Report: Air Force dumped remains of 274 troops in landfill

This is vile. I think I'm going to be sick. But the story needs spread.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...orce-dumped-remains-of-274-troops-in-landfill

 

I can't believe it, not yet anyways!

 

Who the heck is the money Nazi here? Heads are going to roll! Totally disgusting!

 

Hope this gets uncovered in its totality. It's difficult for me to even comprehend the heinous nature of of such a ongoing system.
What I don't understand is, why this has not fire-balled across the states and news media world over.

Cheers..

 

Abominable acts committed to soldiers that have died for their nation and in many cases, other people's nations :mad. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when a nation's war dead are thrown away like garbage - disgusting!
Why hurt the families of the war dead? Oh yeah, it's too expensive and too hard to get to the bottom of it - yeah riiight!rolleyes

 

Hmmm. Ya, I would have thought that too. I'm a CNN junkie and they still haven't yet mentioned it.

 

On Earth, the government officials who authorized and/or knew about this and did nothing need to be outed, fired and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Desecration of a corpse is a crime - multiply the charge by a few hundred bodies and these motherf:***rs should end up in a federal super max prison for the rest of their lives.

When they die, I suspect they'll end up in that special place in Hell reserved for the worst of the worst, with roommates including mass murders and child molesters.

 

I suspect that - given the shocking nature of this - other media outlets are vetting and fact checking the details of this as we speak.

Both MSNBC and The Washington Post are well respected news sources.

A similar thing happened with the Penn State University scandal involving football coach Jerry Sandusky raping underage boys. ESPN was the only major media outlet detailing the unspeakable acts for a few days. It wasn't until the firing of Sandusky, head coach Joe Paterno, the university president and a resulting riot on the Penn State campus that the story went viral.

 

Sad story indeed

 

90% of the problems in American society can be summed in those 15 words.

 

While a soldier who fell in battle still deserves better, it makes a certain amount of sense that remains that aren't claimed by anyone still have to be disposed of. For sanitation and public health reasons, if nothing else.

That said, you'd think that someone in the PR department would have pointed out that a landfill is a recipe for disaster. At the very least, consecrate a mass-grave or something.

And Laura, who care if your post is popular? It called for common sense and clear thought rather than the purely emotional over-reaction that the headline was aiming for, and took the approach that everyone of us should when faced with tabloid "reporting". Well done. :highfive

 

I have a few friends in different branches of the military and when I read this I thought of them and how disrespectful this would be to them.
@Mimsy-- Are they talking about the unclaimed remains? I didn't catch that if they were.

 

They are. Read the article Laura linked to. They are talking about cases where the family has signed forms saying "if you find them, don't bother telling us".

Money quote:

That's why I'm agreeing with Laura that the headline and sensationalism in the article linked to in OP is irresponsible. It goes for shock value, without caring the least for what the facts actually are.

 

Well, based upon that I'd have to agree.

 

Well, I suspected from the wording of the headlines and some of the article contents that they, (some aspects of the media), are aiming for the sensationalism and anger reactions. But even reading the 'sensationalized' article, I basically got from it that they were cremated human pieces and so forth.
Regardless of relatives wishes, this dose NOT alter the basic human dignity and human rights that it would be far more respectful, (not to mention politically effective rolleyes), to at least bury the remains in some sort of 'unknown soldier's' grave memorial. Would that be to much to ask for donating your services and your life?

(Don't mind me - just an old Vet. venting opinions):major

 

Sounds like a good workable plan to me Ghostie. A landfill just sounds horrible.

 

Oh, I completely agree. (I hope I remembered to put that in my post :confused)

My complaint with the first article is based on the fact half my degree is in journalistic writing, and there was next to nothing in that article that followed the journalistic principles to the point it would have been accepted as a minor assignment in my Journalism 101 classes. It's not objective, not factual, and it's scandalizing instead of reporting. F!

 

While I find (most of the) wars our government forces our young men and women into reprehensible, I respect our soldiers, and this act was despicable and downright evil . There was no profit motive, there was nothing to be gained by anyone for this. This is the pure face of evil and yes, those responsible should be burned at the stake .

 

Wow, evil? seriously? That is a bit harsh. It's very ill advised thing to do, definitely, but not malicious. In case you missed it, they only did this to unrecognizable or unclaimed body parts and while I have the utmost respect and admiration for our servicemen & women and believe they deserve everything available to them, what did you expect them to do?

One thing I don't entirely understand is why is it more respectable to cremate them and toss them in the ocean as opposed to a dump? Aren't they still being thrown away? I like Phantom's idea of burying them in a unknown solder grave. I don't know what it would take (cost, manpower) but they should do something like that.

Edit: Nobody forces anyone to join the military. People do it out of love, respect and a desire to protect. I know many, many service members and they are all truly noble and I have a deep, unabiding respect for their willingness to sacrifice, sometimes ultimately.

 

Genocides are evil. Molesting children is evil.

It bothers me whenever I see that word use to describe acts that are careless, senseless, or stupid. Evil is... evil. Using it for anything else devalues that word a bit.

 

Agreed. I read a news story a month or so ago, that my sister showed me, and it was most horrible story I ever read. This woman sold her 2 year old son to 2 men for drug money and they did incredibly horrendous acts to this poor boy. I sat and cried for at least 15 minutes after reading that. Those men were the epitome of evil. what THEY did was evil.

 

I'm an Air Force vet. I found this report to be very disturbing, and I quite agree with Phantom on this. I can't believe anyone found this practice acceptable. It would be simple to designate a piece of ground in Arlington or some other location for interring such remains; nor expensive at all to erect a simple monument explaining the purpose of the site.

 

You are missing a critical point. This were not just body parts, these were all that were left of people who had died a violent death in combat. Therefore these are not "body parts", these are war dead, and deserve respect.

The difference between hospital body parts and this is many of the patients are still alive, while the military version is that is all that is left of someones son, daughter, spouse.

I consider this a pretty significant difference. A grave for the remains of someone is not too much to ask, and a land fill is not a respectful final resting place.

 

This post bothered me a lot. Military folks put themselves in the line of fire so we don't have to, they frequently get second best in life, including income and living conditions. They are frequently looked down by their fellow citizens as second class. As an Air Force brat I got to see a lot of that in action. Your comment reminded me of those days strongly. In death they deserve our best, as they put themselves between us and those who wish to do us harm.

I support the unknown solder memorial myself.

You are probably young enough to have forgotten conscription. We don't practice it today, but it could come back in a heartbeat if needed. The idea of a volunteer military is relatively recent. By stepping forward they allowed you to choose your life path, think about it.

Burial at see is not a dump, nor is it dumping them. It is a practice for war dead dating when a trip at sea was measured in months or years. Ultimately it doesn't matter to them anymore, but it says a lot about the society how they handle this.

Since you have trouble understanding this, a dump is where you put refuse, things you no longer have any use for and have no value. I don't think this describes our people, does it?

 

Hi Bill.
I spent many years in the military and have seen at first hand the damage high explosive ordinance can do, i have also been in a team that had to try and find the remains of our fallen comrades where a lot of the time there are only small parts or limbs to return to our base.
Mostly we buried them with as much dignity and respect as we could but it was not feasible to repatriate the remains.
While i do not condone what the press have done to this story to sensationalize the headline i do realize there is a logistic problem that needs to be sorted.
I spent some time in the 70s with the 7th cavalry in the Ia Drang valley when there were many empty coffins sent home in order to give relative a visual object to grieve, so this has been going on for many years in some form or another.

 

I think that is a large part of the problem. You understand the logistical difficulties the military is facing in this situation, but most of us don't. We have no idea what condition the remains were in, or what particular difficulties arise when attempting to identify and transport them (and personally, I am grateful for that and happy to remain ignorant). Proper journalism in this situation would therefor be to report on these difficulties and explain them, so that the reader understands why these poor solutions were even considered in the first place.

And then to sternly question why consolidating all the remains into one single grave with a head stone saying "Never identified, never forgotten", or something suitably short and to the point, was either not considered a better solution, or not considered at all.

 

The sea has been considered a grave since the first ever fisherman was lost in a storm. However, there is a difference between someone being lost at sea and never recovered, and taking remains found elsewhere, burning them and then dumping them into the water the side.

Ships empty their garbage into the sea as well, so whether it's a grave or a garbage dump depends on interpretation.

 

I stand by my assertion that these actions were evil. This was a TOTALLY unacceptable way to handle the disposal of the remains of those who died in combat. You rally don't know the difference between dumping their remains in a garbage dump and an ocean ? REALLY ? I'm not trying to argue with you here, I'm just saying the act(s) were uncalled for and those responsible should be punished accordingly. The families of the deceased were lied to - how much pain and indignity have the families and loved ones suffered because of this ? How would you feel if (God forbid) one of you parents or loved ones' remains were tossed in a garbage dump as opposed to a proper, dignified disposal ?
Just sayin .

 

Honestly? I wouldn't really care, especially if I had already had a service and a gravesite for the majority of their body parts. Of course, I also don't believe in burial of bodies for a wide variety of reasons, so I'm sure my opinion will be suspect to some of you anyway.

But seriously...cremation instead of having to store unidentified body parts? OK with me. Putting ashes in a dump? Also OK with me. It's not as if they tossed a dumpster full of arms and legs into a dump, it was ashes.

Is it somehow worse than burying remains behind enemy lines? What about the body parts that were not able to be collected? Is the military as a whole also responsible for the treatment those parts get? I can assure you, the Taliban (or Al Queda, or whoever else we happen to be fighting) do not treat soldiers' body parts with dignity, nor do they hold a ceremony to bury them.

 

perhaps this is one thing that (supposedly) separates us from those animals.

I'm done with this topic .

 

Actually, recognizing that they are human beings just like us is what gives us the right to claim higher moral ground. It's always been that way. The moment we start thinking of our enemies the way they think of us (as animals who deserve to die just for being who they are), that's the moment we've lost.

We only get to think of ourselves as the good guys as long as we act the part, and that includes not lowering ourselves to their level.

 

This is my last post on this because I don't want to be a part of any "fights".

I don't think any of us really have the right to pass judgement on this group of people without knowing ALL of the details or logistics of what is actually taking place unless anyone here is directly involved with this. We have NO idea what choices or decisions these people are faced with. As BillMCC stated there is a lot of things that happen in these instances that, those not in the military, aren't aware about. So maybe we can hold judgement on a group of people we usually call heroes until we know ALL the details.

 

That about sums it up.

 

It is standard practice in the US Military to portray and to think of your enemies as less than human, which, in theory, makes it easier to kill them without remorse . Admittedly I have never been in the military, but know plenty of folks that have been, including my own Father, who was a WW2 Veteran .

(I know I said I was finished with this thread, but I can't believe that some people here think it's perfectly okay to dump the remains of fallen soldiers in garbage dumps) in which case, why bother cremating them ? Why just just throw them in dumpsters ? Whats the difference ?
Why shouldn't these remains be treated with less dignity than those in the tombs of the unknown soldiers ?
Endlessly celebrated by politicians and the media as heroes, US soldiers are in reality nothing more than cannon fodder in neo-colonial wars waged against hostile populations. Once killed, in the estimation of the richest military in the world, these “heroes” are not even worthy of a dignified burial.

 

I served in HM Royal Marines (British Commando's) and worked alongside US servicemen in both hostile and training environments but at no time did i hear that the enemy referred to as sub human, The Viet Cong were nicknamed "Charley" which is neither derogatory or sub human,
Servicemen were told to respect their enemy if for no other reason than when you think you are better than them it is very easy to get caught out and unlike a computer game the consequences are dire.

These are not bodies but body parts, that can be anything from a finger to an arm or leg, the biggest problem facing the military is that in hot climates such as Afghanistan or Iraq these body parts deteriorate very quickly (hence the reason in these hot countries to bury the dead in 24 hours) so the best solution is to cremate the remains as to repatriate the remains would need air tight containers to stop the spread of viruses.

The families of the dead soldiers have in most cases buried a coffin (be it empty or with body parts) and need closure for having lost a loved one they have also signed off the documentation so if we were to come and knock on the door 3 weeks later and say "we have found the hand/arm or foot of your son/father" do you think that would be of any consolation to the bereaved ?
This has only caused such a commotion because the press have discovered it has happened and have found a way to increase their circulation so does that make them any more honorable than the military personnel who disposed of the body parts in first place.

As i said in my first post "this is purely a logistics problem" and not meant to disrespect the fallen men who served their country.

 

Very well. You folks are free to think it's fine to desecrate the remains of those who died in battle for whatever reasons the government wanted. I have to disagree. When their families were told that their remains would be disposed of in a dignified manner, I suppose throwing their remains in a landfill is dignified in your minds. I am now unsubscribing from this thread. I hold nothing against any of you, I simply disagree on this issue.
Have a good day, all .

 

It's just not logistics Bill, as they have that solved already, what would it take to ship the ashes home, or at least to Arlington? It's policy taking over better sense IMO, these are people who take orders very well. Phantom said it best, 'Unknown Soldier'.

 

I understand everyone's reticence to accept the way this has been handled by all those concerned and i have been very reluctant to use the phrase "they are only obeying orders" but that is what it amounts to because someone in authority gave orders for this to happen, but it is not an excuse.

 

For those who have not served in the military the phrase "blind allegiance" is relative.
I have seen at first hand in San Diego the way US marines were trained to obey without question the orders of those in command, the "grunt will obey without hesitation, that is the discipline that is needed to create a good fighting force.
Could anyone imagine a sergeant telling a soldier to take out an enemy target and having his orders questioned, it aint gonna happen.
A sergeant is always able to question a junior officer because he has experience but he can not defy that order.

 

Well I was avoiding this thread due to it's see-saw debate, both sides make compelling arguments and the opinion I have arrived at is this.
Having never served in the Forces I can't say I understand the in's and out's of this type of situation, but I can understand the inherent problems that lay in this type of situation if you take out the humanity of the situation and look at it from a POV of a problem that needs solving.
It's one of those things where we all want what is Morrally correct in our eyes, unfortunately this is not always practical, it's like the "Never Leave a man Behind" idea, which is very noble and a wonderful idea but it has also cost the lives of many.
Same principle as lifeguards, we were trained to enter situations 1 at a time, 2 of you rushing in to help could ultimately leave 3 people needing help instead of 1.
Ideas and situations like this are not nice to think about, but in war.... what is nice?

So, I believe that the landfill dumping is not good, as Phantom said it should be some form of marked grave.
The argument of "Dumping" in landfill or at sea is a double edge too, we accept the burial at sea because it has always been an accepted practice but realistically speaking the priciple is no different. The sea is just as if not more full of waste and toxins and all kinds of crap, the remains get dropped off a boat and washed around and eaten by sea life, it just seems a bit more glorious (this is comming from a sea dog (ex crab fisherman and lifeguard) who understands the Burial at sea all too well)

At this point I have to agree with Laura, the media has painted this picture with a darker cloud than it needed. While a disturbing thing is to lump it all together with general crap is a crappy thing to do to fallen men/women, but it is waste.

I'm assuming any parts/bodies that were identified had a ceremony for the respect of the fallen and families.... what to do with the rest?
Not a landfill just because it's a landfill... as I said, Phantoms marked grave would be a better idea.

So in closing the people responsible for this act had money in mind which is disgusting.... but the media has made it out to be some sort of evil plot. The headline suggests unknown soldiers just being dumped in a landfill, from what I gather... this is not the case.
Basically I agree with parts of both sides of the argument.

 

I wonder what airline corps do after an accident? There's more of a monetary incentive there.

 

And how high do you go ? the chain of command is very long and in the case of the US it stops at the president, or do you keep going until you get an answer that suits??

 

In all honesty I'm not understanding where the argument is coming from.
It is my understanding that the whole reason for the chain of command is to create a unit that works as a unit, whether this be in military or work environment.
I once had a WW2 vet explain to me when I was about 15y/o when explaining to him that I wouldn't go into the Army because people shouting at me annoy me and I would argue (and then probably get my arse kicked lol). He explained that the reason a sergeant will shout at you is to make sure you understand what he wants , when he wants without having to explain or repeat.
If a Sergeant barks "Flank Left" to a soldier and that soldier thinks it's a bad idea and then starts to argue or dispute the order... it's perfectly likely that people will die because of the hesitation.
As Bill said, if you disagree with an order do you write a letter of complaint and have it sealed, signed, delivered, lost, then found, appealed, sent back, re-appealed, sent out again, reviewed and then decided? ... by which time the war has been lost.
If grunts can dispute a sergeants order in the field then what is the point of the chain of command?
We may as well just give a bunch of guys some guns and tell them to run that way and kill anyone they don't know.... they will most likely end up killing each other after arguing which is the best way to do it.

Admittedly the orders given are not always effective and often cost lives unnecessarily , but more often than not it is the most effective option.
But more lives are lost if the chain of command breaks down, hence the notion of assassinating the "Leader" ASAP.

 

Ah, I picked up the wrong end of your post, misread. I agree that a situation that has no real urgency can and should be questioned if there is a decent presence of opposition.

 

You know what's funny? If a soldier's finger or foot or arm is removed in a hospital, it is incinerated and put out with the medical waste (aka garbage). They don't bury it or hold a ceremony for it, just like they don't anyone else's.

Seriously, people. We're not talking about whole bodies. We're talking about unidentifiable parts (fingers, etc.) or if they are identified, they come from bodies of soldiers whose families have already said they do not wish to be notified if any more remains are found. They're not dumping a truck load of torsos into a landfill, they're dumping ashes.

Granted, they could probably do the mass grave thing instead, but then people would find something horribly wrong with that as well. The media (and people's knee-jerk reactions to it) have blown this WAY out of proportion.

Out of curiosity, I asked the guy I've been dating about this. He's been home less than a year from his second tour in Iraq, and will be going to Afghanistan next year. He said it's standard practice, virtually no one there has an issue with it, and he doesn't get what all the hoopla is about. Of course, that's only one soldier's opinion, do with it what you may.