RAM - More memory or speed for same price?

Hello,

Currently I'm trying to upgrade my PC to better handle 3D simulations (smoke and fluids) and also to be able to work on higher resolution meshes (more polygons) within a 3D space. At the moment I'm limited as I begin to get lag as I get to higher levels of detail, though I'm not too sure as to whether this concerns the speed of the RAM or the amount. At the moment I have 2GB of DDR2.

A few reasons why I need more RAM:

- When I get beyond about 1.5 million polygons, my 3D application crashes. When I'm around my maximum of 1.5 million, task manager says I am using 1.92GB of my 2GB of RAM.

- When I am running a simulation, the further up in detail I go, the slower it becomes (naturally). I have seen videos of others running simulations at a much higher speed with more RAM than I have. When I opt to go for a certain amount of detail in my simulations, my application crashes, where I find others with more RAM are able to run a simulation at more than twice the detail of mine without crashing. Because it is within a 3D space, when you double the detail the time it takes to simulate is doubled for each dimension (2 in the x direction, 2 in the y direction, 2 in the z direction). That is, it takes 8 times longer.

To help demonstrate my problem, I have 2 types of RAM listed below:

http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/40186-cmz12gx3m3a1600c9
http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/39732-cmz8gx3m2a1600c8

They are both Corsair DDR3, both 1.6GHz, yet the 12GB kit costs only $20 more than the 8GB kit. There are figures there I don't understand. They both have "PC-12800", and the 12GB one says 9-9-9-24 while the 8GB one says 8-8-8-24. Why should there be such a small price separating what seems to be one significant advantage over the other (4GB extra RAM)?

Now here comes my big question. There is also 12GB of Kingston RAM for the same price as the 8GB Corsair, but it is 1.33GHz and the figures shown are quite different from those of the Corsair RAM. What I need to know is what significance does the amount of memory I have as opposed to the speed of it have on my simulations and number of polygons I can have? Should I go for more memory in my RAM at a lower speed or less memory at a higher speed for the same price?
I heard elsewhere that I should also upgrade my GPU, but I covered that in a different upgrade with a GTX 460 2GB, so there should be no problems there (the requirements for that upgrade were far more simple).

Hopefully by now I'm not overwhelming you with questions and information, though I have some other concerns as well. I've heard I also need to make sure my motherboard and processor can handle the new RAM (I originally bought this PC pre-built in 2007 or 2008 with just the 2GB of DDR2 RAM). Though I have no idea how I can find this out. Is it a problem that my PC came with DDR2? I thought that maybe it would be likely that it can't use DDR3.

I'm currently running an Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 (no idea what Q6600 means) @ 2.40GHz on 32-bit Windows Vista. I intend to upgrade to 64-bit Windows 7 once I have solved which RAM I should be going for, but I don't know if it will work with my current processor.

Here is the copied information from Everest on my motherboard (the first link is no longer accessible):

Motherboard Properties
Motherboard ID 03/12/2008-Bearlake-6A79OM4BC-00
Motherboard Name MSI MS-7502 (Medion OEM)

Front Side Bus Properties
Bus Type Intel AGTL+
Bus Width 64-bit
Real Clock 267 MHz (QDR)
Effective Clock 1067 MHz
Bandwidth 8533 MB/s

Chipset Bus Properties
Bus Type Intel Direct Media Interface

Motherboard Manufacturer
Company Name Micro-Star Int'l Co.,Ltd.
Product Information http://www.msi.com/index.php?func=prodpage1&maincat_no=1
BIOS Download http://www.msi.com/index.php?func=downloadindex
Driver Update http://www.aida64.com/driver-updates
BIOS Upgrades http://www.aida64.com/bios-updates

So to summarise my questions:
1. Should I go for more memory in my RAM or more speed?
2. Does this mean I need a new motherboard?
3. Can my current processor even run a 64-bit operating system?

Thanks,
Daniel

 

what video card are you using? sounds like you need to upgrade the gpu

 

I mentioned that in the post. I know for a fact it's not a GPU issue. The fact you overlooked that gives me the idea you didn't exactly read my post very carefully. If you don't understand the concept behind the 3D applications, I tried my best to explain it clearly.

Edit: I think I understand your confusion a bit more clearly. Just so you know, this is not running within any form of game engine, so it's not running off my GPU. I am working within a 3D application running straight off the CPU. The GPU is only used to draw the display and I'm guessing the 3D space I'm working within, too, but it doesn't process the polygons or simulation data.

 

just trying to help you out, yes i did miss your statement about your gpu, sorry
maybe someone else will come along and help you.

