Rip Fidel

In terms of how the lives or ordinary Cubans were transformed under Castro - in every single area of life that can be reasonably compared - it was of a magnitude that cannot be ignored.
Did it become or is it a 'workers paradise'? No and I have never said that.
The main reason it was such a feat - and one that at times caused problems internally that even I would have problems with - was because it was subject to the most brutal economic blockade that any country had ever faced in the 20th century.
I personally campaigned in the late 1970s and 1980s against some aspects of Cuban government government policy around free speech, and especially its deeply homophobic treatment of LGBT people (though that was a reflection of culture throughout Latin America and is in present day terms far worse in parts of Africa) and the Cuban government response to 'AIDS' which was on a par with Sweden, where sex workers and those believed to be affected were quarantined in camps and force medicated.
1n 1992 the then Cuban Foreign Minister visited London and among other visits spoke at a mass student gathering at the University where I was completing a second degree. He was very strongly questioned - mostly in his own native tongue - by dozens of us about problems around free speech in the 1980s and the appalling treatment of LGBT people. It was clear that he was taken aback by the strength of feeling from people who made clear their support for the Cuban Revolution but were not prepared to stay quiet about attacks on democratic rights. Interestingly, several of us who made those criticisms were 'cold-shouldered' by a couple of senior Academics of the University college in question who disliked public attacks on any aspect of Cuban policy.
So no, life in Cuba is not and never was 'perfect' but it's the height of hypocrisy to attack Cuba when for decades the people attacking Cuba were funding and arming the most brutal dictatorships in the world.

 

Neither did I try to imply the same.
Here's another take on pre-Castro Cuba.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/12/cuba_before_castro.html
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/09/cuban-revolution-fidel-castro-casinos-batista/

I want to know how many Cubans where killed fighting wars in other countries. And how many of those countries' citizens where killed by Cubans... All under the dictator Castro.

 

Eldon
Castro and the troops who wholeheartedly volunteered to fight with him in ANGOLA not only saved Angolans themselves from dictatorship by South African placemen, but they brought Apartheid to a much earlier end than would have been the case, while US and UK governments did sod all.
Castro was not even remotely comparable to Saddam Hussein (armed and funded by the USA and allies in the west), Hosni Mubarak (armed and funded by the USA alone), Mohammad Reza Pahlavi - Shah of Iran (put in place and armed and funded by the USA), and I can't even reel off all the Latin American dictators** and juntas armed and funded by the USA.
All those I have named above were brutal torturers and murderers who were kept in place by western (mainly US) arms and brutal terror on the streets.
To casually refer to Castro as a 'dictator' among those dozens of REAL dictators is not only factually incorrect but an insult.
And the simple truth is that outside of a small part of Miami and the echelons of western power and media, no one actually believes he was a dictator and that's why MILLIONS all over the world are now, and in the coming week, attending Memorial services for El Comandante. I'm attending one on Monday evening by the skin of my teeth as far too many wanted to attend, so there will be 1000s outside in the current cold weather.

**Galtieri (Argentina) Pinochet (Chile) - them two US funded murderers were responsible for 50,000 deaths alone.

 

This is a fairly balanced article about Cuba and Castro and a Musical that will explore the history
https://theconversation.com/our-mus...cture-the-polarised-debate-about-castro-69508

 

President Rafael Correa, President of Ecuador, speaking at Fidel Castro's memorial in Revolution Square last night.
"To evaluate the success or failure of the Cuban economic model [whilst] ignoring a criminal blockade of more than fifty years is pure hypocrisy. Any Latin American capitalist country would collapse in a few months under a similar blockade. To evaluate their political system, it must be understood that Cuba has lived in a permanent war. They have not invaded Cuba because they know that they will fail to overcome an entire people. With Fidel's example, the Cuban people will never allow their country to return to being a colony of any empire."

The video of his solemn speech is in Spanish but I am sure many will understand the substance:

 

I would like to know what other countries and leaders you hold in such high regard. We -the USA- have sanctions against North Korea? Are they great in your view. We also have sanctions against Iran. Some against Russia. I also wonder what other countries you despise as much as you do the USA. There are many that have been involved in conflicts all over the world and has been for all times. Or are we just singled out in your view. What of your own country? How does it rank on a scale of 1 - 10?

