electric power: what's the point?

(spun off from irene thread b/c it feels like a hijack)

does anyone here have electric power? i continue to be stunned at the number of people calling in to talk radio to report being unable to cook or take a hot shower just b/c the power is out.

i thought pretty much everyone in the country in a proper house had natural gas. the exceptions being cheap studios in large complexes or similar short term/corporate-type "residences"/motels/dorms/etc.

i've had to suffer with electric power 2 or 3 times in the past when i was in such studios. forget the blackouts and the higher rates, what about COOKING? electric ranges, hotplates, and microwaves are fine for the average grad student, but who wants to deal with that if you need to cook real meals?? my wife would leave me if i ever suggested getting an electric stove!!

those of you who have electric, is it voluntary? or are you shoehorned into it by local utilities? does the average person have a CHOICE of which to use, or do towns or regions pick one beforehand?

i am genuinely curious. google indicates it's about 50/50 in the US.

 

From a construction standpoint, it depends on the availability of gas mains which are concentrated in the urban and close in suburbs.
The developer of a new residential location, can opt out of providing gas if the cost is too great to tie into a gas main that may not be nearby. Then the developer has to make a choice if he will provide tanks for each house as an option.
Some people can choose at this point to have the option or not.
When you are away from the gas mains out in the country, your only choice is to have tanks installed.
Some people don't have this option if they are renting/leasing.
Also, not all complexes of older apartments/buildings were originally constructed with gas in mind and the cost would be prohibitive to do so now.
Gas usage is a lot more prevalent now than because of the advantages. It wasn't the thing to have back in the 40s, 50s and 60s when a large amount of construction was taking place, electric was.

The northeast corridor has a greater combination of all electric or electric and fuel oil heating than most of the country due to the age of buildings/homes.
When the power goes out, you lose all the fans and/or pumps that circulate either hot air or water.

For myself personally, it wasn't until we had our present house built 17 years ago that gas was an option. All the houses or apartments/dorms I've lived in were either all electric, fuel oil forced hot air or fuel oil hot water/radiator.
This was geographically all in western northern Virginia or central Virginia and none in a heavily urbanized setting. (Small towns or country/suburbs)
It's just what you get used to. I didn't mind for 30-odd some years not having gas. People these days complain if the power goes out for 5 minutes much less a longer period.

Make more sense now CatT?

(And that little switch on the wall, if you flipped it and nothing happened ...........OOPS)

 

great answer. thanks!

except....much of what you say is in direct conflict to what's googling up! for starters, sources say that electric is MORE common in urban settings than in rural. which jibes with my own experience re: yuppie complexes (electric) vs. creaky old farmhouses (gas).

also, widespread links indicate that %age of gas in the US is going DOWN, not up. which, again, matches my experience of modern apt bldg (kitchenette/electric) vs. 200 yr-old house (proper kitchen/gas stove).

you're right about the circulation fans, of course. but i thought it was a feedback system. i.e. some micro-generator powered by the furnace, producing just enough current to keep the system going. honestly, i thought the only external power needed was to kick-start the whole thing! (spark plug over the pilot or sumpin.)

shows how much i know! rolleyes

back to the COOKING, when i was in those studios, i just...STOPPED. electric ranges are just..USELESS....

 

Even Gas stoves cant cook if there's nothing to spark them with. Light it with a lighter and see what happens to you, it's a mess.

Natural Gas just isn't a feasible or a cost effective option in many places, and you are incorrect, gas costs much more that pure electric in many many places. The only time it isn't is when your electric intake far exceeds your gas usage.

When I was on full electric in my old apartment building, I spent MAYBE $150 tops for utilities, and now that I have a Gas home it's almost double that, if not and then some every month. And it keeps going up.

Also with people trending towards greener options, especially in Northern Europe and America, and the environmental damage that drilling for it and processing it causes, it's becoming a less favorable option as people find new ways to generate power without using gas of any kind. Perhaps you've heard all the noise about Hydro-Fraking. That's exactly what's being discussed.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about, I lived quite happily for years with a gas stove that didn't have it's own igniter, it was old and the only way to light it was with taper or match etc, never had any problems.

I currently have an electric stove because thatis what came with the house (I rent), I hate it, would love a gas stove, you can see the heat and cook properly, the electric has nowhere near the control.

