How To Bake A Motherboard

So I built my first pc back in 2005/6 with an old motherboard I took out of a pc I bought at my girlfriends old job. Was the first build of my life... I learned a lot then. It actually lead me to become a member here. I didn't even know how to open a computer case then. Now I can build computers from nothing.

Of course years have passed and I bought another tower, as well as a laptop. But my good ole first build still kept going strong all of these years. Until a couple of years ago when I noticed freezes, reboots, beeping. Dismantling/reassembly of all components would usually fix the problem. It was something that would happen once or twice a year. Last I remember it happening was in 2011. I bread boarded the motherboard then (for the first time) and it worked fine. So I reassembled it and used it since 2011 without a problem.

Ya, the damn motherboard is old it was my first build for Pete's sake. All of the other components were fairly new and purchased as the years went by though. Last I put in a new Antec Earthwatts psu in 2010 I think. Anyways to make a long story short I've used it sporadically during the past year or two. It's useful for some things, good for storage, has a lot of my favorite old programs.

But recently again after almost two years without a glitch it rebooted and beeped. The beeps don't matter I know it's not any of the components. It's the motherboard. I also noticed the last few times I've used it in the last two months the USB speed is crazy slow when attaching an external (autoplay takes like 10 mins vs the old 30 sec launch). And the normal use of any hard drives is slower too by a bit (not much). Last shutdown I tried took 20 mins vs the normal 60 seconds (I actually had to force power shut off).

It's the motherboard.

I want to keep this computer in working state. This was my first ever build. As I mentioned last I took it apart I bread boarded the thing and it cured the reboot issues/freezes/beeping. I believe something's shorting on it.

It's the motherboard!

I want to bake this thing, I heard baking a board can fix a load of problems. I can't find this board anymore (HP VECTRA VL400 made in 2001 - ya, ya save the back lash it's old I know). But there's not bulging/leaky capacitors that I see. It must have a dry/cold solder joint somewhere. I want to bake this thing but have never done anything like it.

I don't mind trying to replace all of the capacitors myself, but I need help finding adequate replacements. I know it's probably not that, it's more then likely a short/cold solder point getting worse. Especially since I don't use the machine often anymore. But it's got serious sentimental value. The damn things in a clear case, it's got all these spruced up parts (it does not look like a VCR or old tower lol). Actually I can't see how it would short being that it's in an all clear acrylic case, not a metal/aluminum tower.

Anyone know how to bake a motherboard? I want to save this thing. I have soldering skills, I can do something if given instructions. I want my unborn child to see what I built in still working condition someday. Ya he/she will probably laugh at the good old Windows XP. But I'll remember the nights of learning, tinkering, and having so much fun entering the tech world.

It's the motherboard!!!! Help me save this thing please...


Many thanks



Ps.
Hell I'll even pay to ship it to anyone with skills enough to adequately test, and repair every fault on it. I'd pay for new capacitors, soldering, reflow, whatever. This thing is priceless to me. Of course I won't just send it to anyone. You have to have some good reputation here.

 

Baking a board without knowing specifically why doesn't usually fix problems. It is a bit like buying a raffle ticket..... sometimes you win something but mostly you don't.

If there are no bulging tops on any electros and no obvious corrosion or dirt buildup on the pcb and you have reseated any ic chip that is mounted in an ic socket eg processor and BIOS chip and you have checked the supply rails on all ic chips with an accurate digital multimeter and then checked the ic chip number power requirement from its data sheet pinout to see if the power supply is up to spec around the motherboard. Then try sitting the motherboard on an antistatic non conductive foam pad or a dry piece of cardboard and plug everything in then power it up and when the fault is present flex the pcb slightly (not too much force) and see if you can clear the fault. This helps check if a via (see pic below) on the pcb has cracked inside the hole and become intermittent. This is a fairly common fault on multi layer pcbs that have had a long life of thermal cycling and if this is the case a replacement board is the answer but if it still draws a blank then start looking for dry solder joints with either a x10 magnifier or a jeweller's loupe or best is if you have access to a binocular microscope. To repair smd solder joints you will need a hot air tool with several different nozzles as these give much better results than a fine tipped temperature controlled soldering iron. There are plenty of tutorials on the internet on smd soldering and identifying dry joints so I will leave it up to you if you want to follow this up.

Of course your original question was how to bake a pcb and if you really want to give it a go then here is a link how to do it using a toaster oven, an accurate timer, a multimeter that reads temperature and a thermocouple to sense the temperature accurately inside the toaster oven. I used to design prototype multilayer pcbs and have used a similar method many times for soldering an entire smd pcb. Note some of the equipment the person in the link has at hand but remember he is loading and soldering the parts on an entire pcb whereas you are just going to reflow the solder Oh and before you start to bake the pcb make sure the board has been cleaned down thoroughly with isopropyl alcohol that is at least 95% pure although 99% pure evaporates faster with no residue and then make sure you remove any ic chips from their sockets

http://[URL=http://s968.photobucket.com/user/joffa666/media/vias_zps3ba0fe73.jpg.html][IMG]http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae163/joffa666/vias_zps3ba0fe73.jpg[/URL][/IMG]

Good luck and have fun learning about how the hardware in your pc works :cool

 

Great response as usual Joffa... A lot of good points were raised there. What I hate is the fact that I know a lot about computers now (building, software, etc). But I still don't have the skills to use a multimeter (nor do I have one - I never learned). So out of everything you said the most I know or can personally do is look at the board with a loupe/magnifying headset which I do have. Check for bulging capacitors (I see none already), bread board the motherboard on a piece of cardboard (99% sure it will work fine that way), and basically clean the darn thing. Everything else you mentioned I pretty much either don't have the skills/knowledge on how to do so, or have the tools.

Man I'd gladly pay someone to refurbish this thing for me. I'm a vintage electronics collector, and this right here is priceless to me. Possibly my most valuable electronic equipment that I own. This thing takes me back to when I first got with my wife... It's where it all started at... It's where I learned everything I know about computers today...