 

He was a dictator. One of the better ones but a dictator nonetheless. You have a right to your own opinion but not your own set of facts.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictator

 

Has Cuba ever tried to develop any weapons, let alone Nuclear weapons? No.
Has Cuba ever invaded any where outside its own territory? No
Has Cuba ever set up a concentration camp where over more than a decade it subjected its inmates to torture? N0.
Has Cuba ever sold or just simply provided any weapons of mass destruction, including chemical weapons, to any regime anywhere on the planet? No.
But Cuba has helped reduce and often wipe out illiteracy and illnesses in Latin America and Africa by the provision - free - of 10s of 1000s of Doctors, Teachers and Health Care workers.
Cuba's pharmaceutical industry has achieved successes in solving multiple illnesses on a par with the USA and UK.

No Cuba is not a 'representative democracy' like some others where 40%+ of their people never ever bother to vote because they see no point, where millions languish in poverty while millions enrich themselves, where millions suffer ill health and long term health problems because of lack of primary health care.

That's MY kind of 'dictatorship'.

 

Sorry Imandy - I forgot to answer the last point of your post.
My country has descended from a reasonably equal society - in terms of economics - in the mid-1970s to now being one of the most unequal societies in the world, probably on a par with the USA. It started down that road in the late 1970s and that descent was made almost permanent by the election - yes democratically - of the governments of Margaret Thatcher. The UK now has 2 million regular users of Food Banks to survive, homelessness is now at its highest in living memory, the UK National Health Service - the greatest health system on the planet very closely followed by that of Cuba - is grinding down at its core because of privatisation 'reforms' started by Tony Blair and enhanced by David Cameron and now Theresa May, and very significant cuts in spending. The UK government now spends the LOWEST GDP equivalent on health than any developed nation, bar none.
The UK is substantially responsible for the utter turmoil that now exists in all of the Middle East, while at the same time being an arms provider to rogue states like Saudi Arabia and Israel.
The 'special relationship' between the UK and the USA makes that alliance far far worse than Bonnie & Clyde.

 

Out of curiosity ... do you actually wish you had been living in Cuba ALL this time from when Castro took power and all the way into the present and into forever after? Is Cuba really THAT good? If it could be done at the flick of a pen, would you straight up swap UK citizenship for Cuba citizenship?

 

Out of curiosity .... at school did you have debates around issues and locations external to your own country and different types of citizenship, or even of history? You probably had teachers encouraging you to develop views and ideas with out it having any particular bearing on your nationality or birthplace.
That means your question is academic.

 

Like I said, out of curiosity. So, no problem if you choose not to answer.

 

I don't think he's answered any of my questions. It seems to be as much disdain for us as for US.

My guess is you would like to live in a place as this as long as you were a leader in a place as this!

 

May he Rot in Hell

 

It was a meaningless question.
If you were sitting in a tutorial at college, everyone discussing such an issue, and you asked that question of someone whose opinion you disagreed with, the lecturer would tear you down in shreds. Quite rightly.

 

No. There was no "brutal economic blockade" in place for 57 years. That is an absurd statement . . . the United States just did not allow economic traffic between it and Cuba. A blockade by definition means there were actual warships stationed outside Cuban ports for 57 years, and that is simply not so. This outrageous statement calls into question your depth of knowledge of the region's history.

Cuba was perfectly free to trade with any other nation and did so (including the Soviet Union . . . not exactly a country who had the United States best interests at heart) . . . not that you can tell from the standard of life of the average Cuban citizen. Castro was not a good person. He was a dictator who killed thousands for political reasons, reduced what was once a vibrant Latin American nation - a jewel of tourist activity and culture in the 1940's and 50's - to what it is today. People who tout Cuba's
medical and education systems assume what (possibly) well meaning tools like Moore, that idiot Penn, and other celebrities were shown on their "tours" was the reality for ALL of the Cuban people. It is not. The "scholarly" reports of intellectuals in Cuba about the greatness of their situation are highly suspect . . . after all, what else can they say? Do you know what happened to existing scholars right after the revolution?