In the case of power cut I can use my BBQ

 

I did not say anything about usage, I said the availability of gas mains is greater in urban settings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USgas.jpg - pipelines in US

Very possible % is declining but total usage is increasing.

http://205.254.135.24/dnav/ng/ng_sum_sndm_s1_m.htm - last 6 month usage

http://205.254.135.24/dnav/ng/hist/n9140us1m.htm - 2001 - 2011 usage

http://205.254.135.24/pub/oil_gas/n...natural_gas_monthly/current/pdf/figure_02.pdf consumer deliveries

http://205.254.135.24/dnav/ng/ng_cons_num_a_EPG0_VN3_Count_a.htm - number of consumers

Your house is probably larger than your apartment so usage would go up and depending on the age and insulation could be a factor. Also, in an apartment building depending on the location of the apartment in the building itself, heating and cooling loads would be different. What floor, exposed walls, corner unit, prevailing winds and orientation to sunlight would all be factors in usage.

 

thanks all for the perspectives. thanks especially to Nedlamar for having my back!

i don't know what a "taper" is (google, google), but i do need to use a match to light the stove when the power is out. previous range had a pilot light (always on), but i guess they've decided that's a big waste of gas.

OTOH, it burns up any gas which may LEAK. is some contrived phase-out of pilot lights over the years contributing to the seeming increase in EXPLOSIONS? just a thought.

my own experience is that electric was waaaaaaaaaay more than gas. but it's hard to compare. usually electric was combined with those flaky "on-demand" heaters...which were about as effective as electric ranges.....

as for the "green" aspect, isn't natural gas far CLEANER than electric? i mean, electric usually comes from BURNING COAL somewhere...except in a few lucky areas w hydro or nuclear....

 

It depends on where in the country you are. Keep in mind that the USA is huge in comparison to European countries and pigeon holing the entire lot of us into one demographic just doesn't work.

I don't know about the east coast, but here on the west coast it's actually cheaper for electric when you take into account the cost of equipment (a gas range costs more)and the added gas installation. All of these houses are getting electric anyways when being built, it costs more to hire a contractor for gas installation. Then you need to add venting and there's different codes to follow, etc.... From a home builders standpoint it's just cheaper to go all electric, and many Americans buy pre-built homes with little input to the builder for what they want. Plus there's a good number of electric dams in the area which provide cheap electricity.

My mother in law was living in a brand new condominium community not long ago. They didn't have gas and the developer didn't bother to bring in cable TV. Since all utilities were underground cable TV just wasn't an option at all. High speed internet, while having a few choices just a block in each direction, was limited to one provider because of this same thing. Again, it was more up to the developer than anyone else to what was available. She's now moved to a rural area with no gas lines anywhere close. If catastrophe struck though you can bet that the BBQ grill would see some use, as would the smoker.

 

ok, fair nuff.

i see that "taper" means "thin candle". is this british? US regional? can't say as i've ever heard it ONCE. even living in mother Blighty.

btw, if my gas goes out, i'm rly screwed: the GRILL also runs off gas....

NO BAKED BEANS FOR YOU!

:major

 

guy on radio saying [re: blackout] "rather than buying a full-fledged generator, get an inverter -- much cheaper -- and you can still power your fridge, heater, etc., in little spurts from your (running) car". fair nuff.

but then he adds "you know, you can even run the 14v of your phone line thru it and use THAT as a source instead". really?! isn't there a total POWER issue?

he disclaims "technically, it may not be legal". all fine and dandy, but would it actually WORK?

i would think the phone current would be way way way WAAAAAAAY too low to power much of anything. or does it rise to meet however much you suck out of it?

 

Dont think that sounds legit about the phone lines, but then i have a generator, and i got it cheap, had a friend (electrician) do most of the setup for me and its a nice peace of mind thing in case i do a power outage, just keep in mind if your doing it yourself, have a professional check your setup, cause you can easily back feed into the grid and kill a utility worker if hes working on the lines.

 

I don't know about US or anything, but tapers are definitely available in Britain.
It used to be as you say, a very thin, long candle. Then companies started with very very thin wood, about 10" long, 1/4" wide and maybe 1/16" thick and called them tapers aswell.

How can you have never heard of them?

As for the OP, while I much prefer gas in so many ways I do understand the electric thing, if I remember correctly the electric stove was invented in Canada way back in the late 1800's for one reason, Canada is too big to pipe gas to every house, especially back then. So I do see the point, I just don't like them :-D

 

Really? I was under the impression you would just add extra power into the grid which would in essence feed your neighbours houses,the turbines in the power station would detect the drop in demand and kick down to supply less electricity.

This is how residential solar panels and wind turbines feed into the grid.

Over here if your generate your own electricity via the aforementioned methods or even using a generator the power company HAS to pay you for it by law,of course you have to have a properly set up in/out electricity flow meter you can't just pump it in and expect some bank:-D

Using electricity to generate heat generally costs X3 as much as gas,it makes sense to convert everything that has a permanent place in your home and gets hot to gas.

So electricity is great for convenience but it expensive as a bulk heat energy provider.

I wish I could get hold of a gas powered tumble dryer, I'd pick one up in a snap.

