Any Latin Experts?

in crimson kimono (1959) one of the chars says something like "aut gar aut sine -- that's latin for 'put up or shut up' ".

aut...aut is fine, but what are the 2 verbs there? cannot find anything even CLOSE to "gar" or "sine" with close meanings!

GIA! (gratias in antecessum)

 

I believe sine means without ?

 

generally, yeah. if there were a word for "with" close to "gar", i'd conclude she's saying "with or without" and that "put up or shut up" is a very "loose" translation. but that phrase is usually rendered "(aut) cum aut sine" to begin with.

again, i do not claim that either gar or sine are exact matches here. i am asking what words could be CLOSE to those two, while more-or-less meaning "put up" and "shut up"?

 

for the curious, the movie also refers to a police lineup as a "showup", and to going to the ladies' room as "powdering my abstract"....

 

abstract or showup?

 

It's idiomatic. The vernacular of the day is more determinate of meaning than literal word for word translation.

Reminds me of "sans corporea in sana capitis".
Idiomatically "sound mind in a sound body".
Literally, not really...

Also, there are five declensions for nouns/cases, and four conjugations for verbs. Often, each tense is spelled very differently. Trying to specifically look/google search for the definition of a conjugated verb is nearly impossible.

Declension:
nominative - subject
genitive - possesive
dative - indirect object
accusative - direct object and prepositions
ablative - preposition and special cases (means by which, etc.)

 

0 hits on google. i dunno what ur going for here.

and i already said i'm ready for a "loose" translation. give me a set of words sounding like "gar" and "sine" (ANY mutation) which pair off well together!

 

Looking for something catchy, eh?

You could use claudo which means to close or shut. It also means to hobble or limp. So, "posuit vel claudat". Personally, I don't think it suits.

Other words can be used as a substitute for vel, like "aut" or "an". I think "aut" is more applicable as it sort of means "or else". And, I'd go with the verb "tempero" which can mean to control yourself. "Taceo" means to be still or silent. Since it's an imperative, the verbs are truncated. So, I'll go with:

"tempera aut tace"

Basics of pronunciation:

 

P.S. Rolling things in the back of my brain for something "loose". The list of Latin verbs is long. I'd love to talk to the author of the screenplay.

At what point in the movie does the character utter the phrase?

 

So, "posuit vel claudat". Personally, I don't think it suits.

for "aut gar aut sine"?! i should say not!

So, I'll go with:

"tempera aut tace"

and THAT u think sounds "pretty close" to "aut gar aut sine"????

i was expecting answers like "maybe 'gar' is 'kor'" or "'sine' could be 'saime'" or things like that, not "'gar' sounds like 'tempera' (?!) to me...."

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@11:07, at least in the copy i have.

 

Found the scene with the artist on the ladder.

The thing is, "put up or shut up" would be imperative. This drops the "-re" off the end of the verb. So, it would be difficult to properly have what they used for "put up" ending in "r". Using "aut" twice is very poor grammar.

It sounds like "aut dar, aut sile". Which means they used "sileo" for shut up, which works, but isn't a great fit by definition. Still trying to figure out what was used for "put up". If they used "do", it would be "da", not "dar". However, "do" means "give" moreover than any other definition.

Perhaps with her accent/vernacular it's "da", and just sounds like there's an "r" at the end.

Loosely, "either give or be silent".

 

that's PERFECT! not only did u come up with a pair close to what i THOUGHT i was hearing, but both of them in the ballpark of necessary meaning.

on top of which "aut da aut sile" has a handful of google hits. most following the word "bourbon" -- like in the movie -- indicating to me that it's in SOME versions of the script/subtitles (mine it was not, or i never would have asked!).

so, yeah, that's definitely the answer. and don't u see how "aut da aut sile" is a tad mite closer to "aut gar aut sine" than either "posuit vel claudat" or "tempera aut tace" is. really made me WORK for that here!!

gold star for this last post! (first 3 i thought u were trolling me...) many thanks!!

 

funny, the line immediately preceding it about "that bulge in your pocket", i took to mean something competely different!!

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as long as u have a copy, i'll mention that "showup" is @32:08 and "powder my abstract" is @1:00:47

googling reveals that "showup" is, indeed, in police use, but for a lineup with only 1 candidate. i.e. show victim/witness the suspect and ask "is this the guy?"

they are clearly using it to mean a standard lineup here, tho. not sure if this is a goof or usage which has since changed.

"powder my abstract", no clue. i don't really understand the line, but it's certainly novel! (one review labeled it "best line in cinema history")

 

I don't know who did the translation, but it's very poor. If you said "aut da, aut sile" to a period Roman, you'd probably get a rather quizzical look.

Glad I could lend a hand.

As far as the language, slang and vernacular changes over time.

 

some changes catch me off guard. all in the family had 3 pilots with script 99% the same (just cast changes). the 1% diff included a statement along the lines of "a young housewife has a lot of responsibilities -- cooking, cleaning, doing the marketing".

first 2 versions like that; 3d version about 10 years later it was "a young housewife has a lot of responsibilities -- cooking, cleaning, doing the shopping."

i asked a lot of oldtimers if they recalled anyone every using "marketing" like that, but not a one could. and these are people who use "oleo" and "ice box" to this day!!