I hope I can repair this somehow, someway.

Wish you weren't down under, I'm in North America.

 

I have never cleaned the motherboard, other then dusting it off with a can of compressed air, and using contact cleaner for the ram/agp/pci ports over the years. I don't see any visible corrosion. Do you think I should take a stab at cleaning the entire motherboard with a q tip swab and some 90% isopropyl alcohol? & if I do is there anything I should "NOT" rub the alcohol on the motherboard surface, or chips? Because otherwise I will rub it everywhere. I dunno I'm just thinking maybe it's some small corrosion I have over looked. There are electronics in this world that have lasted through the ages. No way this motherboard can totally die, or go bad and not be fixed.

 

I'm sorry to say this but unfortunately I think you're flogging a dead horse. As joffa showed you, you're dealing with a multi-layer MB and there's no way to see if a connection is broken or corroded between the layers. Many of these MB's use surface mount capacitors and resisters that are robot machine soldered and very hard if not impossible to hand solder.

But it's your horse.

 

I hear you but wouldn't that be what reflow and motherboard baking is for?

 

Thanks superstar no trouble .... I may as well get as much use out of my uni knowledge by sharing what I have learnt with others :-D

I am in Australia so a bit far to offer you hands on service but you are welcome to pm me if you have any specific questions. Any general questions can be asked in the forum as other people might be interested in any replies and I'm not the only person here with electronic knowledge and I certainly don't have the answers to everything rolleyes and there are others here who are equally knowledgeable that may give a much better answer than me

Anyhooo if you are hunting for elusive dry joints here are some tips that may save you a lot of time.
Thermal cycling over many years puts a lot of strain on pcb tracks, vias and the component solder joints so when you start looking go to the places on the motherboard that get the hottest first as these have the most expansion and contraction over their lives. So the first obvious area is around the power supply caps and voltage regulators (maybe an ic chip or often discrete components with small inductors) then the processor chip then the Northbridge chip then the Southbridge chip then the RAM slots and if it has onboard graphics the GPU and any associated VRAM would be prime suspects then look at the BIOS area then the real time clock area (usually next to BIOS) and then any fan controllers and associated headers then the card slots.

Now a quick word about a methodical approach as one solder joint looks like another so what is the best approach to ensuring you check every joint and don't miss any. Everyone who regularly does this, usually has a system that works for them.
What I do :-
1. Go get some fine tipped Staedtler Lumocolor Permanent pens in black and red or the equivalent in Pentel just so long as it is a permanent marker that can be removed later with isopropyl alcohol.
2. Use the black to mark a square around areas of interest eg around the processor chip including any associated quartz clock chips and any caps plus any pull down resistors. Then mark a square around the Northbridge ic chip and then the Southbridge ic chip and so on until there are squares around all the places of most interest. When you draw the square be a quite generous when you include nearby components as a rule of thumb board designers put associated components close to the chip to which they are related as this minimises copper trace length reducing I²R losses and also reducing EMI (electro magnetic interference) problems.
3. Work out a code for when you check the joints and stick to it. Mine is I start at the ic chips and check in pin order starting at pin 1. If I find a joint that looks dull or looks discoloured or has a fine black line then I mark beside the joint with the red pen. Each joint that I check that seems OK I put a black dot. I used to use a green pen for the good joints but Staedtler changed something and the green became quite dark and could be confused with black so now I just use black for good and red for suspect.
4. After you check all the ic chips inside the box then move on to the resistors and caps marking in the same way until every thing is done inside the box.
5. After you have checked everything in the first box move on to the second box and repeat the process.
6. If you are finding a lot of bad or suspicious joints in one particular area it could be assumed the temperature profile for the soldering oven was incorrect for that part of the board during manufacture as this is a fairly common occurrence when production staff cut corners. They often forget to calibrate the temperature sensors inside the soldering oven several times every shift as the thermocouples have some drift. This mostly happens when workers are paid by the number of pcbs going down the line coz while they are calibrating the sensors, no parts go down the line meaning everybody gets paid less for someone doing the right thing. Some companies have a general thermal profile that they use for all boards going down the line and this may not be the ideal for some versions of pcb.
7. This is where the time saving comes in. If you find several bad joints in either the CPU, Northbridge or Southbridge squares then stop looking and resolder those joints and retest the board. In my experience about 80% of the time, the first two or three squares are the places that have all the problems. If this isn't the case then you have a bloody lot of joints to check by the time you check the rest of the squares
8. After you have resoldered any faulty joints and tested that the board works the last thing you need to do is clean off all the pen marks with isopropyl alcohol. Any joints that you resoldered should be sprayed with some flux remover (an old soft toothbrush helps here) and when clean if you want to go all the way then a quick spray with solder through clear pcb lacquer although I am usually slack and forget about the pcb lacquer unless it is going in a boat or is to be used in a salty or corrosive area.

If you want to read up on Northbridge and Southbridge chip functions then here and here are links

Hope this helps and saves you some time

Sorry it turned out a bit like War and Peace LOL I just started writing and because it was 31°C overnight, I stayed up all night because my big air conditioner crapped itself just before lunch yesterday in the 43°C heat rolleyes
Not looking forward to 40°C days for the rest of the week with no air as the tech can't come out until the middle of next week at best :cry
My office has two overclocked i7 workstations, an i7 laptop, a 40" HD screen, a 3kw online UPS, a 12 bay NAS server, a couple of 7 bay NAS servers, a HP ProCurve 24 port managed switch, a router, a cable modem, two printers and a scanner all of which runs 24/7 for my job plus my office gets all the sun from lunchtime until the sun goes down Yesterday I shut one workstation down and one NAS, the UPS was running all day because the power supply was under voltage and the temperature inside my office got to 52°C by late afternoon just because the air conditioner died at lunchtime :cry
I wish I could just shut the door and go to the beach for the day and forget about work .... the boss would really like that rolleyes

Jeez I think I need a bourbon and coke or three ... at least the ice will be cold :yum

 

I just private message'd you, thanks - very informative post!

