My Heart Just Stopped - Pc Flashed During Storm - Need A Proper Surge Bar !!!

Here goes my story:

I was sending some data to a friend over a messenger program today so I left my pc running. I was feeding my dog downstairs while I heard a storm beginning to brew. All I heard was light thunder in the distance and not much fuss. I thought "Hey it's far it'll pass". I walked to my room in order to see how far the files I was sending were at when all of a sudden...


http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8123/lighteningxm4.gif


I heard a big bad boom out of the sky that sounded as if it were in my neighborhood. As that happened I watched as my pc screen flashed [blinked] before my very eyes! As a natural reaction [for my dear babies life - yes my pc] I went to the START menu and shut down my pc as fast as possible even though I had heeps of programs running. I than turned the switch to "off" on my dollar store power surge bar [lol yes I've been meaning to upgrade], unplugged the power surge cord from my wall outlet, and finally disconnected the two main phone jacks running to the modem and cordless phone. I sat back in horror as my baby had just been shocked????


Great well this is my first time experiencing anything like this. I'm always around when a storm comes and on time to turn off an unplug everything according to my procedure above. I can't believe I took a risk this time thinking that the storm was afar, and that it was only thunder in the clouds. Believe me I already apologized to my $3000 pc, and used a defibrillator on my heart after that scare. I don't know much about surges or the laws of electricity so I guess that was a surge, the power going out, or the same thing. I don't know much but I do know this... My cheap crumy power surge bar is headed in the trash this week. This is the surge bar I use on my pc:


http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9300/power20barkh8.jpg


There are no jacks for phone lines or cable tv lines on it. All it has is a "Reset/Off" switch. What do I have plugged into this crap boy you ask?


1. 22" Inch Tv
2. Vcr
3. Nintendo Wii
4. High Speed Dsl Modem
5.17" Pc Monitor
6. Computer [with/ 450 Watt Psu]


Great well now that we've established the fact that there is so much good stuff plugged into the bar to lose, maybe you can all help me find the right surge bar for my needs. By the way I am very fearful of losing my computer since it has life long work of data on it, and not to mention very rare parts such as a profession sound card I bought which is around $500. All in all I've invested about $3000 into my pc. No I am not rich but I do want an adequate power surge bar to protect my equipment. I'll spend money for protection... But my budget is around $50. If I really have to I will spend more! I love my baby and she can't die on me.


Can you all please answer the following questions by sequence and also add whatever info you wish at the end of your reply:

1. What are the best brand names for power surge bars?

2. What are the best power surge bar models you know of?

3. What should I be looking for in a power surge bar?

4. What is the main procedure you should follow when using a power surge bar?

[ie: I told you my procedure at the beginning of this post, whereas when storms come I turn off my pc, flip the switch to off on the surge bar , unplug the surge bar cord from the wall outlet, and unplug all phone lines going to the modem and my cordless phone.]

5. Are the $10,000 [warranties/guarantees] on all things connected to the surge bars they sell nowadays really true?

6. Any more info you would like to tell me about surge bars, storms and pcs, or anything about this topic? [since I am very illiterate when it comes to protecting my pc when up against these conditions/situations]







Thank You

 

I'd sooner rely on a UPS (uninterruptable Power Supply) than any surge bar.
Wikipedia link is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply

I always disconnect my laptop from the wall AC powerpoint and also disconnect the modem input from my PC every time I log off.

Particularly if you live in a storm prone area (as I do), pull them both if storms are around. Bazza

 

With that much beautiful equipment, I might recommend going a further step and investing in a UPS.

Current = voltage / resistance
Voltage = current x resistance

Current is what is the killer here. Excessive current causes electrical components to heat up. The more current, the more heat, the greater the chance something MELTS, and becomes non-functional.

A "power surge" is a spike in voltage. When voltage goes up, so does current. Your power bar only protects against these. It will not protect against UNDER voltages or power outages (which aren't QUITE as dangerous, but can still cause problems). A UPS will. It has a battery backup, so if voltage drops, or cuts out completely, this will kick in, and your devices barely know anything happened.

The major benefit of this is the computer. This should give you time to shut it down. Shutting it down suddenly (such as in a power failure) can cause file corruption. Most even come with software to shut down the computer safely.

 

Two votes for UPS are better than one, M_M. :major Bazza

 

If that is the case [and your personal opinion] Bazza and Mada Milty please rearrange the questions in my first post and reply as if I were speaking of an UPS.

