John Lennon

Tomorrow is the 25th anniversary of John Lennon`s murder. When it happened I was devastated, he`d been in seclusion for awhile and had just released a new album, with more in the works. I`d like to say he was a great musician, a good, though sometimes troubled man, and I still miss him and his music in a big way. It`s sad, but also sad that the rat-bas***d that committed this horrible crime is eligible for parole again in the spring. I, along with many others, I`m sure, will write a letter to the New York State Department of Corrections begging them to keep that scum imprisoned.

 

I am a little young to remember him but I can say that I liked his music and his message. Unfortunately I have to disagree with keeping his killer in jail. We send people to jail so they have a chance to rehabilitate. If this man is deemed to be repentant and truly sorry for his crime and has shown that he can be a productive member of society again, he should be released. A lot can change in a man in 25 years. Of course, if he does not show remorse for his actions then he should remain in prison. That is for a psychiatrist to decide. Just my opinion.

 

Everyone is entitled to thier opinion, I served in the military to help safeguard that right. I`m just of the opinion that when someone shoots an innocent man in the BACK 4 times, well, perhaps lethal injection or the gas chamber would have been a better option. I`ll admit that perhaps the fact I`ve always been a Lennon fan may be clouding this over, but that`s me, too damned old to change.

 

I wasn't particularly a fan of Lennon's music, but I WHOLEHEARTEDLY feel that the death penalty is underused for the past 50 years or so. The folks that feel that it is cruel and inhuman punishment didn't get killed or raped by that turdbucket in the first place. When it takes 15-20 years of idiotic delays and appeals to wipe some scum off the face of the planet, I say, it was 15 years too long. /rant

 

*Wonders why we have the word "forgiveness" in the dictionary...........*


I'm not saying it's easy ( or even possible every time), but it beats carrying a lifetime's load of anger and bitterness about IMHO

 

I can forgive a slight, or an accident, but cold-blooded, cowardly, (from behind) pre-meditated murder is unforgiveable.

 

Man, why do I feel like I have the weight of everybody's suffering on my shoulders today......

 

Downing the MJB as we speak..... maybe I should drop a touch of JD in it...

 

I like to think of myself as a forgiving person. This was in cold blood, and he should be watched for the rest of his life. Preferable with a high powered rifle scope.

 

I`ll scout the location it`s only 20 miles from here.

 

25 years today...I still miss him, and I`m wearing my "Instant Karma" tee today.

 

"It's not fun being a genius, it's torture." - John Lennon

 

I found john lennon to be a great song writer but towards the end he was one of the most pretious people ever he was a genius then an arrogent sob that is always over looked.

 

Ummm...didn't he die before you were born?

 

yeah but i have seen footage and read what he has said

 

For the same reason we have the word "consequences" in the dictionary.

Both are appropriate for certain circumstances. Sometimes for the same circumstances.

On a personal level, forgiveness is a great thing. It relieves you of the sometimes crushing emotional baggage that hatred carries with it.

But on the judicial level, forgiveness is not part of the law. Justice and protection of society from the scum of the earth are the primary goals. Protection of the innocent. Justice for the innocent. Both life sentences and death penalties are designed to permanently remove people from society that have done things that society finds totally abhorrent. The point is not revenge for the victims, it's to protect society from the predators. Unfortunately, death sentences are almost NEVER imposed, and when they are, it takes so many years to actually kill the guilty that other than a few high profile cases, nobody remembers who or why. So other than insuring that the guilty never again kills, it doesn't deter much. Life sentences are almost never life sentences either. Eventually we forget and forgive and turn them back out on the streets again. And "rehabilitation" is the next best thing to non-existent. Most of those released go back to tyranizing the innocent. Escept for the high provile cases like this one, MOST murderers are back out on the streets in a few years, which I find tragic. For society.

Compassion is a good thing. Unfortunately our compassion is frequently misplaced. I have compassion for the innocent people who's lives are ruined by criminals, NOT for the criminals themselves. But the future innocent victims of crime are faceless and anonymous, and are never put in our awareness to think about, so we only think about the poor criminals and end up feeling "forgiveness" for them, forgetting the damage most of them will do in the future.

Hatred and high emotion are not necessary to support tough laws. Compassion for the innocent is more than enough.

 

I hear you G.T. and totally understand you viewpoint, and for the most part agree with it.

I just keep thinking back to this though, that makes me struggle with a zero tolerance approach.....

