Arizona Shooting

How sad :{ I hate hearing about stuff like this. Please pray for the victims, mainly Gabby Giffords, and the families of Judge John Roll and that poor 9 year old girl.

 

Ya, tragic indeed.

 

Yes, very sad.

 

Yeah, a real shame when innocent people get killed and injured physically and psychologically just because some nut-job has psychiatric "issues".

 

Seems like a bit of 'selective outrage' as I have heard it described elsewhere. Hmm, how can I be non HBT here... Let's just say some politicians seem to be 'fair game' to the media and some groups, while other politicians are held to higher standards. There was also a Republican judge killed. The really sad part is the little girl that got killed. She was born on 9/11/2001 (assuming Yahoo News has the date right.)

I can't comprehend why someone would kill people they don't even know...

 

Sigh.

I think the President showed some real good leadership in his remarks Saturday.

 

I don't agree. This article appears to be reporting on "opponents" blaming Palin. There's a disclaimer immediately under the headline stating there is no known connection.It is the media's job to report these things. If it was the writer of the article suggesting the connection, that would be different.
Crosshairs are crosshairs. We all know what they sybolize...in this case it's that politics is a battle. Both sides think that way. It's the same in every country.
Personally, I'm far more concerned about "nutjobs" watching shows like "Criminal Minds" or "CSI Whatever" for picking up ideas on how to get attention.

 

"The nose of a mob is its imagination. By this, at any time, it can be quietly led."

~Edgar Allan Poe

Laura reminded me of that quote. It's become rather disconcerting the effect mass media has on the thought processes of people these days. Sometimes I wonder how many "free thinkers" are really left out there, with the 24/7 barrage of "news", and the spin that goes with it.

Even more frightening are the effects "Modern Capitalism" has had on our society. Disparity at an all time high in "Modern History", commodities being speculated through the roof, with little, or no change in supply or demand, and last but not least, the "American Dream" of home ownership being placed on the equivalent of a Vegas craps table, with Wall St. bellowing "PLACE YOUR BETS!!". These conditions, among other things, has led to many people viewing themselves as "failures". When they feel they have nothing left to lose, and need to lash out for being "harmed" by society, these are the kind of things that happen. Throw in some "mental issues" to go with all of that, and it's a time bomb ticking away, until someone finds someone to "blame".

To see the signs of this man's mental imbalance, and his world wide web rantings slip between the cracks, is simply stunning. From what I understand, there were so many warning signs, that were just not put together so as to prevent this tragedy. But, then again, how do you police thought? Hindsight being 20/20 is one thing, and the "Right to Bear Arms", is a topic which I would call "Hot Button" for sure. We already had a long way to go, and the results of the last decade, has probably knocked us backward more than twenty years as far as "societal development" goes.

The most shameful act for anyone to commit through all of this, is to use it for personal gain. And, YES, that even means RATINGS...

 

"We should bear in mind that, in general, it is the object of our newspapers rather to create a sensation - to make a point - than to further the cause of truth."

~Edgar Allan Poe

 

There is truth, or non truth. The 'cause of truth' is subjective.

Poe is one of my favorite authors. I always thought it would have been awesome if Twain and Poe co-authored a murder mystery. :-D

 

A terrible tragedy . . . my thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families. I cannot imagine the level of grief.

I find it utterly disgusting that some politicians are trying to use this senseless crime, commited by an obvious madman, for political gain . . . some didn't even wait for the victims to be removed. Disgraceful.

True that about the media. I guess they accidently overlooked the fact the democratic national committee used the same imagery in 2004 - a map with crosshairs on certain states; or the fact defeated Arizona democrat congressman Harry Mitchell ran a campaign ad featuring JD Hayworth in the crosshairs of a rifle; oh, and I guess they missed the political TV ad by democrat WV Sen. Joe Manchin where he actually used a real high-powered rifle to shoot a copy of the health care bill. Dear God - had that been Palin there would be calls to have her imprisoned. Ridiculous.
Media bias? Blatant hypocrisy? You bet.

Fact is, Palin's map nor Mitchell's ad had NOTHING to do with this horrible, horrible crime. It was committed by an insane person, plain and simple. To try and make some political gain out of it is despicable.

