Documentaries On Real Jedi Masters (BBC, History, Discovery Channels)

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Do you want to learn to master chi energy?Look at this guy he uses his Chi to help people fix their eyes,this is him here wearing GLASSES.:-D

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b214/Rikky_/glasses.jpg



Here's one he fixed earlier.


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b214/Rikky_/patch.jpg



That meditating boy just died after about 3 months then beetles ate his insides which made him look like he was moving,then he collapsed in the middle of the night and they just swept him away.

 

Rikky, my friend, you should be on the stage......sweeping it. No, honestly, those two captions roflmao

 

Rikky,

I have no control over youtube ads, also I think your wrong about Ram Bahadur Bamjan being animated by beetles.


The first video you can skip to 6:00 and see them bring in a team of scientists to examine Chang.

The 4th and 5th videos down are of tummo(inner fire) meditation master wim hof, this was on discovery channel and he currently holds multiple world records for extreme cold endurance.

 

Work on your Chi a little more and you will young padawan

roflmao Come on they were feeding him at night then he died of a blood clot or something,deep vein thrombosis.

Not for long.even though he's been using his powers for years sticking acupuncture pins into people and drawing blood as soon as the scientists come his mysterious master says drawing blood is a cardinal sin in the way of the chi and they can't run tests anymore:-D

Yup cold endurance is real and you can train to be good at it.

You can't move things with your mind though or stop sharp spears going through your throat or break bricks that anyone else can't,they are all magic tricks or in scientific terms there's always a variable unaccounted for.

 

Rikky,

I don't believe in anything supernatural if that is what your getting at. Chang says what he does is no more supernatural than an electric eel. There is much left for science to uncover about our world, and universe. Keep an open mind, maybe the current scientific paradigm needs to be updated. Imagine how ignorant and primitive our science and views of the universe will look to people 1000 years from now.

 

I'm very open minded thanks but there's being open minded and theres being gullible.

Science is perfect,what is the current scientific paradigm and why may it need updating?Our science will only look primitive in its lack of knowledge,its execution is near perfect.

EDIT I think if anything people will look back at this time and laugh because people thought Chang had magical powers

 

What I am saying is maybe there is more to reality than we currently are aware of, via our current scientific knowledge.

Chang's school which is called mo pai, is very similar in the beginning levels tummo (inner fire) meditation. It has 72 levels of achievement, the 2nd video I posted is of one of Chang's top western students passing his level 3 test.

Supposedly there are around 100 people on earth close to or above Chang's level of development. I've met with individuals from many lineages which are similar to mo pai, and seen and experienced things that I never thought were possible.

I don't advocate having faith in anything, I come from an atheist background. However when you see and experiencing things directly that are blatantly incompatible with your current paradigm, you change your paradigm.

Just my $0.02

 

There definitely more to reality than what our current scientific knowledge shows but that's what's great about science its isn't set in stone,if there's a consistent erroneous result we don't hide it or dismiss it,we check all the variables until we find something that explains it.

If someone can move cardboard boxes in that clip using telekinesis and nothing natural can explain it,it remains as an unexplained fact,but ofcourse this has never happened,ever,whenever someone has been tested with all other variables removed they have been revealed as a conman,charlatan,there was another variable unaccounted for or they simply will not agree to be tested,EVERY SINGLE TIME .

So then being extremely sceptical is completely logical where things like this are concerned considering their track record,the only reason for being open minded when you see a trick performed by someone and accepting it at face value is because you really want it to be true,you have seen something you couldn't explain with your rational brain so now you believe there is something other than the current laws of physics.

Why?Why when you know your only human and can easily be tricked?Why when you don't have testing equipment and can isolate all the variables?Why when you know the track record of these type of things?Why when you know current scientific methods haven't found anything?Why when you know that its human nature to want to appear special and impress people with tricks?

Because you really want it to be true its obviously important for it to be true,but it just isn't.

BTW It may seem like I'm picking on you because your new to the forum but I always joke around and I always argue against any kind of claim to paranormal/supernatural or whatever you want to call it,I don't dislike you or anything,also feel free to post exactly how you feel don't let my time in the forum or post count be a factor

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

 

Rikky,

I agree with you man. Everything you said I completely agree with.

Humor me though in a little hypothetical scenario. Lets say you find someone who claims to be a master of an ancient Chinese Taoist energy art called "neigong", and you decide to try to debunk him as a fraud. You have this man stip completely naked step outside and he is still able to knock you down with some force from a distance, and power a light bulb with his hand. You then think its something in the environment so you take him somewhere randomly and repeat the experiment with the exact same results.
What if you bring in a team of scientists to try and figure out how is magic trick works, only to completely stump them as well...

Do you consider him a fraud, or do you decide your paradigm is wrong and change it?

That was a bit rhetorical because I believe a rational person would change their paradigm after a certain degree of physical proof.

All I can say is I've seen more than enough physical proof to justify my current belief system.

I could quote several studies by universities in china, japan, and some in the united states which explain qi or at least its effects in terms of electromagnetic phenomena. I don't think that would have nearly as much effect though as actually seeing for yourself.

