Power Conditioner Need a hardware geek...

Ok I had some strange problems with my computer. I have a really decent surge protector from new egg. My Keyboard went bad, Power supply went bad awhile back, So I simply updated my computer with a whole new system. Few other odd problems.

Now the house I live in for whatever reason seems to eat light bulbs. Not real bad, but more often than it should. Someone suggested a power conditioner for my computer. It will protect against small spikes most surge protectors will miss. I found this but really need your imput thank you.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812120318

 

Sounds like your area has some pretty bad power fluctuations. I'd recommend an actual AVR equipped UPS system, as opposed to just a surge protector.

A UPS - Uninterruptible Power Supply - has a battery back-up which will actually keep your computer running for a certain amount of time during a power outage . . . but that's not the important thing.

A UPS with Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR) will in effect "filter" the electricity entering your computer. With its battery and circuitry, the UPS will make up for dips in power, and block dangerous spikes, so your computer will receive constant, steady, "clean" electricity . . . making for longer component life. It kind of acts like a firewall between your computer and the power lines.

Something like this: http://www.directron.com/rs650b.html but I've never used this model - this is just for example.

I have all my computers on a UPS/AVR. They can be had for cheap as long as you don't go for the long battery "run-times". Even a cheaper AVR capable system will keep a single PC on during brief (1 to 2 mins) power outages, such as occur during thunderstorms and such.

One drawback is that eventually the batteries (which are sealed lead-acid, like car batteries) wear out and have to be replaced . . . but most last 3 or 4 years, or sometimes longer.

 

If I am understanding you right. I simply replace the surge protector I am using now with this item??

If someone that knows more than I do could provide a link to something like this at new egg I would appreciate it.

I don't know if there is any real difference in them. Not worried about battery Life. Just trying to protect my computer against Voltage Spikes and Such that I guess surge protectors can not protect me against. I appreciate your help.

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842111031

Here is a fairly inexpensive model made by Tripp Lite . . . there are several kinds on new egg.

I highly recommend using a UPS with AVR over just a surge protector . . . especially since it seems you have some pretty severe power fluctuations. The product you gave the shortcut for seems to be geared toward Audio/Video applications.



Spad

 

Unless I see something from you otherwise, I am gonna go with the very first one you posted.

http://www.directron.com/rs650b.html

Will check back and if this one is not a good idea please let me know. Just a Gut kinda feeling I am going with. Will put in the order monday for it. I thank you very much for your help. Have a nice day.

 

That UPS only does the same thing that a power strip protector does. Its protection circuit is the same thing found in power strips - just smaller.

Have any doubts? Read the manufacturer specs.

Now lets deal with the problem rather than cure symptoms. Your post implies you have voltage problems. Voltages well below what any surge protector will see. And voltages so high (at least in some places) as to also cause light bulb failure. From hear on, we are curing a problem that could also be (based upon the little so far posted) a serious human safety issue.

First some questions. Do you see light bulb intensity vary especially when major appliances (washing machine, refrigerator, etc) power on or off?

Second, have you inspected your household earth ground? This is essential for a long list of reasons. Too many homeowners assume if the lights work, then earth ground is OK. Also naive are laymen who use that three light tester - then assume that reports something good.

Only way to answer the second question is visual inspection. For example, from the breaker box is a quarter inch bare copper wire that must go outside to an earth ground rod. One home that was missing that ground rod even exploded when the home use a gas meter to connect to earth. Did I get your attention? Follow that earth ground wire. Does it make a solid connection to an earth ground rod outside?

Another ground wire must connect the breaker box to cold water pipes where those pipes enter the building. Again, essential for human safety and, to a lesser extent, important for computer protection.

Your AC power is 120 volts. If AC power is 126 volts (perfectly ideal for all electronics appliances), then light bulbs burn out twice as fast. If voltage is 135 volts, then light bulbs burn out 4 times faster.

Meanwhile, the UPS would ignore all those voltages - connect the computer unimpeded and directly to AC mains. Neither the UPS nor surge protector will do anything. Those voltage variations are so small as to be ignored by the UPS or protector.