 

I agree baking a motherboard is a bad idea. Decades ago, this practice, on rare occasions, would repair a cold-solder joint but today's solder is more refined and today's soldering techniques are much different and much improved.

The problem today is (as mentioned) multilayered boards and the components on the boards. In order to get a board hot enough to cause the solder to flow and repair any microfractures you risk destroying other joints, but also, you risk damaging heat sensitive components mounted on the board.

This board is nearly 9 years old. It had a good life. Let it die in peace.

 

Don't think I'll give up on it just yet, this is vintage hardware. Quite a few people post theirs up on YouTube in the past year or two. Guess I'm not the only one that likes this vintage model. So much computer history lies within the timeframe these were made. Anyways it's done similar stuff before in the past, and I still managed to get more and more years of use out of it. I'll have to start by dismantling the thing soon as I have time this week. It's not easy, the motherboards in a hefty custom acrylic see through case. Usually takes an hour just to take apart.

 

Don't really have anything to add to the tips offered here . . . but I do understand having a fondness for your first build.

I built my first computer in 2004 . . . I updated it over the years as much as I could, and it only stopped using it as my main computer in Aug 2012 when my kids bought me a new motherboard and components. But my old "supercomputer" is still kicking, and serves as my backup PC. Heck, I'm thinking about putting Windows 7 on it . . . it meets the requirements. At any rate I'll never get rid of it.

So good luck to you in your efforts. I respect the opinions of those who say you are flogging a dead horse, but I say flog that horse all you want. Never say die!

 

I recently cleaned out my basement storage areas of all sorts of "vintage" electronics I liked, so never threw away. This included several old (but still fully functional) motherboards, including the SuperMicro board I used in my first personal self-built system from back in the early 90s. But what good did it do to hang on to it all? None! It just cluttered up my basement.

Even if you can get that motherboard running, it used a really slow (by today's standards) 133MHz FSB (front side bus) so motherboard communications between the CPU, RAM and graphics will be slow. It does not support current CPUs so even if you have, or can find a used PIII CPU that is supported by that board, it will be slow with lackluster performance.

That motherboard only supports 512Mb of RAM. A modern OS will not run in such a small amount of RAM. You might be able to run some "lite" versions of Linux, but you still have very little RAM room to run any application with the OS.

It supports AGP 4x only for graphics. While AGP 8x cards can still be found, they will toggle down to 4x (Read: slow) speeds.

Of course, much depends on available drivers too - if available.

If you succeeded in overcoming all those obstacles and you got this system going, what could you use it for? NAS-type storage? Sure - if you have the patience to wait (and wait some more, and some more again) for the file transfers to complete.

The problem with virtually all "consumer electronics" is advances in technologies and the state-of-the-art always come before the last generation products die of old age.

How many of us have tossed perfectly good TVs for new, flatter, brighter, sharper, bigger TVs? How many of us have tossed perfectly good MP3 players, flash drives, small hard drives, power supplies computer monitors, etc.? VCRs for DVD players, then again for Blu-ray players? Cassette players for CD players? Cell phones for new cell phones?

My advice is to gather up all your old stuff and take it to a proper electronics recycling center. Many will pay you for your old junk. I got $80 - based on the weight of the boards, cards, drives, and cases.

The only bad part (for me) was getting rid of 6 old (but perfectly good) CRT monitors I had replaced with LCD widescreens. The recycling center wanted me to pay them $10 "hazardous waste" recovery fee per monitor - due to the amount of lead and mercury in CRT monitors that must not be dumped back into the environment in their "refined" states. So I ended up putting those monitors on the curb in front of my house with a "free" sign on them - they were gone in 15 minutes!

 

Regardless of whether it's a good idea I've fixed many a PS3 using a solder a reflow, the repeat failure rate is about 50% within the next year.

I have a repeated it on boards that have repeat failed but they always fail again within a year, my findings are similar to others.

I put the board on alu foil to prevent hot up currents melting the bottom, get the oven standard electric non fan assisted up to about 250C then put the board in.

Using an internal oven thermometer with an external readout fixed to the top center of the board or the coolest part, I then monitor the temperature of the board as it climbs up toward 250C. Now bang the side of the board while it's in the oven like tapping on the side of a cup with a teapoon to break the surface tension of a the solder to hopefully reseat the components.

You have to be 100% sure the board your baking doesn't have any components that will melt and you have no idea.:confused I know nothing on the PS3 melts because Google told me, you can easily end up with a melted plastic mess and I have.

I'd rather start replacing capacitors if you simply can't let it die.

 

It actually runs Windows XP SP3 mighty fast, and has been for years. I've got some classic video games on it that run on a Radeon 9550 AGP 4x card.
Titles like Max Payne 2, XII, Contract Jack, and more. A bunch of software works on it just fine. Mozilla is fast, and it was also used in an audio recording
facility for years. Countless great records were made using the very same machine. It has a 1.4GHz Tualatin processor using a FCPGA to FCPGA2 Socket
360 adapter (You won't find those adapters anymore - & if so they're like $100 now). If you check into the history this board and all Pentium 3's were meant
to go up to 1.0Ghz I believe. Intel was working on Pentium 4's, but they released one more Pentium 3 processor a lot of people don't know was the actual
prototype to the Pentium 4. & that was the Pentium 3 Tualatin 1.4Ghz processor. It actually is the only P3 to have a heat spreader over the die on the cpu!
Intel only manufactured it in limited quantities, because they wanted to rake in the upcoming P4's. & didn't want people to know they could have achieved
the same first line release power using a P3. The Tualatin 1.Ghz P3 processor was the first ever cpu to have a heatspreader!

