Here We Go Again.......

When Australia had the gun recall and banned semi auto and auto weapons as well as all shotguns that can shoot more than three shots you could buy illegal weapons on the black market for less than $1000 but now the ban has been in force since 1996 and it has been reported that the same illegal weapons are still available but they cost over $12000 for semi auto weapons and even more for fully auto weapons.
So casual shooters have to have some serious money and good connections to get hold of these weapons so this tends to stop the crazies and the revenge killers going out and killing lots of people.
Of course pistols in Australia have always been difficult to own and also very difficult to maintain a pistol licence. The only people that can have concealed carry over here are police and unless they are detectives in a suit they always have them in an open holster on their belt.
As @Fred_G says banning guns doesn't stop criminals because they are intent on breaking the law regardless. Banning the guns has made less of them available so the crooks have to pay a lot more to get the tools of their trade.

Banning ownership of auto and semi auto weapons with huge fines if you are found in possession of any banned weapon and jail for a second offence meant most people handed in their weapons and they were destroyed thus making them no longer available. When they banned the weapons in 1996, they had a 3 month moratorium where you could present your weapon to police and watch it get destroyed and then receive a once off payment. When I handed in my guns they paid me over double the money I paid when they were brand new. My guns were in perfect condition and were a 12g 8 shot pump action Winchester Riot gun with carbon fibre stock and my other gun was a Ruger 10/22 special (150th commemorative year special issue) with a 25 shot magazine and 6 X 40 scope. I used the shotgun for duck shooting on my uncle's rice farm and the Ruger for shooting rabbits and foxes on my other uncle's dairy farm.
Now my house protection is Shiloh, the Rhodesian Ridgeback and an aluminium baseball bat and an old metal shaft golf club (#3 wood) but so far I have never needed anything....touch wood
Prior to having a big dog we were robbed twice but now they rob the neighbours instead

 

My heart and prayers go out to the families who lost loved ones, to those injured, and also to each and everyone in that school and community. It is unbelievably tragic and devastating. The effects will last a lifetime. Kids who attend schools where a school shooting has occurred suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome for the rest of their lives. I know some. It is truly sad and unacceptable!

These are my opinions and you can agree or disagree. I am not posting this to argue with anyone of a different opinion.

I am not for total gun control and band. I believe people should have the right to have a gun to hunt or protect themselves. As mentioned already ^ there are going to always be a way for bad people to get a gun on the black market. Total gun control means the bad people have guns and the good people will not and have no way to defend themselves. I believe a semi-automatic rifle has no purpose but to kill people and never should have been made available to the public. Future sales of these guns and ammo should be banned! I don't know how to go about getting them out of the hands of owners. I don't know how you could ever get them out of the hands of criminals. Bad people will always find a way to obtain and hide them. I don't have the answer.

Parents are calling for metal detectors on all school doors and full time security policemen in schools. I read that metal detectors cost upwards of $25,000 each, schools have a lot of doors. Schools don't have money to fund this. The money would have to come from somewhere else. Another suggestion for security is scan-able school Ids for teachers, school employees, and students. I don't know the cost of this type of security. It might help keep people from just walking into schools, but I assume there is always a way around any type of security.

Where do we put the blame? There are many places to put it! In my opinion a good place to start is violent video games and kids addiction to them. Violent movies and music don't help. I think they desensitize kids to violence. The downfall of morals is real high on the list. The easy availability of assault rifles is on the list of problems. Uninvolved parents is another factor.

It is not just schools but also any public place and in your own home you are at risk of a violent attack! No place in the world is totally safe anymore. Tragic but true!

How do we fix it? I don't have the answer but I know to do nothing is not the answer!

 

The last I remember is the Monash University shooting in 2002 by a foreign exchange student from China who spoke limited english. He joined the local sporting shooters club and after some time purchased several pistols legally which he then used in the shooting.

