Windows XP/V/7 Product Keys

I often get asked to install Windows for people without a CD (Ie illegally), which of course I always refuse. But what if the person has the CD key, such as a label on their computer, and has simply lost their CD - is the rule that you must have 1 product key per computer, or only use each CD on 1 computer? Also if they had a hard drive with the same version of Windows on it (ie from another machine), would it be legal to clone the hard drive followed by changing the key on the second computer to their second product key?

I seem to remember XP had one set of rules, which then changed for Vista and 7, but I can't find where I read that.

Does anyone know more on the subject and can better explain it to me?

 

In the case of OEM pre-installed systems the manufacturers provide recovery CDs and/or recovery partitions and that is all the licence permits you to use. However the practice of using a different CD/DVD of the same version, and the key off the sticker is widespread. Personally I think it's a licence infringement though I know others here disagree.

 

Okay so then maybe the rules are:
1. You must own a legal Windows __ CD in order to install it on a computer (a pirated CD is still illegal), AND must have a legal Product Key.
2. 1 Product Key per computer
3. The CD can be used as many times as desired for any number of reasons, on as many computers as desired, providing each Product Key is still just used once.

I think what I had read about the rule changes was that from Vista onwards the license changed to imply 1 product key per 'hardware', whereas pre-Vista is was 1 per 'computer'. I seem to remember people debating how it effected having multiple Windows installations on the same computer, and about cloning/copying your boot hard drive.

 

They are supposed to create their own CD when they first acquire the system, but many/most fail to do so.

 

It's a grey area, but unless MS take steps to prevent it the practice of using someone else's CD to reinstall will obviously continue, whether legal or not.

 

I remember a long, long time ago my comp teacher telling us something I have remembered ever since. She said that when you buy software you are not purchasing the disc, you are simply purchasing the license to personally use the software on the disc - they give you the actual disc for free. My interpreation at the time was that once you have bought that license, you are then able to obtain and use any any copy of that exact same software. This doesn't give you the right to distribute the software though, meaning anyone that gives you the disc is breaking the law.

So what she said certainly supports your post TimW. Ethically too it makes the most sense as not only have people with legitimate product keys paid for it, but Microsoft are in the software making business, not the physical CD manufacturing business.

 

That is true if you have bought a retail product, but it is not true for OEM. You pay a lot less for an OEM licence but your rights are restricted as I said in #3.

 

I have seen this discussed many times at many forums, with never a total agreement of the masses of what is and isn't legal. I personally believe and will always trust that it's the key. My thinking: I paid $179 for 7 Ultimate, now the physical disc cost them about $0.10, then what did I pay for? I'm thinking the license. I have iso images of 95, 98SE, ME, 2000, XP & Vista in 32 & 64 bit. I have them slipsteamed with sata, lan, etc drivers when appropriate. I use these to reinstall for people USING THEIR KEY because it makes my life easier. Because asking the average person for their cd's usually gets the response like yea, it's in this box over here, oh this crack, will that hurt anything? Am I in total compliance? Probably not, do I sleep well at night? Yes.

 

It's really odd that there's even debate about it. I don't mean that it's odd because opinion X is cleeeeearly right. I mean it's odd that Microsoft doesn't have a public, easy to find explanation of what you can or cannot legally do. This debate has gone on for years, so the only reason I can think that such an explantion doesn't exist is that the current situation of people being unsure must work in Microsoft's favor.

I agree, Earthling's post in post #3 meshes well with what my comp teacher tought us.

Here's what I don't understand though. When we buy some software we are buying the license to use intellectual property - in the same way we buy [the license to use] music, [the license to use] videos and so on. Since we don't sign any contracts when we buy [the license to use] the software, then the manufacturer is only protected by standard intellectual property laws. However, when we download updates for the software, we do have to agree to some terms and conditions - any limitations regarding the product key would have to be in there to be legal.

If that theory stands, then we can use any key on any CD. The product key would then be a worthless number we can exchange freely, but only the software would be restricted. However - assuming the terms and conditions of the updates do indeed mention the product key - we can only obtain updates if we're using the key that came with our software license.

But if all that is true, then we aren't allowed to use our CD on a client's computer using their key, but are then allowed to use our key with their CD (however they would then be in breach of contract if they updated Windows!).