This was the adapter I ended up using:

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/6485/i88990selleradaptor0ul.jpg

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/8493/331bright8ih.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9272/d41bright2mo.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3050/i88990linlininstructions2kp.jpg

The computer still turns on, Windows XP loads but I notice a crazy amount of lag time. It's not the hard drives, they all test fine with WD Diagnostics.
All smart tests pass. The pc takes longer then normal to shut down... I had tweaked the OS so nicely that believe it or not the computer runs faster
then some of the pcs I get asked to fix released in recent years. I even have a Macbook and other couple of towers. But this right here is vintage histoy,
I'll do what it takes to bring it back. Btw a new power supply was bought maybe 3 years ago, it's an Antec Earthwatts - no way that could have crapped out.

Here's some photos of the motherboard barebones... I got them off the net, but it's the same one. Wanted to know if capacitors can go BAD without
bulging? Also wanted to know how I can find capacitor replacements - I've never looked for any in my life. But have good enough soldering skills to
switch them easily.

The board was rolled out the manufacturing line in 2000, or 2001. I bought it in a used business computer sale round late 2005. Like I said it has done
similar stuff before 3-4 times during it's lifetime, usually I end up taking it apart - cleaning it up with a vacum and cleaning the contacts/ports with contact
cleaner. & it usually fires up well again after that. I've only had one card fail on me in almost ten years on this machine and that was a usb pci card.
Which I replaced... I'm wondering if the 2nd one I put in went bad. Last I remember when the pc rebooted when I started this thread, it came back on
with a couple of buzzing sounds followed by 4 or 5 beeps. I'm pretty sure it was 4. Never happened again... Turns on now fine, but is way slower then normal.

Maybe you guys can look at these pics and tell me what to check:

http://oi41.tinypic.com/j67nmc.jpg

http://oi40.tinypic.com/l8jgx.jpg

http://oi43.tinypic.com/153odie.jpg

@Digerati

I respect your opinion on recycling old pcs, and I'm glad you're one of the few who has done so in their lives. Many choose to hide them in normal trash,
which is obviously bad for the environment. So I salute you for that, on the other hand you probably don't remember. But you were one of the people that
helped me build it years ago.

I turned this vintage pc:

http://p8.storage.canalblog.com/85/83/694299/49712459.jpg

Into THIS:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/541/xl63.jpg


Anything is possible with a little imagination and some elbow grease. Biggest thing I hate is taking the case apart to get components out it's a pain!
Takes like an hour. Which is why I'm trying to learn as much as I can before I get hands on with fixing the motherboard.

@Rikky

If you know of any good place I can get cheap capacitor replacements let me know.

Thanks

 

I get mine from Farnell in the UK, I don't use RS components any more because of their delivery fee policy.

If your in the US Radio shack I guess, your better off getting a big learning pack with capacitances from 2pf ceramic up to about 100uf electrolytic.

If your doing it properly you need a multimeter that can read capacitances to test the old ones.

 

Well if it were the capacitors why would the computer "still" turn on? As mentioned the only thing I experienced
was a sudden reboot earlier this week, followed by two buzzes, then 4 or 5 beeps coming from the motherboard.
The tower stayed on with nothing showing up on the screen. I had been using it for about 10 minutes before all
if that happened. Did a hard shutdown by holding the pwr button. Turned it back on and it loaded fine. The only
problem I'm experiencing now is slower then usual opening of folders, files, loading usb external drives, etc.
But these "slowdown" symptoms started appearing a week before the sudden reboot. I just don't understand
what that might have to do with capacitors. I would have thought if those go bad the board wouldn't turn on at all.

Trying to test the memory with Memtest 86+ right now...

 

A PIII computer with 512mb of RAM makes a dandy linux-based router . . . very secure.

I'm a bit of an advocate for "outdated" computers. I've inherited dozens of older PC's from friends or friends of friends who have bought a new PC and now consider their old PC to be "junk". I take these machines and refurbish them if possible, or part them if they are no longer functioning properly and use the parts to upgrade or repair other computers. The computers I can save I set up with free antivirus, anti-malware programs, Open Office, etc. I give them to people who need a computer but really can't afford one. Even old computers are good for word processing and basic internet surfing . . . even basic gaming if the board has an AGP port and an HD capable video card. Not everyone wants or needs a cutting edge, gaming powerhouse after all.

I'm often amazed with what people feel is no longer useful, and just want to throw away.

 

Yes. I recently had an ASUS board start blue screening me off and on. No pattern, but it kept happening. I inspected the board and found some swollen caps. Thing would boot fine, 9 out of 10 times, but would always, eventually, blue screen on me.

Dying capacitors make a board do weird things . . . what kind of weird things depends on what part of the board the dying caps affect.

 

That was one good piece of information right there. I'm the the process of
trying to identify all of the capacitors on the motherboard, and buying
replacements for all of them. I think I only need 21 capacitors, and hopefully
they're not so expensive. I got 35 capacitors off eBay for an unrelated mother
board for some other vintage hardware. A "Sega Game Gear" if you guys
remember that nifty little portable handheld. Used to run Sonic in 2D, although
I never got a chance to replace the capacitors as yet. I think I might just
use that as a project to get some practice before I do it on my motherboard.
In fact I'll probably contact the seller I got them from and maybe he can
help me get replacements for my motherboard capacitors. Since he supposedly
uses the highest quality brand (as per his listings for video game console capacitors).

From watching a bit of Youtube videos on capacitors I'm learning they can
least 10 years or so if they're ok brands, longer if they're really superior, and
won't make it past a few years if they're cheap kinds. Another thing I've learned is
how capacitors can just dry out (ruin), by just being on a motherboard without being
used in a dry climate/area. This winter has been very dry. I live in the north so it's possible...

We'll see what gets this thing going. I have a jewelery eye glasses headset/loupe. I'm
going to have to check the soldering points everywhere too as per what Joffa suggested.
Think I'll do all of this tomorrow since it's the weekend.

It's worth a shot seeing what happens if I do replace all of the capacitors. Anyone know
how long fuses can last? I notice they're much smaller components, and also placed
all over motherboards in some places.

 

Those "fuses" are probably diodes. Good luck with your horse, lotta time spent,

 

I agree with spad, dying capacitors will not necessarily prevent the computer from turning on, or even running - at least for awhile.