The first buy back of weapons in 1996 was mainly for rifles deemed illegal to own and then this mass shooting triggered a new pistol buy back scheme. After the new government review in 2002, many types of pistol were now being deemed illegal to own unless you are in the military or the police and it is a requirement of your job. After the review they also made it much harder for gun clubs to have access to pistols and pistol licences and also clubs were now unable to test people for gun licences. This meant every gun licence was now issued by the police and every person has to pass a full background check, a comprehensive three month safety training course, a medical fitness test related to eye sight and then pass several psychiatric tests before a licence can be issued. During the vetting by police, anyone who has been convicted of any violent crime or any kind of robbery or who failed any of the psychiatric tests was ineligible to ever hold any gun licence. Without a gun licence you can't buy any ammo, (not even BB pellets) in Australia and if you do buy ammo then the amount and frequency is recorded on the computer against your licence number so the authorities see a red flag if someone is buying large amounts of ammo and possibly stockpiling it. Once you have a gun licence in Australia then you get surprise visits any time of the day or night to check any weapons in your gun safe as well as the total quantity of ammo in the ammo locker. You can't have the guns and ammo in the same safe and if you are holding more than a mandated amount of ammo or you breach any other conditions then your licence is immediately cancelled. My friend who competes in target shooting at National level, has several high powered pistols and several rifles. He averages two surprise visits by the police every month to check his weapons and his logs and to check that all the house security systems for the prevention of the weapons being stolen are active and working as required.

Here is a link to the above shooting I mentioned and note the accused was deemed unfit to go to trial due to mental illness so should never have had access to guns in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting

 

FWIW...
Here's a list of school shootings in South Africa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Africa

On the other hand...

Something is very wrong when an 18 year old can legally purchase an AR1-15 but not a beer.
http://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/who-can-have-a-gun/minimum-age/
In South Africa it's virtually impossible for a person to legally purchase a semi-automatic rifle - to the best of my knowledge, only registered security companies can purchase them.

 

Being born and raised in Texas, I have a natural propensity and love toward firearms. I was properly instructed on firearms safety by my dad and loved plinking frogs with my own .22 from age 9-10 on. Moved to a .300 Savage to deer hunt with dad at 15 and started my own arsenal soon thereafter. In the military, I qualified with a 30 cal. carbine as a medic in 1960 and loved the light weight as opposed to an M-1. I now own several shotguns, one pistol-grip 12 gauge under my bed, and a 9 mm. WW2 German Luger (courtesy of my dad, who got it over there) in my bedside drawer. My view is that an unloaded weapon is only good for throwing at someone. I also have a 9 mm Beretta in my car door with one up the spout, safety on. I had a Concealed Carry Permit but let it lapse. Castle Doctrine, etc. My Son-in-law gifted me with a Chinese Mak 90 AK-47 15 years ago along with a brick of ammo. To date, I have never fired a round through it, but may go varmint hunting with it for fun this year. (Yea, Fred). Haven't busted a cap at a deer in 15 years or more, but loved it then. My 2 deer rifles sit languishing in cases under another bed. My wife keeps her .25 Beretta in her bedside drawer also. We are ready for the Apocalypse, but are hoping it won't come. We are just prepared.
Being a physician, trained to help heal and save lives, I am happy I have never had to intentionally use deadly force against a human. But I would not hesitate, given the provocation. I am glad that I am able to possess weapons ---- for defense purposes. It bothers me that someone might legislate away my right to protect myself and my family. Then I would have to break the law and hide my protection. There is no simple easy solution to our current set of problems.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/

Here's a look at how America's gun culture compares to the rest of the world.

 

In Australia, even today, it is still possible for almost anyone to have a gun or pistol licence...... unless you have a criminal record or have bad eyesight or fail any of the psychiatric tests. The difference is that to get a pistol licence involves a process that takes about 12 months from when you first apply and to get a gun licence (rifle or shotgun) takes about 6 months from when you apply. You can't go out and just pay for a licence and go shooting. In Australia the government mandate says that to have a gun or pistol licence you must be an "Australian citizen of good standing" and that having a licence is a privilege and not a right. So the process to get either type of licence is an arduous and long process and this means people can't get a licence on a whim and then go out and cause trouble. Then to keep your licence you need to shoot a minimum number of hours every fortnight down at a gun range and these hours must be recorded by two range officers in your log book. The only exception is a limited gun licence issued to farmers for stock and vermin control and after the farmer passes the usual required police conditions and tests, then they no longer have to go down to the gun range every fortnight and record a minimum number of hours in their logbook. Farmers licences are typically issued for .22 bolt action rifles or double barrel shotguns although if they have bulls, cows, buffalo, wild pigs or horses on their property then they can apply for something like a bolt action 30/30 rifle.