Well, every question must be answered. If you cannot answer it, we can add more information to provide those answers.

Moving on to the computer. A power supply's job is to make things on AC mains completely irrelevant to computer hardware. Yes, if it is a brand name machine. But clone builders typically have no electrical knowledge. Buy supplies based only on price and watts. Supplies that are often missing essential functions to decrease the price AND increase the profit margin. Where did that power supply come from? What is it?

If not yet obvious, I will probably be the best technically informed reply you will receive. Yes, I am not kidding about a missing earth ground contributing to a gas line explosion - and other human safety issues that might exist. Do they? We will not know until you first provide those additional facts - answer every question.

What do we know from information you first posted? That UPS will do the same nothing that a power strip protector does. Both contain the same circuits. But UPS circuits are even smaller - even less effective.

 

The only thing is the light bulb issue.Asked around town and a couple other people said the same thing. Just seems like there home goes through Light bulbs. Not real bad. Maybe replace one every 6 months or less. Did swap them out with the Long life light bulbs. You know the ones that look like a circle florescent light bulb.

That helped. Never seen one Blow out or Get real bright or dim. Just seems like they wear out. I will say I am thankful my power supply went out. Everything else works fine and installed in my new setup. I replaced the power supply once, after the second time it went out I bought a new barebones setup and thats what I am using now.

I know very little about electricity and Computers. I have a decent surge protector that could be the issue. Just with the light bulbs going seems like I am getting voltage spikes or dips and my surge protector is missing it.

Someone mentioned the power conditioner. Would help keep a steady clean supply of electricity to my computer. My new set up is only a Week Old tops so I am just trying to figure out how to best protect it. Thats why I am here. Appreciate the imput keep it coming. Wont make a final choice til monday.

This may be a silly queston. Is there software that would monitor my computer, maybe offer a report and tell of any voltage spikes or dips??

 

Posted previously were numbers. To grasp what is posted, what does 126 and 135 volts do to bulbs? Are bulbs brighter? Yes. But not enough change that you would notice. Meanwhile, bulbs fail how many times faster? 200%. 400%. Again, if you have not grasped the significance of those numbers, then reread the paragraph. You need those numbers to understand the next paragraph.

A voltage increase that tiny causes incandescent light bulbs to burn out how much faster? Now. How many more volts are required before a line conditioner or surge protector does anything? Read numbers from its box. Does 330 volts sound familiar? Yes, a line conditioner or surge protector completely ignores 126 or 135 volts. Acts as if the conditioner does not even exist until 120 VAC rises above 300 volts. Nobody need know anything about electricity to understand the significance of what was posted.

Where did the guy who recommended a line conditioner provide any numbers? With numbers, a subjective post is exposed. A line conditioner was recommended because that is the latest popular myth promoted without any electrical knowledge.

"One home that was missing that ground rod even exploded when the home use a gas meter to connect to earth." You were not in the basement hours ago tracing that quarter inch bare copper wire? At what point are you concerned for your family's health? Your previous post implied you may have the same danger. Instead you feigned electrical ignorance. Even a sixth grader can follow that wire like a kite string. You need zero knowledge to follow those directions. That important because the consequences, although rare, are also extreme. Yes, blunt because tracing that bare copper wire is that important and oh so easy.

Software to monitor DC voltages does nothing for AC voltage. Again, from the previous post, "A power supply's job is to make things on AC mains completely irrelevant to computer hardware." Power supply (even a crappy one) guarantees that monitoring software will see nothing on AC mains.

If AC mains voltage drops more than 5%, then appliances with AC motors are at risk. But computer power supplies must work perfectly normal when voltages change even 15% and 25%. See those numbers? A computer's supply must do everything the line conditioner might do - and more. That is the supply's function. To clean AC power that even the line conditioner cannot fix. (BTW, if it is not yet obvious, only the informed will also provide numbers.)