 

If you went seeing a Penn and Teller show and you saw a trick you couldn't explain or work out is it really rational to change your belief in reality,to disagree with millions of peer reviewed studies that say this isn't possible and the experiences of practically every other intelligent human just so you can explain the trick and the world seems logical again?:confused

OR is it more rational to think " I know its a trick,this isn't possible I just don't how the trick is being done yet?"

I've worked out how Chang does all of his tricks,I'm not sure on the electricity one but the odds are its a trick aswell if the others are.

EDIT BTW you say you've seen physical proof,how did you come across that?

 

Rikky,

If you went to a house that was rumored to be haunted and you saw a ghost materialize and communicate with you and then dematerialize, and this be came a common occurrence at that location. Could you shift your world view enough to accommodate ghosts, or would you just play if off as hallucinations or trickery.

At what point does enough evidence become enough to substantiate a belief, even if it goes against the accepted paradigm?

What if you had a real out of body experience, and got to listen in on a personal conversation of a friend, only later to mention it to them, to find they had indeed had exactly such a conversation down to the smallest detail.

Sure it sounds like new age fantastical thinking, but what if it happened to you. Like actually happened. In my opinion if you classify yourself as a true freethinker you would be willing to accept real experiences like that as hard evidence for such even if it goes against the collective paradigm.

P.S. There are certain things I'm not allowed to discuss publicly you can send me an email at lordmaynoth at gmail dot com and maybe I can elaborate more on my personal experiences with my training in neigong and other systems of meditation.

 

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.

The challenge is flawed from the get go. Lets pretend Chang wanted the million dollars (he's rich from his business anyway) but lets say he did.

If he was able to generate bioelectricity like an eel enough to power a led, under laboratory conditions naked and x-rayed for devices. What happens if they find the mechanism for this action is really a small isolated group of nerve cells functioning similar to that of electric eels via the transfer potassium and sodium ions across membranes to create electrical potential. Well thats hardly meets the definition of paranormal or supernatural or even occult.

In reality there is no such thing as supernature, nothing can be greater than that which is natural. If ghosts exist, if consciousness can survive without a physical body, I would also assume them to be natural in their nature. The same goes for words like paranormal and occult. I think it would be better to simply say that if these things aren't trickery then we don't completely understand the phenomena.

 

[youtube]RAAB0dbc3Es[/youtube]

I thought that was a new ad from youtube's new ad system turns out it wasn't. Here is a old version that has no ads.

 

Now your dreaming up and extreme situations that couldn't happen because outer body experiences and ghosts don't exist,if they did exist and I experienced them them I wouldn't "believe" in the them I'd know they were fact just like everything else in life but they are not real so I don't,any such things that have happened are mostly down to the mystery of the human brain and its ability to trick us along with natural phenomenon,also the objectivity with which the person can interpret what they have seen.

Its like one of those silly questions like what would happen to a person if he travelled at the speed of light,well its physically impossible so the question is null and void.

How much evidence is enough?Multiple scientific tests that document the results by neutral scientists using various recording equipment,using experiments that can be consistantly repeated around the globe.

I've answered your question but you havn't answered my question only posed another question,you think the chi guys are good Penn fired a .38 bullet and Teller caught it in his teeth!

Don't you agree with this statment:confused


Also the tricks chang does,electricity,lighting paper,moving cardboard boxes "his student",pushing a chopstick through a table,could you name a way in which each could be done without using the supernatural,just a short explanation for each one or more than one if you know multiple ways it can be done without the supernatural?

Also the monks could you give examples of a variable that would make chopping bricks,sticks or resisting a spear to the throat possible using just the known laws of science.

Then his power can be explained by known laws of physics and science and it isn't supernatural so he doesn't get the money?What's wrong with that?I'm not sure electricity is paranormal anyway even if he does produce it himself,it would then just be a genetic abnormality.

That's all paranormal means,we don't completely understand the phenomenon as you said but there is definitely a phenomenon.

 

I can vouch for that, noth. Rikky is a very competent debater and will argue with anyone about anything. Mind you, you're giving Rikky a good row here.

Looks like you are going to fit in well at the Hot Button Topics, noth. Give it a visit.

I must say though, this is a really compelling argument from both sides.

EDIT. Oh, see you've already visited HBT. rolleyes *walks away sheepishly*

 

No I was using just a few examples I've encountered since I began my training in neigong.

A little arrogant to exert claims of absolute knowledge about anything you haven't seen. I used to be a weak atheist/agnostic remember. Making a claim like I know X does or doesn't exist puts the burden of proof upon you the person making such a claim.

It sounds to me like you are so adamant and certain that things of this nature do not exist that you purposefully would never allow yourself to be in a situation to ever observe them.

(e.g. I tell you I saw three horned deer in the forest, you make the claim no such deer exists, I show you pictures, you claim their fakes, I offer to take you to observe the deer directly, you refuse as it doesn't exist.)

