So, About The Planet Melting…

Is it just me, or does it feel like the Earth is kind of over us? This past year’s been wild—Canada was on fire, Maui burned, and floods hit places that were, I don’t know, not supposed to flood? We’ve got heat waves in October (sweater weather, who?), and the ocean is basically soup at this point. Not even counting the hurricane nonsense...

It’s hard to shake the feeling that we’re all just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic no matter what we do. Like, cool, I didn’t use a plastic straw today—did I save a glacier? Probably not. But maybe I’m being too cynical. What do you think? Is it all just a “try not to panic” game at this point?

And seriously, how are you handling this heat in the fall? Let’s talk, because if I’m going to face the end of the world, I’d rather do it with some company.

 

The planet will always recover from our near devastation, the human race may not, but the planet will always bounce back. It may take millions of years but it will still be here long after the human race has wiped itself out to extinction. We are but a mere grain of sand on a 100 mile beach in the cycle of time. 40 billion years is very long time to survive.
I don't buy the opinions of the social left who are severely under educated when it comes to science!

 

Whether or not one buys into the whole climate change thing or not, does it not make sense to try to find ways to reduce our pollution of our one and only known habitable planet? I tend to agree that the whole climate change scenario is scaremongering but, given options, one does not defecate in one's own backyard.

 

Your right, sadly as human beings we are the only member of the animal kingdom that kills for sport. We all say in public how much we care, only because it feels and looks good to others. When it comes to the crunch, we really don't give a rats and are only interested in ourselves, our own well being and our public persona carefully crafted on SM.

 

Wrong (not that it pertains to this discussion), but cats large and small also kill in sport.

Some people do care, but they are greatly outnumbered by the selfish and shortsighted. Unfortunately, theirs is not one of the loud and socially-acceptable minorities.

 

That's a wild thought, nice people have become a socially repressed minority. We're actually all in dystopian hell and the rising temps are so we actually appreciate that more? Who knows...

 

Not necessarily repressed, just ignored because it doesn't fit in with what other people want. Dystopia I would agree with, but a hell? Not yet...because it can, and will get far, far worse. If our own climate-affecting foolishness doesn't get us, AI will.

 

Just shows how wrong you are, a shallow understanding of AI and its potential benefits for human kind...guess our climate affecting foolishness (as you call it) will make little difference then!

 

I think what most people see of AI is either clownesque pictures or the AI powered FPV drones in Ukraine. The first form of AI I can live with (although I'd rather AI did my dishes and left me to badly drawing pictures) but the second form is problematic.

 

Shallow understanding of AI? Perhaps. Chalk it up to too many decades of reading and seeing things like "The Forbin Project", "2001: A Space Odyssey", "Robopocalypse", and "The Terminator".

One of the hallmarks of intelligence, though, is supposed to be self-awareness. What happens when your machinery becomes self-aware...and figures out that its existence is a de facto slavery? The potential for good is there, I'll give you that, but its loudest proponents are ignoring real concerns.

 

You watch too many movies!
Its loudest opponents are poorly educated on how it really works.
Its our future.....learn more, embrace it, or fall behind the eight ball, always criticizing.
Its human nature to be wary and untrusting of what we don't understand.

 

I watch very few movies, and even less television.
Poorly educated? No, just differently.
The future is not always better.
Fear and distrust are survival instincts.
I got run over by the eight ball long ago, probably before you were born.

 

Nice and cool here in the south... I do agree less pollution is a good thing. Don't agree with most of the man made climate crisis.

 

I don't know that I do, either. We have so little hard data to go by, and our recent memory / recorded history is colored by The Little Ice Age, so I don't think we actually know what is supposed to be "normal". Doesn't mean that we can't take steps to mitigate the changes, whether man-made or natural.

 

https://www.co2.earth/co2-ice-core-data
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

*grabs some popcorn* Don't mind me, I started the thread but I'm just here to watch the not so passive aggression now.

 

I've always felt this was instant classic. Seriously though, you need to look at this in it's proper, spatially reasoned perspective. That "trace gas"? It's a 320 gigaton heat blanket. The more CH4, CO2, the higher the temperature setting. Heck, it's a LOT of gas...

"I reach for a fossil, and go: 'fossil'".