I knew a very wise man. A very good man . . . he is gone now . . . who fled Cuba in the 1980's. He risked life and limb, and the life of his wife, to escape the brutal dictatorship of the Castro brothers. He told me things that happened to his country after the revolution that would curl your hair. You will excuse me if I take his word over things you have read, or what pampered celebrities have gushed about after their directed, monitored, and sanitized 'tours.'

I respect you, Max. You are obviously intelligent and there are some things you and I do agree on . . . but sometimes what you choose to believe or disbelieve seems a bit eclectic. I disagree with your assessment of Castro. In my opinion he was dictator and a murderer, who lived in luxury while his people suffered.

The untold and uncounted suffering of the people who fled his regime and perished at sea in rickety, makeshift boats, will never be known. People do not risk their lives, their children's lives, fleeing a happy place with a bright future. That alone should tell you something about the reality that is Cuba under the Castro brothers, and for the intellectually honest souls, require them to take glowing reports of life in Cuba with a grain of salt. In my opinion.

 

Factually incorrect and the vast majority of the world's adult population know that too. That's why 10s of millions are supporting memorials for a great man.
The 'vibrant' Latin nation of Cuba pre-Castro was Latin America's whore house for the rich. That's factually undeniable but you're doing a job (pretty poor) of trying to deny it.
Some people, for very normal reasons being under the heel of establishment propaganda, will ignore a mountain of facts to say black is white.
Good luck with that.

 

Nothing I posted is in any way factually incorrect. Please specify what you think is factually incorrect. Also, your statement that the "vast majority of the worlds adult population know that too" is purely subjective and itself has no basis in fact. This is simply your opinion. Your opinion does not equal fact.

Not saying conditions were wonderful in Cuba prior to the revolution, but I don't recall seeing anything in established history stating thousands of it's citizens risked life and limb fleeing the island. Was there something in the history records I missed? If so, please enlighten me. Also, the phrase "whore house for the rich" is a purely Marxist pamphlet rant which I will ignore.

You are, however, very correct in saying some people will ignore a mountain of facts to say black is white. Project much, Max?

 

Concerning the economic blockade it is factually incorrect. People who left Cuba when Castro and his party took power did so for reasons of money. Fact.
Not a single working-class poor Cuban left.

But you betray your own mindset with the 'Marxist rant' abuse.

That Cuba was the whorehouse of Latin America pre-Castro is so well established that only someone with difficulties around evidence would deny.
So typical when some people use political abuse because they haven't studied the facts.

 

Where do I begin? Your reply is non sequitur.

My evaluation of your economic blockade statement dealt with your claim it was "brutal" and the insinuation it involved physically preventing Cuba any trading rights with other nations. Your claim is an historically verifiable falsehood. You are wrong. My information is correct.

I have no doubt that some people left Cuba immediately after Castro took power. I'd imagine those well off enough to do so did so. So? Exactly how does this counter anything I posted? This is not something I addressed in my original post. My post referred to common citizens, who over years and years of brutal Castro rule, went to extraordinary means to flee an oppressive regime. This has taken place over decades. Your counter post makes no sense and does not address anything previously stated. You deflect because you cannot address stated fact. I have it on good authority the common citizen pretty much laid low during the revolution . . . in fact many of them had high hopes. Their hopes were dashed.

Please specify what you think is factually incorrect about my post.

 

Human rights in Cuba.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

 

Oh I forgot. My aversion to the use of "Whorehouse" in political discourse is not a product of my mindset . . . it's a product of my knowledge of general Marxist propaganda. Actually, it has become a bit outdated in western PC culture. I was a bit surprised to see it put forth in defense of a socialist dictator.

Any student of historical propaganda knows what I am talking about.

 

Studies by independent agencies in the USA, Europe and Latin America evidenced the strain on Cuba caused by the economic blockade. It is a miracle down to Castro and his government they did so well.
Denial of what Cuba was like pre-1959 is just childish in the extreme and, if watching, Fox news would offer people who say that a job! lol

 

Links please, to your quoted studies. Please give documented examples of your "Castro miracles". Your invective and ranting is valueless in a serious discussion. But then the propaganda cannot stand a serious discussion, can it?