 

Thanks anyway. I do realise upgrading for 3D applications might require a bit of specialised knowledge.

 

The program in question is Blender, though it would be the same situation if I were using RealFlow (for fluid simulation), FumeFX (for smoke simulation) or Zbrush, Sculptris or Mudbox for working with a high number of polygons (all programs do essentially the same thing as Blender). Yes, my GPU is a GTX 460 2GB.

Just some things to clarify:
- There is a dedicated 32 and 64-bit version for Blender
- The simulations run solely on the CPU (more specifically, when my CPU is generating the simulation data, so no graphics are being used)
- I know for a fact that having a higher amount of RAM will increase the speed I can work at, I just don't know if it's the quantity of memory of the RAM, or the speed of it.
- I will be upgrading to 64-bit Windows 7, but I don't know if the processor needs to come into consideration before upgrading to it

Allow me to simplify this into one simple question.

When I am running a smoke simulation at a certain level of detail, my CPU is what is generating the simulation data (otherwise known as "baking"). It will generate each frame of the simulation in a certain amount of time, so essentially it is frames per second, though not to be confused with the graphical counterpart. Remember, this is running solely on the CPU. I might be running a certain simulation, and it is generating the data for each frame in 5 seconds, so I've got 0.2 frames per second. Someone else running the same simulation, but with more RAM, will be generating the data faster, so let's just say 1 frame per second.
Let's say I were to buy some RAM to try and match that speed. Would my data for the simulation be generated faster if I had, say, 12GB memory at 1.33GHz, or 8GB memory at 1.6GHz?

 

If you have DDR2, why are you looking at DDR3? They are not compatible or interchangeable and there are only a small handful of "crossover" motherboards that support both kinds. From what I can find on your motherboard (the link above does not work) your board only supports DDR2.

 

I'm not planning to use them both in conjunction. I'm taking the DDR2 out and putting in DDR3.

Thanks.

 

I had a hard time finding anything on that motherboard... if you care to share the links, we can probably find OP some memory upgrades.

And Daniel_W, amount of memory > speed of memory in 99% of all cases I've seen.

 

This is the page for the PC I bought.
http://www.medion.de/ms/aldi/md8390/au/flash.html
And this is a review page of the exact same deal:
http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Reviews/Home_Office/G9P7S9V4?page=3

I, too, have struggled to find anything on this motherboard.

Just the advice I was looking for on that problem. Thanks.

Edit: Just so you know, at the moment I'm looking at two options. A small upgrade up to 8GB RAM and then upgrading again in a few years, or a full upgrade with new motherboard, processor and 12GB RAM to last for a while longer (already recently upgraded my GPU and PSU). If I can upgrade my RAM without a new motherboard, then great. Otherwise I don't want to have to buy a new motherboard which won't end up lasting me much longer anyway, just to cater for the 8GB DDR3.

 

I looked on the MSI motherboard archives and found a list of Socket 775s.
http://us.msi.com/index.php?func=prodarchive&maincat_no=1

The one that most closely matches the name of mine (at all) is this one:
http://us.msi.com/index.php?func=proddesc&maincat_no=1&cat2_no=&cat3_no=&prod_no=609
Though by comparing what it says on the box and this website, they aren't exactly consistent with each other. Mine appears to be slightly better, and the one at the above link doesn't support Core2 Quad while mine does.

Having said that, if naming conventions (they are both similar) are anything to go by, I'm guessing they were both made around the same time and I shouldn't bet that it would work with DDR3, let alone 8GB (as this one has a limit of 4GB).

Is there anything wrong with my reasoning?

 

You cannot do that! As I noted earlier, DDR2 and DDR3 are not compatible or interchangeable. If the motherboard supports DDR2, you MUST use DDR2. As can be seen here, the modules are keyed differently so they will not even fit in the same slots. So don't even attempt to try or you will damage the modules, the motherboard, or both.

The manual for the MS-7502 is here. Note on page 1-2 it says,

***

Here is my canned text on finding RAM.

These popular RAM makers have auto-scanning and/or manual entry RAM wizards to help you determine which RAM is compatible with your motherboard. For manual entry, enter/select the PC or motherboard make and model number and the wizard will list compatible RAM.

Crucial - Memory Advisor
Corsair - Memory Configurator (manual data entry only)
GeIL - Memory Configurator (manual data entry only)
Kingston - Memory Search (manual data entry only)
Mushkin - Advisor
OCZ - Memory Configurator (manual data entry only)
Patriot - Memory Search (manual data entry only)
PNY - Memory Configurator (manual data entry only)
SuperTalent - Memory Finder (manual data entry only)​

The following retailers have auto-scanners and manual wizards. They sell brand name and/or "house" brand (re-branded) RAM.

