Why isn't there a new bigger form factor for Mobos

What with the sheer size of graphics cards these days and SLI being popular why hasn;t somebody came out with a bigger form factor? If I want to run SLI in my Machine it removes any chance of using the PCI slots. a bigger form factor with more room should sort this.


Or Failing that why not split GPU's have a single width card then maybe put the rest of it in a drive bay and have it connected to it. I love the Idea of SLI but it pisses me off the amount of space it takes up.

 

I have an Asus Rampage Mobo and it supports 3 way Sli of even the biggest cards, i have 3 Nvidia 400 series (they don't get any bigger ) plus a Coolmaster V8 cpu cooler and everything fits in there.
The only thing you need is a large case.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/933/1/

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_geforce_gtx_480_us.html

http://www.coolermaster.com/product.php?product_id=5279

 

There are big boards. You just need to look for them. Full ATX will work for many, but if not, look for Extended or EATX boards - but expect to spend big bucks for them, as seen with this EVGA. But then of course, you need a full size tower case that supports EATX boards too.

Physics - or specifically, heat. Understand that today's GPUs are generally more powerful than today's CPUs. The Intel Core i7, for example, has 731 million transistors in its core, and the NVIDIA GT200 has 1.4 billion! With nearly twice as many transistors, the GPU needs serious cooling, and that takes up a lot of space.

 

My i7 runs at 43C under full load folding but i am using a Coolmaster V8 on it.
The GPU is GTX480 and under load is constant at 90C, i can bring it down about 10C by putting the fans on 100% but it's like having a jet plane in the house.

 

Wow... nice board! Are there nice boards (EATX) that DON'T have onboard audio, though?

 

Don't know. Perhaps some true "server" boards, but I don't see that as a problem. For one, the better boards have excellent on-board sound. Two, all boards allow you to disable on-board audio and add a card. And three, as far as on-board devices go, audio does not take up much space.

 

Jeez man, $130 bucks more than my EVGA E758-A1 3-Way SLI just for a Physics card, as the rest of the specs are about the same. I guess if you need it you pay.

 

If I need it, I can justify paying for it. But need and want are two different things. And many get it for bragging rights alone. The fact of the matter is, NOBODY needs a 3-way graphics solution! And no one needs two graphics cards, unless they must support more than 2 monitors in their quest to put food on the table or a roof over their heads. And in that case, there are plenty of $50 graphics cards out there that work just fine for that. And there are many motherboards for less than $100 that would support those two cards as well - without loading it up 24Gb of RAM. :wave

 

Hehehe, point well taken! However, I do need it for my folding@home endeavors as that's a penchant of mine. Mind you, I'm pretty tame compared to some folks who have 5 i7's in their farms!:eek

If you continue in that way, most folks don't need a duo/quad or even an i7 to do e-mail, watch movies and play solitaire. Overkill man! If they use more than%5 of CPU at any given time, I'd be surprised. The uber gamers would disagree with you on their need of multi-GPU's too.:wave

 

Yeah right! Because everyone knows that f@h requires tremendous amounts of graphics horsepower that it just won't work with a single card, or Heaven forbid, on-board!

The fact of the matter is, you could crunch more for less money with 2 entry-level motherboards, 2 - 3 Gb of basic RAM and AMD quads than you could with one monster board, an i7 and lots of high end RAM.

Years ago when SETI was very popular, before BOINC, I had up to 8 486s cranking out the BTUs 24/7. Even had an extra AC in the window because the house AC couldn't keep that room cool.

As far as gamers, I refer back to my earlier statement - if they need to play games to put food on the table, or a roof over their heads, then they need it.

 

I'm actually finding that out along with others that CPU folding seems the way to go ATM for power/pts. It's obviously quite too late for this machine but it's not going anywhere anytime soon either. I am enjoying this mobo for OC'ing if nothing else. :cool Oh, I've reused my GTX260 and my PSU from my old X2 machine so it is a tad less pricey. I was going to go after the nVidia4xx GPU's but they don't give much more than I have.

I've actually been thinking of getting a Phenom II Black 1090T 6X CPU, it has an unlocked multiplier!:cool If I ever do get that then that's it for 5 years man! Hopefully.:-D

Ya, you know I agree with you between needs and wants, that's such a simple line to draw.

 

Not if you want it really really bad! Then in that case, it is usually a simple line to cross, assuming the money is just burning a hole in your pocket.

 

Nope man, I've been really poor some 40 years ago, had a room for $12 a week making $50, bed, bureau and closet with weird folks around. Communal stove and bathroom. My fridge in the winter was putting my stuff between the windows so that they didn't freeze outright nor putrefy.

I can tell the difference and I ain't going back to that if I can help it!

 

Bigger and hotter? That is not the normal trend. CPUs are smaller yet getting more powerful, generate LESS heat, and consume less power than CPUs of yesterday. In the old days, there was no such thing as sound or network adapters on motherboards and today, they are standard. Even microATX and ITX boards sport them, as well as very capable graphics solutions, multiple USB ports, eSATA and several internal SATA ports, card readers and more. Motherboards and PSUs are getting "greener" all the time.