 

What I have found over the years, is that some manufacturers, such as Toshiba, will have you provide the serial number for the particular PC/Laptop, so as to receive the proper discs. You can't use those types of discs on other PCs. The discs are burned so as to not let you do that.

However, with Dell discs, you can install XP on ANY machine provided the license key matches the OS version, regardless of brand. They are simply OS discs, with no "loyalty". You just need to obtain the proper drivers for the particular hardware, if necessary.

The nice thing about your average Dell disc, is that it is FREE OF CRAPWARE. I have satisfied many happy clients with my Dell collection of XP discs.

The easiest thing to do, is get them direct from the manufacturer of that particular PC. They are usually available at a nominal price, usually the cost of shipping. Often, you spend at the maximum $25 USD for a valid version of the operating software.

The only catch is, you MUST use their license key (COA) on that particular PC's label. If you use another, someone else could be a peck of trouble. You can't activate the same license key simultaneously on two separate PCs. As it was stated prior, you are purchasing a LICENSE FOR A PARTICULAR SOFTWARE VERSION. You have paid for the OS, and it should matter not where the source disc is from, as you have purchased the rights to use the software.

I actually have a collection of COA's, from old computers I've scrapped. Recycling does pay dividends, at times...

 

Here is the Microsoft page that goes into detail about this issue, and it makes it absolutely clear that the widespread practice of using your own disk to reinstall to an OEM machine is, as I have repeatedly stated, a licence infringement.

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/licensing_faq.aspx#faq3

and here is the key paragraph -

 

And, unfortunately, that OEM package is usually LOADED with crapware.

Will Microsoft track us all down, and prosecute?

Hopefully not...

 

Since it's been going on for years they obviously aren't really concerned - probably because it isn't a licence they have issued that is in breech, it's the OEM's.

 

It is a violation of the MS EULA but it's not costing them money from sales so they don't waste resources pursuing it.

 

It's a violation of the OEM EULA, not the MS EULA, and if anyone is coming after you it will be the OEM. MS have no legal interest in the issue.

 

Okay I broke down and read all of that Licensing FAQ, the Localized OEM System Builder License, and the XP Pro retail eula too (attached below). An OEM System Builder is defined in section 2 of the System Builder License:

So basically if we're involved in selling a computer, then we're considered a 'System Builder'. That definition doesn't extend to those of us that fix computers. That makes the section Earthling found really confusing - why is a computer seller reinstalling Windows for a customer? There are several mentions that a System Builder must offer support for the end user, so I can only think it relates to that. I agree though, it does read exactly like the rules for a computer repairer, and I suspect if such rules exist they will probably be a direct copy and paste job.

Also I need to correct myself on my last post where I had a theory about the product key and updating Windows. I forgot that when installing Windows, you agree to the End User Software License Terms (EULA). So by installing Windows, you will ultimately have agreed to the EULA (1 computer per product key etc). When you buy a computer with Windows pre-installed you are presented with the Welcome screens, and I suspect (but can't remember) that in the course of those screens your asked to agree to the EULA. If you're now wondering what happens when you purchase a second-hand or refurbished computer, the Licensing FAQ covers it:

That means the purchaser now owns the license, but Hasn't agreed to the End User Software License Terms! Great huh! Well no, and for two reasons. Firstly, in the EULA:

Critically this says that if the new owner hasn't agreed to the EULA then the old owner is in violation, not the new owner.

Secondly standard intellectual Copy-write laws still prevent you editing, distributing or duplicating the software. So you still won't be able to install the O/S on a second computer either, because doing so would require you to agree to the EULA during the install.


I agree the common consensus in this thread was right: that the owner of an OEM license is only legally allowed to have Windows or parts of Windows reinstalled if it's the exact same software they are licensed to use - ie they need the OEM disc. I believe this is entirely due to standard intellectual Copy-write laws as I've read the EULA and there's simply no mention of reinstalling, repairing, or borrowing a CD. The owner of the computer will only have agreed to the EULA and of course be limited by the standard intellectual Copy-write laws, nothing else. They don't have a license to use other similar software, but do have the license to use a different copy of the same software. In other words, if they have a DELL XP Home CD, they can't use a retail XP Home CD for any purpose. But if they have a friend with the same DELL XP Home CD then they do have the license to use it. Although the friend would then be distributing the software illegally! The friend also couldn't sell it to them since they'd be selling their license to use the CD, forcing them to uninstall Windows from their computer. Note though: I don't have access to an OEM version of the XP EULA.