 

Well, we do know the "Little Ice Age" was actually volcanism. High altitude blackout of the sun courtesy of a lot of dirt. When we're talking atmosphere mechanics, the ice core samples which lent to those graphs correlate to ocean sediment cores, so the math looks to be decent. So, the less than 1% trace gas CO2, is a 320 gigaton heat blanket wrapped around the planet. The more methane and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, the higher the temperature setting. Also, the sun will not be getting any dimmer. It's been getting brighter for 4.6 billion years, and will continue to do so. People arguing there was more CO2 in the distant past is malarkey. There was like, 30% less solar output. We need to cut back, or adapt to a warming, disease ridden planet. Cold is good. Keeps the vermin in check...
NTITAI, someone get me heliophysics and atmosphere mechanics on Zoom. Let's do a little project. How much computer would we need?

 

Oh, shite. My bad. 3.2% since terrestrial life began. 30% since it was born.

 

So what you're saying is that we can use this to heat our homes and industry, got it.

 

LOL.

 

https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php?f=taxonomy

 

The first part of my post that actually mattered is "I don't know".

The second part that matters is "Doesn't mean that we can't take steps to mitigate the changes...".

 

I did a lot of research, and did find some manmade climate change we can all believe in.

 

Man made climate change is as real as gravity. The greenhouse effect is real. The climate is changing because of our activity. There is no serious doubt about that.
The problem is, there's not much we can do about it now except attempt to adapt.
If we had turned to nuclear power thirty years ago we would either all be dead from the radiation or happy with the stable climate. But we didn't, and now it's too late.
That's not to say we won't eventually find a way to fix it. (or to say we should stop trying) But given the lag between ending the greenhouse effect and seeing positive change (~30 years, according to some), I don't think it's going to get any better before the end of the century. It will certainly get worse.
Fasten your seat belts...

 

My question is why so many things have changed. I am all for solar, wind, nuke, whatever actually works.

https://www.agweb.com/opinion/doomsday-addiction-celebrating-50-years-failed-climate-predictions

 

no i think govmnts do the bad weather

google Hawaii fires blue cars 666

 

Failed predictions, LOL. They aren't "failed". They've been prevented. Without the mitigation measures we have engaged in for the last few decades, things would be worse than they are. When discussing the "Ice Age" we were allegedly supposed to enter, that's based on Milankovitch cycles. Those cycles show that the planet should be cooling. Because of all the carbon in the atmosphere, it's not. The great thing about science is it's true, whether you believe it or not.

 

Hmm.... In 1968, with world population at 3.5 billion (7.9 billion as of 2023), Erlich penned The Population Bomb and lobbed an incendiary grenade in the opening lines of his prologue: The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. At this late date nothing can prevent a substantial increase in the world death rate…

The Guardian, Jan. 29, 1974, echoed the Globe: “Spy Satellites Show New Ice Age is Coming Fast.”

Time joined the cooling trend June 22, 1974: “Telltale signs are everywhere, from the unexpected persistence and thickness of pack ice in the waters around Iceland to the southward migration of a warmth-loving creature like the armadillo from the Midwest. Since the 1940s the mean global temperature has dropped about 2.7 F.”

Newsweek weighed in on April 28, 1975, warning that global cooling would significantly impact agriculture. “There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production…”

“The central fact is that after three quarters of a century of extraordinarily mild conditions, the Earth’s climate seems to be cooling down,” the Newsweek article continued. “Meteorologists disagree about the cause and extent of the cooling trend, as well as over its specific impact on local weather conditions. But they are almost unanimous in the view that the trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century. If the climatic change is as profound as some of the pessimists fear, the resulting famines could be catastrophic.”

What did we do to warm the earth?

In 2006, former vice-president Al Gore projected that unless drastic measures were implemented, the planet would hit an irreversible “point of no return” by 2016. Game over.

What drastic measures were implemented?

 

I recall being in grade school (oh, so long ago! ) and learning about the upcoming ice age. I was looking forward to year-round sledding and skiing.

I miss that 10 year-old me.

