BSOD with new RAM

I'm running a previously-stable xp64 install with an nVidia 9500 GT video card. I just upgraded from my 2 x 1GB DDR RAM to 2 x 2GB DDR RAM from Kingston, and I almost immediately started having video artifacts, application crashes, and sometimes BSOD crashes, especially when running intensive 3D apps (e.g. games).

The memory seemed like the most likely culprit, so I ran a memory test application (whatever comes an an Ubuntu CD) on each stick in isolation for 7+ hours. Zero errors reported.

The most common BSOD error code I get is "page_fault_in_nonpaged_area", pointing to nv4_disp.dll. I updated my video drivers to the latest version -- this didn't help. I've also moved my pagefile to a secondary hard drive in a dedicated partition at the beginning of the drive to improve performance (and to clear out any pagefile corruption) -- this doesn't seem to have made any difference either.

This still sounds to me like it must be the RAM, given the timing of these problems and the pattern of the failures. Is it possible that my memory test wasn't sufficient? Should I try another memory tester, like memtest86? Could it be some kind of RAM timing issue in the BIOS, and if so, how do I figure out what to do about that?

Thanks in advance to anyone who has advice.

 

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Greetings, picador...

Couple of quickies, just to get them out of the way:

1. Does your mobo support 4gb? (I'm assuming it does, since you're able to run for 7+ hours, but a visit to your mobo's spec page might be in order)...

...and...

2. Did you reinstall the old RAM to see if the problem resolved? Wouldn't hurt, for troubleshooting purposes...

As far as CAS, timings, etc., I'd imagine Kingston should supply those: http://www.valueram.com/ ...

...

 

The mobo is an ASUS M2N4 SLI. The manual says it supports up to 8GB, and I've installed the RAM in the slots the way they recommend. My OS detects all 4GB of RAM just fine.

I've also tried reseating the RAM a few times, clearing the pagefile, etc.

Good idea. If the problem is still there, is it possible that this is a pagefile issue? I suppose it could be the video card, but the coincidence of a new video card problem when I bought new RAM would be very weird... right?

I'll check that out. I assume these can be set from the BIOS and/or the nVidia control panel (which seems to be able to tweak mobo memory settings)?

Thanks for the advice... although I'm still not hopeful. I suppose I should reinstall the old RAM, see if the problems recurs, and if not return the new RAM as faulty. My concern is that the new RAM isn't faulty, but that somehow it's creating the problems nonetheless -- that something about the RAM settings, or the amount of memory, is the root cause, and that getting new sticks won't help.

 

nv4_disp.dll points to video card and/or drivers, try uninstalling the video card from within device manager, remove the drivers reffering to this post:
http://forums.majorgeeks.com/showthread.php?t=19587
Reboot, and re-install card&drivers

nv4_disp.dll is a module associated with NVIDIA Compatible Windows 2000 Display driver, Version 66.93 from NVIDIA Corporation.\r
source:http://www.processlibrary.com/directory/files/nv4_disp/

 

You can run memtest86+ to check for bad ram. It can help point out issues and will tell you if your ram is bad.

 

Thanks. I know that nv4_disp.dll is a video card driver file, but my concern is that the error doesn't actually originate there -- as I said, the problems started as soon as I upgraded my RAM.

I'll try a driver uninstall and clean reinstall, though. Thanks for the link to the cleanup tools.

Yeah, I'm going to try this one out, although I'm confused about why my earlier memory test wouldn't have picked up any RAM errors.

 

Hmm. Checkin up on the memory tester I used earlier, it turns out it is memtest86+. I ran that for 7 hours on each DIMM stick separately, which translated to something like 11 full passes of the tester. Like I said, zero errors reported.

This is why I'm confused. Surely bad RAM would return at least one error after that kind of extensive testing, right?

 

One quick thought. With 4GB of ram, you may have to relocate the hardware DEVICE mappings above the 4GB limit. Your BIOS is new enough that there should be a menu selection you can make. There is a Hardware re-mapping (your MOBO) and a software re-mapping (available with XP and above), but you must first select this in your BIOS menu.

 

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That really nags at me - that, and the fact that you were talking about artifacts...maybe somehow the new memory changed clock rates, somehow? It's been my experience that artifacts are usually tied to video clock frequencies being overdriven...I'd really like to see the timing charts for this new RAM...

Just grabbin' at straws...

(Good shot, prometheos - very much worth a look!)

...

 

After more googling, I'm beginning to think that this may be a problem with nTune, the nVidia utility that runs in the background. I used it to "tune" my system for maximum performance a while back, and I think it set the memory clock speed slightly above 800MHz. It may also have tweaked one or more of the memory timing settings.