That same question led a young man as a child daydreaming to arrive at the theory of relativity.

.

If your actually willing to listen to some studies, I'd be willing to present you some research, if you going to play pick and choose and say "this university stinks" or this study wasn't double blind, etc then no, I wont waste my time.

Also remember most of the studies done are on low level individuals no one near chang's level.

As part of the training students are shot in the stomach while Chang pumps yin chi into their bodies from the base of their spine.

Yes.
Chang says that chi flows easily through metal so whatever it is its electromagnetic in nature.


These are my personal theories, I already explained my theory on electricity generation. Studies have confirmed same effects in the lab in china, japan and the us that I am ware of. I don't know much about the internal biochemical processes in the body, but my explanation about the eels and sodium/potassium ion exchange still stands. supposedly the practitioner gathers large amounts of + and - electrostatic energy, they can project this electrostatic charge through a column of strongly ionized air which is created before the projection. This is almost identical to how a lightning strike works. Supposedly they can then charge an object or group of objects with a certain electrostatic polarity repelling or attracting them. Supposedly chang coats the chopstick with a strong field of yang chi or + electrostatic energy and it actually burns its way through the wood itself, much like using a welding rod to cut a hole through piece of metal.


Also about chang's abilities being genetic, that's quite right. It's a teachable skill just like tummo.

I'm really reaching the limits of what I can and can't talk about openly, if you want to discuss more please email me

 

at the bottom it says "that's quite right" I meant "that's not quite right".

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9051169?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

Emission of extremely strong magnetic fields from the head and whole body during oriental breathing exercises.
Hisamitsu T, Seto A, Nakazato S, Yamamoto T, Aung SK.

Department of Physiology, Showa University School of Medicine, Tokyo, Japan.

This article reports the result of an experiment that was designed to measure the biomagnetic field emanating from two individuals who were practising traditional Oriental Qi Gong breathing exercises. The biomagnetic field was measured with differential coils wound 80,000 turns, a magnetic needle compass and a digital electromagnetic wave detection device. It was found that an extremely strong magnetic field was emitted from the two individuals. One subject emitted a magnetic field at the level of 200-300 mT (2-3 mGauss) and the other at 0.13 mT (1.3 mGauss). In both cases, moreover, the magnetic needle compass rotated 30 degrees (this was tested 32 times). When the rotation of the needle occurred, a reproducible magnetic field of 800-1500 mT (8-15 mGauss) was indicated on the digital measuring device (this was tested 12 times). It is concluded that traditional Oriental Qi Gong breathing appears to stimulate an unusually large biomagn

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43006-2005Jan2.html

Meditation Gives Brain a Charge, Study Finds

By Marc Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, January 3, 2005; Page A05

Brain research is beginning to produce concrete evidence for something that Buddhist practitioners of meditation have maintained for centuries: Mental discipline and meditative practice can change the workings of the brain and allow people to achieve different levels of awareness.

Those transformed states have traditionally been understood in transcendent terms, as something outside the world of physical measurement and objective evaluation. But over the past few years, researchers at the University of Wisconsin working with Tibetan monks have been able to translate those mental experiences into the scientific language of high-frequency gamma waves and brain synchrony, or coordination. And they have pinpointed the left prefrontal cortex, an area just behind the left forehead, as the place where brain activity associated with meditation is especially intense.

"What we found is that the longtime practitioners showed brain activation on a scale we have never seen before," said Richard Davidson, a neuroscientist at the university's new $10 million W.M. Keck Laboratory for Functional Brain Imaging and Behavior.

 

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

Meditation changes temperatures:
Mind controls body in extreme experiments
By William J. Cromie
Gazette Staff

In a monastery in northern India, thinly clad Tibetan monks sat quietly in a room where the temperature was a chilly 40 degrees Fahrenheit. Using a yoga technique known as g Tum-mo, they entered a state of deep meditation. Other monks soaked 3-by-6-foot sheets in cold water (49 degrees) and placed them over the meditators' shoulders. For untrained people, such frigid wrappings would produce uncontrolled shivering.

If body temperatures continue to drop under these conditions, death can result. But it was not long before steam began rising from the sheets. As a result of body heat produced by the monks during meditation, the sheets dried in about an hour.

Attendants removed the sheets, then covered the meditators with a second chilled, wet wrapping. Each monk was required to dry three sheets over a period of several hours.

Why would anyone do this? Herbert Benson, who has been studying g Tum-mo for 20 years, answers that "Buddhists feel the reality we live in is not the ultimate one. There's another reality we can tap into that's unaffected by our emotions, by our everyday world. Buddhists believe this state of mind can be achieved by doing good for others and by meditation. The heat they generate during the process is just a by-product of g Tum-mo meditation."

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1353653?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

Detection of extraordinary large bio-magnetic field strength from human hand during external Qi emission.
Seto A, Kusaka C, Nakazato S, Huang WR, Sato T, Hisamitsu T, Takeshige C.

Department of Physiology, School of Medicine, Showa University, Tokyo, Japan.

