Is It The Law Or Lack Of Know How Preventing Uncle Sam From Unlocking The Terrorist's Apple Iphone?

What's the deal? Why can't Uncle Sam unlock the iPhone that's making the news now? Surely with all the hackers around there's gotta be somebody who can do the trick. Or could the problem be the whole legality of hacking it in the first place? From what I see below, it's even more confusing as to what is preventing the FBI from unlocking the terrorist's phone.

 

I suggest you read closely EXACTLY what the FBI asked for. Don't take a shortcut, get the wording. Then judge for yourself.
IMHO they want something any idiot can use. This would be disastrous once out in the wild.

 

I believe the difference this time is that after a set number of password guesses all data on the phone is automatically obliterated. Other phones have been hacked by brute force but if they try this method on this phone then they will probably lose all chance of recovering any information.

George Orwell had a lot of insight about life in the future when in 1949 he published the book Nineteen Eighty Four

 

Here's an interesting report from 2 years ago.
http://businesstech.co.za/news/mobile/53485/too-many-ifs-to-crack-pistorius-iphone-expert/

 

The phone in question is the property of San Bernardino County. Payed for and supplied for use by a government entity. My friends 4 retailed for 650 dollars, 250 dollars with a two year cellular contract. Civil service must still be a sweet gig in California. After Apple gets the info from that phone the flood gates will open, again. Really to much BS going around to comment on the case but it will be interesting to see where everything lands. I got rid of my cell about three years ago, never owned a "smart" phone. If we are acquainted we can be in touch.

 

The FBI asked them to create software so they can brute force the phone without losing any data (because after 10 incorrect tries, the phone wipes itself). The FBI stated they only want it for only this phone and are willing to have it unlocked at Apple and will allow Apple to destroy the program (if Apple wants to) once the crack is completed. Normally, I'd agree with Apple but I think this is a reasonable request. It is a government phone after all.

 

"The FBI asked them to create software so they can brute force the phone without losing any data (because after 10 incorrect tries, the phone wipes itself). The FBI stated they only want it for only this phone and are willing to have it unlocked at Apple and will allow Apple to destroy the program (if Apple wants to) once the crack is completed. Normally, I'd agree with Apple but I think this is a reasonable request. It is a government phone after all."

If they are simply asking, Apple can just say no. If they are forcing them to make something, are they compensating Apple? And they will let Apple 'destroy' their creation if they want?

Honestly, I am on the fence on this one. I can see them possibly using the info on the phone to fight crime, and also see why Apple does not want to do it.

This may set an important precedent for 'digital security' for the average citizen.

Interesting stuff.

 

If I was Apple in this case, and considered that unlocking this phone could help uncover more terrorist activity and possibly save more lives, I'd be more than happy to make an exception to company policy and help the FBI unlock the iPhone. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple loses would be customers in this case, because of their policy. In my case it doesn't inspire me to buy an iPhone.

 

A person's right to life, far outweighs a person's (terrorist or not) right to privacy.

I wonder what Microsoft's stance would have been if the murderer had a Windows phone? Now that Windows 10 has been dubbed 'snoopy'.

 

True, what those terrorists did was so cold and inhumane, it's hard to believe Apple is more concerned about privacy issues than anything else.

 

You have to look at the bigger picture. Apple certainly isn't viewing this as simply cracking open ONE phone. They're looking at it as, "Once we do it once, who's to say we won't be asked to do it again. And again. And over and over so many times that it becomes commonplace, and everyone's security is compromised."

I get it, I do. If you look at just this one situation, then it only makes sense for Apple to just do what the FBI wants. I don't think there are a lot of people who disagree. But the thing is, why should they compromise the security of 100,000 people because one person did something wrong? It's all fine and good to say they can destroy the software after it's used once, but we all live in the real world where we know that isn't going to happen. And even if it does, everyone, including those with criminal intents, will know that it CAN be done. And then no one's phone will ever be secure again.

 

Apple can keep the software in a secure place. And only use it when the CIA, NSA, FBI, and other international security organisations need to extract the data from an iPhone. Those organisations need to take the phone to Apple's headquarters and then the data could be recovered and handed over.

It's a sad irony... the people who will defend/make excuses for Apple, are the same people who will tell you "When you are on the internet you have no privacy." Privacy and security go hand in hand.