When we are born, we are born innocent, free from criminal shame and guilt. We've never committed a horrendous crime or even have any intentions of doing so. We don't even know what crime is. Then life's experiences begin to shape and form us into the adults we become (or for some criminals even earlier than adulthood). As a human race we were designed as a community co-habiting species, but somewhere along the way things go wrong with some people. Sometimes those things are not within our control as an individual. I'm not just talking mental illness here, which seems to be a way of reducing murder sentences. The parenting we receive as very young infants instills in us the coping mechanisms we need for all aspects of life. So one day someone gets in a person's face, that person has never developed anger maangement coping strategies, or has seen his parents act out so much, he fires back and his actions cause a death. You and I have been fortunate that the walk of life we have been given has not led us down this road. The hypothetical guy in my example was not. Before he knows it, he's in deep. It is a case of "there but for the grace of God go I". All because of the luck of the draw of the parenting skills you receive. Is it not possible that person can be rehabilitated? No-one is ever born with the intention of harming another.

I'm not explaining what I want to very well here. I just can't seem to find the words to express myself properly. I just keep thinking if I had been pressured so much in life I snapped enough to murder someone, I know I would regret it, but society would never give me that second chance?? Not even after 25 years when I had matured some and developed better social skills and undergone rehab?

BTW I'm talking generally here...I have no idea if JL's killer has regrets and remorse.

 

Towards the end John Lennon had conquered most of his personal demons and was ANYTHING but arrogant. He was a warm, kind and passionate man who`d been to hell`s gate and back, and had recovered his creativity once again.

 

@ GT and Lev


I don`t know if you two have heard of Arthur Shawcross...a serial killer in Rochester NY. He`s one reason I`m so hot on the death penalty, however long it takes. In the mid 60`s he raped and murdered two children in Watertown NY. After his parole(?!??!?!?!?!?!?!??),WTF...after only 18 years, he murdered 11 women that the authorities know of, and maybe even more.

 

But why the death penalty. I hate to state the obvious, but it's pretty final. Why not just lock them up...life sentence being a real life sentence...no parole? It seems to me by using the death penalty the murderer suffers no more..out of misery, not having to face any consequences for his actions. I know if I killed someoone this would be a relief to me to receive the death penalty and not have to face my miserable existence. Additionally, the death penalty sentence spreads the "emotional baggage" problem. Instead of the murderer having to face himself on a daily basis, instead the jury who convicted him would have to constantly wrestle with ensuring they did teh right thing in sentencing him to death for the rest of their lives. I would want to live with that decision...not sure I could even make it!

If murder is wrong, what gives anyone the right to justify any death....

 

Its just my opinion i know to many he was an idol thats fine by me but i just hate the whole hippy thing anyway.

 

Yup, I knew someone would bring to account the financial factor. I agree I would prefer it went to homeless youth...it's my area of work.........but does the money saved from killing these murderers actually go there? I would hazard a guess that there are strict boundaries and plenty of red tape around moving funds from one deisgnated area to another, even if it all come under the umbrella of government finance.

I struggle with using money as the definitive answer to legalizing murder.

 

I went through that "hippy thing" as you call it. If more folks had the attitudes of those "hippies" the world`d be a happier calmer place.

 

@funky munky What would the “whole hippy thing, be” for someone of your age?….it’s just history to you

 

Yup, I went through it too. Used to live on a narrowboat Certainly makes the world a hairy-er place

 

Did the boat ever leave the dock, or was it like a houseboat, without a motor

 

I'm against the death penalty not for the reasons posted so far as I agree with most all of them for and against,I'm apposed because of the judicial system in pretty much any country isnt perfect we are human we make mistakes if 1000 people are executed to keep us all safe but one innocent man is also killed due to human error,mis-interpretation of the evidence,poor defense lawyer,bias jury,bias judge,arguably the best legal systems in the world UK and US are vary flawed

This makes it unacceptable to me as that mans death can can never be undone,as we are finding out now men who have been executed have now been proven innocent by DNA and of course men who are convicted by DNA today may also be freed by some other form of evidence in the future

I just think the systems we have in place are far too juvenile and flawed to use the death penalty

My $2

 

I also lived thru that hole " Hippy Thing" and I dont consider John Lennon to be an Idol, but Him and his music are burnt into my brain.

When I hear music from those days it usually brings back very good memories of what we were doing and the friends that I was with.

