Well, I Gave Windows 8 Another Shot...Then I Actually Shot It.

This is a follow up to http://forums.majorgeeks.com/showthread.php?t=259678. This post is much more civil and less rage fueled.

I've been running RTM Windows 8 Pro (legit) since the day it released, and decided today to go back to Windows 7 Ultimate.

I gave it a good run for its money and came to the conclusion that there is no motivation to update.

User Interface
I'll start with the interface. I still feel that it has a serious identify crisis. I found myself removing almost all live tiles and making my own groups of shortcuts for my most often used programs. This made it pretty functional for me, and that's all I can really say about that, because I found myself supplementing my user experience with keyboard shortcuts. At first, I felt pretty good about it, because it cured a lot of my complaints about moving around in Windows 8. Then I came to a horrible realization. These keyboard shortcuts were needed to get the same amount of functionality and speed as Windows 7. All I had accomplished was creating myself more work to do what I was doing before.

The few live tiles I kept, I used. I kept Mail and...rowi for twitter. Those were the only ones I could really find that were useful. I left my social events in Metro, ahem, Modern UI, and all of my coding work for the desktop. This worked pretty well until I realized just how much time I was wasting going from one full screen interface, back to start, back to desktop. Or, I could just use winkey+D, but there was still the extra step of leaving my already being used workspace, aka the desktop. In Windows 7, I would have merely opened Outlook and left it running and never have to avert my attention from my current work. I know the metro mail is a basic client, but if I can't find a use for metro apps, then there isn't a lot of argument for them.

I used winkey+x to get to a lot of places that were normally hard to access in Windows 8. However, it wasn't any faster than how I did it in Windows 7. Any type of search in Windows 7, I would go to the start orb and start typing. On Windows 8, I had to exit the desktop, and go to the modern interface to do the same. More steps to perform the same job.

Access to Settings
I can appreciate that the OS uses a unified settings function on the charm bar for modern apps and the OS, but it is terribly disjointed. I have control panel from the desktop (or the all apps menu), Settings on the charm bar for metro/modern apps, and then I have PC Settings on the charm bar. Why does it need to be so disorganized? Heaven forbid you want easy access to Windows Update. Now I know I could just type and search would pull the stuff up, but it does that in Windows 7 already.

Running apps/sidebar
You know, I get that Modern apps do not use any resources when not in the foreground, but I would still like to close them. They still run, and they still monitor in the background, which isn't laptop friendly. I am aware I can change this behavior, but I can get the same functionality AND shut apps down in Windows 7. I am aware that I could alt-F4 them, but I don't have to in Windows 7. The location of the running apps bar irks me too every time I invoke it on accident when working with desktop apps. Don't even get me going about there being TWO task switchers, one for desktop and one for metro and desktop (winkey+tab, vs. alt+tab).

Performance
Performance is good. Really good. For certain hardware, I see a large boon with running Windows 8. Not so much for me (this is a laptop):
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Ub_58xq--9k/UC5zjBdGFFI/AAAAAAAAAoA/IC82C0BrdGk/s495/specs.PNG

I boot Windows 7 in 10 seconds. I boot Windows 8 in 7. I guess its a large difference, but its the difference between me blinking a couple times. OS performance was the same for me.

Advertisements in Applications
Yeah, this doesn't sit well for me. Either make your apps ad-free, or charge for them. Do not insult my senses with ads on my workstation.


Well, thats it for now. The bottom line is, its a decent OS, but it contains no incentive for upgrading at all.

 

Thanks for the "heads up"!

 

This dude I know has this as his sig, which is why I won't run 8 either

 

Adry, do you need assistance in actually shooting said OS? :-D

 

Certainly. Bring the birdshot!

:-D

I wanted to like it, I really did. I even lied to myself, telling (myself) that I LOVED it. Especially since I have a great idea for a Metr..erm, Modern app. I figure I will add it to my portfolio once I get to my .net classes.

 

Birdshot? Sir, to penetrate to the FBI levels, we will need 00 buckshot. :-D:-D

I am adapting to Win 7, still running XP at home and some work computers.

 

I've become very accustomed to clicking the orb and typing what I need. it pulls it up almost instantly. I don't think XP did that, but its a good OS for what it is. Ugly, but good. I like glass and aero.

 

I reject the ORB... Well, like I know what that is. :-D

 

Unlike Windows 8, you would figure it out completely in about 20 seconds.

Familiarity keeps people using your OSes. Confusion drives them away.

Windows 8 is for the non-poweruser, yet the interface requires a poweruser with keyboard shortcuts (or a touch screen) to be even remotely as efficient as Windows 7. If your OS interface requires a geek to use it effectively, then you done failed. Linux is the same way, but it is excusable because its not meant to be a mainstream OS, although its making strides. Oh, and it is free.

 

Looking at the default "Metro", it is loaded with things designed to make mo' money for Microsoft - music, travel, etc.

I suspect that, within six months, every company that currently has an iPad or Google app will launch a "Metro" app to jockey for the prime start-up screen real estate in Windows 8.

I suspect noobs will be confused as hell trying to find the "desktop" box. No worries, though. If given Metro icons for Facebook, OooVoo and instant messaging, half the customers who visit my shop will forget that the desktop even exists within a few weeks. :-D

 

So true.. :-D
and I also agree that the previous versions of Windows are suited more for power users.

I think Microsoft is realizing technology is moving from Desktops and laptops to Cell phones and Ipads.

I imagine if you are really fond of iOS and Android platforms, you are going to love Windows 8.

 

I gave it 6 weeks and as Adryn says it does not give a justifiable reason to upgrade.
As with the step from XP to vista was a loser i feel that win7 to win 8 will also fail for us die-hard PC users but it will appeal to the Ipad and android users.

 

Ahh, cause it is the newest OS from Windows. It will be sold on new PC's, not just tablets and phones. If it is made for tablets and such, why even put it on a PC?

 

Vista was a total disaster that was rushed out to the users without being fully ready,it had more bugs than a homeless dog and was never fit for purpose (you only need to remember how many updates you had daily)
I had so many clients asking me to uninstall it and put XP on their PCs it was unbelievable.

Windows 8 is great if you have a touch screen but how many of us need one??

 

Simple, because it is being touted as the next OS from 7, if it wasn't truly designed for "productivity" why is it even being offered for PC? I remember reading somewhere quite a while back, a tester made the comment "why would I want to run an OS on my PC that's designed to run on a phone too?"

 

99% of tablets out there are ARM based. Windows RT will be for them and will be shipped with those devices, so no most people haven't tried a tablet. It still doesn't justify the OS for desktop. On top of that, most real desktops aren't touchscreens either.

Side note: I didn't say it was bad. I said it had an identity crisis and while a decent OS, offers no incentive to upgrade. Ads in your OS? I am sure thats not a welcome feature on tablets either.

 

Did you even read what I posted?

If offers no utility above Windows 7 for desktop users. Microsoft could have easily tweaked Modern for desktops and left out the touch nonsense, and left it for Windows RT which is ONLY for tablets. Or they could have left a CHOICE and made it a feature under windows features to enable or disable. Windows 8 would have been fine using desktop only and not Modern for traditional PCs. Besides, you wouldn't buy Windows 8 for two devices, because tablets, being mostly ARM based, do not use a version you can buy. It comes with it. OEM only friend. You won't be buying a tablet and installing that version of Windows 8 on your desktop. Even if you COULD (those rare x86 tabs), you violate the EULA. Nothing changes from Windows 7, in that respect. You can't take your OS disk (legally) and install it on your desktop when the laptop breaks. I know this is still a family friendly, wholesome, pirate-free website. Right?????

So what exactly do you find useful for desktop users in it, not present in Windows 7?

Also, I think the correct statement would be:

"I want Microsoft to make an OS, for the most common computers out there: Laptops and PCs." Why should equipment that is far in the minority (tablets and touchscreens) rule the roost for devices that are far more common?

 

I am more satisfied with W7 (Ultimate) than I have ever been with any previous version, period and I've run them all. I couldn't get rid of Vista fast enough, ME wasn't any better. Been an IT Pro for over a decade now, you want things to be relatively easy for users to navigate and be productive in a work environment. Tweaking a W7 to be readily adaptable for users at a workplace is pretty dang simple if they were used to XP (or forbid, Vista). I always look at any Win version in a work scenario, so I may have a completely different mindset than the average user.

 

Microsoft have a near monopoly market and many PCs are delivered with Microsoft software installed so it is a captive audience.
They sent vista out without fully completing the development so it was always updating and when they produced Win 7 they did their homework first so it was ready to run correctly.
With win 8 they are catering to the android market but making it run on a PC as well which is just an afterthought and will no doubt revise their strategy when sales suffer in the PC market.
Newbies will buy it but i doubt that many experienced users will put it on a PC.
I build custom PCs and will not put it on one of my builds unless the purchaser asks for it.

 

Agreed. Vista wasn't that bad though, once you realized the source of its problems (another discussion for another thread). I spent most of my time in Windows 8 setting up things to make it as productive as Windows 7 for me. "As" productive. Not more productive. So why upgrade where I don't have to do a song and dance to stay productive?

 

Actually, if Windows 7 faced the obstacles that Vista did, it would have been equally fail. Vista was done, although it had some performance issues. The largest issue was that the manufacturers were morons and didn't bring out correct drivers supporting the new WDM format until MONTHS after its release. Despite Microsoft warning them ~ 6 months ahead of time. Microsoft took a lot of heat for sheer laziness of 3rd party hardware companies.

 

Yes, they are the majority, especially in the workplace. That may well change, but not overnight.

 

You're not considering the workforce (companies). In most all med. to large cos., there's a computer/laptop at almost every desk, alot of people even have both issued to them. I doubt you can say that about a "neighborhood" so to speak. I still say business use is the majority of users when it comes to Windows. These are all used for productivity, most large cos. have "social media" sites blocked as well, some even block the use of personal email on their systems. Then you look at all the people that use these systems at work, if they have to do work over the weekend or at night, what type of system do you think they're using?

 

All the hospitals here in Belgium still use XP because they are all linked to a central system that has all our medical records so that we can visit any hospital or doctor in Belgium and they can access all our records instantly so they are not going to change any time soon because the cost would be prohibitive.
The only new technology they have are for specific tasks such as scans,X-rays or procedures that will not run on XP.

Most of the doctors have tablets for personal use because it is most convenient for them to add notes on the run.

 

Aren't you a little narrow-minded to think that computers aren't tools and work must also be done on them? Try coding on a tablet or touch interface and get back to me.

Here is how the average user will be greeted by Windows 8:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxmIsv88xO4


Here is how system admins will react to it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4VtNLl6Ca4&feature=related

Kids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIq_wl-KBjk&feature=related


Etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0fsyb-ttcw

 

Check the marketshare. Very few companies produce x86 tablets, and fewer yet have them as a big seller.

 

Correct. Its fluff that gets in the way. Being that the interface is one of the most important areas of an OS, I'd say thats a pretty big deal. Sure you can get used to it. I did. It works fine. But lets face it, it takes me longer to get anything done in Windows 8, than it does Windows 7.

Why complicate life? This is a case of (questionable) form over functionality.

 

Once again, let me reiterate:

My stance is not that it is a bad OS. My stance is that it is a forgettable OS that does not offer incentives or reasons to upgrade from Windows 7. Productivity takes a step backward.

I feel my review was quite fair. Heck, I didn't even mention bugs or annoyances when installing programs.

Will I go back to it at any point? Yeah, I might. I have Acronis images for Windows 7 and 8 and it takes all of 6 minutes to switch.

 

That is flat out UNTRUE! ESPECIALLY at Lg. Cos.!!! You have ANY clue what kind of compatibility issues are run into on a new OS?!?!?!? EVERY place I have worked will get copies of a new OS before even contemplating upgrading! They are then run in a test environment to make sure it is compatible with all the software the co. might use as well as their server based software run in virtual systems (Citrix is a VERY common one). Not only that, there are some cos. that had or made software exclusively for themselves that no one else has even seen or heard of. Compatibility is probably the 1st concern of a co. upgrading OS's before they even consider the cost of it.

 

My wife is an average user and she was FURIOUS when I put Windows 8 on the desktop and made me return it to Windows 7. This isn't just an issue for powerusers. I am not sure why you fail to see that. Those videos aren't power users, for the most part, and they are having a terrible time with 8. This is why I don't really think you read my original responses, because I said you needed to be a poweruser to make the OS work for you. Not that you need to be a normal consumer for Windows 8 to work for you.

I get that you don't think the user interface is important. However, thats what people see first, and that is what they base a lot of their responses on. Yeah, powerusers can skip it, but you know the people who are making the most noise about disliking Windows 8? It isn't power users. But hey, if they don't like it, they don't need to upgrade. Unless..they buy a new computer. Ruh roh!

I could go on to mention tht Windows 8 includes downgrade rights to 7. Woot! Unless its an OEM, LOL, which is how most computers are bought and how Windows 8 will be mostly distributed.

If the general consensus is that if you don't like it, don't upgrade, and thats how the general population feels about it, that's the definition of a failed product. You can have the most awesome OS in the world but if nobody wants to use it, you failed. We have been hearing for the last decade about how tablets and touch devices will be revolutionary for the computing industry, and yet, here we are with VERY limited usefulness for touch in businesses (I see them mostly in medical fields) and the rest are just a bunch of toys. Real usage is in the form of netbooks, desktops, and laptops, by far. As I said before, Microsoft could have built Windows 8 to have the Modern interface as optional feature to enable/disable and included some manner of orb or start button and all of these issues would be taken care of. Very simple.

Remember this post?

http://forums.majorgeeks.com/showpost.php?p=1765886&postcount=9

Needing the skills of powerusers, yet not being for powerusers...if that isn't an identity crisis, I don't know what is.

Can I ask you something? Have you actually used Windows 8 for any amount of time?

 

Except that, its not a familiar OS for anyone, much less everyone.

Apple did it in stages and even now, the interface is still very similar to what it started out as before the iPad and isn't disjointed like 8's desktop and Modern UI. Microsoft jumped the gun and went beginning > end. No transition at all. That is not how you introduce things. That is how you alienate users.

If by one group is making noise, you mean everyone, then yea you are right and they should just skip it. Which is what my original post said, LOL. There are very few positive articles out there. Guess who is swayed the most by blogs? Average users.

 

I already know Adry is slightly ahead of me tech-wise (definitely programming wise). That being said, people that use windows PC's every day at work are not really your "average" user, much like Adry and myself. Oh...and guess what, when those compatibility issues are fixed (and they will be) alot of cos. will be upgrading OS's as well. Why, because they need to be compatible with newer software versions they need to run for their business which probably won't be compatible with XP. I don't think you've ever worked in a corp. environment as a tech person or you'd know all this. Having supported as many as 500+ people at once before I've "been in the trenches", as has Adry (not sure how many people he supported though.

I think this is kinda like the gun thread in alot of ways, you just enjoy "stirring the pot" just to get a rise out of people. With no real tech background, how can you truly judge or comment on what I'm saying? Do you consider yourself an "average" user? I don't know many "average" people that do that extensive use of your "artwork" software you use, I surely wouldn't have a clue, but I'll also bet if you were thrown into a corporate work environment you would be pretty lost doing even some "common" tasks. (Go program an HP commercial printer with a static IP and then map everyone to it in a domain environment, Oh, and don't forget to install the right drivers to those programs that run in Citrix. Oh WAIT, are the right drivers already loaded on the Citrix server?)

People that work on PC's every day to make a paycheck are what I consider the "average user". Have a nice day.

 

I appreciate we have choices. However, do you really think Microsoft brought it out to lose money on it? They want you to upgrade. They didn't just put it out there ' in case' people want to use it. When an average user buys a new computer, they will be forced to upgrade to 8. When Windows 8 only software comes out, people will be limited that didn't upgrade, and while that's a good long ways away, it can and will happen.

For every one review you find calling it a good OS and not noting its considerable downsides, I can show you 10 articles saying the opposite. Even Vista had its supporters.

This whole, 'we want users to be familiar across all fronts' is failed logic. Most used smartphone today is the iPhone. No familiarity to 8. Most used mobile OS is Android. No familiarity to 8. Next comes the teeny-tiny marketshare of Windows Phone. Sorry, but Windows 8 is not going to be what switches people from iOS or Android on their tablets and smartphones. Can this change? Sure...in several YEARS.

 

I had to quote that for emphasis.

 

It would help if you started answering some questions about HOW Windows 8 is going to trump Windows 7 or be better for consumers, rather than regurgitate Microsoft marketing.

We already know the 'familiar interface' defense will apply to all 5 of the Windows Phone users out there and that is it. Anything tangible you can add to counter my view? Or the view of my wife, an average user?

 

Windows "meal ticket" is the Corp. world, plain and simple, they need it to play as nice as possible so it makes Cos. $$$$. You obviously don't see the importance of "productivity" in a work environment for it be be easy to use and "play nice" with other software. Basically this is what Adry has been trying to say and it's most of what you read in reviews as well.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

No, it's not, you just have no clue how many PC's are in use in Cos. compared to subdivisions

 

No more skewed than your outlook on all of this. Radical change doesn't get back marketshare. Look at Windows Phone, which was radical change. Apple is not worried in the least, and Google is laughing all the way to the bank. Windows 8 is not going to win back marketshare.

Man, I wish Bill Gates was still at the helm. MS has made so many poor decisions with Ballmer at the wheel.

 

When I worked for MS, we treated business customers like royalty, because that is where a lot of money comes from. Losing the interest of businesses is bad.

 

So is that a no, you do not have any tangible things that can change my opinion or make me doubt my stance?

That is too bad, because I would switch back to Windows 8 and give it another shot if I could find a viable reason to.

I value discussion, not marketing regurgitation.

 

I must have missed those things (getting old). Can you tell me what I missed, that was a tangible benefit? Lets keep it to:

Desktops and laptops, hence this discussion is about them.
No marketing gibberish MS is spreading around.

Please tell me. I have a windows 8 image here. I've no whims about giving it another shot.

 

Ah, I said you lose productivity, not stop productivity. Big difference. If I have to take additional steps to get the same things done as before, is that not the definition of losing productivity? It certainly isn't increasing my productivity, because I am futzing around with the OS instead of doing my job.

Point taken, but most sales of Windows 8 will be on new machines, making that point invalid. Old XP hardware often times does not have WDM compatible drivers unless Microsoft has them stashed somewhere.

Bill Gates said that 10 years ago. We are still waiting.

No, it was an opinion. One that has shown to be true for them in the past, so its not exactly an uneducated opinion.

 

Work is not game. Nor is it not a hobby, so..no. I take my life seriously. Looking out the window doesn't make my mouse clicks, keyboard shortcuts, or additional steps to get something done any faster. At any rate, I doubt other users have to use less keystrokes, mouse clicks than I do to get the same things done. So yes, it affects them too. They will notice it more once CTS and RSI shows up.

I guess you missed the memo that has Windows 8 enforcing driver signatures. Not signed? It don't load. Unless you disable driver signing enforcement, which is for one boot. OR you force it into test mode, which lowers OS security and puts a lame watermark on your computer.

Oh I have touch devices. I use a Galaxy Nexus with Android 4.1.1 on it. I have a Nexus 7 tablet, with Android 4.1.1 on it. I am aware of their capabilities, including their shortcomes:

1. Can't compile software.
2. Can't type up a true report on them.
3. Can't code on them.
4. Can't write websites on them.
5. Can't do serious gaming on them without resorting to a non-touch interface/device. derp.
6. Can't do a real presentation on them.
7. Cannot really manage databases on them.
8. Can't upgrade them.
9. Cannot multitask to the degree a PC can.
10. Cannot install different OSes or dual boot ( with a couple exceptions).

Laptops and desktops still reign for heavy lifting. Tablets have their places. Ereaders. Casual gaming. Web browsing. Minor note-taking. They are toys.


Side note: I found a neat Windows 8 feature in that you can sideline a metro app while on the desktop. It kind of works ok. But with me being on a 1920x1080 laptop, I am ok with just using split screen between apps as it is more flexible.

 

Yes I did, but they are selling Windows 8 Enterprise as well. I am sorry but that is a workstation OS. It has these same shortcomings. Poor foresight by MS.

Well, good luck finding a person with an x86 tablet I am sure there is one of them...somewhere. There is a reason nobody has replied to your request. By the way, I have been civil in this thread, so show a little respect in return. I don't mind, but don't be rude. You are better than that.

I didn't fall for any marketing. I don't read marketing nonsense, and I don't watch commercials. I gave the perspective of the OS and how it fares with productivity.

 

I am sorry. Did you want me to fish up some magical tablet and try it for you? Why would I respond about experiences I can't have, due to not having an x86 tablet? Now you are just trolling.

I found it rude because you insinuated I am stifling opinions. I think anyone else reading that would have come to the same conclusion. You need to cut it out with the "position I have" nonsense, because I have done nothing to disrespect the position or anyone else.

And no, I did not give it a test I thought it would fail. I thought it would grow on me and gave it a true earnest chance to do so. When it did not, I reported my findings. That is not giving it a test I knew it would fail.

 

One thing I know about Adry, he likes to make things "work", if they don't, he can usually find a way around them, BUT that is very time consuming (which is counter-productive BTW) Gloozit, you obviously haven't been "immersed" in the same environments as us, it is apparent from your retorts, you're not understanding what's he's saying to you evidently. I don't fault you or blame you for your opinion, but what you're trying to ask doesn't really apply here. 8 is being touted as the "new" Windows, it may be nice on something that it was designed for , but other than that it just doesn't cut it. It is what it is.

 

Hopefully someone with an x86 tablet will happen along that has tried Windows 8 for gloozit to get input. I've seen one person with one in all my w8 discussions across different boards.

 

WOW!!!

"You have eyes, yet you cannot see, You can listen, but you cannot hear"

 

here is a snip from amazon I just did searching for a tablet with W8 on it

 

Are you serious?

Here is the reason I didn't post the info:

1. It is a private message board. Private. You cannot view it.
2. Privacy. I do not know the poster, and do not have permission to post his information publicly.
3. Credibility. It isn't my opinion, it was his. You would just say I made it up, unless of course, it was favorable to you.
4. Responses. The guy doesn't post here and therefore cannot answer your questions.

 

If you can't see it, then you are truly trolling as was suspected. Thanks for ruining my thread.

I'll talk to a moderator to close it and maybe I will be nice and not tell them you are a former banned member.