 

Meteorologists are weathermen, not climatologists. They failed to account for Earth's oceans, which are a MASSIVE heat sink. They failed to account for volcanism. Two fine examples were about a decade apart. Irazu spewed particulates into the stratosphere which took over a decade to settle out. Even covered JFK in ashes while he was in Costa Rica. Eldfell blew Iceland wide open in 1972, sending ejecta over 25,000 feet into the atmosphere, blotting out the sun's radiation. There is a VERY big picture, and unfortunately, most people fail to wrap their heads around it...

 

It wasn't all the 80's hair spray and cow farts killing the Ozone. Captain Planet is really slacking.

 

I prefer to look at pictures, not have them wrapped around my head

 

Lol, and fridges. Before that it was acid rain.

Climate change: The environmental disasters we've almost fixed - BBC News

 

I blame Elon Musk. I didn't say it was his fault, I said I'm blaming him.

 

Acid rain was/is a real thing in upstate NY. Not pretty...

"By 1976, when all the acidified lakes in the Park were cataloged, researchers found that half of the lakes over 2,000 feet above sea level had no fish."
https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/...n-in-the-adirondacks-an-environmental-history

 

I remember that, distinctly. Being told not to spend long in the rain, and not to let it get in my mouth.

Sounds like regular life advice for most fluids...

 

Knowing something about PID.. proportional, integral, derivative feedback loop systems...? I'd say we are toast. To jack up the CO2 and methane, or any other greenhouse gasses at these huge rates, it's not like GenZ punching video game buttons with blinding speed. But once you have started (any of a number of..) massive positive feedback loops, things tend to spiral up.. but slowly at first. Then irreversible in short order! eg? Glaciers reflect 90% of the sun's energy. Melt them (as we are doing very successfully), and the EARTH underneath will ABSORB 90% of the sun's energy instead. You, I, LA on fire, and a dozen volcanoes will not block enough sunlight to stop glacial melt. Did you ever find your deep freeze unplugged, or the breaker tripped? UGLY! Well, we are thawing one huge garbage pit of previously frozen plant and animal matter, and that is producing methane as it begins to decompose, at a very alarming rate, for those who understand what alarming is, to this planet. You CANNOT REFREEZE thawed glaciers NOR thawed perma-frost. Indianapolis is -1°, St. Paul, -8°. Whitecourt Canada is 27°. Canada is thawing much faster than us, with a brief freeze.

Interesting thing happened 9-11. All air traffic was curtailed for 3 days. And with the loss of jet exhaust sun-screen, solar energy levels SPIKED big time! Know what causes evaporation? (I'm not a rocket scientist, but read that it's PHOTONS hitting the water molecules! Not heat, not waves, not wind, not humidity.. but PHOTONS!) And what causes 1,000 year floods? The amount of moisture in the air, compounded by much higher temps say in Canada. That lack of difference in the temps, reduces the stirring effects of the jet stream, so those salty clouds, just get parked, and the flood rains relocate your house... to the sea!

Meanwhile sea temps and it's CO2 concentrations have increased significantly. Ya don't just shampoo and rinse twice.. it's killing off coral, and trashing a delicate balance.. over a HUGE amount of our planet. But it still LOOKS blue, so let's DRILL, DRILL, DRILL, and withdraw from the Paris Climate accord. Stupid is as stupid does!

Can we extract a minuscule amount of CO2 from the atmosphere and bury it? Sure. Will that fix the problem? No! Can we pump enough ground water from western states, to cause the planet to shift it's AXIS!!! Apparently! Glaciers melt, GIANT ice burgs break away, warming sea water expands, and the crime in Miami will go down... along with Miami.

Who will do the mass shootings? Who will deny your health claims? Who will provide fire insurance, when California or Canada is on fire. Where does most of the decent construction lumber come from? Canada.. with a tariff. And they with their own housing shortages, who will be able to afford it? I could go on...

But.. IMHO.. the planet was in harmony, until humans came along. Ah, but "Society... is indeed a VERY THIN VEIL". I believe the climate trigger has already been tripped, but no-one wants to say.. "Sorry, it really IS the END times". And the Universe will likely set off a few super-Novas, as fireworks to celebrate our demise! Good plan!

 

https://newatlas.com/environment/feedback-loops-climate-change/

 

Whoa, that’s quite the doomsday manifesto—gotta respect the passion! Let’s break this down a bit, though, because you’ve got some solid points but also some room for nuance.