Newegg - Memory Configurator System Tool
MemoryStock - Upgrade Configurator
18004Memory – Configurator
4AllMemory - Memory advisor (automatic and manual)
TigerDirect - Memory Configurator (manual data entry only)​

 

Aha! Now I understand.

My confusion was due to my ignorance on the topic, however I've learned quite a bit about RAM over the past 24 hours and now it all makes sense! Well, there's my problem solved. New motherboard, new RAM, new processor... I was prepared to have to resort to this anyway, so there's no real problem.

However... When it comes to finding what I need...
Could I please get some advice on what I should be buying?

Here is the RAM I'm now looking at:
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16305
I'm assuming it needs to go with a motherboard which supports triple channel RAM, so I'm wondering if the following is a good choice:
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16624
If not, are there any that might be good from the following list between the price range of $250-$300?
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=138_711_775
Finally, I need a new processor. There are two Intel Core i7s here:
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=138_711_775
Am I okay to go for the cheaper one?

Thanks

P.S. I hope it's not a problem to change the topic from a RAM issue to a product choice thread, however I'd already made two topics in an attempt to find what would be best for me, and I wanted to refrain from making another.

 

Understand that the motherboard, as noted by its name, is the heart of the computer so a new motherboard is essentially a new computer. As such, software makers see an upgraded motherboard as a new computer too. This means your new computer will need a new operating system license. You CANNOT legally transfer Windows licenses from an old machine to a new machine. The ONLY exception is if the original license is a "Full Retail" license bought separately through retail outlets - and you have removed Windows from the old machine. If your original Windows license is an OEM, System Builders, or Upgrade copy, you must buy a new license for your new computer as those licenses are tied to the old hardware, even if the old hardware is no longer in service. So be sure to add that to your budget.

Also, budget for a good, capable PSU for your new hardware, but do not size it until you have settled on all the other hardware.

 

Thanks for the advice. I've already chosen to upgrade to Windows 7, as I was aware of the "new computer" stuff (and also that my current 32-bit Vista wouldn't allow me to have more than 4GB of RAM).

What wattage PSU do you think I'm looking at getting? I'm not quite sure how to find out power requirements of these parts, as it doesn't list it blatantly.

 

Here's my canned text on that.

Use the eXtreme PSU Calculator Lite to determine your minimum power supply unit (PSU) requirements. Plan ahead and plug in all the hardware you think you might have in 2 or 3 years (extra drives, bigger or 2nd video card, more RAM, etc.). Be sure to read and heed the notes at the bottom of the calculator page. I recommend setting Capacitor Aging to 30% (see my note below), and if you participate in distributive computing projects (e.g. BOINC or Folding@Home) or extreme 3D animated gaming, I recommend setting both TDP and system load to 100%. These steps ensure the supply has adequate head room for stress free (and perhaps quieter) operation, as well as future hardware demands. Research your video card and pay particular attention to the power supply requirements for your card listed on your video card maker's website. If not listed, check a comparable card (same graphics engine and RAM) from a different maker. The key specifications, in order of importance are:

1. Current (amperage or amps) on the +12V rail,
2. Efficiency,
3. Total wattage.

Don’t try to save a few dollars by getting a cheap supply! Digital electronics, including CPUs, RAM, and today's advanced graphics cards, need clean, stable power. A good, well chosen supply will provide years of service and upgrade wiggle room. Look for power supply brands listed under the "Good" column of PC Mech's PSU Reference List. Another excellent read is Tom’s Hardware, Who’s Who In Power supplies: Brands, Labels, And OEMs. Note that some case retailers “toss in” a generic or inadequate PSU just to make the case sale. Be prepared to “toss out” that supply for a good one with sufficient power.

Most PSUs have an efficiency rating of around 70%. This means for every 100 watts of power a PSU draws from the wall, only 70 watts is delivered to the motherboard, with the rest wasted in the form of heat. The best supplies are 85 to 90% efficient, and as expected, cost more. I strongly recommend you pick a quality supply with an efficiency rating equal to or greater than 80%. Look for 80 PLUS and EnergyStar Compliant labels. 80 PLUS PSUs are required to have fairly linear efficiencies. This is important to ensure the PSU is running at or near peak efficiency regardless the load or power demands. Non-linear PSUs typically are most efficient when the load is in a narrow range between 70 and 90% of the PSU’s capacity and the efficiency may drop dramatically above and below those amounts.