 

Hey superstar sorry I missed a couple of days. We have been having a heatwave here in Melbourne and first the work network went down and then two workstations died so I haven't had time to scratch myself. I replied to your pm

BTW that adapter you are using I have at least one in a carcass in my workshop somewhere. It looks identical and I used to have two of them in two systems that were dedicated to autorouting pcbs a long time ago. I found as they got older (two years old) the socket became intermittently unreliable. You would leave a board to route overnight and BSOD next morning instead of a finished job. I found reseating the adapter and the cpu in the adapter would fix the problem for a few weeks it wasn't a proper fix but they weren't actually owned by me then, they were the R&D departments spares and I just used them and it wasn't worth spending time on them because they were being replaced with P4s. I saved them from the dumpster when they were replaced as they both had Matrox graphics cards and extra RAM which I pillaged to be used in my own machines :-D

Pity the closeup mobo pics aren't actually your mobo coz then we could see the caps and general condition for ourselves.

Hmm its 4:30am and I will finish reading this thread sometime tomorrow :zzz
Cheers

 

Good stuff, good stuff here! I'm learning a lot!

If anything threads like these give a bit of insight into general topic
information. I just finished testing the memory with Memtest 86 and
there were no ram errors for over 9 hours of passes. I'm sure it's
the board.

I have to admit something here... I don't think I had ever mentioned this
to anyone. It slipped my mind, but around 3-4 years ago I remember
cleaning the inside of my computer case, and noticing a leaky
substance (albeit a few drops), close to the topside of the agp slot.
I remember touching it was kid of like oil on the fingers, and dark.
While the motherboard was in place... It lead me to think maybe a
capacitor was leaking. At the time I looked but couldn't see where it
was coming from. I wiped it away and never saw that happen again.
Which of course is probably a good reason for me to try switching the
capacitors now.

I have time today and will make a last ditch effort before I start removing
capacitors. & that would be to remove certain pci cards, just to see if
one of them is causing issues. I'm sure it's not that though...

As for replacement of the capacitors, anyone know how I can go about
choosing new ones? (ie: brands, rating)

I don't know anything about buying capacitors other then how to solder
them back. I heard you have to have the same rating, or higher - I dunno.
Someone please give me a general guideline and I will get them at a local
shop I just called. Their store employees don't know much about the ratings,
all they do is sell the products.

Thanks

 

The best caps you can get are Japanese electrolytic for build quality, tolerance and longivity but are expensive.

The Farad rating has to be the same but it doesn't have to be the same size, the capacitor type has to be the same i.e don't use electrolytic in place of ceramic or tantalum, you can google these to get an idea of what they look like but you should only be replacing electrolytic.

Like I said get a an education pack for schools e.g

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/radial-electrolytic-capacitor-120-piece-pack-n68bt

Any large ones you need order separately.

Take a good photo of the board or multiple photo's as backup in case. Electrolytic caps are polarized so they have to go back in the board the same way, if not they won't work and can explode, the negative is marked with a grey or gold stripe and -.

Here's what I do- Check the cap value while it's in the board with a multimeter if it's fine leave it, if not remove from board, retest with multimeter then either replace or resolder.

EDIT

I've posted for educational purposes, I don't recommend you replace every capacitor on the board:-D

 

Great post, I learned a bit from you there. So as I mentioned before I see 21 or 22 electrolytic capacitors on my motherboard. So you're saying you don't think I should replace them all? I once heard someone say if you're replacing electrolytic capacitors off an old board, you might as well replace them all while you're at it to avoid future mishaps.

Geez you know I didn't realize until now that you mentioned it (and I Googled it), I thought ceramic capacitors were miniature fuses. Guess I was quite wrong about that. Remember I'm still learning more about board parts down to the small detail.

That price is really good for a 120 pack, even if they're from the UK! I would take it they aren't Japanese capacitors though... I've got the case opened (sigh takes forever), taking this old board out to give it a glance as close as I can. I'll post pics in a bit...

Thanks

 

Forgot to ask what would be the difference between solid polymer and radial capacitors?
I've been watching some YouTube videos that say the solid ones are better. If that's the
case can a position held by a radial capacitor be switched with a solid one for better
lifespan/performance?

http://www.capacitorlab.com/capacitor-types-electrolytic/radial-capacitor-polarity.jpg

http://www.pcstats.com/articleimages/200702/Gigabyte965PDq6_m.jpg

 

Not done much research into solid polymer capacitors, AFAIK solid capacitors are reserved for super capacitors with huge capacitances which you don't need but it depends entirely on the video and the application.

I've yet to build a project that needed one.

'Polymer capacitors' instead of as you said 'solid polymer capacitors' just mean the capacitor uses a polymer dielectric between the plates.

But your moving onto improving on a design that has been used successfully on that very motherboard for nearly 10 years i.e the electrolytic capacitor, there's nothing wrong with those capacitors.

EDIT BTW if you live in the US amazon have the same pack for five bucks.

http://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Elec...qid=1390007680&sr=1-4&keywords=capacitor+pack

 

So here I am late night... Diagnosing my HP Vectra VL400 motherboard (fun stuff anyways it's not like I have computers coming off the assembly line to fix). I love small projects, but well this time I pulled out the usb pci card. I had one go bad years ago and replaced it with the same model/brand. Figured it could be that, so I removed it but still noticed unusual lag when accessing my hard drives. Like I said before SMART tests on the drives PASS. I also mentioned I was getting slow external usb drive speeds too before. Those drives work fine/fast on my other tower. Anyways back to the point I removed the usb card and still noticed the lag, so I popped it back in.

This time the computer crashed again (as per my 1st post). When it did gave out a couple of horrendous warbling sound buzzes from the mobo speaker, then this time I attentively listened to the beeps that followed. It was 6 beeps... I'm positive now it was that many. The first time (as per my 1st post), I wasn't sure if it was 4 or 5. But now I know! Since when it initially happened I wasn't paying attention. It crashed while I turned on an external usb drive, that did a supremely slow "autoplay." The power stayed on after the crash, no video signal on screen afterwards, & I had to do a force shutdown by holding the pwr button for 5 secs.