 

Correction - that should read "same type" of imagery. The map in question actually had bullseye targets . . . I looked at it again - I thought there were crosshairs on it also, but I was mistaken. I apologise for the error.

 

"We have a unique vantage point here aboard the International Space Station," he said. "As I look out the window, I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately, it is not."

"These days, we are constantly reminded of the unspeakable acts of violence and damage we can inflict upon one another, not just with our actions, but also with our irresponsible words," he said. "We're better than this. We must do better."

~ Scott Kelly, brother-in-law of Gabrielle Giffords
International Space Station Commander

:clap

 

Well, you've just opened it up I'm afraid, and as a life member of the NRA, former US Marine, and an American citizen, I can tell you that taking away guns is not the answer to solving things like this.

The problem here is that this was an isolated incident. Because we have the media, they sensationalize it more now than ever before. Because for every one, very few of these types of incidents where innocent life is lost at the hands of a gunman, I can post story after story where firearms, owned by responsible, law abiding citizens not only protected property, but saved lives as well.

 

Is that to both of us?

 

I would say "To whom it may concern".

Nothing personal intended.

However, I will not speak for Laura, just offering my feelings on the situation.

 

Just making sure is all.

 

That is deplorable. I am sorry, a little girl loses her life, but because she is a different religion there is a problem. It was a sad event that occurred, but apparently asking everyone to come together to mourn for the losses is just too much for some people.

 

This might close down the thread, and I apologize for it and accept punishment, but the WBC are not a church to God at all, but a synagogue to satan himself.

 

People such as Jared Lee Loughner do not belong in jail or in prison,
they belong in treatment.

If you know someone who you suspect may have a significant physiological illness, you
might suggest that he/she see a doctor. You may help that person find an appropriate
physician, perhaps a specialist, and you may even help with transportation to receive
that care if needed.

But for most of us, what is the typical response to someone we suspect has a problematic
or serious mental illness? Is it helpful and compassionate or fearful and avoidant.

It is dreadful and disheartening that old bias and the stigma of poor character associated
with All mental illness still persists. The human mind is large and complex, and it defines
who we are as individuals. The human brain is the master organ - not the heart, or the liver,
or the lungs, etc. So why should any illness or even the slightest disorder at our core
be regarded with such tenacious ignorance and disdain? Perhaps the fear comes from the
knowledge or belief that people with "a loose screw" can be dangerous or violent. That is
generally not the case.

In the case of Jared Loughner, it had been evident for several years that he had some
significant mental and/or emotional issues. A person with that degree of disturbance
needs appropriate ongoing and consistent professional care. However, based on what I have
read, he had No psychological therapy at all during those years. Even though many people
recognized that he was dealing with considerable psychological troubles, no proper help
was suggested Or Offered!

This article
describes what was known and recognized about Jared Loughner's behavior and attitudes in the years
prior to the shooting.

As regards Sarah Palin's "bullseye" map and the suggestion that it may have prompted his
fatal shooting, I think that is unlikely and somewhat simplistic thinking. IMO, it would
take considerably more than one such image to compel someone to take such action.
I agree that presenting that map was in bad taste and provocative. It's just another example
of Sarah Palin's character. Persoanlly, I think she is a fool and it is appalling that so
many people have latched on to her and support her with such zeal.

Loughner's dislike of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords precedes the presentattion of Palin's map.
This article tells that part of the story:
Exclusive: Loughner Friend Explains Alleged Gunman's Grudge Against Giffords

 

There's like 200 Tusconians ready to block those folks from the family's view by raising bedsheet angel wings'. :cool

Something else I noticed in the shooter's ramblings was that he sounded just like the far right 'hate radio'. Anyways, I hope the 'Angels' get the job done.

 

But Augie, he was a left winger.

As far as Phelps goes, that is just one sick bunch of people. I think the group that blocks them off is the Patriot Guard.

 

Fred Phelps should stay home and stop trying to be such a media whore.

No place is his HATE ever needed, and I say we can revoke his "rights to free speech" fast and furious.