BTW If you want to see what's on my phone, visit and I'll happily give you my phone to look at everything. Strangely enough, when someone hasn't done something wrong, they don't want to do that.

 

DVDs were designed to be impossible to copy, and look how long that lasted. I understand Apple's concerns - once they create the software it can and most likely will get out in the wild. There are organisations far less law abiding than the FBI who would stop at nothing to get their hands on a tool like this. this is the same reasoning that is behind the large storage drive manufacturers' refusal to design a "back door" for law enforcement, in case they ever need to recover the data from a criminal's hard drive. Because once it's there, anyone can use it.

 

"I get it, I do. If you look at just this one situation, then it only makes sense for Apple to just do what the FBI wants. I don't think there are a lot of people who disagree. But the thing is, why should they compromise the security of 100,000 people because one person did something wrong? It's all fine and good to say they can destroy the software after it's used once, but we all live in the real world where we know that isn't going to happen. And even if it does, everyone, including those with criminal intents, will know that it CAN be done. And then no one's phone will ever be secure again."

I agree with this. In some cases, freedom and rights may be more important than 'safety'. Not trying to get HBT.

 

Don't you think someone at Apple may already have the software to doing this?

 

That's great! I don't have anything on my phone that someone can't see, either. The thing is, though, I am not comfortable with there being a way to get at my information without my knowledge. Even you said to visit and you'd show us, not that you'd be OK with anyone who gets their hands on the software accessing your phone when you know nothing about it, which is what has the potential for happening. Mimsy said it much better than I. If you think a secure place exists where Apple can keep the software that no one will ever be able to access it unless they have legal permission, you're <personal attack deleted>.

There is kind of a huge difference between things you post on the internet and things you keep on your own personal hard drive. And while a phone is technically different from a computer in that respect (it being a memory card instead of a hard drive), it's basically the same thing. Do you want a hacker to get into your hard drive? I don't. And it has zero whatsoever to do with whether or not I have anything criminal on there.

 

I agree with Katkat's line of thinking. Except not just Apple but any number of 'third parties.' The way I see it -the boootstrap or whatever program that checks for the password has to take an input , checks it's hash value against some value stored in some memory location and then returns either a true or false response. I believe either a software or even a hardware hack could find the procedure. If found - make 100 clones to brute force. After 10 bad tries you lose 1 clone. Continue on . After 90 your using up your clones so make 100 more. If certain things as start location and storage location were known - which someone at Apple and who knows what 'third party' knows the test could be done without burning the phone. I'm sure it is already possible. Some way. Some how.

 

Well said. I don't share the contents of my purse or my diary with random strangers either. As Tibbs just said, that has nothing to do with their contents.

 

Look at it from another side: What if China, Russia or Iran asked Apple to break the encryption on a political dissident's phone? Still A-OK?

 

Apple actually is playing the role of dissident now in this terrorist case.

 

And while Apple or Microsoft, and people defending the rights of terrorists and other lowlifes, ordinary , law abiding, peace loving, hard working American citizens will be murdered.

 

Apple's CEO claimed in his letter that part of the reason they don't want to create this is because once it's created, it could potentially fall into the wrong hands. Which is why the FBI compromised and said Apple can have full control of program and do whatever it wishes with it. That way, they are the only ones with this program.

In my personal opinion, I think Apple thinks, in all it's might glory, that it's better than everyone and doesn't have to do what anyone says. Forget that it was a terrorist that killed 15 innocent people and that it's a government phone. No one tells Apple what to do.

 

I'm afraid Apple is just one more sad example of an American business collaborating with forces whose goal is to bring detriment to America. Back in the 1930's Henry Ford made the same mistake too.

 

They can. This is a pretext case.

 

I'm calling Godwin's Law on this.

 

I'm certainly not first to see Apple going down this path
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Gr%C3%A4fenberg_ist_bunt_-_Apfelfront_Gruppenfoto.jpg https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/8MnDQGopPMrRL9oNHWgm5NFaBRgg1ZEUJ-F_b6rB2M9q8XnqBTQ-BU2Fo9fiN5JDSOvgQQWs3XrzZlVoRW0If0EuQZLRVoBLI-0QECTa-pBcFGWi1VrSdAbB=w506-h303-p

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

I would like to know how Tim Cook and Apple's fight against expanding the USA's already extensive surveillance net is comparable to Henry Ford's desire to eradicate the Jewish people,

 

Oh so you mean to tell me the terrorists Apple is siding with in this case adore Jewish people? But as you know it's not just the Jewish people terrorists are out to get.