Of course the real crooks don't abide by any of this but at least there are much fewer guns floating around because when the government runs the buy back moratoriums they destroy all the weapons in front of you. When I handed over my weapons in 1996 I watched the 50 ton hydraulic press crush them into cubes. After the guns went through the hydraulic press you couldn't have even recovered any of the parts from the crushed weapons. In Australia it is illegal to sell firearms unless you do it via a licenced gun dealer. You never see guns for sale in the newspaper unless it is an ad from a licenced gun shop and you can't buy a gun or ammo legally from a gun dealer without having a licence with a rating to cover the type of weapon or ammo you are purchasing.
Of course the illegal black market weapons are still available if you have the right crime connections but a powerful semi automatic rifle that used to cost less than $1000 now costs over $12000 and the reason for this is that so many guns were destroyed by the government that now there are far less weapons available in the marketplace.

So @katkat getting back to your post........ in Australia if you are determined and can satisfy the criteria to hold a gun licence then you can get one but that doesn't mean you can own any type of weapon. Gun licences in Australia have a rating which states the types and calibre of weapon you are eligible to shoot or own. All semi auto weapons are now banned, all assault weapons are now banned, all shotguns that can shoot more than three cartridges are banned, all military grade weapons are banned and all fully automatic weapons are banned plus armour piercing ammo and other military grade ammo is banned and the only exceptions to any of these banned firearms are for the military and law enforcement. The penalties for having banned weapons in your possession or even any parts of banned weapons are harsh with big fines for a first offence and jail terms for any subsequent offences.

BTW you may be thinking how do I know all this........my son was the Junior National small bore 3P (3 positional) to 25 meter champion and also Junior National champion for high power off hand metallic silhouette to 600 metres and when he was 17yo he was awarded the Junior National Sporting Shooter of the year by the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia. He was also the Junior Victorian State champion for the previously mentioned shooting disciplines as well as small bore prone to 25 metres and small bore off hand to 25 metres. He was also junior club champion for small bore semi auto pistol off hand to 25 metres. We used to have to make special arrangements with the airlines to take his rifles, pistols and ammo around the country so he could compete at all the interstate shooting competitions ...........and you know how much the airlines like you having guns with ammo in your luggage so even with all the paperwork it was often still quite a challenge and a test of you patience getting through boarding process and security checks.
My son has dozens of gold medals and trophies for target shooting but is no longer in the sport and this means he can no longer hold a gun or pistol licence because he doesn't shoot the minimum required hours down at the gun range for his log book.
Currently we have zero firearms at home because when my son went to university, it suddenly became really unfashionable to be a sporting shooter who regularly shoots rifles and pistols........especially with the fairer sex so now instead of being uncool playing with guns for a hobby he now builds and drives fast cars (on the racetrack)

 

Hey Tim the last mass school shooting over here was way back in 2002 and this only killed two people and injured 5 people........... I don't think our system is perfect but it has definitely cut down on mass shootings since the mid 1990's........and domestic gun violence has also substantially decreased. Now more homicides are caused by "other means" than by firearms but don't take my word for it here is an article
http://theconversation.com/three-charts-on-australias-declining-homicide-rates-79654

 

Agreed. There are millions of guns in circulation. I'm in favor of gun control, but, that does not address all of the weapons currently out there. America needs to do something in my opinion. Hundreds of people are killed every week in the USA.

 

Interesting how many shootings happen in gun free zones. What, laws don't work.

The "18 school shootings" this year was fake news as well. Even the Washington Post put our an article about it.

I will just say this, you can't legislate morality. I am not giving up my 2A rights because some arseclown might use a gun in an illegal way. If they do that, they are already violating several laws... And with a little training, someone can easily reload a low capacity gun to engage multiple targets.

 

This was shown to me today. It's true.

 

If the constitution were to be amended it would be done in a democratic way. That is, like-minded lawmakers who favor gun control would need to be elected. The second amendment would be changed to reflect the will of the people. That's how democracy works. Nothing will change in America until people wake up and decide to change the system. The carnage will continue for the foreseeable future.

 

Exactly what I said in a previous thread.
There were NO AR-15's when the second amendment was drafted.
Laws are continuously amended as societies evolve.

I live in a townhouse (condominium in the US) and we have six feet high walls with 2 feet high electrification on the walls. One of the owners who designed and maintained security for an embassy said to me: "If they (criminals) want to come in, they will, but that doesn't mean we must leave the gate open."

We can't ban every single dangerous item but we can make laws to control the ownership and use of those items.

 

There was no mass communication when the 1A was passed either. But, by what the person you speak of said, criminals will not obey laws. So, why deny people theeir rights? What have my guns shot at lately?

 

The carnage is not due to a lack of laws, murder is already illegal, attempted murder is illegal, and having a gun in a school is illegal. How many more laws do you need before the criminals obey them?

Here is a gun free crime zone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-wielding-men-attack-train-station-China.html

Sick humans are the common denominator in these attacks. Planes, guns, cars, trucks, or bombs, a human is behind the attack. Banning certain guns does nothing but take away freedom from law abiding people. How would banning guns stop these attacks?

 

My right to freedom is not mutually exclusive to others pursuing happiness and life. And as that is part of the Declaration of Independence, and the fact that the average person of the time was armed as well or better as the army... Not sure where you are trying to go with the "45 rounds per minute", but LIBERTY is in there as well. If my memory serves, the 2A was done after the Declaration of Independence.

And the 1A is

http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment1.html

 

According Siraj Hashmi at the Washington Examiner here is a breakdown of the number of 19 shootings and only 6 qualify as intentional school shootings where intent was to do mass killing..
Of course even 1 school shooting is 1 to many and unacceptable.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...hool-shootings-so-far-in-2018/article/2649183

"1) A man committed suicide using a gun in an elementary school parking lot when the school was closed and there were no children present in Clinton County, Mich., on Jan. 3.

2) Shots were fired at New Start High School near Burien, Wash., on Jan. 4. No one was hurt or injured, and no suspects were apprehended.

*3) A 32-year-old man shot a pellet gun at a school bus, shattering a window, in Forest City, Iowa, on Jan. 6. No injuries were reported, and the suspect was apprehended.

4) A Grayson College student confused a real gun with a training gun and accidentally fired a bullet into a wall on Jan. 10. No injuries were reported.

5) A 14-year-old seventh-grade student shot and killed himself inside the bathroom of Coronado Elementary School in Cochise County, Ariz., on Jan. 10.

6) Gunshots were fired at a campus building at Cal State San Bernardino on Jan. 10. No injuries were reported.

7) Two people in a car exchanged gunfire at a Wiley College dorm parking lot on Jan. 15. No deaths or injuries were reported and no suspects were arrested, however, one bullet was fired into a dorm room with three female students inside.

8) A Winston-Salem State University football player was shot and killed at a sorority party following an argument in Winston-Salem, N.C., on Jan. 20.

9) A 16-year-old male student shot a 15-year-old female student in the cafeteria at Italy High School in Italy, Texas, on Jan. 22. While the victim was injured, she was expected to make a full recovery. The shooter was arrested and charged with two counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. This one we would probably all refer to as a proper "school shooting."

10) An unknown assailant in a pickup truck drove by the NET Charter High School in Gentilly, La., and shot at a group of students on Jan. 22. A 14-year-old boy was initially thought to have suffered a gunshot graze, but it turned out to be an abrasion.

11) A 15-year-old male student shot and killed two students and wounded 18 others at Marshall County High School in Benton, Ky., on Jan. 23. The shooter was apprehended.

12) A 16-year-old student fired a gun at another 16-year-old student during an altercation at Murphy High School in Mobile, Ala., on Jan. 25. No injuries were reported and the suspect was taken into custody.

13) Shots were fired in the parking lot during an altercation between two nonstudents during a basketball at Dearborn High School in Dearborn, Mich., on Jan. 26. No injuries were reported, and no suspects were arrested.

14) A 32-year-old man was shot and killed in the parking lot outside Lincoln High School in Philadelphia, Penn., on Jan. 31 during what police believed to be an altercation between students from rival schools. No suspects were arrested.

15) A 12-year-old female student accidentally fired a real gun thinking it was a fake gun. Four students were injured, including one who suffered a gunshot wound to the head, at Sal Castro Middle School in Los Angeles on Feb. 1. The 12-year-old girl was taken into custody.

16) A teenage boy was shot in the chest and nearly killed by another student who conspired with the boy's ex-girlfriend in the parking lot of Oxon Hill High School in Oxon Hill, Md., on Feb. 5. The suspect was taken into custody and charged with attempted murder.

17) A third-grade student pulled the trigger of a police officer's holstered weapon at the Harmony Learning Center in Maplewood, Minn., on Feb. 5. No injuries were reported.

18) A 17-year-old student was arrested after firing a gun into the floor of a classroom of Metropolitan High School in the Bronx, N.Y., on Feb. 8.

19) The shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., on Wednesday that left 17 dead."

 

It's called cognitive dissonance. Were I to suggest repealing the laws against rape or drunk driving because criminals disobey those laws, they would be aghast at my insanity. We don't need Ingsoc, Big Brother and the Newspeak dictionary to teach us how to doublethink, just the GOP and the NRA.

 

Agreed. I think that America is doing a poor job of diagnosing and treating people who suffer from mental illness. Ignoring sick people is very costly for American society.
However, there is no need for civilians to own an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle. There are too many guns in America. Period. No other country on Earth has a similar number of mass shootings compared to the the USA. I hope that America can face up to this problem. Australia got rid of guns. Murders and suicides declined.

 

One of these things is illegal to sell in the US because of the danger to human life.

 

Just saw this and the timing couldn't be much worse............. one of the guns is a Smith & Wesson M&P15 which is similar to an AR-15 assault rifle and the other gun is a Browning Stalker rifle...............

Pensacola private school gives away two guns in charity fundraiser
Here is the article
http://www.pnj.com/story/news/2018/...s-away-two-guns-charity-fundraiser/347034002/

 

I agree on the mental illness part of your post. Need, and ownership don't always go together. Is there a 'need' for someone to own a V12 sportscar? Why are cars able to go above the speed limit? Nobody needs to speed right? To follow that logic a bit farther, "nobody needs any computer faster than a dual core at 3Ghz with 8G of RAM, because only 'hackers' use the super high end computers.

There are tons of things sold that are not 'needed' and can be dangerous if misused.

Mass killers are guilty of murder, it is not the tool used that is the problem. Do we ban cars, trucks, pressure cookers, passenger jets, knives, gas, and fertilizer also? These things are great items, but have been misused to kill.

Now Lawn Darts, I think those are tools of Darwin. I mean, if you really let your kids play with that without proper supervision, yeah, bad things may happen. We had some as kids, we knew not to stand 'downrange', common sense.

 

None of those items are designed to kill either. Guns are designed to be dangerous when used properly.

 

I believe it is American.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-15

 

Russia was in the assault weapon race way back then along with a few other major countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle

 

True. The civilian versions came later and I believe after the original rights were sold to Colt. And all the copycats after that.
Arma Lite (Rifle), hence the "AR" 15, was in aircraft and other gov products originally. The gun manufacturers had a new market and started making rifles and pistol with features not used (or needed) by sports shooters or hunters for that matter.

Here's some differences. Also what was banned 94-04. And some guns and some with certain features still banned in many places in the USA now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon

 

Debunked . . .

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.f9a628eee84d

 

Also debunked.

. . . the law that was "undone" by the present administration was opposed by the ACLU and the AARP (as well as some disabled person's associations) as being unconstitutional. If you were a disabled senior citizen and had someone else manage your finances you were automatically deemed "mentally unfit" and thus prohibited a constitutional right WITHOUT being adjudicated in a court of law. This clunky law was never even in effect, for that matter.

 

Who is not horrified by a person willing to kill innocent people?

Tim, feelings don't equal facts.

 

Actually, guns are designed to propel a bullet at a target. Shooter determines what said target is.

 

You did not mention the pressure cooker used in the Boston Marathon bombing. And more than one plane was used in 9/11, and around 3,000 died, no AR's or AK's used. I would argue that people who use an AR-15 for mass murder are terrorists. Lots of ways to make bombs from commonly found items that are not regulated.

 

This number is not correct (see my earlier post).

Schools have had guards in my community for decades (off duty police officers).

I do not understand the negativity directed at this practice. My stand on the matter is our schools should have at least as much security as federal buildings and banks have. I saw a blurb by some politico responding to the idea of armed guards and metal detectors at schools by saying "sounds like a prison to me!" Really? Does Congress feel "imprisoned" at the capitol building, or do they feel secure?

I am sick to death of the endless virtue signaling pontification and outright hypocrisy on this issue.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/6890/democratic-congressman-yeah-you-dont-need-guns-we-hank-berrien

 

Who is asking to repeal laws against rape or drunk driving? Nobody I know of wants to make murder legal.

Trying to ban cars or (consensual) sex, well, that might be un American.

 

Jeez, carrying a gun into a hospital... http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...in-doesnt-have-concealed-carry-permit-anymore

 

It won't.
Stricter control of the sale and ownership of semi-automatic assault rifles will reduce such attacks.

The Bushmaster XM-15 (a semi-automatic rifle) has a maximum effective rate 45 rounds per minute.

Sports cars aren't used to kill school children.
And that's why there are speed limits - to reduce the number of road fatalities, not eliminate them.

 

A man in a truck killed 86 people and injured 458 others in Nice, France on July 14, 2016.

 

Vehicles can and have been used to kill.

 

David part of this is due to school bullying. Then of course we don't know if the child also gets bullied or otherwise abused at home.
It is all just tragic!