WhyLinuxIsBetter.net

Okay, so it had been awhile since I had used Linux (ie Slackware 9 and Red Hat 7) when I decided to give Ubuntu a whirl (as part of implementing a Squid proxy server - hats off to TimW). I liked Linux, but I totally understood how it was impractical to the average user or in a business setting. I installed Ubuntu on an old Pentium 3 733MHz box with 256MB of RAM, and ALL my reservations about Linux were completely blown away!

This link explains why. If you're just building a new system, or looking to change operating systems. CHECK OUT THIS LINK!!!!

 

Quite informative, good site.

 

Thanks for the link, I've wondered about where to the get the various software stuff that is peculiar to any OS. Just for the heck of it, I'm downloading Knoppex 5.0, even though I already have a CD of it (I think). Want to compare what I bought for $10 and the free version, I have several friends who might be interested in it. I've always heard that Linux is premo for servers and file sharing, I wonder if it could run my Wildcat 4.0 BBS, which is a DOS program that barely runs on Win98SE. Since I've been running this board for 12 years or so I don't really want to leave it behind and run something else.

 

Hey you've done it once again Mada great link, it just maybe the one that lets me make the "Plunge" Thanks

 

Hey, if you're interested, Ubuntu comes in LiveCD form, meaning you can boot from the CD and use the OS without installing anything. Its great for getting a feel for the OS without the hassle of backing up data, formatting, and all that fun stuff.

An Tim, NO SWEAT BUDDY!!!!

Seriously, I LOVE THIS. Despite all the reviews I've read, working with Squid has been a breeze! (Once I figured out how to properly install software - a c++ compiler and the make command were required, but that was my own inabilites with the OS)

 

Yea thanks I downloaded Knoppix Live CD and will give the little penguin a try
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2244/businessnewsdx1.png

 

Mada,
in the link it says if you want to try Linux, just download it on a computer that already has Windows. How does that work? I'm sitting in a windows environment, using my Firefox browser, and I download Linux. And then? Where does it go? How do you use it? Despite the well-written site, I have an image of me putting my clone inside of me and expecting us both to function with one body and two minds.
abri

 

Well, typically, the files you download are .ISO files, which is an image of the disk. If this is what you have, you will have to burn it to CD using an app like ImgBurn (Nero is also capable of this), and then boot from that CD. I don't think the file alone will do what you wish.

 

I recently downloaded the ISO file for Ubuntu 6.10, and successfully burned it to a CD using Nero 6. Ubuntu booted from said CD Ok. Large download at 700MB.

I thought I'd play with this OS on an older PC I have and see what I think of it. I've never used Linux before and am curious about it.

 

cool.....thanx for the site mada...i've thought about it for a long time myself simply because of quite a few annoyin things which r actually listed on that site. i'm dl unbuntu right now....see how it works out. i'm in the process of upgrading my laptop too so would b cool to see it work at blazing speeds, lol.

only downside is that it will take awhile with this slow ass internet i'm using at the moment. speakin of which....does anyone know if the links support resume if the download is broken? i'm using the unversity of twente from the netherlands dl section.

 

mmmm....open source software sends a shiver!

Can't this work both ways?...security wise

Have d/l Abuntu Live CD (6.10) to see what all the fuss is about....
May even go triple boot to truely test it! (with vista and XP 64)

Thanks Mada.....your opinions are always taken on board with me!

Regards..

 

This is something I have often wondered as well . . . it makes sense to a layman like me that it would almost have to.

 

It's much harder to install a virus in linux than windows. Basicly to install anything at all in Linux you have to use root privlidges which in most linux distros has a username and password, unlike windows you do not run as root(or admin) as default, so unless you are silly enough to download a virus then install it using your username and password then the virus can't get into the kernel of the O.S and therefore can't cause too much damage, unless your lazy and run as root account full time cause you couldn't be bothered using your password each time you install anything. The good thing about Ubuntu is that by default during setup it doesn't even offer to set up a root account, thus making you use the sudo command & your password to install anything using the command line terminal. Plus at the moment there is still only something like 5% of people using Linux so the A**holes out there still couldn't be stuffed writing viruses for it. YET

 

Most users have no idea that the programs they are installing have malicious code attached......can't see how a password and username can save you from this?

It may be so, that there is not as much motivation to write malicious code for a lesser used OS, however my question is mainly....would it not be easier to write this code on open source software, as the dimwits have all the necessary ingredients for their evil ways?