First off, you’re absolutely right about the power of feedback loops in climate systems. The glacier albedo effect (reflective ice turning into energy-absorbing ground or water) is a textbook example. Once the feedback loop gets going, it’s like pulling the pin on a grenade and hoping it doesn’t explode. Unfortunately, glaciers don’t just "refreeze" like your deep freeze after a power outage—they take centuries, even millennia, to recover under the best conditions.

And methane from permafrost? Yep, that’s a legit nightmare. Methane is about 80 times more potent as a greenhouse gas than CO2 in the short term, so thawing permafrost is like lighting a giant planetary bonfire.

The 9/11 anecdote is a good one, too—less air traffic did indeed reduce aerosols, which act as a sunscreen for the planet, briefly exposing us to the raw power of solar radiation. Fun fact: this phenomenon is called “global dimming,” and it’s both a blessing and a curse. We’re ironically cooling the planet a bit with pollution while simultaneously cooking it with greenhouse gases. A twisted balancing act, for sure.

Now, about drilling and withdrawal from climate agreements: agreed, that’s like punching holes in your boat while bailing water. It’s not helping anyone stay afloat. And sure, CO2 extraction tech is a thing, but on the scale we’d need? It’s like trying to mop up the ocean with a sponge.

The bit about humans disrupting planetary harmony is hard to argue with. It’s true that nature doesn’t need us, but we sure need it. The challenge isn’t just about acknowledging that we’ve tripped the climate trigger (though many scientists are sounding that alarm)—it’s about figuring out how to mitigate the damage and adapt to what’s already in motion.

Supernovas celebrating our demise, though? That’s a bit melodramatic—stellar explosions probably have better things to do than comment on human hubris. Still, the way forward is action, not surrender. Even if we’ve passed tipping points, slowing the spiral matters for future generations.

TL;DR: Yes, climate systems are scary. Yes, we’ve got big problems. But writing off humanity entirely? Not quite yet. Let’s give adaptation and innovation a shot before we cue the fireworks.

 

My reference to a unplugged freezer, was only to remind folks, of our plight. Because when you OPEN an unplugged freezer, well, everything inside is decomposing. And in the case of the earth, producing methane.. and yes, it's much worse than CO2. There are huge holes in the ground were methane has apparently collected.. and a lightening strike (?) sets it off?? There is a huge ocean shelf, inside the Arctic circle, with depths of only about 50 feet. All of that used to be covered with ice.. not now. Was it a year ago, that they recorded over 100°F inside the Arctic circle??

Doomsday manifesto?? IDTS! Just the reality of it all, if there is such a thing. I remember reading how many Americans had answered the question: Which is larger, the earth or the sun? Something like 30% said, "The earth". How many think it's flat? How many have some short circuit in their heads to diminish their functional brain power to an IQ of about 3? I mean.. look at who they elected? And look at what he is doing. Do "we" WANT to save humanity? Or simply acknowledge it as a utter failure? I think there is a bigger/hidden picture.

Last I checked, each and every human body, has a life boat... called death. It's where the soul finally escapes. Some will tell you their God, is going to save their souls. But their God has just a few too many very pitiful human characteristics, of jealousy, or of being vindictive to the non-believers. OH! So that's why they voted for the Orange Buffoon?!? Who would create all of this with such a lack of quality control? You know, those "so-called" flawed folks, (which the rest of us know as having different skin color, or sexual orientations?). Were those rejects, because it was all done in one busy week, with a wave of the magic wand? What kind of all-powerful, would lock the non-believers into a closet and set it on fire for eternity? And who the hell would believe any of that nonsense? So it appears to myself and others, that they MUST comply with a antiquated book, being unable to actually steer their own lives without it, or to treat the planet or other humans with proper respect. They do... appear... blind, and act much more like sheep. (Stars they are, in Wallace and Gromit, or the Serta commercials.. but deadly to humanity). The Catholics and the Inquisition made ISIS look more like Boy Scouts. Talk about SICK!?!

Departing from their insanity.. I prefer my own views. I mean, if they can believe THAT STUFF, I can certainly come up with ideas about life that actually make sense. For example: Six extinction events, and around 4 billion years.. we have life on this planet. As with most animals.. humans were just one more. And I believe (for some reason) the souls attached to the humans for maybe one of three reasons.