 

Here is some reading about capacitor types that might be informative.

Brand wise I like Murata, Vishay and Elna caps as I have a lot of experience with them and (touch wood) they have always been reliable. The Japanese Murata I think are the best but they are also the most expensive so I probably use Vishay the most. I have also used Kemet, Nichicon, Elcon and Lela brands and they are mostly OK. Some of the differences between brands relates to how much capacitance at what voltage rating they can squeeze into what size package. Generally the smaller the package for a given value and voltage rating then the higher the price. Before you buy replacement caps be sure to accurately measure the physical dimensions (I use a vernier gauge) of the device so you can be sure the replacement will fit in the same position. Be aware some caps have polarised offset leads and others have symetrical leads so make sure you get the correct type.

Solid polymer caps are good but harder to get in small quantities and are used in high temperature locations that would dry out the electrolyte gel in regular electros. These are now used on nearly all high performance motherboards but if you were going to switch to solid polymer you would have to research compatible package sizes and appropriate voltage ratings. Solid polymer caps usually have a better tolerance rating and in use, hold their tolerance over a much wider temperature range which is a plus and also they don't leak.
In your case I would just replace the standard electros with standard electros so you don't introduce the possibility of new faults caused by incorrect substitution. Measure each cap with a meter and only replace the ones that are more than 10% out of tolerance.

Here is a link to vectra beep codes. It is looking like a corrupted BIOS IIRC I think they have Phoenix BIOS but I'm not 100% sure and haven't got time to look it up

Let us know how you get on:wave

 

I'm seeing online how 6 beep codes for my board is a corrupted bios too. But how the heck could that have happened? & could bad caps cause this?

Just found out the wharble tones (sounds kind of like a modem) followed by a series of 6 beeps. Is actually the model, serial, and post error encoded in the tone. HP agents (used to) have software that could decipher this tone through the phone to get the unit info and problem description. A great idea, but never practically took off. The tones I'm hearing are unrelated of course. So now I'm trying to figure out what the heck I can do to fix my corrupted bios, and take it from there. I'll be posting motherboard photos soon.

@Joffa

I just read your reason for editing your post above! LOL. Classic! Wonder if anyone will catch mine...

 

Yup it's 6 beeps. I did what the technical reference manual states here to hear the codes again.
I had to do it after my last hard shutdown. Funny Windows XP still loads up... If I remember
correctly I should have the Crisis Recovery files on the very same machine. Dang...

http://oi42.tinypic.com/es5itl.jpg

 

Sorry, but the best caps are Japanese "solid" capacitors, not electrolytics.

The whole issue with electrolytics is they contain electrolytes - which is a liquid dielectric. And when the liquid gets hot, it expands. This electrolyte in weak (cheap, flawed) electrolytic caps will expand when heated (as matter does when heated) and cause the caps to bulge and in extreme cases, pop open at the stress relief points (the "K" and similar points on the tops and at the seams), and the liquid electrolytes will leak out. This dried foam looking stuff is caustic to fingers, PCBs, and other components. In very extreme cases, these bad caps can explode with a resounding "bang".

Japanese "solid" caps use solid (not liquid) dielectric materials inside. They cannot leak and that is what makes them better for use on motherboards.

 

In the context of the electrolytic capacitors being replaced they are the best, they are direct,improved replacements.

If a board was covered in solid polymer caps I'd replace them with the same or better quality polymer caps, all caps are not the same they have different electronic properties.

Bit nit picky Digerati.:confused

 

So since I'm getting a corrupt bios beep code what can I do? I've got the last release version of my bios available, but don't know if I should flash it onto there. Really wish I could find "ip.01.07us" which is the one I have currently.

 

I concur Rikky +1 good accurate +1 info :cool
Solid polymer caps are not a direct exact replacement for electrolytic caps as they have a different charge and discharge curve. In a tank cap on a power supply this is an issue but if the cap is used in a timing circuit this is a very big issue as time constants change. Also the ESR (equivalent series resistance) is much lower than a wet dielectric electrolytic meaning solid polymer are generally better for high ripple applications. Lastly solid polymer caps usually only go to about 35V so if you were replacing caps on a high voltage power supply the solid polymer cap would fail.

If you swap standard electrolytic caps on a motherboard for solid polymer caps they would most likely work and be an improvement but you would have a lot of trouble getting the same component packages per the same value caps so you would have to have the caps sitting up on their leads and IMHO too much trouble to be worth all the effort of sourcing them and then fitting them. OK if you work in an large electronics lab and have a range of these caps on hand, like I used to, but now if I had to go and source them myself then all too much trouble for the small gain.

@superstar check your pms I have answered your BIOS question :cool

 

Well here are the photos of my motherboard you requested Joffa! Don't mind the batches of electrical tape I cut out in a circle to cover the mobo speaker. Boy that thing is loud, it was the only way to silence it a bit more years ago.
I took the fan off the heatsink, just because I'm vacuuming that area. To the naked eye so far I'm not seeing any cold solder joints, or leaking caps. I'm gonna clean her up with a can of compressed air, vacum, and some contact cleaner I have made by Sabo. Which is supposedly safe on printed circuit boards according to the label. Then I'm just going to breadboard the system, and try it with certain things connected "outside" of the case laying flat on an esd bag as you see in the photo. If you need more pics let me know.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/dw8mip.jpg

http://oi44.tinypic.com/hssso1.jpg

http://oi44.tinypic.com/6prxu1.jpg

http://oi42.tinypic.com/z1kxg.jpg

http://oi41.tinypic.com/mc9e0y.jpg

http://oi40.tinypic.com/wcd3pw.jpg
http://oi42.tinypic.com/21jn5zt.jpg

 

suoerstar, please learn how to post thumbnails. 6 full sized images in one post is ridiculous. Send the links to Joffa via a PM.