It is generally accepted that more than 10(-6) gauss order magnetism was not detected in normal human condition. However, we detected 10(-3) gauss (mGauss) order bio-magnetic field strength from the palm in special persons who emitted External Qi ("Chi" or "Ki"). This detection was possible by special arranged magnetic field detection system, consisted of a pair of 2 identical coils with 80,000 turns and a high sensitivity amplifier. Each of the coils were rolled 80,000 turns accurately, and were connected in series in opposite direction, actuating as a gradiometer. We measure bio-magnetic field strength in 37 subjects with this detection system. The only 3 subjects of them exhibited strong bio-magnetic field of 2 to 4 mGauss in frequency range of 4 to 10 Hz. This magnetic field strength was greater than that of normal human bio-magnetism by 1,000 times at least. A simultaneous measurement of bio-magnetic field strength and its corresponding bio-electric current was examined in one subject. During exhibiting such strong bio-magnetism, its corresponding electric current was not detectable. Therefore, the extra-ordinary large bio-magnetic field strength can not derive from internal body current alone, hence the origin of the large bio-magnetism is still unknown. We suppose that the extraordinary large bio-magnetic field strength might be originated from "Qi" energy in the oriental medicine or in the oriental traditional philosophy.

 

Scientific Evidence of Qi
http://www.scribd.com/doc/192882/Tai-Chi-QigongEnergy-Scientific-Experimentation

http://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Qigong-Exploration-Zuyin-Lu/dp/0965713571/

In the Shanghai College of Traditional Chinese Medicine a qigong master called Lin Housheng skilled in emitting external qi from Laogong (a point on the palm where the tip of the middle finger touches when the fist is clenched) effectively treated quite a few complicated cases. However, nobody believed his therapy as well as the external qi emitted from his palm. The treatment was taken as sorcery or merely suggestion. Starting in 1977, he sought an effective test to prove the existence of external qi. Later, he met Ms. Gu Hansen, a scientist working in the Shanghai Institute of Atomic Nucleus, the Chinese Academy of Sciences. She was interested in research on amplifiers of micro-signals and also in life sciences. They collaborated on testing the existence of qi with modern scientific instruments. The following are the experiments: - Two close-range infrared surveyors were designed. The surveyors directing to the right Laogong of Lin Housheng received the infrared radiation at a distance of 1.2 cm from its receiving transducer when he emitted his qi. When qigong was well performed, the infrared modulation depth was as high as SO'YO with a low frequency of 0.05 per second; but when Lin Housheng held his qi, the infrared modulation depth was less than 10% with a high frequency of 0.3 per second. By the end of qi emission, the modulation depth was round 30% with a frequency of 0.17 per second. The results revealed that the infrared radiation of the qigong master was specific, different from that of ordinary
people whose modulation depth was less than 10%. - With the aid of the electric charge detector, it was found that Laogong was full of electrostatic charge when Lin Housheng emitted qi. The polarity changed along with the change of physiological status. When Lin Housheng felt comfortable, there was an increase of negative charge and when he held the qi, there was an increase of positive charge. This suggested that the bioelectricity emitted by a well-trained qigong master could rearrange the doublets (bipolar particles) of living substance at the acupoint area from randomness to a specific order.
- It was detected that the electric resistance at Neiguan (a point on the anterior aspect of the forearm between the two tendons, 2 cun above the transverse crease of the wrist) was drastically reduced when qigong was practiced. According to the resonance theory, this phenomenon can be attributed to the electric resonance at the site where the tissue contains a kind of structural substance with magnetic action, most probably nickel protein (protein combined with nickel). With the aid of modern scientific instruments, they carried out the preliminary determination of qi and concluded that the external qi in qigong was composed of infrared radiation modulated at a low frequency and that the qigong master emitted infrared electromagnetic waves. For the first time the existence of qi was proved. In May 1978 their paper entitled "The Preliminary Experimental Results of Investigation on the Material Basis of Qigong Therapy" was published in the first issue of Zi Ran Za Zhi (Journal of Nature) in Shanghai. These results evoked worldwide reaction. Since then the labels of "superstition,' and "witchcraft" have been removed from qigong and many scientists are interested in the research of qigong. Soon after the above experiments, Gu in collaboration with another qigong master called Zhao Wei gave evidence to show the "external qi" in qigong as a kind of corpuscular flow, and published a paper entitled "The Preliminary Experimental Report on Detecting the Material Basis of 'External Qi' -Corpuscular Flow." The following was found in their experiments. 1. The external qi emitted by the qigong master standing one meter away moved a thread hung in the air and caused forward and rotatory movements of dust. 2. The signal of external qi sent by the qigong master was detected in four ways: (1) Experiment on the distance and range of its action: 27.5 mv. was detected by the central probe at a distance of 50 cm, 22.5 mv. at a distance of 100 cm, and 10 mv at a distance of 150 cm. Thus, the greater the distance, the less the intensity of the signal action. (2) Experiment on the speed of motion: Within a distance of 1040 cm from the qigong master's finger to the probe, the speed of the sig nal motion was 20-50 cm/sec. (3) Counter-current experiment: The signal sent by the qigong master like the molecular flow of the air could penetrate a 60~ p laser grating but could not penetrate a
piece of glass. (4) Copper-grid experiment: The signal sent by the qigong master was partly captured by the electric field of the copper grid.
The above experiments indicate that: (1) The signal, i.e., external qi sent by the qigong master is a kind of corpuscular flow.
(2) The signal sent by the qigong master is similar to the molecular flow of the air, the diameter of the corpuscles being larger than the intermolecular distance of glass, but smaller than 60~ p. (3) The signal sent by the qigong master is different from the molecular flow of the air, some of the corpuscles being positively or negatively charged. Almost at the same time, similar results were obtained in Beijing by some other qigong masters and scientific researchers. Detection of the Infrared Rays and Infrasonic Waves of Qigong.