Finally, the computer repairer. Again the EULA has no mention of repairing/reinstalling a customer's Windows installation from the repairer's CD. However the standard intellectual Copy-write laws should prevent it as it's probably considered distribution since, for example, sfc /scannow will be copying files from the CD to the computer. I believe the only legal solution for a comp tech to repair a bad Windows install without the customer's CD would be to use an OEM purchased from the owner's computer manufacturer, copy files to the owner's computer as needed then to either destroy, sell or give them the CD as they must now transfer license to them. Any fix involving recovering the Windows files from their computer (such as making and using restore CD/DVDs from the backup software their manufacturer included on the computer) would also be legal.

 

Hi

My two cents on the subject:

First of all, OEM licenses restrict that license to the computer. If the key is used on a different computer, that's in violation of MS EULA. RETAIL licenses on the other hand, can be transferred to different computers (albeit one license per computer at a time).

The license is for the software, NOT the software media. Software is simply data. I've downloaded torrents of 100% unaltered ISOs of different versions of Windows, because it's easier to burn a fresh disk if the one I was using last week gets scratched, etc. I keep the ISO images on my hard drive, and burn the disk when the disk I was using doesn't work as well anymore. Note that MS does NOT put copy protection on the Windows install disks... ANYONE with an install disk can create an ISO image and/or copy the disk.

Whoever thinks up technology simply weren't thinking of longevity when making optical disks in the first place. One drop of the disk or one crumb pushed on the disk can make it non-readable. Even fingerprints can mess with reading the disks.

As long as whoever I'm installing Windows for has a key that matches the Windows edition I'm installing, I think it's kosher. If MS cared about actual disk media, they wouldn't allow manufacturers to create their own bloatware-infested versions of OS install disks.

Also remember that MS includes ALL versions of Vista and 7 (Basic through Ultimate) on their install disks... the license key is what determines the version. MS doesn't care about the media, only the actual software licensing.

You also have to realize the INTENT. Distribution of software media as referred to by MS is talking about you going around giving people Windows disks, not using one to reinstall the OS on a computer that had that OS on it in the first place.

 

Really? So have you not read the attachment in #15? Or do you think it doesn't apply in your case? Or is it simply that you prefer to act as if you didn't know about it!

 

Basically, that paragraph states that if you buy a PC that has bloatware, you should reinstall all of the bloatware, and if your computer didn't come with a Windows disk (most don't in the States, and a lot of computers don't even come with recovery media creation software), you're screwed. This entire forum disagrees with that, and supports "borrowing a friend's Windows disk", etc. I noticed you didn't address the real points of my post.

 

I want to thank the folks here for discussing this issue. It is complicated for a simple minded guy as myself, though I am trying to follow along, and gain some understanding of the right thing (whatever that is).

I hope folks continue the discussion in a civil fashion, as I truly admire the intelligence and hard work that folks have put into educating themselves in these areas.

I'm not suggesting there's a problem. I'll restate I'm trying to follow along to learn something.

MajorGeeks folks are great folks!

 

Fact is it is the OEM that has granted the licence and set its terms and the user, by using the system has accepted them. If an OEM decided to prosecute anyone over this then it would simply be a question of whether the terms had been breeched or not, and what this forum or anyone else may think about it would be entirely irrelevant. However this is the real world, and I doubt any OEM is going to start a whole series of prosecutions against individuals, where the costs would surely far outweigh the damages.

That doesn't make it right though.

 

Damages? What damages, implied or actual, could possibly result from using a different physical disk that contains the same Windows version to reinstall that Windows version on a machine?

If we followed every law in existence to the letter (not just intellectual property laws, either), the sheer red tape would strangle people. I firmly believe that following the intent and spirit of the laws is the most important thing. If it was a genuine concern of MS that different disks are used to reinstall the same Windows version on machines, they would be using copy protection on their media like the music industry does, and have all OEM software disks bound to the motherboard serial number, or at least model number, of the machine it belongs to. It's not, though.