 

Actually BOOM, while I have 0 respect for him and his ilk, legally, we cannot restrict his 1A rights. I did hear that someone is trying to introduce a bill preventing protests at funerals. I don't have the details of it, but it sounds like a good idea to me. 1A rights are fine, but the way phelps is expressing his is just wrong, in my opinion.

 

This guy was all over the place. He wasn't right wing or left wing, he was just plain crazy.

 

Crazy for sure.

 

Well, I'll agree with you that he's just plain nuts man!

 

Right on. I'd hoped we had heard the last of this "church" . . . but at least the residents aren't standing for it. These people are pretty much doing what some politicians are - trying to use this horrible event for their own gain. They haven't been in the news of late.

As an aside - I wonder why we don't hear (at least) the same level of condemnation from the mainstream media about the Westboro nut's actual hate activity that we do about so called "hate speech"? Oh - that pesky hypocrisy again.

:confused Don't see that at all, augie. Seems to me his ravings are all across the board. In point of fact been described by those who know him as a "leftist-marxist pot-head." I go back to my first post - I don't think it is logical to even try and ascribe a political bent to the guy as some seem to want to. He is insane . . . period. He is to blame for his actions, and no one else.

What is the far right "hate radio" program you have been listening too? I'd like to check it out and see if that moniker actually applies to it.

 

One tragedy that has been left out of the news through this entire circus: If you're mentally ill in Arizona, with a criminal record, having been kicked out of college and told not to come back unless you have a good psych evaluation in your pocket, it is both cheaper and easier to buy a powerful gun than to get the treatment you need.

Something is very wrong with that picture, and it's not the gun.

 

That's kind of what I was referring to in an earlier post

This clip from the Rachel Maddow Show plays properly in Firefox / Pale Moon 3.6.13 and Internet Explorer 8 and sometimes, if you're lucky, in Opera 11.

updated versions of Java and Adobe Flash are required.

Mental Health Care a National Issue

 

Very good point. I'm not sure of the extent of the suspect's criminal record - so far the most serious record I have seen referenced is a misdemeanor charge for possessing drug paraphernalia. It shows he paid his fine and completed a court-mandated program for drug offenders. There is some mention of motor vehicle fines, and a "local offense" which was non-criminal in nature. Nothing concerning any felonies so far. But this is not my main point about Mimsy's post.

We live in a free country, where a citizen cannot be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process. It is not that easy to get someone committed to a mental institution, nor should it be . . . case in point, in past history unscrupulous persons have taken advantage of being able to easily commit their wives (or others) to "get them out of the way" of an affair or control of their money or property. In Indiana, a person can be commited for "evaluation" to a mental facility if their family and a licensed MD signs off on it. This is a limited thing, and any extension is based on said evaluation.

There must be due process in place to strip someone of their freedom this way, especially if they have not actually committed a violent crime.

However . . .

I have served as a sworn police officer for a total of eight years, at various times over three decades. At one time I was squad leader for 12 other officers. So, I am not trying to second guess the officers that had contact with the suspect that did not result in an arrest. What would you have me, as a cop, do? Shoot the guy because people are "creeped out" by him? I understand how limited an officers actions are in such situations (and these limitations are not really a product of "right wing" legislation . . . but I digress). In point of fact there probably does not exist any venue to log, or otherwise put on record such non-criminal contact that would appear when doing a standard criminal background check. So . . .

How about a push for such a data base? What if the officers called to the college had such a data-base to link their reports to? A law enforcement agency anywhere in the US could run a criminal background check and find a caveat that there has been multiple law enforcement contacts, dealing with signed citizen fears about Mr. Doe possibly being violent. They could then deny the gun permit or purchase of a firearm until they could contact the authority that entered the information for further review. With the current national system such a data base would not be hard to set up. I know this. The legality of it is another matter.

What do you think the ACLU, those bastions of liberal values, would think of that? :-D Nah - let’s limit free speech instead to that which we think is proper . . .

@mjnc - interesting link. It seems to me Maddow wants to link the entire health care bill with the single question of mental health care issues contained in it . . . i.e. any opinion against the bill is against mental health care changes also. This is a specious argument. I don't think this issue should become a discussion about the merits, or lack thereof, of the health care bill or parts of it any more then it should be about gun control.