 

Seen from a slightly more distant point of view ... you cannot develop a good immune system for an emerging system, if it is not constantly tested by new diseases. If computers are an evolving species which humans are creating, then it stands to reason that we will pour ALL of our qualities into them, not just the good ones.

<flicks eyebrows at nightcrawler>

abri

 

@ MA....LMAO (my thoughts entirely)

@ abri.....mmmm, don't need an OS that is constantly tested by new diseases! Not sold on Linux security, thats all abri!

 

An OS that is free, and still only has a 5% market share, worries me a little but i will take the advice given onboard, and test it for myself!

Otherwise anything i say is not valid towards the assessment of good or bad!

 

I have to say that site isn't aimed at geeks. It doesn't purport to be, either.

The whole open source security thing is a bit nebulus. Here's my view.

Closed source software is also constantly being probed and poked and broken. More often than not the people who managed to find exploits in closed source software will NOT release their code, or even say that there is a flaw. They certainly won't tell the developers. Finding security holes in closed source software is pretty hit and miss for the general public.

Open source software means you don't have the choice to hide your code. Any cracker will tell you that the best way to find security holes is by looking at the source (ever wondered why the Windows 2000 source code leak was such a big deal?). That's why people dissassemble and decompile propriatory programs. With open source it's so easy to find security holes that if one exists two parties are BOUND to come across the same bug. And they do it quicker, so patches can be applied as soon as the security hole has been discovered. And if you can't wait for the next binary release you can apply the patch yourself! And, if you knew what you were doing, you could make the patch yourself!

In fact, the majority of security patches for open source software are applied before anyone has worked out how to exploit the hole. With closed source applications you're relying on the limited team of developers to keep on top of the bugs - not to mention that they're the people who wrote it so are proud and won't want to admit a mistake as readily as a truly independant reviewer (not someone contracted out by the software company, because they have bias).

That is a more verbose answer to why open source software can be more secure.

Oh and have you ever wondered about this: What if a compiler was compromised. Say, Visual Studio. For example the way it handles c++ classes wasn't quite up to standard. Or, even worse, the standard was flawed. What happens then? You can't exactly recompile Windows with a new compiler, can you?

 

out of everything i've heard (including the non-geek stuff on that site) this has to be one of the best explanations iv'e heard so far.

 

Thanks, Goldfish, yes this was for the non-technical person.

Trust me, do NOT let market shares speak to the quality of the OS.

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2006/11/08/microsoft_novell_money/
http://www.usd.edu/~bwjames/humor/ms/novel.html

The above links helped me to understand how MS got to be top dog. THEY HAVE NO ETHICS or regard for ANYTHING but their own product. They're smart business people.

Highly recommend that you read up on Ubuntu's concept of software repositores at this link. By default your Synaptic Package Manager (which is roughly equivalent to Add/Remove Programs in Windows) shows ONLY software that is available in the Ubuntu repository, which is KNOWN to be safe, and work for your distro. You can easily configure it to access the universe repository which is all open source software, regardless of distro (although also known to be safe), or the multiverse repository which is open-source and pay for software. They only RECOMMEND getting software this way because it is safe and easy. There is nothing preventing you from going on the web and downloading software to your hearts content, so long as you're willing to sacrifice the security of the repositories. You have the gzip and tar applications!

It is a constant battle to compromise freedom and security, and in my opinion, they've done a far better job than Microsoft ever has.

"He Who Trades Freedom For Security Deserves And Will Receive Neither" ~ Benjamin Franklin

 

I am amazed at you M.A., if one of us posted a reply as you did, we would get a posting from you on that thread, that we were being confrontational. I know it happened to me last week. Mada’s link was a revelation for a lot of us, who have just gone along with the MS status quo, and Linux has come along way, with a lot of people’s hard work.

Firefox, Opera yes and even MS, come to mind when you talk about percentages of market share, all good ideas start at the bottom, or we would still be riding horses and sending letters.

Sarcasm is a unique tool as it cuts quickly and takes a long time to heal, and your post was dripping with it. The shame is that when you post like that many people just say yes “Boss”, and just shut down there thought process. I might be banned or flamed for what I have said, so be it, but the “Freedom” all have talked about has to be constantly fought for and defended and sometimes we have to pay the price.

Nitecrawler’s response was not as sarcastic, but stated most of the intellectual points you brought up which are very valid, as I as well as others (probably Mada himself, though that is for him to say) are willing to give any new system a try, as we should. That is what the process of discovery is all about, experimentation.