 

Sorta ricky, in essence thats how it works, but i know if your back feeding with out it being done properly and a line man goes to work on that line, expecting it to be dead out, zap, injury to a lineman. I imagine those metering devices and other stuff also serve as a notification to a worker that there is electricty feeding back out and would notifiy the worker to be more careful maybe?

 

yeah, but the point is that if the utility worker has shut off power "upcurrent" of where he's working, he's not expecting ANYTHING in the lines at that particular moment. i am not sure how they cud check for individual house generators, tho, b/c, yes, here in the US we also have that "ulities must allow you to dump/sell home power into the grid" rule. so in theory, you could suddenly electrify the lines even after he's tested to make sure you haven't.

Here, here! Another man of reason!!

Yes, electricity is like 3x more for me too. I can't get over these people saying it's on par -- much less CHEAPER -- than gas in other regions!

The tech nerd in me likes the idea/safety of all being all electrical, but my realworld experience says otherwise. And here I was whining about electric ranges, I had forgotten all about ELECTRIC DRYERS!!!! Now THERE'S a hell I wouldn't want to experience again anytime soon....

Speaking of which, why can't you get a gas one? We replaced a 20-yr-old one a couple of months ago, and there was no comment whatsoever to the effect of "they're hard to find these days".

If I'm not mistaken, I still see several models at Sears. And maybe BestBuy.

 

Most high voltage lines are worked on live using an electrical safety suit although I don't know its technical name so I can't find a pictures? Unless they are being newly installed.

It's funny we're talking about this now its the second time today I've had this conversation:-D

But yeah I guess if the line is dead then the guy goes to work on it after he's checked its dead and hasn't connected a safety device that alerts him if the line becomes live 'an alarm with a flashing light' then he could get shocked.

 

Not talking just high voltage, im talking area clean up after a big storm, lines of all sorts being down, power company being rushed to restore power to everyone.

 

@Cat

http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.210-391...campaign=GSF_TescoDirect&utm_content=210-3916

I've been living a lie:-D Its honestly the first time I've googled 'gas tumble dryers' but I'm truly amazed to find they exist.

Hmmm a tiny little bit more expensive than regular ones but not stoopidly expensive like like other energy saving products.

 

Hehe your stuck in the basement during a storm and you turn on your generator for lighting and fry the the poor guy tryna fix you up:-D

Irony 101.

I really don't know what I'm talking about I've only watched other people work on them and I'm falling asleep where I sit so I'll take your word for it:tired

 

i dunno. long thin candle is "long thin candle" here.

the other thing I would call a "slat", I guess. or a very thin "paint stirrer".

of course, if the end is coated, it is a "long match". which makes lighting the stove/grill a tad easier in a blackout. i agree with Wenchie insofar as hand-lighting either of these with a lighter (or short/paper matches) is messy if you don't have quick reactions. one flame-broiled grannie, coming up!

-----
back to those "circulation pumps", those are only necessary for the CLOSED (heat) system, right? showers run off of the native pressure coming out of the city mains, no? so my OP stands -- i have full use of BOTH my stove and my shower, even if my power goes out.

no?

 

i think it happens quite a bit.

here in boston our first irene-related death was a guy who would went out on his porch yesterday and got friend from his OWN HANDRAIL.

worse yet, the guy was a UTLITIY WORKER!! (off duty) so it's not like he would have missed a GIANT WIRE draped over the rail or anything.

must have been on his roof or something and tracked down the siding. i guess.

i'm looking at handrails in a whole new light now....

 

Where is "Here"? if "Here" is Britain then yes they are, I used to work in an Ironmongers and sold thousands of them

I live in Canada now but am English born and bread and lived in Norfolk (which is ironically where I live now, just Ontario lol) until I was 27.

 

no, US.

it is possible the boxes say that, but i've just never noticed it. more likely they say "tapered candles" in all 3 countries, and "tapers" is just slang.

plus it just sounds british to me. like "starkers" -- a great word virtually unheard in the US!!

 

Aaaaaah, Norfolk. The English equivalent of The Hills Have Eyes.

Tapers? Everyone's heard of tapers.....
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tapirus_terrestris.jpg

 

Ah OK, now that makes more sense, I got the impression you were British.
There are many words you North American guys don't understand, if I want I can have a lot of fun watching people go cross eyed as I speak and I tell people "You ought to learn to talk proper English like what I do" :-D

@JOTS... I must admit, thats a new one lol I'm from the coast, we're best known for our crabs (the kind from the sea that you eat) , if you go inland to Norwich, they are also known for thier crabs.... but the other kind :-D

 

i have roots in HK and canookistan. so i'm british when i WANT to be.