Too big of a PSU hurts nothing but your budget. Your computer will draw from the PSU only what it needs, not what the PSU is capable of delivering. If a computer needs 300 watts it will draw 300 watts regardless if the PSU is a 400W, 650W, or 1000W PSU. In turn, the PSU, regardless its size will draw from the wall only what it needs to support the computer. In this example, it will draw 300 watts, plus another 45 – 90 watts, depending on the PSU’s inefficiency.

As noted, the eXtreme Calculator determines the minimum requirements. If the calculator (with the changes I suggested) recommends a 400 watt minimum, a quality 400W supply will serve you just fine. But a quality 550W – 600W supply will have, among other things, larger heat sinks to dissipate potentially more heat. It might have a larger fan too. The 400W supply will run most of the time closer to capacity, while the larger supply will be loafing along, rarely breaking a sweat. To help the smaller heat sinks get rid of the wasted 80 watts (20% of 400) of heat, the fan in the 400W supply may need to run full speed, while the fan in the larger supply, with bigger sinks just loafs along too – but in near silence.

Don't forget to budget for a good UPS with AVR (automatic voltage regulation). Surge and spike protectors are inadequate and little more than fancy, expensive extension cords.

Note: Capacitor Aging. All electronics “age” over time. Electrons flowing through components bang around and create friction and heat causing wear and tear, altering the electrical characteristics of the device. Over time, this weakens the device resulting in eventual failure. Power supplies have always suffered profoundly from aging effects resulting in a loss of capacity. In recent years, capacitor technologies have improved. The best PSUs use the best (and most expensive) capacitors which suffer less from aging effects than older capacitor types. If planning on buying a new, high-end PSU, setting capacitor aging to 10% may result in a more realistic recommendation. However, headroom “buffer” will be significantly reduced. You can expect your PSU to last 5 years or longer. Since it is better to buy too big rather than too small, and since it is hard to predict what your power requirements will be in 3 years, using 30% for Capacitor Aging ensures you have enough headroom for virtually any upgrade.​

 

Thanks for that. My current PSU is a Corsair 650W (and it has ~82% efficiency), and unless I'm calculating something incorrectly, it seems to be falling within the minimum and recommended requirements, but closer to recommended. I'll calculate things with a bit more precision in the morning, but by the looks of it I might be alright. However, my GPU is a 2GB GTX 460, where they only list a GTX 768MB and 1GB. I tried a 480, a 285 2GB and a 465, all with very differing results. I'm not sure which one my 460 2GB would come closest to.

 

Well, they are constantly adding new cards and CPUs. You might contact them and tell them what you have. They might be able to help you choose the best alternative for the calculator until they can actually test and add yours to their database.

 

I guess I'll go for that, then. Thanks. You've been a great help.
I'd best be off to bed now.

 

Don't let rumors of those new 3" bedbugs keep you from getting a good night's sleep!

 

Yes you can. But it needs to be a full license that is not locked to your hardware. So not OEM, not a version that came with a pre-built computer, et cetera. If you buy a full retail version of Windows so you get an independent license you can transfer it as much as you like. You just can't have it on more than one system at a time.

Just wanted to clear that up.

 

Dude! Did you even read my next sentence?

 

Nope. Got hung up on the blatant falsehood in the one I quoted.

And if I did, others probably will as well, hence why it's good to clarify that you can legally move a license. Just not one of the cheap ones.

 

Which I did. And hence why it is good to read the whole message instead just part and jumping to the wrong conclusion by taking something out of context.

 

I wouldn't stick with Vista through an upgrade for the world, anyway. So the OS really isn't a problem. The original question was about doing a direct upgrade from 32-bit to 64-bit, though from what I have found it isn't possible.

I've decided on ordering the parts on the previous page that I linked to, and found that my PSU is good enough to handle it, but could someone please quickly check to make sure they'll all work together? Then my problem will be solved once and for all

 

Very true. If you're going from 32-bit to 64-bit you need to make a clean install...

I'll take a close look at your hardware list tomorrow, when it's not as close to midnight and I'm not as exhausted as I am now. That is, assuming you still need help, 24 hours from now.

 

I'm wondering about the RAM at the moment. I can't tell the difference between the two below. Does one have any significant advantage over the other? Otherwise I can save myself $20.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16624
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16305

 

I've changed my choice of motherboard to this:
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16144

 

Nice board. Just read the OC Club's review - they like it - a lot.