 

If you should ever find yourself up in front of a judge for some misdemeanour you had better cross your fingers and hope he takes your flexible view of which laws you should follow and which it's ok to bend or ignore :-D

 

Actually, most judges, law enforcement, and the likes share my view. Laws are designed to protect people, and in the case of this thread's subject matter, corporations (profit, to be specific).

I'm not bending or ignoring anything, just balancing myself between technicalities and practicalities. Personally, I think that every computer that gets sold with a licensed copy of Windows should include a Windows disk with it. That's what, an extra $0.50? Then, have all of the bloatware and etc. on a second disk.

You still have not brought up any intelligent replies to the things I've stated. All you've done is quoted one website, and attacked me.

 

Ah, something we really do agree about -

I suggest we should leave it at that

 

Since you can't come up with any intelligent replies to what I've stated, I guess I'll have to settle for that.

 

What does all this mean for people, like myself, that buys a brand new, never used, OEM disk from the neighborhood PC store or off of eBay?

 

Apparently, you should be jailed, fined, and have the disk confiscated.:-D

EDIT: Are you talking about a System Builder copy of Windows? If so, it can only be used on one machine.

 

I used to work at a computer store, sold networks, oem, retail etc here's the deal, the serial number is linked to one computer and one owner only, technically, even when you buy a used computer with someone else's install on it it's illegal, a serial number is attached to one install one time, anything else is technically illegal, so yes, if yer neighbor gives you a computer, and you don't buy a new install disc yes you are operating pirated software, most folks think pirated or illegal is from a "download" with a "patch" or "crack" not true in court, and it gets worse if you use yer new set up for business, so anytime i sold a large network or small network, all new "seats" and hardware, linked to that company and a name
is this practical, fair, or do i even agree with it? :cool
Lets just say Merry X-Mas to all

 

My post #20 covers most of the legal issues. You would be allowed to use that disc to repair/install the O/S on someone's computer, but after doing so you wouldn't be allowed to use the software any more, as you have effectively transfered the license to the owner of that computer (in exactly the same way that the guy on Ebay transfered the license to you).

Earthling points out that the OEM has their own EULA on each CD, so they may have a clause saying that the CD could only be used on their brand of computer. I don't have access to that EULA to know myself, though if anyone has an OEM version on XP please post the EULA (its in C:\Windows\System32\eula.txt).

For the OEM to have any legal recourse with you, they must have terms in the EULA for you to agree to when you first use your computer. The act of buying the computer is of course only a contract of sale of goods, not an agreement to any terms of conditions. If you read the manuals that come with many appliances you'll often see a statement about terms and conditions contain a phrase like "By openning this pack you agree to the Terms and Conditions held within. If you do not agree to the Terms and Conditions, repack the contents and return them to your retailer". That looks very official and legal but it is entirely unprosecutable. The Defense can very simply (and legitimately) say that they didn't read the manual.

It's similarly true of copying files from one persons disc to anothers computer (eg when repairing someone's installation). The Defense can simply say "no we didn't", or even argue that they had already bought the CD and license at an earlier date - remember it's for the prosecution to prove them wrong. I also very much agree with mcsmc - judges tend to care more about the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law in small courts, however in big courts they follow the letter of the law. Let's be honest though, the hundred or so dollars Microsoft (or perhaps the OEM) can expect to win is far eclipsed by the tens of thousands of dollars to hold the trial.

I think to summarize this thread:

• It is breaking Copy-write laws to distribute any of the contents of the Windows CDs
• It is a breach of the contract you agreed to in EULA to install the software on more that one computer (even if you own it)
• The OEM may or may not have special restrictions in their own EULA (we're not certain yet)
• Microsoft is never going to take someone to court for sharing a CD to restore someone's ability to use Windows after losing it (though they'd be legally entitled to)
• Microsoft probably won't take someone to court for very clear and unethical things like selling copies of their CD or Product key, because it's cost-prohibitive (though they'd be legally entitled to)
• Ethically it's generally agreed that if someone paid to use a version of Windows, then helping them regain their ability to use it after it was lost is OK
• Ethically it's not okay to upgrade their version of Windows, with it being worse the larger the upgrade (XP Home Dell -> XP Pro retail isn't so bad, but Win98 -> Win7 is wrong without question)

 

I'm afraid I politely disagree. On post #15 we have MS's view on System Builders (E.g. refurbishers like the store you mentioned) reselling computers: