Here We Go Again.......

Lots of places to put blame.

 

Correct.

Other facts to consider:

• The majority are over 21 - the average age is 34.
• The majority, 60 percent, were diagnosed with a mental disorder/illness prior to the killings.

https://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-cont...s-and-Prevalence-of-Mass-Public-Shootings.pdf

 

Negligent homicide.

Don't bother with the cargument, Fred. Until GM introduces the Killvette, you're comparing apples to oranges.

I'm sure you've heard of gun safes, for example.

In some jurisdictions, if one is trained in the fighting arts, one's hands and feet can be considered weapons.
https://combatsportslaw.com/2015/11...-deemed-deadly-weapons-in-texas-assault-case/
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/the-human-body-a-deadly-weapon.htm

They're not misusing the tool. Guns are designed to kill and that's what they were used for. Killing.

 

Easy with the fancy words.
WordWeb's working overtime!

 

Jill Lawrence wrote a great piece in USAToday.

Would the Founders want our kids to die in school shootings like Santa Fe? I doubt it.
Jill Lawrence, USA TODAY Opinion

See here.

 

I'm not here to change anyone's mind, but here is why I don't think the anti-gun movement will ever work.
I've seen the headlines. I've heard the protests. I've seen and heard the accusations against lawyers, senators and even the presidents. I've also seen how a lot of folks live in this country. Many people live outside what is considered city limits.Many people own a farm. Or live on a farm or work on a farm. Sometimes not even a farm but large tracts of land. Land that is kept in the family for all generations. Many raise animal stock that is used to support the family. The land is used to grow food for the animals being raised. Also plots are planted to provide income to help in maintaing the property. Also food is grown to be used by the people on that land and also relatives, friends, coworkers and for trade between other farmers. Corn, hay, soy beans, okra, tomatos, peanuts, watermelon - you name it (even pine trees). Wildlife also learn where the plots are. Then you have the situation where the wildlife is also a product, or commodity and sometimes a nusiance, a problem. When allowed to get out of hand, animals can destoy a lot of work and cause a higher expence in replacing the lost product. So comes the family hunters. A deer herd that has been eating and tearing up the plots is seen as being needed to be thinned out. And the deer can also be seen as a way to put off butchering a calf or a hog, even if for putting it off for another growing season. Same with feral hogs. People still use many small and large game to supplement the food bill for the whole family.
Then the choice of firearm comes into the equation. Birds, small game, large game and the big boys bring out the need for different firearms. For some a single shot may be acceptable. In other cases a bolt action or pump will do. For some action, a faster reload is desired. That's the point of semi-loaders. Note these load the next shot automatically but don't fire automatically.
Many people also fish. Some for a living, some for fun, some as another way to supplement the the family food. Many fish in some wild country areas. A pistol is often carried during the warm season because of snakes. It doesn't have to be carried in your hand. A holster is fine. But if you are in a tight spot with a snake, you probably don't want a single shot with spare bullets to have to be loaded if a 2nd shot is needed. So revolvers or auto-loaders are a better choice.
Some with large tracts of land have enough game on the land to use it to support the land. Hunting and fishing tours or packages are sold and leases are let out on the land to groups, clubs or individuals. For the larger game hunts, you're looking at a larger firearm. 30-30 lever actions are good for close in hunts in brush. More open spaces start needing 30-.06's 243's, 6 & 7 mm, 308's. All available in bolt and semi (auto-loading) varieties.
All these activities are tracked and licensed by the states and even the federal governmemt. Think migratory bird and duck stamps.(federal). Laws are enforced, no large game hunted with rim-fired guns, only a certain number of round per firearm for some species. Some clubs and organizations (coon hunters) only allow 1 round per gun per hunt.
Then you have the businesses that supply the firearms and rounds. And again rules, laws and taxes. Also the clothing, vests, gloves, glasses, camping and cooking gear. Cleaning gear. Gas and trip money spent even if riding around on you own tract.
And notice, so far the nra hasn't been involed in this picture yet!
There is also the time families spend together. Learning and accepting greater responsibilities as come with aging and growing up. The family and friends help in not only prepping and tending the field, but also sharing in the meals and gathering times that come along with all of it.
As when I was younger, when the fields were being plowed and planted, the neighboring farms that needed help could and -did- get theirs plowwed and planted in turn. Same with cutting firewood. A truck for you and a truck for the widow 2 farms over. Same when a couple got married and settled down and needed structures built or wells dug. It is a family affair. And friends are considered as family, so everyone just joins in.
I can't see any mayor, governor, senator or president that is going to be able to tell all these folks out there, "Hey, games over."
People that joined the nra and bought ar-15's just to say they have one have probably not lived the life of being as self-sufficient as you can be.
And a lot of the money from taxes, licenses and fees - and even fines when infractions occurr go back into the land programs, herd studies, stock accessments, disease tracking and prevention and a boat load of other programs that would never be funded if not for these groups of peoples.
If the nra has 5 million members, I think that number is small compared to people that live the more rural life. I also think a big hole would be put in the market if all this was suddenly gone.
I just can't see it vanishing in the rest of my lifetime.

 

I remember the tower shooting in texas in 66. There has always been a crowd of gun-lovers and gun-haters. I don't see much has been done in 50 years except brady bill and background checks. Not much at all by anybody.

 

Here's what happens to people here that want to maim or kill - only thing I can say is it took too long -

http://www.mypanhandle.com/news/shooting-reported-in-panama-city/1192473657

As many law as were there it could have been over as soon as innocents were cleared. But LEO's did their job. I think one person injured - beside the suspect.

If more of these kind of things were taken as seriously as they should be quickly, perpetrators might think twice. It doesn't end pretty

 

Another nut with a gun , like most of these stories.

 

Holy $h!t.

Total number if incidents:
2014 - 51,848
2015 - 53,752
2016 -58,900
2017 - 61,698
2018 - ???
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

 

My point is this. Illegal drugs are illegal. Yet they abound in the US. Guns are illegal in Europe, but all along they have a mass shooting. Guns were available back in the 1950's or so through the mail, no background check. What has changed? The guns, or the people? More kids die from car wrecks than school shootings, lots of people die from feet and hand trauma. How do you make a law that will make people who have no fear of being shot, killed or arrested act like normal people? To the best of my knowledge, every mass shooter in recent history is dead, or in custody.

http://www.rockymounttelegram.com/Columnists/2018/03/07/Hidden-Agenda-or-Ignorance.html

 

You've thrown everything but the kitchen sink in this post.

I'm surprised you're in favor of legalizing drugs.

I wish our problem was only "a mass shooting". Our problem is "mass shootings".

Back in the day, a white man could kill a black man with impunity. A man could get away with rape as long as "she was asking for it". This whole idea the "good ol' days" were morally superior is risible. The guns have changed too. You didn't see many of these:
https://s31.postimg.cc/923ht4l8r/kit-0228.jpg

Less now because of laws mandating child restraints and safer cars. How many hand/foot mass murders?

And your conclusion is, "Don't bother"? Pedophiles don't expect to be arrested, let alone shot or killed. Why bother? Drunk drivers don't expect to be arrested, let alone shot or killed. Why bother? Kidnappers don't expect to be arrested, let alone shot or killed. Why bother? Does it still make sense?

And their victims are still dead.

 

Just Playin, where did I say I was for legalizing drugs? I am pretty Libertarian about drug legalization if you really want to know.

And I tossed the sink in there? What does race have to do with this? Can you dispute any part of the article I posted? The author of the article just stated facts, that guns were much more available and less regulated in the "good old days". But, you did not see mass shootings often at all. Now guns are more regulated, and we have a lot of mass shootings. What changed? Guns? AR'a have been around for almost 60 years. Gun laws are much more restrictive, yet gun crime has gone up. Guns, or society? Look at Chicago, nice gun restrictions there.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/data/ct-shooting-victims-map-charts-htmlstory.html 935 shot, and it is not even half way through the year.

728 hands and feet vs 323 rifle in 2011. Maybe no "mass murders" with feet and hands, but the number of dead vs rifles is a lot higher.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

If we are really concerned about teens, why not raise the legal age to drive to 21?

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/teen_drivers/teendrivers_factsheet.html

I don't recall the right to drive being in the Constitution. But, teens driving is killing a whole lot more than teens shooting teens with guns. And injuring over a quarter million people in 2015...

My point is this. I own guns. How is restricting my right to own my legal (and not used in a crime guns) going to prevent someone from: obtaining a gun illegally, taking a gun to a school illegally, assault or murder attempt... Perhaps make it more illegal to break a law? Or try to find out what is going on with kids wanting to kill kids?

 

What fact have I posted that is not correct? Arguments, sure, we all have an opinion. Believe it or not, I do my best to present facts as facts, with links, and my opinion as my stated opinion.

 

If you're opposed to gun laws because criminals violate them, you're surely opposed to drug laws because criminals violate them. I would certainly assume your logic is consistent and you're not guilty of special pleading.

Why are you so triggered by the mention of black people? Are you claiming AR15s, AK47s and other high capacity assault rife analogues were ubiquitous back then as now? I would need proof of that. Let's look at New York. Gun crime is down there, but they're surrounded by states with similar laws. From Chicago, it's a short drive to Indiana and other states where it's easy to buy guns.

You know what else Chicago has a lot of?

Would you pit your hands and feet against a rifle?

You said kids, formally known as children. When they're old enough to drive, get jobs and take on adult responsibilities, they stop being kids.

I don't recall any car specifically designed to be lethal so I don't compare the two.

The Republicans, with NRA backing, have passed the Dickey amendment in 1996 banning federal research on gun violence. I wonder why.

 

Hehehe .......you are right on to him Tim.....FYI I didn't comment on the safe in Fred's video because rubbish like that wouldn't ever be permitted for firearms storage over here as the sides have to be a minimum 5mm thick welded steel for handguns and 3mm for rifles/shotguns. Also over here you would have to knock out the walls of the house first before cutting into the safe because gun safes never get approved if they are free standing or you can get to the sides or back and they are always mounted inside cupboards that the three walls are a structural part of the house. Also no hinges are to be visible from the outside of the safe so you can't cut off the hinges of the door to gain access. If your house doesn't have cupboards whose three walls are a structural part of the house then you can't keep any guns period and end of all discussion. Any of the cheap gun safes for sale in other countries are rarely ever approved for use in Australia no matter how fancy the lock looks
Over here the authorities favour security rated 5 lever key locks and if you use a combination lock then you still need to have a 5 lever key lock. By having a key lock they can send you to jail for leaving the key accessible or for handing out extra copies of the key to other people.
When you secure your guns the onus is totally on you if someone gets access to your safe and if they got hold of your key because you left it in a drawer or similar then you will be going to jail for a while. Combination locks have no guarantee that others won't access them so they can only be used in conjunction with a key lock to make the owner accountable. Of course if a lockpicker opens your safe there won't be a problem as long as you can prove you are the only one who has a key and that you didn't open the safe You also need to have a burglar alarm on the safe as well as the house and they are now talking about mandatory video surveillance that records for several days minimum.

You have to remember, in Australia, you have no right to own a firearm and needing a gun to defend yourself or your property is not a valid reason to own a firearm and if you mentioned this in your psychiatric test then you will be denied a gun licence and be tagged to never be able to hold a gun licence.
In Australia a gun licence is viewed the same as a driver's licence. You have no right to have either but if you can pass the appropriate tests and and satisfy all the conditions then it will be your privilege to be permitted to hold a licence but only for as long as you meet all of the required conditions.

Fred is very good at semantics and he never quotes figures based on total firearms because if you lumped all the types of long rifles and all the types of handguns together and then included all deaths and injuries caused by the total of all firearms then his hands and feet argument wouldn't carry any weight.......but then again maybe it is Fred's weird sense of humour bringing in hands and feet
When they quote the road toll they don't selectively say that only car deaths count or only SUV deaths count or only truck deaths count or only motorbike deaths count or only station wagon deaths count................you get the picture

 

By what logic did you use to get to this conclusion? Criminals, by definition do not follow laws.

 

The fact that more people were killed by hands and feet than rifles is simply a fact. You added some handgun aspect to it.

Your second part compares two years of car vs gun data. How is that not apples and oranges?

What about auto injuries and deaths in 2016?

http://fortune.com/2017/02/15/traffic-deadliest-year/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/us/gun-death-rates.html

 

But Joffa, keep in mind, here, we do have the right to own guns and use them for defense. So a bit of apples and oranges to compare the two.

In honest curiosity, why are the wall thickness different for handguns and long guns?

Just curious there. And in all honesty, I have been curious as well about the supposed ease of breaking into gun safes. I do know they sell cheap "gun lockers" here, which just keep the casually curious out. I would think a gun safe would be secure, but there are a lot of videos around about how to break into them.

There is a reason for this particular statistic. Many want to reinstate the assault weapons ban from the 1980's. Which did really no good. The guns "look" scary, so easy to demonise them. And it can be funny watching them try to do so.

 

The reason for the different thicknesses is because after the first gun amnesty in the 1990s there was a big shortage of handguns on the black market so a few target shooters had their homes broken into and their pistols stolen. This was the trigger for strengthening handgun safes because in every case these were the only safes that were forced open. The safes with rifles were always left untouched. This was the time when they strengthened the handgun safes and also made it mandatory to have a working burglar alarm. They also made it a requirement that safes with combination locks also be protected by a 5 pin lever lock. Another thing added was that the locks needed to have multiple high tensile latches or pins on all sides of the safe door and all be operated by the key mechanism.
Inside the safe you can store guns or ammo but not both unless there is another secure locked compartment inside the safe with a different key. If you want to store ammo then the ammo goes in the main area of the safe and your handguns go in the separate locked compartment.
My friend has 4 pistols and one is a semi automatic and another is a .357 magnum revolver plus 5 rifles including a bolt action 22-250, a lever action 308 deer hunting rifle and an over and under 12g shotgun. When the coppers come to check his two gun safes they casually look at the rifle safe but they check every little detail of his handgun safe as well as check if the burglar alarm is working correctly.

If they can't legislate to force all gun owners to securely store their guns with real deterrents not a smack on the wrist fine then maybe the government needs to change from a mandated right to bear arms to make it a privilege to be allowed to hold a licence to bear arms and then make testing to get a licence so rigorous that it weeds out all the people with psychological problems.
Something needs to actually happen to save the children and the other victims so instead of the dickhead politicians sending their thoughts and prayers, why can't they show some leadership and force gun owners to change their attitudes to the storage and use of firearms.

 

Your logic. The issue here is cognitive dissonance.

 

I get you on the ratio part. And hands and feet was just to show that there are a lot of ways people die, not just guns. Look at the ratio of kids under 18 that die from car accidents vs guns. And as to the hands and fee, I specified it was more than rifles. Not all guns. My facts were actually stated. If we are doing math, how many accidents are caused by drivers under the age of 18, vs deaths by school shootings/mass shootings?

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/teen_drivers/teendrivers_factsheet.html

From your link TimW, rifles killed a lot less than hands and feet. And I did not see, but do those stats from your link include suicide as a gun crime?

 

Logical but not possible. The USA has little border control. What I personally find humorous is the same people advocating no guns and yet for relaxing border laws. Even if no guns were sold in the USA we would still have plenty of guns. Consider illegal drugs as a comparison. Illegal and commonplace due to demand.

 

Who would that be?

 

Suicide by hand or foot, well, it could happen. Roseanne pretty much did it with fingers.

I apologize, I was not clear. My point was this, more people are killed by hands and feet than rifles. So called "assault rifles" are a subset of rifles. Many of the gun control people want to ban so called "assault rifles" under the guise of "commons sense gun safety laws", because it will supposedly save lives. But, much more mundane things are more dangerous to teens than assault rifles. When an airline crashes, or a mass shooting happens, it is all over the news. Chances are, you are more likely to get into a wreck on the way to or from the airport than die in a horrific airline crash. So, do people really want commons sense gun safety laws, or do they really want to ban any subset of guns, to forward their goal?

And yes, I state this wearing my tin foil hat, many want to outright ban all guns. They are masters of marketing. Instead of gun control, it became commons sense gun safety laws... Great branding,

 

I saw this quote and thought it was rather fitting

http://www.fmylife.com/img/21c586e53f18724d339a75ede7e4b7f2.jpeg/original/

 

Remember where I live. Admit it, the Dems here are exactly who I implied. "open borders" and "abolish guns to save our children" are chanted by the same people. I am not saying the Republicans have a better answer, just that I find it paradoxical and humorous.

 

Google "who is for open borders" and we get a standard list - Soros, Hillary, Obama, etc. typical article attached
https://www.salon.com/2017/03/15/ev...way-to-defeat-trump-and-build-a-better-world/
another way is to see who Soros supports after reading
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/263873/george-soross-open-border-foundations-joseph-klein

Google those names found with "opinion on gun control" - taking the most flattering one for Hillary
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/gun-violence-prevention/
Where she says "She will also support work to keep military-style weapons off our streets." One of my weapons in the military was a 9mm Beretta, a very common hand gun, notice she does not say "assault rifle".

Can you argue the point? Sure. Can you laugh at the paradox? I hope so.

 

George Soros is the liberal boogeyman hiding under paranoid conservatives' beds.
Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton want to take their guns. Here's the warehouse where all the guns they seized are stored:
https://s15.postimg.cc/lp1g8wn8b/Charming-_Warehouse-_Storage-_Rental-_J59-_In-_Perfect-_Home-_Decoration.jpg

 

Saw this today in a report/ article on the Fla student's protest in Fla grocery store protesting donations recently.

https://images.spot.im/image/upload/f_auto,q_70,fl_lossy,dpr_3,h_433,w_500,c_limit/v200/d19767e4c3f72269406062d5df648bf4

 

One day when all these young kids become us, it may be a hard road to hold on to!

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...en-carson/fact-checking-ben-carson-nazi-guns/

 

I think most reasonable people will agree with you.
The problem is... "Common sense is not so common."
Looking at countries with the top indicators of socioeconomic success the US ranks ninth. But it has the 31st highest gun-related death rate in the world.
https://www.scpr.org/news/2018/02/15/80811/deaths-from-gun-violence-how-the-us-compares-to-th/
In 2016 more than 11,000 were killed with firearms. (And let's not forget the 20,000+ who committed suicide with firearms.)
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls
And the children?

https://everytownresearch.org/notanaccident/

@Fred_G,

http://www.vpc.org/regulating-the-gun-industry/gun-deaths-compared-to-motor-vehicle-deaths/

http://www.vpc.org/press/gun-deaths...hs-in-21-states-and-the-district-of-columbia/
How do you suggest hands and feet should be regulated?