 

Wow, this thread went downhill fast...

 

Where else can it go once Hitler is invoked?

 

While this is undoubtedly a major dilemma for both Apple and the US government, from a UK perspective this dispute is trivial compared with the horrendous statistics resulting from random mass shootings that occur with sickening frequency in your country. The rest of the world might have more sympathy with the government position if it showed more resolution in dealing with your gun problems. Or is that just too politically sensitive for this forum?

 

Do a search for 2nd amendment on youtube.

 

I don't need to do a search but thanks for making my point for me

 

and when the government decides you're one of those people that must be spied on?

the NYC DA has already stated that if Apple cracks this one he's got 175 more for them to open.
The FBI chose this case because they knew that it would garner the most public support.
They sucked you right in with the nationalist OMG a Terrorist! reaction.

Consider the precedent that this will set regarding ALL encryption in the future. now look back at the history of government mandated backdoors and see how well that's worked out.

 

and if you looked at the statistics from the FBI and not what the news networks run for 7 straight days for ratings, you would see that the likelihood of being killed in a mass shooting event is statistically insignificant, just like the amount of "assault rifles" used in homicides is.
You are more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than a firearm.
Oh, and homicides committed with a firearm have been consistently DECREASING
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...able_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2009-2013.xls

 

It's statistics I'm looking at, not headlines.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence

 

Yeah, how did that strict gun control work out for France?

Back on topic, I read an article about this deal with Apple. I can't remember the author or exact words, but it was that it seemed the government was basically issuing a search warrant for something that does not exist.

I think it should be resolved in a Constitutional way. Rights can trump safety.

 

I understand your perspective there. Right now though the Nazi's at Apple are what this country is focusing on though. Gun control will always be a problem here. Even if gun ownership became illegal tomorrow, the USA would still have more shootings and problems with guns than it can literally handle. The truth is we're past the point of no return now when it comes to gun violence in this country, ain't nothing go to stop it.

 

More importantly, they should. As someone once said, those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

 

no, you'e looking at a "statistic" that was created by altering the metric of measurement

Apply the old metric and the numbers haven't increased. Regardless if you look at the link I sent you, the actual FBI database, you'll see that deaths involving a firearm have consistently decreased in the last few years.

There are literally millions and millions of firearms in this country. If they were as dangerous, and if gun owners were as dangerous, as they are painted to be by a hysterical media the streets would be running red with rivers of blood.
They aren't, with the few exceptions of terribly blighted inner cities. Gun control will not help those places, as they are already the strictest places in the country.
You want to fix the problem? End the war on drugs.

As always the debate comes down to a very simple issue.
We are armed, and we will not disarm willingly. So unless gun control advocates are willing to shed blood to disarm the American populace it will never happen. Even at that, I am quite capable of manufacturing my own firearms. You're from the UK yes? Go read up on your own government's treatment of one P. A. Luty. Now realize that there are millions of people with the same abilities to manufacturer simple firearms in their garage.
It's just a machine, it only happens to be powered with chemical energy. There is no mystery to it.

 

I'll sacrifice liberty then and just shake my head after these terrorist punks attack you.

 

Won't matter. No matter your beliefs. These folks take out even their own blood and faith when mixed with westerners. Poor planning doesn't even help their own families.

 

I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

 

Or live in constant fear of "the terrorists" and what they might do. If we're going to reconstruct our ways of life, not to mention our laws, because of how scared we are of what could happen if we don't, then we should at the very least be upfront about allowing "the terrorists" to dictate domestic policy and give them the right to vote in US elections.

If Apple refuses to help the FBI break into this phone, the terrorist threat against the population at large will not increase noticeably. But the individual's right to privacy will have been irrevocably damaged. The trade-off is not worth it.

 

From what I saw of the Boston Marathon terrorists attack you might not even get that lucky. All the more reason why sacrificing one cell phone is more than worth it in this case.

 

But can't you see that this is not about just one cell phone? That's what we've been talking about for days.

 

Some people choose to be ruled by fear instead of reason.

 

I'll just leave this here...
If Apple loses, your home could be the next thing that's unlocked

 

A strong defenses is your best offense. In fact with a stronger defense the Twin Towers would still be here.