 

This thread's 'tapered off'

Buh Buh Tssss!:-D

 

Right. Now I see. Norwich, the best in the.........west?

http://humboldtcrabs.com/

 

back to the topic, can i REALLY power my entire house off of my ringer current?!

 

:-D I thought this was a leadup to a Seinfeld style monologue.

 

u mean the monologues which everyone HATED, and which he mercifully dropped from the last couple seasons of his otherwise excellent show?

 

Of course not, there's not much more current than a doorchime takes. You expect to run anything useful off this?

 

Trouble is CatT. The ringers current power to the ringers power supply converter is 120V ac input to 12V Dc output.

To see if it works, you touch your toung to the 2 out-put terminals.

See? I have a sence of humor.

 

roflmao Don't try this at home folks!:-D

 

Especially if standing in a bowl of water.

 

locoaugie?! roflmao. I hope TimW doesn't see this!-D

 

whatchu talkin' bout, willises?! the input to the phone is 14v. there is no "converter" creating that out of any AC/120v source!

if it WERE a normal AC/120v, i wouldn't be tallking about inserting an INVERTER, now, would i?! i'd just plug the fridge STRAIGHT INTO the phone jack!

 

I had this idea a While back:-D There's hardly any voltage or current coming down the line until someone rings you then it spikes to operate the ringer. I believe it can spike up to around 100V depending on the country and network enough to give you a shock or at least enough to let you know electricity is there but not enough current to get any work done.

I've got a better one Connect an impeller to your cold water tap to run a generator to make electricity,if your water isn't metered like over here you should get enough juice to maybe power a laptop or something if the water pressure is high enough.

I wouldn't do it on the pure principle of wasting water.

 

That's a good sig Rikky.

 

I was thinking about a door bell when you mentioned "Ringer" . As in ring the door bell. They do use a transformer to convert A/C to lower voltage D/C.

For giggles. I tested the output power on my phone here. 52.5 V/DC steady power. Called my home from my cell, watched it still stay around 48-52V while ringing. No spike. Once I answered the home phone, the voltage dropped down to 8 V/DC and stayed there.


Most ppl won't remember. Older phones used a lit up dial pad when the phone was picked up. Only 2 wires are used for the actual phone connection. Why a 4 wire telly wire to the jack? The other 2 wires were connected to a 120v A/C to D/C output to light up the dial. Older design carried over to today.

You can put in a second phone line using the other 2 un-used wires. Same 4 wire cable to each phone connector. But you connect the un-used wires to the normal connectors @ the jack.

Test your phone line like I did on output power. One thing to keep in mind. Voltage is one thing. Amperage draw is another on what your trying to power up. Your phone line has probbally a miliamps output same as a a converter. Fractions of a full amp. Why you can touch your toung to it and won't hurt you.

Voltage is what something your trying to power up is designed for. Light bulbs come to mind. 120V, 12V, 240V, ect. Amperage is what the unit requires to run. And why it would't work.

I own British cars and the terminology is diffrent. Hood= top, spanner=wrench, ect.

Locoaugie? That was funny! When I took my Locomotive Engineers test. I had to trace electrical, relay use diagrams, air brake system, cooling, oil, diagrams. Back then, I was the mech on board to trouble shoot if probs. And explain how each system worked.

 

Oh. You're loco as in locomotive. I thought you were being self deprecating with a Mexican vibe. Sorry for the misinterpretation.
Sticking with locoaugie, though. :-D

 

No offence taken. Thought "Loco" was a good fit on a name. I am being self deprecating with a Mexican vibe that worked with what I do.

We are all a little "Loco" someway or another. Just diffrent degrees on how many bricks missing in the full load. Now if I can just find those missing bricks I've been looking for.

 

Very good. That's smarts. I also deprecate myself. No, sorry. That should be others. I deprecate others.....

Augie is missing a houseload of bricks. I know. His psychiatrist told me.
Your bricks are probably being used to hold up a car where the wheels have been nicked. In Mirabel. Quebec. Canada rolleyes

 

I felt my ears were burning. This thread has gone to the doggies.:-D:-D

 

roflmao

 

:neener

 

Umm, Augiedoggy? I ain't saying, trying not to, didn't want to mention this. Thinking hard. But had to. Canadian -> Loon? Seems we are on the same page eh? Loco-> Loon.

Sorry, I can't stop laughing. Forgive me. No offence to you. Just saw the connection. Chose your handle as I did? We are what we are. Apropros to you.

Wondering if TimW is going to change his name now? To TimWLoonLoco?

 

No offence taken. I like a good laugh, I chose my nick when I signed up and a couple of admins gave titles. loco augie is all TimW.:-D

 

Overheard conversation: "The Dark Ages were so called 'cos they didn't have electrickery."



So it's back to candles and clockwork radios, torches and mobile phone chargers...