The specification for this Kingston RAM states 800MHz clock speed, 5-5-5-15 timing. I'll make sure I haven't deviated from that next time I'm in front of my machine.

I think I'll also uninstall nTune -- I don't hear very good things about it, especially on xp 64.

 

Make sure you have the most current mobo bio's firmware installed. Compatibility issues could arise if you don't have this. $.02

 

Like da.bell said flashing your bios may help solve the issues however take bios updates very carefully as you can render your board useless if it fails to update or something goes wrong.

 

Firstly use CPU-Z 1.52.2 and the manufacturers specs and "manually" set the timings within your BIOS.

Secondly, manually set the vDIMM also attained from cpu-z or manufacturers specs.

Most importantly you may need to assess your your FSBRAM ratio. This can and will cause conflict if not well balanced. You have not mentioned "arguably" the most crucial aspect, what is your CPU running at (FSB xxxMHz x Mulitipier) and then comparing this against what your RAM is running at. Bad ratios do and will cause BSOD. CPU-z is your friend and it seems your suffering poor sync at the moment.

 

Drivers have a certain memory address allocated to them when they are installed. When you change the amount of memory the allocation scheme for all drivers has to be adjusted to the new amount, which is done automatically by operating system. Sometimes, they just don't get it right, especially not when jumping from a small amount of RAM to a considerably larger, e.g. when doubling the amount.

Reinstalling the driver that's causing problems forces a complete rebuild of the allocation table, and usually solves the problem.

It happens in XP laptops all the time.

 

Okay, cool. After wiping and installign fresh video drivers, I validated using CPU-Z and got this:

http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=765005

It looks like my memory is set to 5-5-5-18 instead of 5-5-5-15 as specified by the manufacturer -- I assume I can change this in the BIOS.

As for the FSBRAM ratio, I really don't know how the best way is to set this stuff manually... I'll try to google around for some instructions.

 

5-5-5-18 is actually more forgiving than 5-5-5-15... lower numbers are more likely to cause BSoD than higher ones are.

Look in your BIOS for the CPU multiplier and the FSBRAM ratio... if you can't find it, consult the manual. ASUS prints everything in their manuals... it's like reading a small phone book sometimes.

 

Ugh. I updated my memory timing in the BIOS, with the following result:

http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=765042

Everything looked good. I fired up Oblivion and gave it a whirl. Less than 5 minutes in, BSOD: nv_disp.dll, page_fault_in_nonpaged_area (the same error as before).

The video drivers were completely uninstalled (using NFR) and all nVidia software was gone before I rebooted and installed the latest drivers.

My memory settings are according to the manufacturer spec. My memory, FSB, and CPU timings look like they line up properly: FSB = 201, CPU = 2412.4, for a 12x ratio. RAM speed is 402.1 (meaning DDR2 804.2, right?)

I guess I'll try stepping everything down to 2400/400/200 and see if it improves.

 

What should I set the ratio to?

 

Um... I'm actually not entirely sure here... I'm an Intel girl, I don't know AMD stuff.

Though if you tell me your CPU and what the ratio is set for now, I can probably make an educated guess.

EDIT:
Never mind, I just saw the link in your post. Try 5:4.

 

If the FSB speed is 200MHz, wouldn't that give me a DRAM speed of 160?

 

It would, but according to CPU-Z, your rated FSB is ~1000 so 5:4 sets the RAM to 800.

 

Sorry, I must seem very dense, but:

- my motherboard actually doesn't have an FSB per se according to the manual; instead, it uses a system clock of 200-400MHz (default 200) and an HT multiplier to set the effective FSB speed.
- right now, it seems to be set to 200MHZ with 5x HT, for a total of 1000MHz
- my memory is set to 800MHz DDR2 (manual setting)

Is there anything else that needs to be done to achieve a 5:4 FSBRAM ratio?

 

No, you're not dense. As far as I can tell you're doing things right, you're just for some reason not getting the results you should.

You may want to consider posting about your issue in the Over-Clocking forum here. The people there are a lot more knowledgeable about AMD motherboards than I am, and should be able to help you out with any fine-tuning you need.

I'd love to keep helping you, but I know my limits. I also very well know the consequences of not realizing these limits. The way I see it, it's one thing if I toast my own stuff, but if I give you advice that results in you toasting your things, I'd feel like crap.

 

Sometimes it can be hard getting systems to play with 4GB and greater of RAM.

