it looks like it's now out of stock.

In case it doesn't show up as back in stock soon, I'm researching alternative options within my price range and am looking at two from GIGABYTE: this one and this one. The first doesn't have any Newegg reviews and the second seems to be fairly well-received, but I've never had a GB board and am looking for more opinions. Has anyone used either board specifically, or have experience with GB in general?

My rough checklist...

• price
• option to upgrade to quad-core down the line, if needed
• enough PCIe and PCI slots
• enough SATA connections

It looks like, apart from the number of various slots, the biggest difference is the chipsets: P31 vs. P43. I"m leaning slightly more towards the second board because of the newer chipset and the room for more RAM (just in case...), but at the same time the first being $20 less expensive is attractive as well.

Again, thanks...
m19

 

stick with the EP43 if it has to be one of those. I highly recommend this board:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130181

 

And that, as they say, is that. I've got all the parts ordered and on the way, so a big thank you to everyone in this thread for your advice and patience. I know I had a lot of questions and back-and-forthing, but I really appreciate the help you all provided.

Here's the final line-up:

CPU: Intel® Core 2 Duo Processor E8400
Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R
Harddrives:
• C: Drive – Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST380815AS 80GB
• D: Drive – Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST3500320AS 500GB
Memory: CORSAIR XMS2 DHX 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400, CAS4)
Videocard: EVGA 512-P3-N879-AR GeForce 9800 GTX+ 512MB
Case: Cooler Master Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UW
Power Supply: CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W
Optical Drive: LG Black 22X

I'm going to be using my current monitor for the time being and'll pick up some extra fans once everything's here, but I'm looking forward to a good build this weekend.

m19

 

Great man! I would rethink using the 80GB drive as your primary drive as your 500GB is newer and has 32MB cache as opposed to 8MB and will be faster. I'd use the 80 as a backup/save drive.

Also, I would connect the front panel case connectors before screwing the board in, much easier to do outside the case when you can see what you're doing with those darn small connectors.

 

The case hasn't arrived yet so I can't check myself, but I know I'd like to replace the front 80mm with a Noctua 120mm fan– what are the chances a 120mm wouldn't fit up there? The only specs I can find indicate that the case comes with a front 80mm, not whether it can fit a larger one. Is there any way to tell apart from waiting til it gets here and trying to fit a larger fan in that space?

m19

 

I have allways used gigabyte and found them to be exelant, my latest is the GA-P35-DS3L Quad Core Extreme, Only problem I found is it does not run XP very well, I had to upgrade to Vista.
this one

 

The case is certainly wide enough but there's no way to know if the holes are drilled for a 120. It would be nice to have a larger fan running at slower speeds for the noise level. My CM case came with a 120 installed in the front, so they do drill the holes but that means nothing for you. Who knows?

 

I'll check after work tomorrow if the fan fits, we sell it and have it on display.

 

It ended up arriving last night so I was able to check– it's definitely too small in the bottom front for anything larger than 80mm, unless I rip out the harddrive mounting case.

However, it looks like there's plenty of room about six inches above it in the larger optical drive bay area. Since I'm only using one DVD drive way up at the top and that open area is towards the lower-end of the case's center, I think I'll just put an additional 120mm in there to reinforce the lower 80mm.

The last place I'm considering is removing that silly CPU funnel thing attached to the side panel and doing another intake there. So that'd be two 120mm intakes (mid-front and side), one 80mm intake (lower-front), one 120mm exhaust (back), and the PSU's fan.

m19

 

Ya, those ducts are quite useless unless you put a fan inbetween the duct and case.

 

My god, that stock C2D heatsink/fan is a pain to get on...! I kept getting two of those stupid black and white plastic pins secured but then the other side wouldn't sit flush and keep popping up. It took a good hour to get what I think is a secure fit. I'll probably replace the whole assembly with something better, eventually.

On the positive side, everything but the videocard is installed now. I did some quick power on tests and, except for not having a monitor to be able to check temp and config settings, it appears that everything's working the way it should– harddrives spin up, all the fans work, any lights come on that are supposed to, etc. I'm going to keep an eye on the temperature in the BIOS once I get the video and monitor hooked up, though, just to make sure the HSF is on properly.

I think I'll have this wrapped up on Saturday, at which point I'll hopefully be posting from it instead of my old computer.

m19