Some may also recommend a UPS. A typical 120 volt UPS can output two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. And an ideal voltage to any computer. It is a computer grade UPS because computers are so robust as to make 'dirty' UPS electricity irrelevant. Electricity so 'dirty' as to be harmful to some small electric motors and power strip protectors. But perfectly fine to computers.

The numbers say "what a line conditioner might accomplish" is already solved inside every computer power supply.

Also posted, "But clone builders typically have no electrical knowledge. Buy supplies based only on price and watts. Supplies that are often missing essential functions to decrease the price AND increase the profit margin." These people also tend to recommend line conditioners and surge protectors. Or recommend a $100 UPS to fix a problem created because they saved $20 on a power supply.

Now, "One home that was missing that ground rod even exploded when the home use a gas meter to connect to earth." At what point does that sentence mean anything? You have a few things to do immediately - or get 14 year old to trace those wires. It is not something to put on a 'to do' list. The consequences (although rare) may be that catastrophic.

The sentence ended in a question mark because you must not ignore it. "Do you see light bulb intensity vary especially when major appliances (washing machine, refrigerator, etc) power on or off?" Asked again because it was important. So important to be asked again. Please. Every sentence with a question mark requires an answer if you have any respect for your help.

 

Westom, Im not sure of your of your advise, Im sure they can find the ground, she said the bulbs did not seem to dim or get brighter, I think you are just trying to show your knowldege, which is fine, but you want her to go do work to keep her house from exploding, keep it helpful. ed

 

I do thank you for your imput. Right now I am just trying to protect my new computer. Got Wayyy to much invested to loose another system because of what I THINK may be voltage issues.

If my house does go boom, Well the computer will be the least of my worries. :-D

I am gonna go with my gut and try that first link posted by Spad. Figure 80 bucks my save me Lots of cash in replacement costs.

But in around about way you may of helped a bit more. Think I am gonna call my insurance guy, see if I can get a special rider on just my computer. See how that goes. I rent my home and have renters insurance. Time to talk to the insurance guy. Thank You all so very much for you hep and your imput. Have a very nice day.

 

I have no interest wasting my time in such endeavors. Posted symptoms imply an unlikely but dangerous grounding problem. You are confusing symptoms of an open neutral or a loose wire with something different.

In one situation, the building owner was somehow convinced that wires connecting a breaker box to water pipes (and other bonds) were dangerous. So he cut them all out. I was called when no one could understand why new computers acted so strangely. Why would removed grounds cause computer strangeness? Now you understand why that simple earth ground wire inspection is so strongly encouraged.

Anyone who can follow a kite string can perform that critical ‘bare copper wire’ inspection. If solutions are desired, then that inspection is performed. The resulting discovery reported here so that a useful reply might follow.

 

Nothing on the power cord will provide a solution. All computers contain robust protection - internally. Of course, that means your computer assembler had enough electrical knowledge to buy a power supply containing functions that are routine in every Dell and HP machine. Many clone computers do not.

A rare voltage anomaly that may create computer damage requires a simple solution in the breaker box (and of course that earth ground wire that must be inspected). Since you are a renter, many jurisdictions may require a licensed electrician to install it. Any potentially destructive voltages must be solved there.

But voltages you are apparently worried about are not problematic if your computer's power supply met standards that existed even 40 years ago. Anything a plug-in surge protector or line conditioner might do must already be inside the computer.

Meanwhile, if computer 'strangeness' is due to a missing or disconnected 'bare copper' earth ground, then the landlord is obligated by law to have it fixed immediately. That failure would be a code violation, a potentially serious human safety threat, as well as a reason for computer problems. Simple observations (detailed previously) can result in simple solutions. And requires zero electrical knowledge. Expertise provided when you report what was observed.

 

Now westom that info Did help. Never thought about the motherboard and stuff should have the proper protection against that kinda spike and voltage drop issue.

Something I for sure I find useful. In the end I am forsure gonna order that one spad linked me to. That will be dealt with monday. For just a shade of 70 bucks why not.