"High-end" graphics cards are the culprits here and the only component I can think of that is bucking the smaller and cooler trend - and that is really being driven by the small, almost niche market of serious gamers. For example, with the introduction of the i3, i5, i7 CPUs, Intel has really bumped the ante with on-board graphics solutions as these processors, with a compatible board, are fully capable of supporting all but the most serious games and are perfect for those who surf the net, do email, pay bills, create work or school papers and presentations and they have proved to be most excellent in home theater PCs.

There are plenty of standard size graphics cards that are very capable of meeting most people's, including gamers, needs. If you want (or just gotta have) a monster card, then you need a full ATX motherboard and fat case to support it.

As far as splitting up the motherboard, I don't see it happening and not sure I would want it. By far the greatest thing that ever happened for consumers in general, and home builders in particular is the ATX Form Factor standard. It allows users to put any ATX motherboard and any ATX power supply into any ATX case with the full confidence all the screws, ports, slots, voltages and connectors will match up. It allows us to select from 1000s of add in cards and know they will fit and be properly powered (assuming, of course, the PSU has enough horsepower).

Without the ATX Form Factor standard, consumers would be forced to pay higher prices for proprietary computers, just as we have to do now with notebooks. Note there is virtually no support for building your own notebook and that is because there is no industry standard for shapes, sizes, connectors, voltages, etc.

Another problem with putting all these on separate cards is distance. There's a reason the chipset, RAM, graphics solution (whether card or on-board) are all clustered so close - it takes time for data to travel the gaps. And with bus and clock speeds getting faster and faster, the time it takes for data to travel between the devices affect latencies and when the CPU is waiting for the data to get here, that is not good. Also, when you have connectors, you (and the designers/engineers) have to worry about resistance and capacitance through the connectors that would not be there in straight PCB traces.

Nope, I am not for splitting it up. It would be a nightmare getting all the makers to agree to a standard. Yor years, Dell would have their standard, HP theirs. ASUS would have their standard and Gigabyte theirs. And none would be compatible with the other.

What needs to happen is the graphics solution makers need to figure out how to keep temps down so the cards don't need massive cooling solutions. As it is, however, I like the double width cards as they do a decent job of keeping the GPU's heat out of the case.

 

Well, concerning OEM heatsink fans, in general, they are pretty good. It is important to note that CPUs come in 2 versions, OEM and Retail, and there are 2 differences between them. (1) Retails comes with an Intel or AMD supplied heatsink fan (HSF) assembly and OEMs do not, and (2) retails are warrantied for 3 years and OEMs for 1 year.

This is significant because for both Intel and AMD retail versions that come with HSF assemblies, the warranty is void if you use any cooling solution besides the one provided! Since both AMD and Intel warranty their boxed retail version CPUs for three years, and since replacing them at their cost is not something they want to do, both make excellent cooling solutions both in terms of cooling abilities, but also in noise levels.

Yes, some 3rd party coolers do provide better cooling, and some are virtually silent too. But no 3rd party cooler maker will pay to replace the CPU if the fan fails. And Intel or AMD can't be held responsible if the 3rd party fan fails either. So it is important that readers understand what's at risk if they decide to use a 3rd party cooler on a retail CPU.

That said, you are absolutely correct that much depends on the case. If the hot air is not extracted, even the best HSF simply blows the hot air around. IMO the choice in cases is just as important as the choice in PSUs and together, they make up the foundation of a computer system that will last for years.

 

I am still baffled by the need for bigger mobos?

I have an Asus Rampage 11 Extreme and OK it is not cheap but it will take 3 Gtx 400 series cards in Sli (i have tried it) and i have a Cool-master V8 in there as well plus a sound card so why the need for bigger format Mobos?

I understand that my i7 in no longer under warranty but to be honest how will they know i have the V8 on there if i just take the CPU back?

 

I think the need is for better homework before purchase rather than bigger motherboards. The problem I see is not in graphics cards being double wide, but that some graphics card are very long, meaning they protrude deep into the computer and interfere with cabling, or oversized CPU fans. People need to do their homework and check dimensions first. I agree with you, a full size ATX board should be plenty big enough for the vast majority of users.

"To be honest"? That's a bit ironic, isn't it? Is it being honest if you omit telling them you did not use the supplied HSF? What are you going to say then if they come back and ask you? Are you then going to lie about it? Is a "lie of omission" okay? Is that deceit being honest?

Sure, you could probably get away with it, but that does not make it right. Below is my canned text on CPU Warranties. Note the part about abnormal voltages and usage not in accordance with instructions. That means if you fry the CPU due to overclocking, it is not covered either. But are you going to pretend you did not overclock?