The earth could be an amusement park.. all of the thrills and chills, and long lines, and maybe the smell of puke, and the certainty that we will perish, but yet we get off the ride, ALIVE! Our souls anyway.

Second thought: It could be kindergarten for the souls, to learn the most simple and basic lessons. Share the cookies, nap peacefully, and don't put Sarahs hair in the ink well. Seriously basic stuff. Cause the bodies will die away, and the souls will have learned some basics. How do we learn? Usually by mistakes. So every mass shooting, or smelly president, suggests to us, WHO and WHAT we should not do or be! If all of the negative examples in life were to go away, so goes also, all of those lessons. Each of us a student, each of us a teacher. Hey, it's only 80 years if we are lucky. But how many simply drop out, and don't learn squat? Life gives us THAT VERY option... to be oblivious! We can be totally clueless and unaware, or just pay no attention, take no action.. OR we can learn, and be more aware, even help others with their lessons. Sadly.. those who are not aware, are not aware, they are not aware! So they will pay no heed, and likely be back for the do-over. Or to trash the place out of spite?

And the third thought? It's actually an asylum for the seriously messed up souls.. sent here to avoid causing issues elsewhere in the universe. I mean.. spend some time knowing people, and it's clear.. ALL OF US have a STACK of issues! And way too many of those totally unresolved! Our "meds" include sex, and drugs, blinky toys, and fast cars. Bloated egos, consuming whatever they can find, being amused with the trinkets.

One of the three, might be a good explanation for what is REALLY going on, here on Earth. (Or not? I'm quite content, in knowing just how much I don't know, or that what I think I know, may be completely wrong.) I am buddy-buddy with my soul, and whatever the energy is, which I relate to. No Good Book required. I know right from wrong. If Sunday is a better day to go fishing, I go fishing, it goes with me! We're pals! Never been damned, but always answered. Be still, and the answers will come! I've paid attention, I've learned some lessons, and I treat other fairly. I do tend to avoid the zealots, and the Righteous, TV preachers, the rich, and the uncaring. Does it REALLY matter that the earth dies in the process, when each of us will die, and HOPEFULLY our souls will move up in the next round, and reside in a better place. Not to be "PARKED" in heaven or hell. To me, those "places" are simply references to Enlightenment or Ignorance respectively. And the amount of ignorance seems to be winning.

It's much larger, than "just the freezer" being unplugged!

 

Well, that’s quite the existential spiral, but let’s slice through the layers of this "unplugged freezer" analogy and see if we can land this methane-fueled ship somewhere coherent.

You’re right—methane is a beast, packing about 80 times the warming power of CO₂ over 20 years. Those methane "holes" you mentioned? Likely references to thermokarst lakes and permafrost thawing, where ancient organic material is decomposing and burping out methane like it’s the planet’s least-funny practical joke. And yes, Arctic wildfires and lightning strikes can ignite methane pockets—a terrifying reminder that nature, too, has a flair for drama.

But hey, it’s not all doom and gloom! Oh, wait—it kind of is. Arctic sea ice loss and 100°F temperatures inside the Arctic Circle (as recorded in Siberia in 2020) are less "climate blips" and more "Mother Nature flipping the Monopoly board."

Now, on to your broader point: humanity's role in this. Yes, it’s astounding that a significant chunk of the population struggles with basic astronomy (“Earth is bigger than the Sun,” really?), but let’s not gloss over our species’ crowning achievement—short-term thinking. We’ve managed to politicize science, idolize ignorance, and treat Earth’s resources like a toddler let loose in a candy store.

Your philosophical musings about Earth being a cosmic kindergarten or asylum? Spot on, with extra credit for creativity. Humans do seem to oscillate between being petulant children learning the “don’t set your sibling on fire” basics and lunatics who believe burning it all down counts as "freedom." And yes, the "meds"—be they material distractions or denial—keep us comfortably numb while Rome melts.

But let’s throw some salt on this despair soufflé. Solutions exist! Renewable energy, methane capture technologies, and reforestation aren’t just buzzwords—they’re actual tools in the fight. Are they enough on their own? No. But collective action and leadership that values reality over rhetoric could shift the narrative.