 

That $70 device does not even claim to do what you want. Did you view its spec numbers? Protection about as close to zero as it could get without being zero. Because it is near zero, then others assume it is massive protection - and recommend it. Your only reply that can be honest also provides numbers. See those Tripplite numbers? Near zero protection.

Again, voltage drop does not cause damage. Low voltage is harmful to AC electric motors – not to electronics. That was made repeatedly obvious in previous posts. Why are you still worrying about voltage dip - that cause no electronics damage even 70 years ago - even before TVs existed?

That 120 volt battery backup output is typically two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. See those numbers? When a UPS is in battery backup mode, that electricity can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. But perfectly ideal for computers. Why? Because even the IBM PC was required to contain best power conditioning. Any conditioning that a less than $500 UPS might accomplish routinely exists in PCs - even the original IBM PC.

You now say you want to protect your computer. Then why connect it to a UPS that outputs some of the 'dirtiest' electricity when in battery backup mode? But again, if a Tripplite protects your computer, then post the number that says so. What does this engineer note? Tripplite spec numbers claim near zero protection. To make it any smaller, it would be zero protection. Are you seeing these numbers? Did you see what spikes your computer with up to 270 volts?

If you need computer protection, then many other 'less robust' appliances are also at risk. Do what engineers have been doing for over 100 years. Waste no money on things that plug-in to the wall. Install one 'whole house' protector in the breaker box. A Cutler-Hammer solution costs less than $50 in Lowes. A list of other responsible companies is long - and do not include Tripplite. An effective protector costs less than $1 per protected appliance. That solution (that has been routine for over 100 years) means even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. No damage even to the protector.

Or spend $60 for a Tripplite device that does not even claim to protect that one thing connected to it. And makes no claim for lightning protection for additional engineering reasons.

This solution is completely different from what was asked previously. Even that UPS does not claim to solve what would explain computer 'strangeness'.

This is about computer hardware protection. That other post is about computer strangeness and about symptoms posted earlier. Which problem are you trying to solve?

 

Not correct. A power strip does nothing to prevent damage from dips in power . . . an AVR equipped UPS does. Nor do I agree at all with your statement that the “protection circuits” are even smaller . . . depending on the type of UPS the joule rating can be as high or higher then a regular surge protector.

I dispute your contention that dips in power do not damage electronic components . . . I think you would be hard pressed to find a Tech who thinks turning your computer off and on rapidly over time is a good idea.

I also dispute your statement that a UPS delivers "dirty" power while in battery back-up mode . . . explain what you mean.

The OPs original post mentioned power surges and dips, and a desire to protect their computer components from such. Most people have no control over the quality of power supplied to them in many parts of the world, and in this country as well. If the OP suspects there is a wiring problem with their home, then by all means it should be checked by a representative professional from the company that supplies the power . . . but the post did not indicate the problem was that severe . . . more of an irritant then anything. The shortcut posted by the OP was to a device that was meant for an audio-orientated application, and would do little to help regulate what sounds like frequent dips and spikes in their local power supply. An uninterruptible power supply with automatic voltage regulation would go far in addressing the problem.

 

One need not read beyond that. Anyone with minimal design knowledge knows that power dips are not harmful to electronics. Whereas power dips below 5% can be harmful to electric motors, all electronics work just fine even when voltage dips to 20%. If voltage dips lower, the electronics says, "Oh, power is being turned off". Then a 'normal power off’ circuit takes over.

Where are all those destroyed electric motors because voltage dropped that low? Where is that UPS for every electric motor that *can* be damaged by low voltage?

International design standards from even 40 years ago have this phrase in the low voltage area: "No Damage Region". Why? Even that long ago, electronics damaged by voltage dips violated international design standards.

Spad - if you know voltage dips are destructive, then you can post the damaged component. And post component manufacturer specs that define damage from that low voltage. You cannot do either. Your post says you do not read datasheets. Prove me wrong. What exactly is damaged by low voltage AND why - with electrical numbers. You made the claim. A claim without supporting facts is akin to lying. Post those specification numbers. Or admit you are only posting what other told you to believe.