 

Thanks for the pics they are great but as plodr says they should have been reduced in size and saved in a smaller resolution to be posted in the thread.
BTW if you want to just have the links to the pics shown without pics being displayed then wrap them in code tags like the example below.

Code:

http://blog-imgs-30-origin.fc2.com/m/a/m/mamopage/vl400-03-933mhz.jpg

For a 12 or 13 year old mobo the electros look great. None appear to be bulging but this doesn't rule out if they have just dried out inside. If you really want to know how healthy the caps are, then you can't avoid checking with a meter that measures capacitance and as said before if they are more than 10% different than their quoted value then they should be replaced.

Also there is a lot of dust sitting on the solder mask and on some components near the AGP slot probably from the graphics card fan. Grab a stiff bristle brush and some isopropyl alcohol and give it a good clean and any other area on the board that has a build up. This isn't essential but just good housekeeping.

Personally I would concentrate on the corrupt BIOS problem. Reload with the latest version and see if your problem disappears.

We may be chasing shadows here.
Cheers

 

What's the best way to apply the alcohol on the board? pouring a bit of alcohol on a brush, q tip, or cotton pad?

Thanks

 

Pour some isopropyl alcohol into a small tin or jar (I use the top of a spray can than doesn't have a hole in it) then dip the brush into it. I use a ½" wide stiff paint brush and brush quite vigorously then wipe the excess off with some paper towel. Don't worry if there is some alcohol left on the board as it evaporates quite quickly especially if it is 99% pure isopropyl alcohol. When finished discard the contaminated alcohol in the small container.

Cheers

 

And a personal affront was necessary, or helpful to the thread?

I call it being technically correct. I think you are being too sensitive and taking personal offense when none was meant when someone (me in this case) says something different to our own comment.

The issue with bad caps (bulging and/or leaky) on motherboards was all about the use of inferior (read: inexpensive) "electrolytic" - not "solid" (non-liquid) capacitors.

Plus I note there is often confusion over the term "solid" as it is often confused by the layperson with "solid state" - which is totally unrelated to "solid capacitors".

As far as alcohol on the board, I agree with joffa and recommend the use of 91-93% (never seen 99% but use that if you can find it). The problem with common 71-73% isopropyl alcohol is that it can leave a film. The use of a cotton swab on smooth flat surfaces like the CPU die and heatsink is fine. But for slots and connectors, I would worry the swab would tear and leave cotton fibers that might interfere with a good mechanical connection (essential for a good electrical connection).

For slot and other electrical contacts, I recommend using Electrical Contact Cleaner. This stuff is designed to clean contacts, push out moisture, and leave no residue behind.

 

I get my 99% pure (laboratory grade) Isopropyl from an Industrial laboratory supply house over here. The company I use is called Labtek and they sell all kinds of handy chemicals and scientific gear.
You can get up to 99.999% pure (reagent grade) and it comes with an analysis certificate and it comes with a price more than double of the 99% pure (laboratory grade). I pay about A$20 for a litre of 99% and I also have 500ml of 99.999% pure that cost A$35 quite a few years ago. I used to use the 99.999% for cleaning the heads in video recorders but there is not much call for it these days so it now mostly sits on the shelf.

re: contact cleaner
PCB wise you need to be a bit careful here as some brands of electrical contact cleaner are made for cleaning relay and switch contacts and also have a lubricant to lubricate the knife edge or fulcrum of the armature in the relay or the switch mechanism as well as clean the electrical contacts and these leave a greasy film that attracts dust on PCBs.
Another problem I have often seen is that some brands of contact cleaner (often the cheaper ones) have Trichlorethane, or Xylene also known as Xylol, or Toluene also known as Toluol in small amounts to give a more aggressive cleaning action and although in small amounts, it doesn't usually damage the soldermask or any clear conformal coating on the board, it definitely can damage the silkscreen component labels and so all the component identification can lose adhesion and flake off. The reason they use these chemicals is because they are very good organic solvents and are intended to shift greasy deposits but they also shift the oil based epoxy enamel used by PCB manufacturers for the component overlay. In many countries these solvents are being phased out due to toxicity issues to the environment and health issues to the user.
Please note most better quality PCBs made in the last 8 or so years may have an acrylic based photo imageable ink instead of epoxy enamel (they can print smaller size text with epoxy enamel so still sometimes used) and this is not usually affected. Also some small volume PCBs are now having the component overlay printed with an inkjet printer but I don't have very much data on the ink used except that it is usually a water based acrylic polymer.

Hope this clears a few things up :major

If you want to read about organic solvents here are a few links
Link for Trichlorethane
Link for Xylene also known as Xylol
Link to Toluene also known as Toluol

If you want to learn more about PCB design and fabrication check the links below
Link to PCB Fabrication
Link to site explaining their process from start to finish. A huge resource

Cheers

 

Good as good information here Digerati & Joffa. I'm learning so it's great to have my old board to play with. I had used contact cleaner, or 99% isopropyl alcohol to clean the contact edge of pci/agp cards before. But would have never thought to dip a clean brush in it, and scrub away at the entire motherboard. Usually I'd use one of my girlfriends old makeup brushes to wipe dust off cards, I'd never touch the motherboard and only use a can of compressed air for that because I thought it was too sensitive. And a can of compressed air doesn't do the best job of full dust removal. But I was always left with a small film that would come off a tiny bit more by sticking electrical tape on it, and pulling it off (over and over again). I found a brand new unused somewhat stiff paint brush in my basement. Was down there for a couple years, not too dusty - my computer was dustier (slapped it about for 5-6 mins to make sure there was no dust on it). Did the method Joffa suggested with some 99% isopropyl alcohol, & voila I've NEVER seen a pcb circuit board cleaner in my life. For craps sake I can see my reflection. And it didn't damage a thing from the looks of it.