 

The UK BBC did a more than 60 min long documentary two days ago. Despite their constant references to him being a dictator, they showed film footage from pre-1959 proving it was a whore house for the rich and quoted studies showing how the USA blockade (forced on its allies also who deepened on them too) put lives at risk.
So go there or do some easy research. Read the UN and WHO studies showing women and children are (even now) safer pre- and postnatally in Cuba than the USA. They are facts. You wouldn't get anywhere in a University tutorial as a freshman.

 

Once again . . . read it slowly if you have to. Define for me PLEASE what exactly constitutes a "whore house for the rich." As old as the claim is, you should be able to define it.


None of this is fact. This documentary is subjective on the face of it without detailed referral to established fact. Your "research" has already been debunked. I'm glad you weren't an arbiter of admissions when I was seeking higher education. I guess I'd fail your political test, hey?

 

I don't need to. It's well reported with concrete evidence. Email the BBC and ask them where their evidence came from.
The millions who will attend memorial services is the answer to you Spad. They are not brainwashed by neo-liberal capitalist warmongering media.

 

The multi-millions who do not celebrate his rule should give you their answer, Max. I do not need to shout Marxist labels like "neo-liberal capitalist warmongering media" . . . the BBC can stand or fall on the merits of any particular show. I'll let the public decide (have you seen the ratings for this episode? . . . sorry, dude). You have again not provided hard, verifiable facts to bolster your opinion. I have seen this for 40 + years. When pressed for facts or required to verify something, leftists deflect. You have no facts, you have no argument. This is why you are losing the popular opinion. You cannot win on reality.

 

You make make me laugh Spad. You wanted evidence for how Cuba was a whorehouse for the rich pre-Castro, I advised you how to find, and you ignore it.
Your mindset is as rigid as a Stalinist.
In the USA someone of my political persuasions - Bernie Sanders - got more to his rallies than even Obama did in 2008. He would be your President now if not for DNC corruption and vote-rigging in primaries.
In the UK, Jeremy Corbyn won two leadership elections in one year and increase his party membership by a factor of 4.
BREXIT along with the above is how things are going - contrary to your views luckily.
Millions celebrate Castro's life in every part of the world (never for any recent US political figure) and you stay inside your propaganda filled mindset.
Blacks and Hispanics all over the USA are mourning Castro, for good reason.
Read Herman & Chomky's book 'Manufacturing Consent'.

 

I am not ignoring anything. Nothing . . . absolutely nothing you have posted has countered anything I have stated. Nothing.

There are indeed millions who celebrate American leaders. Another claim of yours that can be debunked by reality.

I am not required nor inclined to search out internet proof of your claims. I can just as easily post links (which you have not done) or Google references (which you have not done) for your wild claims.

You lose.

 

Stay blind. Good luck. You do know how the bulk of the world looks upon the opinions you have shared? With a sigh and a shrug.

 

I for one do not pretend to speak for the "bulk of the world" . . . I will continue to follow what I believe to be the logical course, and suffer the fools I meet on the way

 

The bulk of the world don't agree with you as we have witnessed in 100s of broadcasts.
Do you suffer the fools that have kept administrations in power that leave 30 million of your compatriots without any primary health care and insufficient chronic health care, or the same number in deep poverty while $trillions are spent on arms and turning parts of the world into utter turmoil?

 

Your incoherent rant absolutely speaks for itself.

You do not now nor ever will speak for the "bulk of the world" in any form. You are obviously a parrot for the leftist media that has so recently badly failed. Your use of tired and debunked communist "talking points" tags you as a bit behind the times, even for the left.

 

Facts. Nothing incoherent. You are simply repeating nonsense right wing propaganda.

 

Again, and in closing . . . nothing in my original post was factually incorrect, as you claimed. For that matter, nothing else I have posted in this thread is factually incorrect.

The incoherent claim was wrong . . . I am sorry I made it. You were perfectly coherent in your post . . . you are simply wrong.