That the “Linked site” was one sided, sheesh just look at any site that promotes any software, there all the same, which is why I come to Major Geeks. This site, and the people on it M.A. are a credit to you and the people here that have made it what it is, otherwise it would be just another of the many sites peddling software. However, last time I checked you were not a god, and neither am I (sorry that’s sarcastic I know, see it’s contagious)

Anyway, that is my take on the topic at hand.

 

Have to agree with BC here. People are entitled to their own opinion and should be able to express it. Every time Linux is brought up on M.G's there is always some people here that just want to run it into the ground and MA part owner of the site is usually among them. I wasn't aware that this was a windows only forum. Now MY OPINION is that Linux is still a more secure OS than Windows, yes you can still install viruses but it is next to impossible to get a drive-by virus from visiting web sites and email attachments. There are virus scanners for Linux so you can scan any files you intend to install before doing so(just like you should do with any OS) Never said Linux was imposible to infect just that is harder to infect than windows. If you need proof why have Microsoft designed Windows Vista more along the lines of Unix code more than any other Windows OS

 

I think most people would but it comes down to the $'s

Next is a genuine question for you, not trying to p*** you off, with your experience with Linux did you use any type of virus protection and how many viruses did/have you picked up using Linux.

 

I've used windows xp with no virus scanner installed for a number of years. Occasionally, I would do a online virus scan, and come up with nothing. Its called, safe browsing habits.

 

BTW, yes, I have used: HPUX, Solaris (SunOS), Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and the latest, Fedora core 6 (which is installed on my downstairs computer, for music only).

 

Quote The fool -I've used windows xp with no virus scanner installed for a number of years. Occasionally, I would do a online virus scan, and come up with nothing. Its called, safe browsing habits.

Yeah good for you, you would be in the minority, Take a look at the malware forum here, most of these people DO use protection and still get infected, and im sure they're not all pornsite surfing freaks. Even with your good luck i'm sure you are not suggesting people use windows to surf the net with no virus spyware or firewall protection. Once more I am not saying it is impossible to get a virus using Linux i'm saying it is harder than getting a virus using windows(for most everyday run of the mill computer users)

 

Actually, I didn't state that one should not use any antivirus programs. You stated, how many viruses cropped up on linux, I stated, how many I got using windows. Yes, I'm in the minority. So, are linux users.

 

Fair call

 

Check your PM.

 

As I think your a great guy (yea one with a Attitude) or I won't have posted here and sent you a copy via PM

I could comment on your post, but I think it would just belabour the point, and take away from the debate, suffice to say I think you might have missed some points.

From what I have seen transpire with Linux over the years, it is nothing short of amazing. Linux once a coder's software from UNIX to an OS with a GUI interface, it has as well as old DOS has come along way. I remember people saying that IBM/DOS then MS/DOS being faulty OS’s from the start, but I digress.

My main point and the one that I thanked Mada for, is we should all try and retry software as it evolves, Linux has changed. I for one want to try the OS. Mada's post with the link and the possibility to boot it from CD and not change the OS we are presently using, is a great opportunity to effortlessly do so. I recently switched my main Browser from Firefox to Opera and am still in the learning curve, is it better! I really am not qualified at this stage to say Yes. There are some points that I like, and some I do not, but only time and user experience will tell the whole story. Would I tell someone that their Browser sucks, yea probable I would have twenty years ago, but after years of doing so I have come to realize that I have had to eat too many words. I was fortunate/unfortunate enough to be present at the initial meeting with Gates and IBM in Vancouver B.C. I said to my boss at IBM that we could develop a better OS, than the cr*p that Gates was trying to peddle, and that it would never amount to a hill of beans, still eating “crow” to this day. I hate eating “Crow” to many bones get stuck in my throat.

I Thank-You for your reply M.A., lots would have flamed me, ignored me, or even banned me, you did neither, and for that, alone you have my total respect. “Keep on Trucking” M.A.

 

I think you missed my point.

 

In observing this thread, as in observing most discussions of politics, there seem to be fairly clearly drawn "sides" which people line up on. Linux is worth supporting because it fights MS monopoly politics. Call it what you want to. The day I opened up Internet Explorer to look at it the first time out of curiosity, and it changed all my Netscape icons to IE icons, I knew what I was dealing with. There is a real reason why people hate Microsoft, and it's because they use unfair business practices which go against Everything that free enterprise is supposed to protect. Go Sun!!!