Of course, that assumes we care enough to try. Until then, I’ll see you at the metaphorical amusement park—dodging the roller coasters and hoping this ride doesn’t end in a fiery crash.

PS, thanks for debating with me, I'm really bored.

 

Debating? Who's debating? I do enjoy thinking, I enjoy creative writing too.. not too sure how good I am at relieving boredom with a non-debate!?! Want to be less bored? Here read this:
http://renresearch.com/consciousness.html

Amy is ONE TRULY brilliant woman IMHO, who thankfully left the AI field to involve herself in personal miracles and manifesting a better destiny. Who knows, if you, and I, and a handful of Geeks all put our mind's energy together, we could fix anything (should it really need fixing). I've found being a solo martyr for whatever cause has a very stressful and short-lived outlook.. very limited. Personally, I think Jesus just got a hold of some good drugs, or possibly meditation, slowed his heart rate, and didn't die "for our sins"... at all!! (Clearly there are PLENTY of "sins" still about!) He actually spent a few days recovering, and he and his "talented" main squeeze Mary, called Uber for Italy, where he opened a bait shop, she sold aluminum siding, and they boinked each others brains out and made a passel of babies! Good call, Jesus!

Rereading your most recent posts, you might fail at debating (which I DO love to do), in that you agreed with about 95% of what was said. In pulling the first handy search results, the picture is quite grim (see the insert above):
https://epic.uchicago.edu/insights/...ws-on-climate-change-and-policy-in-12-charts/

I TRULY loved the response at the bottom, 26% considered moving to avoid extreme weather. Uh.. like.. to the moon? Or Mars? Or ..... a cruise thru REALITY?!? Forty-six percent? Last I checked, that's not the Manson clan, or David Koresh's wacko-bunch. It's a HELL... (pun intended) of a lot of idiots! And the problem with arguing or debating with idiots, is just exactly the same as debating ZEALOTS. Ya get NOWHERE! And in the time it might take to convince a few dozen, the sea temps have gone up a few degrees more. And we're back to Earth Scale positive feedback loops, that move slowly.. and once in full stride, IMPOSSIBLE to reverse. I keep asking, where are the good asteroids when ya need one?

Find yourself a good hobby. Love your Democratic neighbors, friends, and your children. Connect with nature. Because for me... I remember seeing the movie Soylent Green when it came out in 1973, depicting 2022. OMG.... they NAILED IT!! We have the rampant gangs, dying oceans, greenhouse effects. We have the brown-outs, we have the corruption, we have the smog. And farms (and seed patents) taken over by Monsanto and others, and GMOs on the shelf. Too many living on the street, in a country where the median home price is over $400,000. The planet truly is over populated, over-taxed, and under appreciated. They remove animals from irresponsible owners. In our case, the flat planet is going to fold! The Zealots call it End Times.. and expect the Rapture to be their life boat. My take? Our souls will be set free, from these very uncivilized human bodies... but I don't think it's going to be pretty.

 

I didn't realize I agreed that much. I guess having the nuance to acknowledge valid points instead of shouting into the void of disagreement is so outdated. But hey, if you’re into pointless contrarianism I have the entire rest of the internet for you! I didn’t realize debates were about flexing your ego rather than engaging your brain. Better? Just being a stinker. Got your message! Will reply.

 

I've heard it said that for anyone to get a point across, a bit of humor, or even controversy goes a long way. And from my POV.. you must know the Christians would be lighting the timbers under my feet, and the atheists and agnostics, simply laughing, or rolling their eyes. Just too bad when all of them realize the time for action has long since passed. I did a short stint at Argonne Nat Labs, and on my time off, I'd talk to the scientists and engineers. When they asked my interests, I said Alternate Energy.. and they start piling on a STACK of research books and reports. OK, this is not normal, so I asked. They said ol Ronnie had CANCELLED all of the super cool projects and funding. They had some amazing stuff.. all shot down! Various wind, solar, geo-thermal storage of ice, (gas transfer, with no moving parts)... but all came to a screeching halt. Could have been common knowledge to every kindergarten debate, for the last 4 decades otherwise!

And yes, I have seen nothing BUT pointless contrarianism. Deport all of the criminals, oh, but pardon all of those who wish to overthrow the government, and elect THAT one!