Okay I would suggest leave the FSBRAM at a 1:1 ratio which you seem to have for the best stability potential. You can verify this on the Memory tab of CPU-z, on the SPD tab your will get the timings and vDIMM (voltages) note those down.

I got your manual from:
http://usa.asus.com/Product.aspx?P_ID=Tiqsh7TlDIG7JbO3#

Page 2-10 says to put the pairs in "either" the 2 yellow slots "or" the 2 Black slots. You may have to try swapping to different slots.

Page 4-21 is the BIOS pages of interest:
Overclock Profile [Standard] (until you are getting system stability).
PCI Express Clock [100MHz] (you never want to overclock Video Cards here as it affects all PCI devices).
DDR2 Voltage [set to manufacturers specs r what was noted in CPU-z] (this may have to be increased slightly to get the RAM to work but be very careful as it will cause the RAM heat to increase, would consider a +0.05 at the very most).
CPU Multiplier [Auto] till stability is reached
CPU Voltage [Auto]
PCI Clock Synchronisation Mode [33.33MHz] change to this as you do not want to ever try and overclock or leave on auto.

On page 4-23 leave the Memory Clock Frequency to auto and hopefully this will maintain a 1:1 ratio, only set the 4 primary timings (leave all sub-timings), sometimes loosening the timings will give better stability so you could try 5-5-5-18 or even 6-6-6-18 until your are getting stability.

If this doesn't work you may have to go into BIOS and Set Safe Running options and allow it to auto everything.

 

The more I think about the more I realise you probably have a FSBRAM ratio of 1:2 which should be fine, your RAM is running at 400MHz x DDR2 making it 800MHz and your FSB is running at 200MHz which is what you stated earlier.

My FSBRAM ratio is also at 1:2 with 333MHz FSB and 666MHz RAM, my stock spec for the RAM is 1333MHz (DDR3).

I couldn't see it in your BIOS but another consideration is the MCH may need a "little" tweak to get the RAM to run, i.e. vMCH +0.01 (from stock), if you have that option in your BIOS. If you do change any voltages make them the smallest possible increases, only change your vDIMM and vMCH for now and watch your temps.

 

Yes, I believe that's correct.

I'm pretty sure there is a set of voltage adjutments I can make in the BIOS. The Kingston RAM spec says I can use 1.80v or 1.85v for these sticks; I'll try the adjustment you suggest, although I can't help but feel like I'm flying blind here. Perhaps I need to read up on what these voltage corrections are actually supposed to accomplish.

I left the two sticks in, running memtest86+ all day at 5-5-7-15 (for some reason memstest86 wouldn't let me adjust that third timing parameter). I noticed that it's running at 200MHz (400 MHz DDR) rather than 400 MHz (800 DDR), and I couldn't figure out a way to change that within memtest86. Could that explain why it's not throwing any errors? Since it's running at hald speed? And is there any way to have memtest run at the actual RAM speed I have set in my BIOS?

 

Well some increase there vDIMM so they can overclock there RAM or get it to run more stably but whenever you increase voltages there are always increases in heat and they need to be monitored.

 

As a tech, I've seen many ram problems and 90+% of the time it's related to either Kingston or Spectec ram. Both are bad news, as is well knows in the PC Service industry.

Sure, some of it actually works, but then some doesn't and there-in lies the problem.

I buy all my replacement ram from www.crucial.com which uses "Micron" ram, the top of the line ram manufacturer.
I've NEVER had a problem with ram from Crucial.

Just some friendly advise,

The Shadow

 

Have to agree with this point and many manufacturers are using the "Micron" wafers on their RAM modules to sell resell to the public.

 

Two things:

1. My Kingston HyperX have been rock solid for nearly 5 years now. Absolutely no complaints there. If you buy Kingston ValueRAM though, you get what you pay for. Budget components. uke

Spend the money to buy quality parts. The joy of a good bargain dies away long before the pain of buying low quality product does.

2. There's a handful of major companies making all the parts for all the RAM companies out there. They are Micron Technology, Elpida, Infineon, Samsung, and Nanya, if I remember right. (If not, don't be too hard on me... it's been a long day and I'm doing this from memory.) Those five, and any other I have forgotten, provide the parts for all the memory brands out there. Some brands relabel pre-assembled parts, some assemble them themselves, but Crucial is the only one that's actually a branch of one of the manufacturers (Micron). For reasons you should be able to figure out on your own, Crucial makes a big deal of that in their sales pitches. :tas

 

Well said.