I just wish what comfort can be had for the victims of this mindless crime and their loved ones.

 

Not many people would disagree that there is a huge disparity between physical health care, (which is often lacking in itself), and psychiatric health care. But there also lies another huge ethical and legal problem of if someone wants to be treated they will usually be offered at least some form of assistance.
But with psychiatric illness, especially that involving extreme antisocial behaviour, as is usually the case when criminal atrocities are committed, how do you assist and treat someone who does not want/refuses to be treated? Sure, you can get a compulsory Psychiatric Order served and the person has no choice. But by what means can they be issued. Sure, the usual criteria are that the said person is considered to be a significant risk to themselves and/or others, but how can we force treatment and care on someone that just might be considered a "potential risk"?
The other side of the issue is that if authorities or reports by members of the public are sufficient to have the persons considered a risk and are compulsory incarcerated and treated, then it becomes open to all sorts of abuse in itself.
We can all say with 20/20 hindsight that various criminals with psychiatric health issues should have been treated earlier and maybe the whole atrocity avoided, but how does one enforce that pro-actively.
Bottom line is, I guess, that the whole issue of mental health problems tends to invoke a stigma of public shunning and basically avoiding contact with people requiring help, but then again, who can blame people for not wanting contact with someone aggressive or just plain weird.
And yes, I was a Psychiatric Nurse at one stage, so I have seen the 'other side’ of the fence.

 

An amazing almost miracle that leans towards the positive side is that Gabrielle Gifford actually survived being shot in the head,the bullet actually passed totally through the left side of the brain and exited the back of her skull.

The left side of the brain is responsible of language,logic and analytical thinking.



She's responded to spoken commands which means she can process information and make decisions and also has control of her extremities which is a good sign.

Maybe the only positive thing about this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12148446

 

Exactly, sir.

There is no easy solution . . . if there is a solution at all.

 

True that, Rikky.

 

No, absolutely not. There are MANY new and beneficial provisions in the bill and
she was merely drawing attention to One because it is in some way related to
this incident and this man's condition. Most people have little or no knowledge
of the benefits provided by this bill. Much of the public perception of this legislation is based on
extremely negative and superficial comments that have been delivered vehemently and repeatedly.

It is exactly this type of reporting that is intended to educate and inform the public
about some of the real and tangible beneficial aspects of this legislation.

The tone of some of the remarks about the mentally ill seems to be regarding them
as criminals that need to be apprehended and "held" or forced to receive treatment.
They are seen as dangerous only After what usually is an extended period of impairment
without adequate treatment that, in these cases, ultimately results in some violent behavior.
It's as though they are seen as non-human predators that have wandered into the community
and need to be extracted, like a wild bear or an alligator.

The point I'm trying to make is that we need new ways of providing such people
with treatment options in a non-threatening manner and approaching them in such a way
as to instill a feeling of trust that they will not be treated harshly or unfairly.

It has to be known that this is Readily Available to them And that they have unrestricted access
to proper and compassionate care Early in the course of their troubles.

That was the point of Rachel's discussion related to Some of the new provisions resulting from the health care legislation.

 

I fully agree we need new ways of providing such people with treatment options. Yet - such things do not have to be part of the current legitimately contested health care bill. It is a seperate matter from the whole . . . to be against large parts of the current health care bill is not hate speech, by any measure. So many out there are trying to say it is, and is somehow partially responsible for the shootings. Ridiculous.

 

Criminal records are supposed to be public record anyway in most states, aren't they? What you're describing would be nothing more than to rearrange existing information into something that is easier to manage and review. Information efficiency, plain and simple.

As for the rest of my post, others in this thread have already touched on that. Being mentally ill carries a stigma with it in our society, and institutions and treatment centers far too often are more focused on keeping their patients out of the way than on actually helping them and providing good treatment options.

In this particular case, whatever contact the man has had with the police in the past is almost a non-issue when compared to the fact that apparently there was not a single individual in his life that he had was close enough with that they saw what was happening, and then cared enough to force him to get help.