In the early eighties, Huang Xiaokuan, a qi-gong master In Beijing and some scientific researchers carried out experiments to detect the infrared rays and infrasonic waves of the external qt in qigong. Infrared Rays Infrared rays were detected from the right Laogong of three qigong masters with a thermograph of the type AGA 6SOLW made in Switzerland. At a distance of 1-2 meters away from the receiving probe, the elevation of the infrared rays during the emission of qi from the hand or eye can be shown in Table 1.



Table 1. Elevation of infrared Rays During Emission of External Qi In Hand or Eye
Practice.
Qigong Master Period of Qi Far infrared Region of
(Code name) Emission (mm) Elevation Practice
A 5 0.50C hand
B 3 0.30C hand
B 5 1.00C eye
C 5 0.60C hand

Infrasonic waves: They repeatedly detected the infrasonic change with a infrasonic detector made by the B & K Co., from Denmark, when the external qi was emitted from the Laogong of three qigong masters. They used two different methods of detection direct touching, i.e., direct touch of the energy transducer with the skin of the point area, and air conduction, i.e., detection with a space kept between the transducer and the skin of the point area. The experiments were carried out both in an ordinary laboratory and in a sound-proof room. The infrasonic change detected during the emission of external qi is shown in Table 2.

Table 2. Change in the infrasonic spectrum Before and after Qi Emission.

Qigong Direct Touching Air Conduction Region of Practice

Master Before After Value Before After Value
(Code Name) practice practice of elevation practice practice of elevation
(Hz) (Hz) (Hz) (Hz) (Hz) (Hz)
A 33 48 15 33 53 20 Right Laogong
B 37 52 15 41 60 19 Right Laogong
C 33 48 15 Right Laogong


From the above data it can be seen that qi is the basic substance to maintain and.regulate life. When the qigong master sends the external qi to the patient, the latter will have a feeling of numbness, heat, distention and relaxation, as well as involuntary movements of the body directed by the external qi. From the perspective of biophysics,this can be explained as the result of information transmission. The external qi has the effect of promoting and readjusting the flow of qi and blood in the meridians and collateral’s, and regulating the neurohumoural function for recovery from fatigue and
strengthening the body resistance against disease. All of these may be related to the infrared and infrasonic action of the external qi on certain substances in the patient's body. Experiments also showed an increase of infrared information and the relationship between the intensity of the infrared information and the length and continuity of the practice. Infrasound is a kind of inaudible sound with a frequency less than 20 Hz. It is characterized by low attenuation and distant propagation. Therefore, the infrasound produced by qigong has great energy and can affect the arteries or peripheral circulation from a long way off to promote the blood circulation and induce body movements. In other words, the infrasound of qigong has penetrative power from a long distance. In brief, the promotion of blood flow and induction of involuntary body move-ment by external qi is the result of the combined action of infrared and infrasonic information. The effect of the infrared information is to dilate the blood vessels of the affected area by heat, while the effect of the infrasonic information is to improve the blood circulation by removing the obstruction of the affected blood vessels. In addition, there may be some. other information that has not been known. This is the scientific basis of the therapeutic effect of qigong.

 

http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers.php

http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers/Waiqireview0630.pdf

http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers/BOOKREVIEW4SQE.pdf

 

Ugh your pulling the "You can't prove it doesn't exist!" Rubbish:tired The burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the claimant,nothing exists until the claiment has proof,that line of reasoning is just ridiculous,Flying spaghetti monster?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

No you probably won't find me ghost hunting any time soon but as I said I'm open to reality,I even said if ghosts do exist in your example then I would accept them as fact,If I saw a 60 foot Mechanized Barbara Streisand living in the Alps,I'd then accept Mechanized Barbara Streisand's as fact.

No I look at your pictures and say "Mmmm three horned deer,nice!" Then go back to sleep.:-D:cool

Yes and he came to the same conclusion that the question is null and void.

Nah don't waste your time.

Read what my question was again,I asked you if you could explain his and the Monks tricks using known science something simple the same way you would explain a magic trick for example Chang had a pre prepared partially drilled hole in the table for the chopstick,he couldn't find it from the top so had to go underneathsimple no need for something unexplained,Chi or chopsticks burning through tables like plasma cutters.