***

It should be noted that using a 3rd party cooler on retail (not OEM) versions of Intel and AMD CPUs that come with heat sink fan assemblies voids the warranty!!! And damage attributed to overclocking is not covered under any CPU, motherboard, or cooler warranty either, regardless any overclocking features or software provided by motherboard makers. Certainly, this is not a concern for some enthusiasts. But it is a concern for many others, and everyone should be aware of it.

Intel CPU Warranty Information (my bold added)

Intel warrants the Product (defined as the boxed Intel® processor and the accompanying thermal solution)... ... if the Product is properly used and installed, for a period of three (3) years. This Limited Warranty does NOT cover:

• damage to the Product due to external causes, including accident, problems with electrical power, abnormal electrical, mechanical or environmental conditions, usage not in accordance with product instructions, misuse, neglect, alteration, repair, improper installation, or improper testing; OR
• any Product which has been modified or operated outside of Intel's publicly available specifications​

AMD CPU Warranty Information (their bold)

AMD is more straightforward on their page where it says the following concerning their retail, Processor In A Box (PIB), versions of their CPUs:

This Limited Warranty shall be null and void if the AMD microprocessor which is the subject of this Limited Warranty is used with any heatsink/fan other than the one provided herewith.

This limited warranty does not cover damages due to external causes, including improper use, problems with electrical power, accident, neglect, alteration, repair, improper installation, or improper testing.
​

The good news is since both AMD and Intel warranty their boxed CPUs for three years, and since replacing them at their cost is not something they want to do, both make excellent cooling solutions both in terms of cooling abilities, but also in noise levels.​

 

Ya got me there Bill:-o

 

Well, my intent was not to get "you" personally, so please don't feel it was. By "you" I meant anyone listening.

 

No problems Bill i took it in good heart.

The only restriction i have with my PC is that if i want to put more GPUs in i have to take out the corresponding number of HDDs because the cards are a bit long.

 

Thanks! If not for your choice of words...!

Right! And so in that situation, you would need a deeper case, one that moves the drive cages further away from the back of the case.

 

Well its grey area over here so I'm sure the law varies from place to place but 'intended purpose' is a legal term in UK law which means the obvious,if it came down to a court of law could AMD claim they did everything in their power to stop their CPU's being overclocked? Of course not When developing the CPU's do AMD overclock them to?This would be evidence that AMD knew the intended purpose of the CPU's was to be overclocked,could they state categorically that they did not design the CPU's to be overclocked?

They design them to be over clocked and through third parties use this as a selling point,they could VERY easily be locked down so they can't be overclocked and when a motherboard manufacturer is making a new overclocking motherboard it's AMD they are on the phone to getting advice on how to make it work,that's how AMD are the company they are today,through enthusiasts overclocking their products,they need to look after us.

I guess its all legal mumbo jumbo and I'm not really sure,I've never heard of anyone been asked if they overclocked a CPU over the phone,they are always replaced without question.

I guess you could analogise it to a gun,if a gun manufacturer made a gun incredibly easy to modify into an automatic and sold lots of them because of this and they know and choose not to do anything because they are making so much money selling them they then cannot claim ignorance,I believe there have been cases like that in the US.

So is legal,I don't know,is it right they replace your CPU without question?I believe so.

EDIT Maybe a good idea for a separate thread discussion?

 

No it's not. Read the warranty that came with your CPU. As I said, if you buy a Zalman cooler and the fan fails and the CPU burns up because of it, Zalman is not going to pay for it. Just as Zalman is not going to pay to replace the motherboard if the socket warps due to excessive heat.

It would be totally different if Intel or AMD did not supply the cooling solution. But they do. And it might be different if you did not have a choice. But you do. You can buy the OEM version.

As for overclocking, you are wrong again. If you buy a new car, go to your local car parts store and buy a new exhaust system to add a few more horsepower, then take the car to a race track and blow up the engine, do you think the car maker is going to replace your engine under warranty? Of course not. And neither will the maker of the 3rd party exhaust system. But to your analogy, you think the "right" thing is the car maker pay for a new engine while you "pretend" you did not abuse the old one. That's clearly wrong. ASUS and Gigabyte design overclocking features in their boards, but they are not going to pay for replacements if the CPU fries, or if you damage the board due to poor heat control.

And just because you can get away with something, does not make it right. You can run a stop sign and probably get away with that too, but that does not make it right.

And for the record, here's the UK version of their warranty - note it says the same thing.

And for AMD - when looking at the UK site when I click on the Warranty link, it takes me right back to the same warranty page for AMD as above - so it too says the same thing.

No they don't! The designers design them to meet designed specs. Marketing weenies dummy down the specs so users can feel good about moving them up again.

Now I've been around and around with this too many times - that's why I did the research myself, and created a canned text with links to the "official" facts to substantiate what I say. If you want to continue with an opposing view, come back with links to official Intel or AMD sites that support your view - links that show that using alternative cooling solutions and using other than published voltages will not void the warranties. Otherwise, your opinion about right and wrong don't matter (neither do mine, for that matter). I go by the documented facts and I will ensure readers are aware of them.