But it important to note that Micron do make the major components all the way upto the final product and offer many "value products" nowadays which compete with the majority of budget kits. The used to also be renown for making "bleeding edge" RAM under the name of Crucial Ballistix, which was one of the world leaders for it's time. Sadly somewhere along the way a new CEO came along and changed the "product dynamics" allowing an average end product to enter the market place (about mid 2007) which disappointed the extreme end users due to failing products that would not OC and compete with other competitors and their name became "tarnished".

Some of their budget lines in comparison to others:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...eals&SubCategory=147&StoreType=2&N=2010170147

You may pay a little more but I would have greater confidence in their products and you can buy direct from them often saving a bit more.

 

Since I don't OC my RAM I can't comment on the Ballistix... my desktop performance RAM is Kingston HyperX in the DDR board and Corsair XMS in the DDR2 system since they were the best deals I could find on Newegg at the time, and I know that the HyperX and XMS both are solid products with life-time warranty.

My two laptops both have Crucial RAM though, and I have no complaints with that at all. I never think about them at all, which means they're probably working the way they should

 

Here I am again, late to the party.

Ballistix RAM is worth every penny.

I'd put the old RAM back, return the Kingston RAM, and keep my eye on Crucial until I caught one of their sales to pick up a 2 x 2GB kit for around sixty bucks.

Either that, or some RAM from Patriot. Just my opinion though.

Right now, you're looking at about ninety bucks at Crucial for DDR2 PC-6400.

According to the mobo specs, you can use 800 MHz PC-6400.

 

Well you don't have to OC the RAM but the main reason it was "king of the hill" late 2006 to early 2007 was because it was almost bullet proof (incredibly reliable) and could handle almost anything enthusiasts would throw at it. I bought a pair for $450USD at that time because I wanted the best, it was rock solid and still is. Sadly I bought a pair of the later kit and not so solid, at least it was only $80USD at that time.

 

So I take it the first one is the one in your signature?

Wait, Crucial does video cards? :confused

 

Well they used to and it was a beast for it's day and still runs rock solid in the missus PC. Yes it is PC1 but my latest build is significantly different:

Q6600, GA-EP45T Extreme, G-Skill DDR3 1333MHz, ATI 4850 etc etc, tried to update my sig to reflect this but it wanted me to dump a lot of what I have (a lot less limit for some reason?!?).


It was a pain trying to get the 2 kits to play well together and I had to do all the manual settings in BIOS to get all 4x1GB to run and then play with "memset" (only for very experienced users) to tweak the sub timings as both kits came with different SPD's.

 

*winces* And that is why I never mix brands in a system....

 

These were both Crucial PC2-6400 2x1Gb kits (therefore 2 x (2x1Gb kits)) and I think even the products codes on the site were the same. For all apparent indications they should have played well but when they arrived the looked different (1 kit was Double Sided (wafers) the other Single Sided) and the damn SPD's were different. I got the new product line with the old and it took a bit of mucking around to get them to run.

 

Because they were 8 chips, versus 16 chips, they will not readily play well together.

With Crucial, that explains the different SPD.

How do you like crucial's new 24GB kit (3 x 8GB) for only $2699.99?

 

Double-sided and single-sided I understand. The manufacturing industry is moving towards higher component density for a bunch of reasons, so to have less ICs on newer modules makes perfect sense to me. But different SPD??? :confused Did the new ones have EPP and the old ones not?

 

Will have to have a look.

Mimsy not sure about the EPP but the available profiles (via CPU-z) on the later series were a lot more complex, but these were the kits that frustrated the high end market who do push the kits to their limits and imho are the real end-product QA testers. If their happy the product will run 24/7 with minimum "potential" issues at stock settings.

 

That's EPP... It's basically over-clocking for dummies. OC "default" settings are programmed into the SPD, so with a motherboard set for it you can just pick profile "OC 15" and presto, your RAM is OCed 15% without you having to change more than ones setting.

Intel calls it XMP, nVidia calls it SLI Certified and ATI calls it cross-fire, but the principle is all the same. OC templates are programmed into the SPD of the modules, and in a motherboard that supports them you just pick a profile, and don't have to worry about voltages and decent timings, because they'll all be set automatically.

And anyone who needs a low-profile 3-piece kit of Registered ECC PC3-8500 dual-ranked 8GB modules has a corporate budget office that has already approved of the expense, since the production server needs to be upgraded and back up and running as soon as possible. (Sorry, couldn't resist looking it up. )

 

Sorry picador we went a bit off-track.

Here is another excellent RAM testing app I use and prefer nowadays as it is done within the OS:

MemTest 4.0

I haven't used this latest version but the older version used to only test ~800Mb at a time so you had to run several instances of it at a time to "capture" all of your RAM.