I knew it would be incredibly hard or impossible for you because you have become so programmed one way,you have so much invested in these powers being real its practically impossible for you to entertain the idea that what your seeing is nothing more than a simple illusion,you have become close minded to disproving Chang,the same close minded you were accusing me of.

 

Rikky,

I can see this debate is going to be tough for you, as I used to be a weak atheist debater. I converted several Christians in my time. However first and foremost before atheism I was a freethinker, and still consider myself to be a freethinker. Being a freethinker means you base your world view and beliefs off the hard evidence available to you. That you have faith in nothing. I believe I still meet those qualifications.

First off I am not saying you can not prove it does not exist. That's not what I said. When you make a claim like X exists or X does not exist the burden of proof is upon the person making a positive knowledge claim.


Also this is a little different than an average christian belief system supported wholly by faith. Taoist neigong schools usually are level based systems offering internal signs, and require tests to progress to the next level.

I came here offering documentaries and studies from around the globe of abilities developed via such training. I didn't ask you to just believe it on faith.


I have offered you some studies done, I could list probably 5 pages worth, but I doubt you will be satisfied with any of them, because you've already made up your mind on the subject.

I would be willing to bet even if I was able to introduce you personally to a neigong master, you'd still think it was all just trickery no matter how much testing was done.

[youtube]PERiIq5WM4M[/youtube] This is a better viewpoint.

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/entertainment/watch/v279947teRHBpKg (Skip to 12:20)

This is master Tu Jin-Sheng and a chopstick demonstration.

 

Impressive I enjoyed watching the bbc series kick A$$ moves,again nothing more than skill and training though,nothing that can't be quantified and reproduced.

 

One the the people I have trained with here in the us, can cut wooden pencils in half using a dollar bill. It's a neat trick of skill and chi mastery. He is also able to generate perceptible levels of chi like chang.

http://www.robertpeng.com/videos/chop_stick.wmv

Chang's chopstick demonstration has been preformed on solid wood and chopsticks that students supplied. If its a magic trick its a darn good one.

 

I fail to see how or why any of this is funny. Personally I think seeing the limits of human potential pushed beyond what we believe is possible is cool as freekin heck, that's just me however. I want to see us become Gods of this universe, it that happens first via science and technology or through individuals training in their spiritual disciplines is irrelevant to me.

 

I think what Emma is driving at is these tricks that are performed never seem to have any practical application other than sideshow tricks,for man to advance we need practical skills that will help all mankind.

Pushing chopsticks through wood,painting on eggs,setting fire to paper,smashing tiles,pulling cars with your genitals will not advance man one single iota.

 

How about frying tumors, internally?

 

roflmao Funny as feck. It's good to have a bit of light relief in these intense discussions. Lighten up y'all.

 

Curing cancer with Chi/telekinesis rolleyes You know your at Majorgeeks Right?

How to break a pencil with a dollar Bill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITIva_-FqKo

Does everyone who sees it fall for it or is it just you?:-D I'm just messin :-D

 

Is there an echo in hererolleyes

Interesting debate but i have to say im with Rikky here.
Smoke and mirrors and all that.
You will be telling me Uri Geller really can bend spoons with his mind next.

 

I don't think uri ever submitted to a real scientific investigation.
I don't know if you actually checked out the information I posted or not, most likely you just skimmed the titles if that.

On discovery channel from a documentary called the real super humans, wim hof tummo (inner fire) meditation master runs 22km almost naked and barefoot in -26*c temps. He also holds the Guinness world record for longest swim under and ice covered lake, the ice is thick enough to drive cars on, and they cut a hole for him using a chainsaw. He also holds many other Guinness world records some related to and some not related to cold endurance.

Another video I posted was from the history channel a documentary on Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical does studies on these tummo monks, and confirms their abilities are legit. I've also posted links to his research.

Tummo in its initial training is nearly identical to the early levels of Chang's school.

Detection of extraordinary large bio-magnetic field strength from human hand during external Qi emission.
Seto A, Kusaka C, Nakazato S, Huang WR, Sato T, Hisamitsu T, Takeshige C.

Department of Physiology, School of Medicine, Showa University, Tokyo, Japan.


Emission of extremely strong magnetic fields from the head and whole body during oriental breathing exercises.
Hisamitsu T, Seto A, Nakazato S, Yamamoto T, Aung SK.

Department of Physiology, Showa University School of Medicine, Tokyo, Japan.


http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers/Waiqireview0630.pdf

Other studies I have posted explain chi or at least its effects in terms of electromagnetic phenomena.

 

Rikky, you asked me a question, I provided a valid answer. What if these abilities exist, what valid purpose would they serve? Healing cancer.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15764007

Myeong Soo Lee, Chang-Won Kang, Hoon Ryu. (2005, February). Acute Effect of Qi- Training on Natural Killer Cell Subsets and Cytotoxic Activity. International Journal of Neuroscience. 115(2): 285-297.