The night Lennon died we gathered at a friends house and listened to a bunch of Beatles tunes and talked about a little bit of everything, it was if a small part of our lives had died that day.
I still cant beleive there are idiots out there that can take someones life in cold blood like that.

 

All of the above

It was an old 1920's coal barge, with no engine. It was what they called a butty...one of the subsequent boats that was towed behind the first one which did have an engine, or was moved using a barge pole. We used to move it either with a pole, or a friend we travelled with had an engine propelled boat and would tow is. It had been converted into a house boat from it's traditionally coal carrying style, but still had the central plank with tarps, only the tarps had "windows" in when it was houseboat to allow light in.

Hmm...I was trying to find you a picture, but I only succeed in finding something that has brought back some hard memories. Off to find chocolate now......

 

Ever heard of Stanley "Tookie" Williams? "Tookie" sounds like some kid's toy teddy bear, but Tookie sure wasn't a teddy bear. He was the founder and leader of the Crips street/drug gang that has been the death and ruin of many many lives. He was convicted of four cold-blooded murders, and sentenced to death 25 YEARS ago. He's run out of appeals, and a lot of people, many Hollywood celebrities, are now pushing for postponement and outright clemency. See here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10283433/

Here's what they actually convicted him of:
http://da.co.la.ca.us/pdf/swilliams.pdf

What gives society the "right" to condemn a man to death is justice. Demanding the ultimate penalty for committing the ultimate crime. If we can't even count on someone like Tookie staying off the streets, even WITH a death penalty conviction for 4 cold blooded murders, our society has lost all sense of justice. The only convictions we can count on to STICK are the ones where the scumbag is under 6 feet of dirt.

Whether we're talking death penalty or life imprisonment, the families and loved ones of the victims are dragged through agony over and over again, either from appeals to higher courts (almost endless) or hearings for parole and release. It ain't over for them when the prison door slams. Not for many many years.

 

Wasn't a particularly big fan of him or his music, but I wonder how many of you found out of his murder the way I did...


http://rapidshare.de/files/8839566/MNF.wav.html

 

You found out from RapidShare?

 

uh, no

I uploaded a file to them, at the bottom of the page wherer it says "Select Your Download" , click "free", and when the next page opens, enter the code and the file will download. Abby told me about the site, wasn't aware it had a couple of hoops to jump through for a simple download. I tried zipping the file to attach, but it was a bit over MG's limit.

It's a popular upload/download site it seems, but I'd never heard of it until she mentioned it.

 

I couldn;t download the .pdf on dial-up. It locked my computer twice, but made me order my dsl connection tonight

I hear ya GT but I also hear what Rikky said....humans make mistakes and we can never be 100% certain, especially if the person is claiming to be not guilty. Even if they claim to be guilty, that isn't a sure thing either.

I guess my faith and belief in God comes into play here too. I'm not going to elaborate as we recently did this in a different thread, but I am happy to discuss it if people want to head that way at all with the topic

@Star...awful way to hear the news. I can remember sitting infront of the TV with my Mom when the news flash came on. I'd never had much following for Lennon, but I remember feeling a deep and distinct sense of loss and sadness at the news, which, if you had known me back then, would have amazed you that I was capable of any reaction at all.

 

Wasn't sure if the "Free" was going to download clean or try to install something, and being at work, I was cautious.

No, Howard Cosell didn't tell me about it. I wasn't a football fan even back then.

 

Well, that's a good thing regardless, but shouldn't have been an issue; it's only about 2.5 megabytes. Right click the link and "Save As", and you can save it to your desktop and open it from there. I assume you've got Adobe Acrobat Reader installed?

I understand Rikky's point, and agree that we need to do all we can, more than we sometimes do, to make sure the innocent are not convicted. And even now, our system is designed to let the guilty go often enough rather than make that mistake. But we generally do the best we can, and the few mistakes we make do not outweigh the huge number of innocent people that are killed and victimized by released criminals. Most crooks have rap sheets as long as a novella, yet they are released over and over and over again. I remember a study in the 1980s IIRC that noted that over 800 police officers killed in the line of duty would still be alive if convicted murderers were stopped after their FIRST murder. And FAR more civilians are killed than cops every year. I'd happily go along with cast iron life sentences, but we will NOT enforce them.