I did however go over the bios chip and CMOS battery while cleaning this way. Hope that would have no affect on the system. As I've seen a test on YouTube where a technician uses a multimeter to prove 70% and 99% isopropyl alcohol is non conductive. You can check his video out here for informational purposes, as he also tests tap water & salt water:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV4sTpN-_58

I've handled this board over and over during the years. Probably fiddled with it 20-30 times max, just to install stuff or remove stuff. I notice after cleaning using. Joffa's method there were what looked to be 2-3 tiny (you'd have to look closely at 5 inches away), white corrosive looking spots no longer then a couple or so millimeters. One of them was on the backside connecting two CPU soldering points. They're all gone 100% gone now. I had tried to remove it with my finger so many times in the past, even with gentle force to no avail. Which leads me to ask...

I've always tried to have clean hands when handling my motherboard. But when I was learning years ago I used to touch it even if my hands weren't just recently washed. I wasn't so aware of the clean factor back then. Can natural skin oils/grease contaminate a board, and potential cause shorts or other weird behavior over time?

Now this is going to be a silly question, but hey Joffa your brush method works great on the motherboard. Can I apply the same method to my cards, and ram? Just asking because I figure the cards are okay to do the same. But for some reason I'm thinking the ram is much more sensitive?

Probably wouldn't be an issue as I bet all parts use the same or similar materials.

Thanks guys

 

Ah! I see. Thanks. If you go to a local drug store ("chemist" in England - not sure where you are) but Walgreens or CVS Pharmacy in the US you can get 93%. We use 93% to clean old thermal paste from CPUs and heatsinks.

I agree but please note I specifically noted that cleaner for slots and electrical contacts - not for cleaning motherboards. And I suggested CRC QD Electronic Cleaner in particular because it uses alcohol mix for its base - thus no residue. Nor does it have those highly toxic solvent chemicals (though this should be used in well ventilated areas too).

For me, if want to clean a motherboard (or case interior) I lug it outside and blast it with my air compressor. Highly recommended!

Use wooden popsicle sticks to hold fans stationary - you can easily spin them beyond design limits, destroying the bearings.

Toggle down the PSI to no more than 90PSI, make sure condensation buildup in the tank is not excessive (more of a problem for horizontal tanks).

And for sure, equip the compressor with a suitable in-line moisture and particulate filter so you don't spew nasty, rusty, oily water all over your electronics.

Back in the day, PC motherboards were very expensive - worth spending time to fix. But they are almost disposable now. For sure, for the price for 1 hour of good technician's time, you can get a really nice new board.

Not likely shorts, but skin oils can definitely promote corrosion on and around some metallic surfaces. In particular you should never touch with your bare fingers a CMOS (or the contacts of any) battery. Or at least, thoroughly clean it before inserting. I put a clean sock over my hand when I replace motherboard batteries.

I wear blue jeans most of the time - without a doubt, great material for cleaning CMOS, AA, AAA, etc. type batteries.

 

I agree, personally I'm just doing everything in this thread to see if I can keep my vintage board from going. Would be cool to power up this pc in years time and have other techs "wow" at it's age, and remember some cool old software. But I'm even more so doing it for the learning factor. I never knew anything about capacitors until now, didn't know how to adequately clean a motherboard either. & Joffa really blew me away with the info he gave me about the way motherboards are made in layers with buried vias at times and such.

What's a good way to clean the top of a CMOS battery once it's in place over time? As I mentioned in my previous post I brushed it with some isopropyl alcohol last night. But I'd love to wipe it cleaner. I have contact cleaner that is non conductive to 25,000 voltz can I use that? It's the one below... Got it on a trip to Latin America. Says it's good for "Contacts, printed circuit boards, precision instruments, electrical parts, motors, switches, etc. Fast drying and leaves no residue. Can be safely applied to plastics, rubber, and metal. Easily removes oil, grease, flux, and dirt."


http://xdxpc.com/image/cache/SABO-CONTACLEAN-500x500.jpg

As for card slots I usually take a clean old credit card (wiped with 99% isopropyl alcohol), and cover it with a clean, lint free eyeglasses cloth. Spray some contact cleaner on it's edge, then stab it in & out of the slots over and over until I've got a good look going.

 

It really should not get dirty, other than dust drawn in by the fan. So an occasional blast of compressed air should do.

I would worry the stiff, unyielding card edge would damage a contact. Or too much pressure on a contact would damage the tension. What works good is a graphics card inserted and pulled from the slot a couple times, taking care to go in straight and not at an angle.

If no spare graphics card (or PCI, or AGP - depending on slot), a crisp clean dollar bill provides enough roughness to clean but not damage the contacts.

 

I wouldn't go over board with the cleaning Superstar, the more you mess with it the more likely something will get snapped off or bent.

You really want to clean it properly get an air compressor and blow everything out, you don't want to start jamming credit cards into the slots.

Wipe it down with a residue less cleaner, I use contact cleaner for normal dirt and citric cleaner for stubborn stuff then clean the citric off with contact cleaner or residue less cleaner.

 

@Digerati

Don't know if I'd use money with all the hands it passes through. I'm not trying to give my motherboard a staph infection!
Just kidding - Would ESET wipe those viruses out? :-D

http://oi41.tinypic.com/1zfjwvo.jpg

Source: Time Magazine

 

That's why I said a crisp, clean bill.

Long ago and far away I used to maintain telephone switching equipment used by the Control Tower to control our transmitters and receivers. The switching equipment used banks and banks of mechanical relays that were not sealed so the contacts would "carbon up" over time.

We had burnishing tools but a brand new, crisp, clean dollar bill, which is made of cloth fibers, not paper, worked better.

Besides, don't coke heads use $20s?

 

@Digerati

LOL!

So were you doing telecom, like OPI work and stuff like that? 2 pair, 4 pair, 100 pair, 300 pair?

I found some time to finish cleaning the rest of this system. Bout to fire it up within the hour...
For the life of me how the heck do you take fingerprints off a psu???? Every damn psu I buy
I handle with my bare hands and always get fingerprints on them that never come off!
& this is while having clean hands!