Natural killer cell cytotoxicity increased 60% immediately after one-hour Qi-training and returned to the basal level within two hours after training. Natural killer cell subset number did not change after Qi-training. Natural killer cell cytotoxicity and cell number were not significantly correlated. These data suggest that Qi-training has an acute stimulatory effect on natural killer cell activity but has no effect on phenotypical changes in the natural killer cell subset.

 

Perhaps your right, when I saw this done in person the pencil had a clean cut with a slight angle to it, not broken and splintered like in your video however. I actually broke out a video editor to watch peng's video frame by frame, I didn't see any fingers extended, but your right it might be a magic trick.

 

I am just curious, all of the documentaries and studies I posted what was so unconvincing? Be honest did you even watch or read anything I posted other than this argument with Rikky? We've got a tummo meditation master running 22km in sub zero temps almost naked on discovery channel, and breaking a Guinness world record for furthest distance swum under ice on camera. Dr. Herbert Benson from Harvard Medical confirms extensively the validity and effectiveness of tummo meditation. Studies from reputable Japanese universities, which show qigong induces dramatic increases in human bio-electromagnetic measurements, studies done at the university of Wisconsin which were featured in time magazine, showing monks could raise the amplitude of their highest frequency brainwaves so high they were off the charts.

I think perhaps its just too far removed from our everyday experience to really swallow, perhaps that's the issue, not the research or documentation.

This isn't bigfoot, or aliens, its been studied in lab conditions, albeit not as much as I would like.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1767800

Effect of emitted bioenergy on biochemical functions of cells. Chien CH, Tsuei JJ, Lee SC, Huang YC, Wei YH.

Department of Biochemistry, National Yang-Ming Medical College, Taipei, Taiwan.

The 3-5 microns infrared spectra of the external "Qi" generated by a "Qigong" master from his palm was measured using a III-V compound semiconductor InSb detector. It was found that certain Qigong master can emit two opposite kinds of "Qi": the "facilitating" (beneficial) and "inhibiting" (destroying) "Qi". During the facilitating "Qi" emission, large amount of infrared wave were detected by a temperature rise of the air in the vicinity. When the inhibiting "Qi" was emitted, the infrared wave was absorbed from the environment resulting in a cooling of the air. The temperature rise or drop possibly reflects the fact that the blood flow to the palm was increased or decreased by dilating or constricting the blood vessels through parasympathetic or sympathetic nerves. The biochemical effects of emitted "Qi" from the same Qigong master on the human fibroblast FS-4 were investigated. The facilitating "Qi" caused 1.8% increase of the cell growth in 24 hrs, 10-15% increase of DNA synthesis and 3-5% increase of protein synthesis of the cell in a 2-hr period; while inhibiting "Qi" caused 6% decrease of cell growth in a 24 hr period, 20-23% decrease of DNA synthesis and 35-48% of protein synthesis in a 2-hr period. In addition, we found that the respiration rate of boar sperm increased 12.5-13.0% after receiving 5 min exposure in facilitating "Qi," and a decrease to 45-48% by exposure to 2-min of inhibiting "Qi." The results could be attributed to the effects of emitted "Qi" or energy containing infrared light (wave) and possibly some other types of energy.

 

No i didn't skim it i read your whole debate.
I watched a couple of the vids not all, Its simple you chose to believe something or you don't.
Like people who say they can communicate with the deadrolleyes
Come on! give me a break.

 

Wolf,

I don't like dealing with "beliefs", I like dealing with facts. Let's recap a little bit on just facts, no opinions or beliefs ok.


Metta Meditation:

A few years ago research done on eeg's of advanced Buddhist monks during meditation made headlines. It was unlike anything researches had ever seen. During meditation brainwaves rose to a gamma state of high activity 42hz, its usually associated with aha, or eureka moments, or when your really "getting" and understanding new concepts. Usually then its limited to only short split second bursts of gamma band activity.

These monks showed extremely high amplitude gamma band waves, and were able to sustain them, and both of their brains hemispheres were in perfect synchrony at this frequency. Researchers had never seen anything like it.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/dalai.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43006-2005Jan2.html

http://i.ebayimg.com/04/!BOZpWfgBGk~$(KGrHgoOKiEEjlLmfVPLBJucnC5JNg~~_1.JPG
They talked about this in the march 2005 edition of National Geographic also.




Tummo Meditation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tummo

Tummo meditation or inner fire meditation has been demonstrated under laboratory conditions.

http://www.mindbody.harvard.edu/about/articles/press/meditation_temperature.pdf

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

Most of the research on tummo has been done by Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical. Here is a clip from the history channel done on him and his findings.


[youtube]R-wuOYlxMSY[/youtube]


Wim Hof from the Netherlands has broken several world records, is one of very few known western tummo meditation masters.

This is a clip from discovery channel where he runs barefoot 22km in -26c wearing only a hat and shorts across ice and snow for over 2 hours.

[youtube]madoDvtKEes[/youtube]

This is a clip from guiness world records of him breaking the record on furthest under swim under an ice covered lake (188ft).