Castro was not a hero of any people. He was a killer, and a psychopath. Its so easy for those far removed from reality to see him in a romantic light. To be fair, that is true of many peoples. But there is so much actual documented history of what this man and his government has done to violate human rights, and yet there is so much propensity to ignore history.

 

Most of what you posted is not correct - about the economic blockade or the Cuban whore house pre Castro. Your governments over the last 65+ years have funded and armed some of the worst murdering dictators in the 20th century, but you bleat on about Castro. It's hilarious.
There is a documented history about Hussain, Mubarak, Shah of Iran, every single Latin American junta, PINOCHET (30,000 murders alone). Now go away and stop lying.

 

Nothing. Absolutely none of the facts I have posted in this entire thread are incorrect. Not one. Your last post is a rant, and not worthy of serious consideration. You cannot respond to legitimate questions so you resort to chapter two of the manual, and just spout nonsense and "feels" related propaganda. You fail . . . as such rhetoric always fails when reality hits. Sadly, real people suffer for your drivel. But that doesn't matter to you, does it?

 

OK well I suppose you don't recognise all those murdering regimes armed and funded by western governments (mostly the USA) while Castro was improving the health, education and welfare of, predominantly black, Cubans and acting to bring the evil of Apartheid to an earlier end than would otherwise be the case, and providing TENS of THOUSANDS of trained Doctors, Teachers and Health Care workers to the neighbouring developing world. While the surrogate regimes kept in power in Latin America, Middle East and Asia by the USA did none of that.
I know very clearly what kind of 'dictator' you prefer.
Good luck with that. You'd be laughed out of court everywhere on planet earth.

 

Don't forget being breast-fed by mother Russia.
Stop hijacking/derailing your own thread with references of atrocities by other governments - 2 wrongs don't make a right.
And start remembering I'm an African.

Do you actually believe what you post?
Fidel Castro didn't have the power or intellect to end apartheid - F.W. De klerk did.
Castro sent troops to Angola for a number of reasons - take your pick.
1. Yes, he opposed apartheid.
2. He wanted to get back at the US for supporting UNITA.
3. He wanted to say 'thank you' to mother Russia for the financial aid.
4. He desperately hoped to establish a Marxism–Leninismt régime in Angola - he failed.

MaxTurner, I have a simple question.
How many Angolans, Africans, black people were killed by Cubans in Angola?
Sending Cubans to Angola... to kill Africans... because the South African government oppressed Africans?

Second question: How many Africans were killed by Castro's soldiers in Africa?

 

Thank you for proving my point so effectively . . .

 

Rubbish - complete nonsense.
The vast bulk of the people of your own country revered Castro and the Cuban government.
Your insulting smears about alleged Cuban caused deaths in Angola would get you verbally lynched if you spouted that publicly.
Other posters have already shown you to be talking moonshine about apartheid.
There have never ever been any 'atrocities' committed in Cuba post Castro. It's sickening when 600,000 were murdered in East Timor, 30,000 in Chile, 1 million in Iraq all enabled by a government taking YOUR line about Cuba.
When a political Titan like Fidel Castro is dismissed dishonestly as a 'dictator' I will bring in any comparative information I wish whether any rabid right-wingers like it or not.

 

Answers please...

And try not to derail your thread.

 

Answers to factual nonsense? You've had the answers already.
Go and chat with some of your black country folk. Better you talk to them. Every attack you made on Castro would see them in apoplectic rage probably.

 

Black country folk? What does that mean?! Are you serious?

Take a breath man.

 

Apartheid = South Africa = Black
Angola = WHITE SA leadership illegality = Black
All those black people - the massive majority - LOVED Castro.
Just like the bulk of black people (and most Hispanics) in the USA. Love for Castro.

 

I am done with you, your ridiculous assumptions, and your apparent racism.

 

Any racism is white racism that - attacking Cuba successfully - would have left blacks under the heel of a tiny number of whites in SA for much longer if not for Castro.
You clearly haven't a clue how black Africans felt about Cuba and Castro.
I grew up in a city with a massive black population and I know how large numbers of them think on the subject of Castro and Cuba. They would probably laugh at your nonsensical comment.