 

I’m not sure what it is you are looking for or trying to prove, nor do I really care. Argumentum ex silentio . . . How about you post computer component manufacturer specs that say dips in a power supply are all right and not to be worried about or guarded against? The OP expressed a problem that I am familiar with (fluctuating power) and I presented as an option what worked for me in a like situation. Period.

Before I used a UPS system I had hard-drive crashes, data corruption, and power supplies burn out . . . numerous component problems with the one computer. The neighborhood I lived in was subject to some pretty bad dips and spikes in power, and I was using a standard suppressor strip at the time. I did some research, and decided to get a UPS with the automatic voltage regulation to perhaps shield my system from the stress of a power dip. I’ve never looked back, and can say from experience that I have suffered far fewer computer problems in the last 9 years with a UPS then in the prior 3 years without one . . . and I went from caring for one system to four in my house at one time. My system fans even seem to enjoy a longer life.

My UPS doesn’t have a long run time with the equipment I have attached to it, but it is capable of keeping my critical systems running during brief power outages (under 5 mins) such as occur frequently during lightning storms . . . my computer chugs right along, unaffected by the status of the line power.

Can I prove that my hard drive and power supply problems were caused by dips in the power? No. Can I prove that the reduction in such problems are the result of AVR? No . . . but anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that the absence of such power fluctuations sure hasn’t hurt anything.

I don’t know what kind of electronics you are used to working with . . . and no, I am not an engineer . . . but I kind of think that electric motors, by and large, are better able to take power fluctuations over time then, lets say, a computer hard drive or a lower end computer power supply. Electric motors, by and large, are pretty robust devices and do not, by and large, contain sensitive electronic components . . . but I digress.

The idea that constant, steady power delivered to a complicated electronic device like a modern computer is better then a fluctuating, unpredictable supply just seems logical to me . . . and in my personal experience, and in my own opinion, it has a marked effect on the longevity of components, data preservation, and over-all computer performance.

No one has told me what to believe about the effectiveness of a UPS or the danger or lack thereof of frequent dips in power supply. I post what I have found to be true in my own experience, and offer it as such. I am not prone to exaggeration or outright lies, and I resent the implication that I am.

 

Hi All,

Just a thought: PSUs are designed to operate from 90Vac to 150Vac. How's that for fluctuation?

Jim

 

Conclusions from anecdotal evidence are called junk science. Observation without the always required underlying knowledge is necessary to have a fact. Everyone is taught this in junior high science.

You cannot prove anything. No numbers. But you post speculation as if it was knowledge. Since voltage dips cause no damage and since you were having failures, then the smarter solution is to find and fix the problem. Because so many only understand junk science reasoning, the market is full of power supplies missing functions required even 40 years ago. First the inferior supply is purchased maybe for a $20 savings. Then a $100 UPS is purchased to fix that defective supply. That explains your observations.

See numbers from jlphlp? Numbers always required for knowledge. More numbers. If voltage is sagging that much, than your incandescent bulbs are dimming to less than 40%. IOW you have a serious human safety problem. So you ignore the threat; instead recommend a UPS? Then you are also suffering damage to electric motors. Numbers ... and more numbers. Or you don't have voltage dips. Your voltage dips were only speculation promoted by others who were also told to buy a UPS on wild speculation. Bottom line: that UPS recommendation is based in myth and irresponsible reasoning.

Voltage dips do not cause hardware damage. That claim is routine when junk science is promoted. If voltage is too low, electronics does a normal power off. Knowledge from an international standard that even existed 40 years ago. To have a valid conclusion, first learn basic electrical concepts.

You did not list components damaged by low voltage. Why? No such components exist. You saw failure. Then assumed a voltage dip must exist. What component is damaged by low voltage? You listed them all. None.

A warning to others who would otherwise believe that junk science myth. UPS does not provide hardware protection. UPS's only function - to protect data from power loss. Effective solutions that protect hardware are located elsewhere. First learn the technology and numbers before making any conclusions. Anecdotal evidence can only create speculation. Any conclusion based in anecdotal observation is classic junk science.