[youtube]jfCsSDiPZxk[/youtube]


I had already posted that video on John Chang, it wasn't validated in lab conditions, so I am not going to try to force it down your throat. If you don't believe its legit I respect that.

I doubt you watched it all they do bring in a team of scientists, and he's forced to get naked, and is searched for metal using a metal detector. He is after that still able to power an LED lightbulb.


But I would like to show you some more evidence for qigong in general.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1767800

Effect of emitted bioenergy on biochemical functions of cells. Chien CH, Tsuei JJ, Lee SC, Huang YC, Wei YH.

Department of Biochemistry, National Yang-Ming Medical College, Taipei, Taiwan.

The 3-5 microns infrared spectra of the external "Qi" generated by a "Qigong" master from his palm was measured using a III-V compound semiconductor InSb detector. It was found that certain Qigong master can emit two opposite kinds of "Qi": the "facilitating" (beneficial) and "inhibiting" (destroying) "Qi". During the facilitating "Qi" emission, large amount of infrared wave were detected by a temperature rise of the air in the vicinity. When the inhibiting "Qi" was emitted, the infrared wave was absorbed from the environment resulting in a cooling of the air.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1353653


Detection of extraordinary large bio-magnetic field strength from human hand during external Qi emission.
Seto A, Kusaka C, Nakazato S, Huang WR, Sato T, Hisamitsu T, Takeshige C.

Department of Physiology, School of Medicine, Showa University, Tokyo, Japan.

It is generally accepted that more than 10(-6) gauss order magnetism was not detected in normal human condition. However, we detected 10(-3) gauss (mGauss) order bio-magnetic field strength from the palm in special persons who emitted External Qi ("Chi" or "Ki"). This detection was possible by special arranged magnetic field detection system, consisted of a pair of 2 identical coils with 80,000 turns and a high sensitivity amplifier. Each of the coils were rolled 80,000 turns accurately, and were connected in series in opposite direction, actuating as a gradiometer.




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9051169

Emission of extremely strong magnetic fields from the head and whole body during oriental breathing exercises.
Hisamitsu T, Seto A, Nakazato S, Yamamoto T, Aung SK.

Department of Physiology, Showa University School of Medicine, Tokyo, Japan.

This article reports the result of an experiment that was designed to measure the biomagnetic field emanating from two individuals who were practising traditional Oriental Qi Gong breathing exercises. The biomagnetic field was measured with differential coils wound 80,000 turns, a magnetic needle compass and a digital electromagnetic wave detection device. It was found that an extremely strong magnetic field was emitted from the two individuals. One subject emitted a magnetic field at the level of 200-300 mT (2-3 mGauss) and the other at 0.13 mT (1.3 mGauss). In both cases, moreover, the magnetic needle compass rotated 30 degrees (this was tested 32 times). When the rotation of the needle occurred, a reproducible magnetic field of 800-1500 mT (8-15 mGauss) was indicated on the digital measuring device (this was tested 12 times). It is concluded that traditional Oriental Qi Gong breathing appears to stimulate an unusually large biomagnetic field emission.

 

Public demonstration of Tummo master Wim Hof, breaking more world records on film.


[youtube]UOT2OSb5tUY[/youtube]

Again you can see for yourself, belief has little to do with this.

 

Demonstration of the No touch knockout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_q....skepdic.com/chi.html&feature=player_embedded

 

roflmao If the guy had no toes or tongue, they would still have some other explanation as to why it didn't work.

 

Rikky, Wolf,

Did either of you read my last two posts? I mean seriously guys, did you even look at it? How can you just brush that aside, and point to some new shiny video of an obvious idiot and or fraud?

This tactic of ignoring hard evidence showing what real masters can do, then submitting evidence of obvious frauds is something akin to a straw man argument.

I call BS on your part.

 

Rikky, WildWolf, much as I hate to say it, (well.....I don't) the guy's got a point. Just my little injection. I'm following this thread with fascination. Both sides have good arguments, but I'd hate to dismiss out of hand the power of the human mind.

 

Thanks, I thought my eye was going to jettison itself out of its socket there for a second.

 

I posted that vid because it was funny gezz man don't throw a hissy fit,I have no problem with people being able to control their brain wave patterns I've seen many people do it before,depending on your state of mind,what your thinking about,your stress level will all produce abnormal brain wave patterns.

Now what's different about monks who meditate all day as oppose to regular people?No decent food,no late nights,no girls,they spend all day chilling chanting to a statue and contemplating the never never,they probably also have psychological problems,in other words no stress,that would alter anyone brain waves.

They never use their phenomenal brain waves to help man,to solve the problems of mankind and they never will,its all useless.

I have no problem with people being able to withstand cold temperatures for prolonged periods as I said in my previous post have you even read my posts?

I only have a problem with people bending the laws of physics with their minds,that research in the Taiwanese lab of the effect on cell growth rate is BS or there was external influence that cause the anomalous result.

To recap cold temps Real,brain waves real,psychokinesis BS.