I'm still interested in information about a power surge bar to all those newcomers who are reading this thread. Although I am now considering an UPS as well.

 

Id go one step further. I'd invest in a UPS with an AVR built in. (Automatic Voltage Regulator).

 

Ya, invest in a UPS. My $100 CDN has saved me lots of grief already when we had a strong one go by last week. Power fluctuated several times in one minute when lightning struck, even the pole transformer blew out. For that machine to protect yourself, a power bar is useless IMO. Go for the highest joules you can afford.

 

Lightning or power fluctuation?

Sorry to hear about your experience, people tend to underestimate the power of nature until they experience it first hand.

It is not possible to protect against direct lightening strike.
An indirect strike causes flashback through the local (building) earth which is used to earth both power and data somewhere in each system. If the strike is close enough it can also take out semiconductor equipment with the famous EMP or electromagnetic pulse.
No power bar will protect against this.
All you can do is make sure equipment is disconnected from both power and data lines during a storm.

As Bazza says, disconnect if the equipment is to be left unattended.

A UPS is intended to provide enough power, in the event of power LOSS, to enable windows to shut down crucial files so as not to scramble the system. You are always at risk of scrambling if you just pull the plug. Some 'luxury' versions supposedly enable a computer to continues running when the supply is unreliable such as on board a small boat. We were always ditching these as not up to their promises when I worked on offshore oil rigs.

The internal power supply of any well built pc already has better surge limiting than these power bars, which are usually a balanced limiting choke wrapped around a ferrite core to limit the rate of rise of the supply.

You will, of course, experience power fluctuations if you overload any power socket via a multiway adapter. These fluctuations may well cause one piece of kit to influence another. E.g. a TV might dim if you also connected an electric iron.

Studio T

 

Are you trying to say that an UPS is useless against lightning? Either way you've all established the fact that a simple grey power surge bar like the one I have is useless when put up to UPS protection. So therefore I want an UPS now. Can you all please read the 6 questions at the bottom of my first post and pretend as if I were asking about UPS instead of another power surge bar? Please and thank you!!!

 

Against a direct strike, nothing can save you. But you buy the best, and cross your fingers. Basically you need protection, but a little common sense will go a long way.

I use a UPS on a computer that I can not turn off, I use a decent surge protector for my entertainment center. I'm one of the lucky few that have underground wiring in my neighborhood. This doesn't make me completely safe, it just improves my odds.

Another thing you can do to improve your odds is an old fashioned lightening rod. Contrary to myth, it is not to take lightening strikes directly, but to bleed off static electricity before the potential increases to the point that lightening is inevitable. It improves the odds, but lightening and tornados happen no matter what people do.

 

Where I live in the South West of the England we seehalf a dozen storms a year that are significant enough to cause damage to electrical/electronic gear.
The most common pc component to be hit is the modem, through surges on the data line (telephone). I did see an instance this February when a strike in the centre of a small Devon town set off all the shop alarms in the main street, many were damaged.
As Augie has noted the strike does not even need to be close to your equipment to cause damage. If it hits/disturbs part of the power sytem this can throw a surge down the power line. One powerful enough to take out a transformer would probable also take out a UPS. I think it was likely to be the dead transformer that saved Auggies bacon.

The only sure way to be safe is to disconnect, including the earth, during a storm. If you must run in these conditions you will experience damage from time to time. You must do a cost /benefit analysis of protection against cost.

If you do buy a UPS make sure it is Windows certified, as Windows has the capability to control UPS sytems. you access this through the power settings.
Many UPS are designed to protect other non windows equipment.

Studio T

 

Oops! Double-post!

 

APC is probably the biggest, and the only one I've had experience with. You may be able to find better with some research.

Select a model with enough wattage to support the devices you have connected to it. This may take some calculation. If you're using more wattage than it is rated for, do not expect the battery to last as long as they claim.

Enough wattage to supply your devices. Insurance for your devices in case of failure. As per Studio's suggestion - integration into the PC platform you are running is a nice perk. AVR as per Adrynalyne's suggestion is nice too.

Probably somewhere along the same lines. The UPS will help in times where you CAN'T perform this procedure.

Yes, a lot of UPS' come with insurance. I've seen up to $75,000 coverage on some of the higher wattage models.

The wikipedia article Baz and I linked to has an abundance of good information.

 

I'd like to say "thank you" to all of those who took the time to write and help me out here. Thanks Mada Milty for answering and Studio T what your saying makes perfect sense now.

I'm ready with cash in hand! I need an UPS and now I know to get one with windows integration, AVR, warranty/guarantee for connected equipment, and the fact that the brand APC is the best.

All I'm stuck thinking about is which one will be good enough for all of the connected equipment?

1. 22" Inch Tv
2. Vcr
3. Nintendo Wii
4. High Speed Dsl Modem
5.17" Pc Monitor
6. Computer [with/ 450 Watt Psu]

I went to a pc store yesterday and looked at some UPS. I asked a guy there why the boxes say 300watt, 400watt, 500watt, because I thought it meant thats how much you can connect to it, or how much each 3 prong hole can give off in power. He said something about how I'm mistaken and that's just the power/time you have to turn your machines off when the UPS switches to it's own power as opposed to the wall outlet's juice.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is I don't want to buy an UPS and overload it with all of this connected equipment. I want one that can handle everything that is connected. That is not to say that I want an UPS that will give me 60 minutes or some very huge length of time to turn off my equipment. No. What I mean is more of handling the connected equipment. For example if I was looking for a surge bar I would want one that could give the right amount of juice to my equipment, without the bar being overloaded with too much power to give [ie: not meeting the equipments needs]. So this is more about power than time... I need an UPS that can power my stuff and give me at least 10-20 mins to shutdown. I honestly do not know how to do the calculations. I may be buying a pretty big 30",40", or 50" plasma tv sometime in the next year so I may get rid of the 22" inch old tube tv I have now. I just don't want to overloard the UPS with power needs it cannot handle during normal use [ie: on a normal day using wall power, not during outages or storms where it goes into battery mode].


Thank You

 

You'd have to figure out the wattage consumed by each device. This can USUALLY be found written on the device somewhere (often near the power connector, or on a label), or in the manual for the device.

Once you have the wattage for each, add them, and select a UPS with at a rating for at least that amount of wattage.

This should cover you in a worst case scenario, as it is typically a peak consumption listed on the device.

 

With your list you should be looking for a UPS in the 1000 watt to 1200 watt range.
To obtain an offline working time of 20 minutes you will have to pay at leat $1500 maybe much more. Many users reckon that the cost breakpoint for an auxiliary gnerator is 15 minutes.
Because the UPS contains powerful batteries it is bulky and need to be operated in an environment with good ventilation.
Don't be tempted by the fake UPS, (also called a standby power supply or SPS) which contains no batteries and boasts a 'switchover time' A true UPS always runs the equipment from the battery via a static invertor and constantly charges the battery, thus isolating the equipment from the power line.
Finally don't plug mains driven printers into the UPS as the mechanism can burn out the invertor.

Personally I'd put the dosh into a savings account and earn some interest until I had to draw it out to pay for a replacement pc. It might be another 10 years before it happens again and you would have to replace the pc by then anyway!

Happy Geeking

Studio T

 

I read your calculations Nein but you don't exactly show you you get the VA amount from the Wattage amount. This is one of your calculations:

"pure-sinusoidal output UPS => 500W PSU + 75W CRT + 30W FirePod = 605W = 855VA [<<<how did you get 855VA from 605W?]

Non-sinusoidal output UPS => 855VA + 25% standard deviation = 1068VA"

Okay I now understand that all of the stuff I'm trying to connect to the UPS is way too much to dish out financially just for my leisure and peace of mind. I actually took a look at all of the equipment I listed on my first post, and jotted down the wattage for each.

450 Watt Psu [Pc]
45 Watt [Nintendo Wii]
18 Watt [Vcr]
200 Watt [17" Crt Monitor] Doesn't say wattage, only says "ac 100-240v 50/60hz 1.6a." So I put what Nein said is usually the wattage of a monitor."
19 Watt [Soundcraft Audio Mixer Board]
115 Watt [Tv]
???? Watt [High Speed DSL Modem] Can't reach to see
20 Watt [Audio System]

Well I can tell you this... I'm not paying $1500 for an UPS that's for damn sure. I'm still going to get one but I'm only going to choose the most important stuff I must protect. My Pc, Computer Monitor, Nintendo Wii, Soundcraft Audio Mixer Board, Audio System, & Internet Modem. And a printer I will buy in the future although I heard from you all that a printer doesn't matter since it goes in the seperate unprotected outlet on the UPS. I hope I'm correct...

Would someone be able to do the calculations for that so I can get the right UPS? I only need at least 5/10 minutes of time to shutdown. Don't forget to add a little bit of wattage to the calculation just in case.

 

UPS's are usually only used to power a PC box and Monitor, (and Router / modem nowadays), and then only to allow a normal power down within 5-10 minutes

Trying to get it to run most of the electrical appliances in the house gets very expensive, as you note.

If I were you, I would re-evaluate your needs (must have going on UPS power) and I think your $$$ outlay will reduce substantially. Bazza

 

What is pure-sinusoidal and non-sinusoidal?

I assume you mean I have to get 1100VA model UPS if I choose to attach the important things I have to protect:

450 Watt Psu [Pc]
45 Watt [Nintendo Wii]
80 Watt [17" Crt Monitor]
19 Watt [Soundcraft Audio Mixer Board]
???? Watt [High Speed DSL Modem] Can't reach to see
20 Watt [Audio System]

& I also assume you mean that I should get a 1400VA model UPS if I attach all of the stuff I originally wanted to and have in my possession:

450 Watt Psu [Pc]
45 Watt [Nintendo Wii]
18 Watt [Vcr]
80 Watt [17" Crt Monitor]
19 Watt [Soundcraft Audio Mixer Board]
115 Watt [Tv]
???? Watt [High Speed DSL Modem] Can't reach to see
20 Watt [Audio System]



Am I correct?


By the way thank you Nein for your time and expertise. Also big thank you's go out to everyone that responded. I'm one step closer to finally choosing an UPS. If I am correct about the stuff you said Nein, this is the one I'd want for a 1100VA model as I really just want to protect what I have to protect:

http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=011087&cid=PS.643

 

So what did you think of this model UPS for my "Have to protect" list?

http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=011087&cid=PS.643

Is this a pure-sinusoidal or non-sinusoidal model UPS? I have no idea what is better pure or non-sinusoidal...

Have to protect list:

450 Watt Psu [Pc]
45 Watt [Nintendo Wii]
80 Watt [17" Crt Monitor]
19 Watt [Soundcraft Audio Mixer Board]
???? Watt [High Speed DSL Modem] Can't reach to see
20 Watt [Audio System]

 

Great Nein,

Well don't tell me what you think of the brand if you feel that's more of a brand/sales opinion, but at least tell me if it's the right "type" that will handle my "have to protect" items. Otherwise I'm still left in the dark as I still don't everything, and I'm trying to register as much information as I can.

http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=011087&cid=PS.643

Have to protect list:

450 Watt Psu [Pc]
45 Watt [Nintendo Wii]
80 Watt [17" Crt Monitor]
19 Watt [Soundcraft Audio Mixer Board]
???? Watt [High Speed DSL Modem] Can't reach to see
20 Watt [Audio System]

 

Whoa their Nein, that's why got you a bad response from MAJOR ATTITUDE before. We don't leave each other in the dark here at Major Geeks. Believe me not everyone here has ultimate knowledge and pc experience. I even bet you anything that you are one of the people who still need information in some aspects as well.

I appreciate the information you gave me but you have to remember that everyone on this forum is at a different level of understanding when it comes to computers. I for one would say my skills are best in the pc components and software area. I do not know anything about UPS and this is actually my first time trying to get one.

The difference between you helping someone out at this site and/or just leaving them stranded is the fact that someone may make the wrong choice. I have not just passed through the information you gave me. I read it and tried to understand it as well as I could during my busy life.

I can give you one more example of how things can go wrong if you do that to people on this forum. Take me for example...

I buy the wrong UPS, and my equipment goes KAPUT.

The end.

Thanks for your information, no thanks for your etiquette.

 

I've never seen a UPS buying decision made to be so complicated.

APC makes an excellent UPS.

They have a configurator on their site. Maybe it can provide a better outlook on this.

http://www.apcc.com/tools/ups_selector/index.cfm

Note it only deals with computer equipment. There are also UPS's for home entertainment.

 

As I said before the APS calculator on their site is not adequate and does not compute what you really want. Other users have said they've encountered the same problem. Honestly when I use that it shows me a bunch of $1000 models... Way too much for wattage I am not even pressing.



By the way Nein come on we don't play games at major geeks. Let's just end it there, it's over with so forget it. We've been here a lot longer than you have, just try to keep your composure from now on and only reply if you have something valuable/nice to say. As I said before thanks for the information... THE END.

 

Nein, stop the rudeness.

I'm growing weary of it.

Superstar, hang tight. Let me tell you what I have, and what UPS I use.

 

My machine:

AMD 64 X2 4400+
2gb PC3500 DDR
550w PSU
256mb Nvidia 7800GTX
200gb hard drive
300gb hard drive
Lightscribe DVD burner
20 inch WS LCD
RCA acable modem
Buffalo wireless router


These are all on my UPS.

Let me reboot, and I'll tell you how much runtime this gives me, and how much spare power I have.

 

Thanks Adrynalyne,

Ahh my good fellow Major Geeks strike again... I love this site.

You know I return the favors when I can.


Thank You

 

Im using an APC Model: Back-UPS NS 1050

 

As you can see, its not even 50% load on the UPS. Thats why I think we are concentrating way to hard on this. Im no expert though.

 

Really nifty software it comes with... I like that!

Well my main focus is buying an UPS that will power these 6 pieces of equipment:

450 Watt Psu [Pc]
45 Watt [Nintendo Wii]
80 Watt [17" Crt Monitor]
19 Watt [Soundcraft Audio Mixer Board]
???? Watt [High Speed DSL Modem] Can't reach to see
20 Watt [Audio System]


I just need to know if this one will support all of that:

http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=011087&cid=PS.643


I spent $3000 on my Pc, $400 on my Nintendo Wii, $600 on my Audio Mixer, $500 on my Audio System [not a stereo - it's a rare piece of audio equipment], and well that's a lot of money for me to lose if something happens to any of them.

 

Yeah, powerchute is pretty nice. It also allows you to self test the unit, set voltage sensitivities (mine are set to extreme levels for max protection), and the reason your UPS kicks in.

To be fair, i think most UPS's these days have software like this. And of course, they have the option to shut down the OS before the battery life is expended.

 

Im no expert. Mine has been great to me, and this provides just as much wattage. I would "think" it would be sufficient. Something you also must consider, it only has four protected outlets. Would that be enough? Because you cant simply plug in a power strip and multiply your ports. You can plug a UPS into a surge protector, but not a surge protector into a UPS(so warns APC, anyway).

 

I guess I'm okay with the Belkin UPS I've been looking at having 6 outlets yet only 4 are battery protected, while 2 are just surge protected. I'll keep my pc/monitor/high speed modem/nintendo wii in the protected outlets and my audio system/audio mixer in the "surge only" outlets.

Everything is interconnected for example the pc and monitor are hooked up to the modem/audio mixer/audio system. So I'm wondering if it makes any sense at all because some of the stuff that is interconnected would be in the protected outlets and some would be on the "surge only" outlets of the UPS. If lightning or power went out on the one's that were "surge only" protected wouldn't that harm the rest of my equipment since they are interconnected?

Or would it be a situation whereas my pc and other "outlet protected" equipment would be fine, yet the one's on the "surge only" outlets would probably be damaged if the lights went out or something? [ie: not affecting the chain or equipment]

 

Will the contestants please return to their corners for a commercial break.

Any of your equipment that has an old fashioned transformer - rectifier power supply will perform badly if at all on a non sinusoidal supply.

The surge limited outlets of the Belkin will be sinusoidal
The battery protected outlets will not.

I would expect the audio kit to have the old fashioned psu.
The VCR may or may not
Any mains adapter (eg for the router, nintendo) may or may not, they usually say switching regulator if they are not.

The TV, PC and Monitor probably have switching regulators which wil lrun off the square wave supply from the belkin.

Hope this helps.

Studio T

 

Hi:

As I understand it and was mentioned earlier, nothing protects you from a lightning strike.
All you can do for that is to make sure all devices are unplugged from the wall and disconnect your “to the wall” phone and cable TV connections too.
A surge protector basically protects you from surge of power coming to your home when the power is restored after an outage.
A UPS will allow you the time to safely shut down your gear normally when a power outage occurs.
I happen to like Tripp-Lite stuff. They make excellent gear. They take into account that extra space is needed to accommodate power bricks.
I have a number of these around the house:
Surge Suppressors:
http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=143
http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=144

I’ve just ordered 2 of these:
UPS/Surge:
http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=3142

Happy trailz,

 

Actually it does more than this. A surge can occur for a variety of reasons. If the supply is suddenly interrupted because someone has dug up / blown down the feed cable or lightning has destroyed the line transformer the resultant energy in the system will reflect causing a surge. The switching on/off of a heavily inductive load such as a freezer moter also causes this to a smaller degree.

Studio T

 

How do you know when a surge protector has had it over time? [ie: of no use anymore]

 

Some power companies offer protection equipment also, they usually rent it by the month and it goes inline into the house. I guess Florida and Iowa are the worst two states for lightning. A lightning rod is a good idea, or maybe a backup generator. I know that sounds crazy, until you need one. Comcast said not to run the cable through a surge suppressor. Maybe a good homeowners policy that would cover such an eventuality. For that PC I would get a UPS, not an expensive top of the line model, but something middle of the road. I like a good bottle of wine, just don't like dropping a few bengies on one, thats all.
djb

 

Theoretically, its supposed to stop working altogether.

 

This is a question for anyone that has an UPS or knows the answer to this...

Does an UPS have to be the only cord connected to the outlet on your wall? Or can you say... plug an UPS to the same wall outlet that has a separate surge protector as well?

 

Yeah you can plug the UPS into a surge protector, np.

 

A long thread, but I think there have been a few points left unaddressed...

Studiot commented on the difference between a UPS and a SPS in post #16, but I don't think he said it quite right. Both types have batteries. In a true UPS (uninterruptible power supply), the load is carried by the battery, which is continually recharged by utility power when it's available. In a SPS (stand-by power supply), the load remains connected to the utility power as long as it is available, and switches the load to battery power when utility power is unavailable. Most power backup units available for the consumer marketplace are SPSs, not UPSs.

Once consequence of this approach is that the surge protection on the battery-powered outlets on a SPS is no better than the surge protection on the outlets on the unit that do not have battery backup. The same surge protection is used on both sets of outlets. Only a true UPS provides complete isolation from powerline surges -- and a true UPS is far more expensive than you or I are willing to pay for, Superstar!

Let's take that a bit farther. It also means that you don't need to pay for backup power protection when all you need is surge protection. If it doesn't need shutdown time, save some money and provide surge protection only. The only things in your list, Superstar, that need battery protection are the computer and the monitor. It won't matter if the rest go instantly dark when the power goes out, as long as there is some surge protection in place. For those two items, a SPS with 500watts/700VA capacity would probably be sufficient if you're not looking for long runtimes. And if that's all you're providing battery backup for, APC's sizing calculator will be just fine.

Myself, I use an APC Back-UPS BE 750 BB-CN -- which I recently upgraded from a ES350 when the battery had aged enough (after 4 years in service) that the runtime got uncomfortably short. It supplies battery protection only to my computer, LCD monitor, ADSL adaptor and router. Everything else gets surge protection only -- and there's a lot of stuff plugged in behind my desk. I have a separate Belkin surge protector for much of it. The Belkin unit also provides surge protection on my ADSL line. I could put the ADSL adaptor and router on surge protection only, but I have spare capacity in my battery backup and they draw little current -- so I can afford the luxury of completing the download if the power goes out in the middle of one.

For an indication of surge protection capability, look for the UL 1778 listing in the specs or on the label. Last I saw, that was the best you're going to get in surge protection in consumer-grade goods, with or without battery backup.

Surge bar guarantees? I wouldn't put a lot of stock in them. If they really are a form of insurance, they will likely be regulated as such. Check with your state Insurance Commissioner or provincial Superintendent of Insurance. The last time I read one of those guarantees, it looked like it covered the owner against only a surge. It looked a lot to me like you would have to prove that it was a surge (and not something else) that took your equipment out. How are you going to do that unless you have monitoring/recording equipment hooked up to the utility service in your house?

The $75,000 figure you see in some of those guarantees looks good -- but all it does is limit the value of the attached equipment the manufacturer will replace -- if you can collect on the guarantee, that is. But if you have only $2,000 worth of equipment attached, that's all you get. And we're probably talking about replacement cost for like kind and quality of equipment -- not your original purchase cost. Read the fine print to see what that guarantee will really cover.

Somebody wondered aloud about the relationship between watts and VA. In a non-reactive load (like, say, a lightbulb) VA (volt-amperes) equates directly to watts. But with a reactive load, like the power supply unit in a computer or TV, a power factor enters into the equation. The power factor depends on the specific load, but for consumer computer equipment, it's in the range of 60%-70%. In other words, your 1000VA backup unit will carry a 600-700watt load. APC assumes a power factor of 60%. APC cheerfully admits that it has adopted a conservative approach with respect to the applicable power factor to ensure that the battery backup unit is not overloaded.

How do you tell when a surge bar has packed it in? It depends entirely on the technology used for surge protection. The cheap ones use metal-oxide varistors (MOVs) to dump excess voltage to ground. They work fine -- for a while. But every surge a MOV shorts to ground heats up the MOV, and eventually it stops working. But there's no way to test a MOV in place, and it does not announce its death. The MOV-type surge bar keeps delivering power to the attached appliances, but can no longer shunt a surge to ground when the MOV has died. So guess where the next surge goes?

More expensive (and more complex) surge-protection equipment doesn't rely on MOVs. The better units will warn you when they can no longer protect the attached load, or will simply stop delivering power to the attached equipment. Read the label and fine print carefully to find out what you've got. If the surge bar doesn't tell you anything about the technology used or what it will do if it takes too big a hit, it's probably MOV-based. Avoid it.

And can you plug a backup power supply into a surge bar? APC tells you not to do that with the Back-UPS units. (Sorry to contradict you, Adrynalyne -- or maybe your APC unit isn't as fussy as mine.) APC's instruction is quite explicit with mine: plug the battery backup unit directly into the wall outlet -- no surge bar or power strip in between.

APC also recommends against plugging surge bars into a Back-UPS -- it's quite possible that the downstream surge bar's protection circuitry will react badly to the non-sinusoidal output of the battery backup unit when the utility power goes out. However, I know of no reason a surge bar and a Back-UPS couldn't be plugged into the same wall outlet.

Oh, by the way, Superstar -- I've had occasion to contact APC's customer support. It was superb. Better than any I've run across anywhere else. They definitely went the extra mile for me. Belkin has a good rep, but I've never talked to their customer support people.

 

Of the three I've had, the only warnings (on all of them) was to not plug a bar into the UPS, not the other way around. But to each their own I can see it hurting to have a bar plugged into the UPS by overloading it, but not so much plugging the UPS into it. better safe than sorry, i suppose.

Also, I think you are downplaying the usefulness of a UPS--to provide clean power (I recommended a unit with AVR). When the voltage sags, such as in a brownout, it can damage equipment, just as much as a surge. It doesn't need to have software, any electrical equipment can be hurt. Complete blackouts are better than voltage dropping too much.

 

Ok. Here is the scoop. I guess I saw the second part as an acceptable risk for the extra protection provided.

APC recommends against the use of any surge protector, power strip or extension cord being plugged into the output of any APC Back-UPS and Smart-UPS products. This document will explain why.

Plugging a surge protector into your UPS: Surge protectors filter the power for surges and offer EMI/RFI filtering but do not efficiently distribute the power, meaning that some equipment may be deprived of the necessary amperage it requires to run properly – causing your attached equipment (computer, monitor, etc) to shutdown or reboot. If you need to supply additional receptacles on the output of your UPS, we recommend using Power Distribution Units (PDU's). PDUs evenly distribute the amperage among the outlets, while the UPS will filter the power and provide surge protection. PDU’s use and distribute the available amperage more efficiently, allowing your equipment to receive the best available power to maintain operation.
However, please note that the UPS is designed to handle a limited amount of equipment. Please be cautious about plugging too much equipment into the UPS to avoid an overload condition. To understand the load limit of your particular model UPS please consult the User's Manual, or visit APC's Product Page at www.apcc.com/products.

Plugging your UPS into a surge protector: In order for your UPS to get the best power available, you should plug your UPS directly into the wall receptacle. Plugging your UPS into a surge protector may cause the UPS to go to battery often when it normally should remain online. This is because other, more powerful equipment may draw necessary voltage away from the UPS which it requires to remain online.

 

Interesting information there ROB M and Adrynalyne. I'd have to say that's the best information I've seen in my thread so far. Thank you so very much...

I've come to a realization, and that is the fact that I cannot spend much money on an UPS to protect everything I need to protect. After reading both of your newest posts I've opted to say "screw this" to all of my equipment and only protect the two main bad boys I have to keep safe... My pc and my monitor.

450 Watt Psu [Pc]
80 Watt [17" Crt Monitor]

Will this be good enough?

http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=011087&cid=PS.643

If so I will pick it up this week. I'll obviously plug the modem in it as well so I can have that battery backup on if lights go out and I can finish a download like ROB M said. hehehehehe... Smart man.


By the way was NEIN banned... I don't see his many posts in this thread anymore... They're gone!

 

Thank you, Adrynalyne. I had not meant to downplay that aspect of a backup power supply. Clean power was the primary reason I installed one -- around here, power outages are rare, but the lights flicker entirely too much for my liking.

My understanding is that the APC products we're both using will go to battery any time the utility voltage goes out of range (for me, that's 97-138 volts) and will go back to normal operation when the voltage returns to that range. Yours perhaps can use battery power to top up utility power when the latter sags. Mine won't -- it just switches to battery when the mains voltage drops below the specified minimum.

You're quite right about the potential for damage caused by an undervoltage. Electrical motors are particularly susceptible. They're what the engineers call a reactive load: the further below nominal the voltage drops, the more current they will draw to sustain the load on them. And eventually, they overheat.

And thanks for doing the research I didn't do to find out a bit about why APC recommends as it does with respect to surge bars attached to an APC unit.

Superstar -- I do hope we haven't scared you off of surge protectors. I wouldn't dream of operating sensitive electronics without one. But then, the Belkin you're looking at may be able to provide surge protection for all of your equipment that you're not providing battery backup for.

But if you do need an additional surge protector, plug it into the wall. Don't daisy-chain it with another. IMHO, that is.

 

Rob is right. This has been an interesting thread to contribute to with much yet not said. It is interesting to remember the differences between UK / US power line arrangements and to be brought up to date on current US practise. Damage due to energy reflections when a power line is suddenly broken is more likely in the US because the currents flowing are double those in the UK (120V US v 230V UK) although the shock risk to humans is lower.

UPS v SPS - Yes Rob I am trying to simplify an ivory tower definition.

Standby Power Supplies comprise an auxiliary source (battery, magnetic storage or generator or even a combination) and a switch. If the auxiliary startup and the switchover are both fast enough the user does not experience an interruption. Many cheap ‘UPS’ on the market (including the belkin under discussion) work on this principle.

A switchover time of less than 10 milliseconds is good to aim for.

In a true UPS the powerline does not directly supply the equipment. It supplies an energy reservoir (battery, pumped storage whatever) The equipment is always supplied from the reservoir (no switch) so the supply is truly uninterruptible. Loss of the primary supply merely means loss of feed to the reservoir until it runs out or the supply is replaced. Such supplies are bulky and much more expensive.

It is worth observing that the home user in general wants to protect his equipment, over his data, whereas with the commercial user it is the other way around. So their respective failure criteria are different. Protection systems are / were developed for the commercial user with his priorities in mind.

A few fact and figures

A decent computer pc should be able to run the system within the following power line disturbances (US voltages)

Voltage drop to 80 volts for 2 seconds or less
Voltage drop to 70 volts for 0.5 seconds or less
Voltage surge to 143 volts for up to 1 second

The system can protect itself against

Full power outage
Any lesser voltage drop (called a brownout)
A spike of up to 2500 volts

Source Scott Mueller.

The last failure I attended was when a utility company dug up the power cable outside and office with four pc and associated kit running on a network. The only damage was one hard drive scrambled because the user was switching users at the time.

It is worth noting that in the US there are still many areas with 2 wire AC power lines (NO EARTH) All protection systems are designed to operate ‘to earth’ and so the installer should provide a good local earth if installing in a 2 wire supplied system.

This reliance on earth has another effect. A lightning strike nearby will temporarily change (raise) the earth ‘value’ by several thousand volts. This is how damage is caused and why equipment should be disconnected in a thunderstorm.
A call out this February to an installation of two Dells, ISDN, and a Sony supersize TV. All were off at the time. The ISDN was blown off the wall, two motherboards and TV mainboard and various aux kit went, despite ‘protection bars’.

A good protection bar will have an indicator light to show if a voltage surge has occurred greater than the rating of the MOV. It will conform to UL 1449.

Another fact from the UK National House Building Council – Builders now incorporate 38 sockets (wall outlets) into a new house. The average 30 years ago was 19. Like the song about the Nam war?
The best arrangement is always one socket (outlet) per connection. You can get an electrician to incorporate more robust protection that any trailing bar.

Studio T

 

Yeah, clean power was my primary motive too. My old house (well it was built in 2004) had heck with it. I lost three computers to it till I figured it out. Once I got this current UPS, I stopped having problems. I like this particular one because I can specify what values the battery will kick in (over voltage and under). Now I swear by AVR.

 

This is the first time I've quoted myself ever on any forum. This was the first post, and repeated question I've been asking for almost a week now [my quote]. No one has answered me at all yet about this for almost a week.

Please I need an answer, it's summer and there are storms almost every week now and I don't want to lose anything due to any problems. I only have around $100 in mind to spend and the UPS in my quote is along those lines. Please tell me if it's what I need, and if it will work. PLEASE CLICK THE LINK AND PLEASE LET ME KNOW.

 

Actually, I said I felt it was sufficient in post 32

With just those two, I'm almost 100 percent certain that it is quite sufficient.