My belief in God factors into my views as well, and I'm glad to see any convict (as well as any others) find God and turn their lives around. But that does not change the dynamics of a society, heavily populated with the ungodly, and God was not a pacifist. Read the Law in the Old Testament, and note how many capital offences THEY believed in. Also note that Christ commanded His disciples to carry swords into the Garden of Gethsemane, and that the commandment most commonly translated as "thou shalt not kill", in the original was clearly "thou shalt not commit murder", which is an entirely different thing.

 

It, (the download size) isn't an issue. What is though is the crap service I am currently getting from Netzero at 1.9kb/sec Yes, I do have Adobe...maybe I will just try again from work tomorrow

Ummm.....what is a Novella Why don't they enforce life sentences? What's the deal there? There are certain cases in the UK where they are enforced that I can think of...Mira Hindley, Rose West ...why is it always the women ??

I hear the areas of scripture you are referring to and know them. But also what about God being the only Creator who gives and takes away? What about sin in His eyes being anything that is not good...there is no greater sin e.g. murder. In His eyes all sin offends. This is kinda where I came in...all sin offends but He forgives all but the unforgiveable sin....blasphemy. Shouldn't we strive to do this too, as a Christian country?

I see you signature Gary...that has me thinking down a whole different path altogether

 

A short novel (a LONG rap sheet)

Several reasons. One, jails are overcrowded, and there is almost a revolving door policy where in order to put someone new in, they're forced to let someone else out. More importantly in life/death cases, good hearted, soft hearted, soft headed people feel a misplaced sense of compassion. See the attachment below. The author said it better than I could.

There is a difference between personal responsibility and government/societal responsibility, and that's clearly reflected in God's laws. And in both cases, "forgiveness" is heavily misunderstood.

1. God clearly does NOT "forgive all sin". He established a plan to pay for sin, but sin is NOT forgiven unless and until the sinner repents and changes his ways. Salvation is not a "get out of jail free card".

2. God's laws for society, needed to protect society and maintain order, require clear laws, clear punishment, and does not allow revoking the punishment just because the guilty party is sorry, or has changed, or did some good things after they got caught. Nowhere in Christ's teachings in the New Testament does he suggest that even the harsh parts of civil law should be abandoned, He only focused on the personal responsibilities of the individual. Different area of responsibility. Indeed, He clearly stated that civil law was to be respected and obeyed.

3. God does command us to be personally forgiving, which is a good thing, but that does not negate the need and responsibility to shape and enforce a civil society. Being forgiving and compassionate, in circumstances where that compassion places innocent people in jeopardy is hardly compassionate, definitely undermines the civil society that God obviously prefers, and makes a mockery of justice, which God also values highly.

God does say that he is the only one that can judge a man's soul. But he clearly gave responsibility for judging a man's actions to courts, governments, and the law.

He also told US to be "gentle as doves, and wise as serpents". Gentle alone is not enough to survive in the world.

 

1I was Seargent of the Guard at Headquarters Battalion, 1st Marine Division, and had just toured our area when I heard the news on the radio. I had 6 more hours till my relief, and lemme tell you it was a looooooong 6 hours.

 

@GT...thanks for taking the time to explain your thinking. That passage is awesome and given me a lot of food for thought I shocked myself with a couple of other thoughts late last night around this subject, but I won't go down that road here just now. Thanks once again...I really appreciate it

 

Well, to avoid shocks, stay away from the wall outlets and power cords.

Now you've got me curious about what shocked you.

 

LOL.....ok...just for you Gary

Well, I got thinking about Iraq and how I support the Western troops and the various countries' decision to assist with securing freedom in the East. So, inevitably a result of that is the troops shoot and kill (let's not get into the debate about who they shoot or are meant to shoot...the fact is people die), and I support this fight for freedom. So why do I feel so different about those on death row? I couldn't figure out why my own opinion on two different types of killing were so hypocritical of each other.

I think it came to me this morning as I was driving to work. Most of us, thankfully, don't know when we are going to die or even if it is imminent...it just happens. But those on death row face years of wondering if it is their last day. And when finally that day comes, they know they are literally walking to their death. Don't know about everyone else, but that would totally scare me (even though I know where I'm going ),and I guess it is there my hearts sits with a ton of compassion for people who are quaking in their boots not knowing what's on the other side.

As the quotation of that pasage you gave, Gary, says......they steal the compassion of the victims' lives they already stole.

 

nice

Did you get to attend any of the events Halo?

 

I'm suprised he (the killer) didn't mention the Twinkies he'd just eaten hours before...