I admire the "attempts" here to keep the discussion on a technical topic, but the very real topic of why people support Linux was never addressed.

abri

 

Oh cripes, here I go, stirring the pot.... here's the point-by-point debate! (Well, MA's points...he's skipped a few on the site for some reason ) Nobody's brought up the fact that he's listed reasons you should stay with Windows either! HE DOES!!!! (AND includes a point I've never heard before! - the book/printing industry?!?!?) Like everyone else, I don't mean to offend, and am trying to use humour! (I do realize it seems like I'm trying to pick on MA - I'm not; he asked for the debate!)

You're right, and the site says so. It's not impossible to get infected, only much harder. If you don't believe that, consider the fact that Ubuntu (which is the distro he writes about primarily) DOES NOT HAVE A ROOT USER. To perform any administrative function, you must either use the command line 'sudo' function or the built in GUI. Either way you must supply a password. Yes, this is susceptible to dictionary attacks, but that is true of any password. How many Windows administrative accounts have you seen that DON'T have even a SIMPLE password? Heh, not to mention that very slick idea of a package manager! DAMN I love that!

I've seen a function like this before. Oh yeah, this is JUST like Windows Vista's UAC function. You know that pesky thing that locks down the machine whenever you try to do anything privledged. Wonder if they thought that one up on their own. Wonder if they thought of NTFS file permissions on their own. Nah, Linux had file permissions from the get go. Wonder if Windows thought up their directory services naming conventions on their own. Netware used the same thing WAY before MS. Hmmmm........ I think I see a trend here....

I've always liked the analogy that Windows is like a hyper kid on a sugar buzz, and Linux is like a kid on morphine. Windows is running around doing a million things like network services, local system services, user services (hence all the processes running the in background).... Linux is just doing enough to keep itself alive. Windows can be easily tripped up by throwing in a wrench that conflicts with anything it is doing. Linux isn't doing that much to begin with, so doesn't crash as often. I don't mean to bash Microsoft, they'd need to have the foresight of a GOD to be able to account for every variable in a working PC system... not to mention in a LAN...not to mention in a Enterprise network...

Again, this is a site for the NON-technical user! You, MA, are a whiz, and probably don't have half the problems with malware, software conflicts and harware incompatibilities that the average user has. You should SEE the crap installed on people's computers when they bring them in for me to fix.

Average User: Ooh! Bonzai Buddy! He's bright and friendly looking! I want him dancing around on my computer!

Technical User: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHGHGHGHH!!!! DIE! DIE! DIE!

You are a self-proclaimed "safe browser". Most everyone else isn't, nor do they even friggen CARE most of the time.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean.

Heh! You're just skimming over these points now, aren't you? Here's what it says:

Nah, you're not a terrorist....more like an operating system addict. Its sad how dependent on Windows Microsoft has made us.

It's TRUE! How often does a product reach "the end of its lifecycle", and screws you over? How many times have you reported a bug, and are told to wait for the patch? How would you begin migrating a company AWAY from Windows?

You've got me on the games here, I think. Its business again, though. Why develop for the minority? That's not where the BIG money is.
Also, its true that not ALL Windows users are pirates, but ALOT are. I'll admit that I'm not innocent, and I know that alot of users here aren't.... how many threads get locked at the slightest hint of piracy? Why is Microsoft escalating their anti-piracy measures with stuff like WGA? SPP?

Is it fair? Yes and no. They have a right to charge for their product, but they don't seem to give a rat's butt about what kind of overhead it adds to an I.T. department. I AM SO SICK OF THAT DAMN ACTIVATION HOTLINE. If someone gets a keygen working, then even NEW licenses can require activation, even if its never been installed by the legitimate owner.

Check out Ubuntu's means of installing software! It's slick! I linked to it in an earlier post.

Yeah, he didn't describe that one very well! (and its kind of a superfluous thing) However, have you tried really screwing around with your Windows desktop? Adding tool bars? Moving them to one side or another? It's buggy as hell, let me tell you! Half the time, the bar doesn't stay there, or the icons mess up. Auto hiding them is a PITA, too!
And what about themes/skinng apps? I've heard so many problems with that I don't even want to head down that road.

How often do you defrag, and do nothing while the app does its work?
If you read this link, Linux has a VERY appealing system for disk I/Os. I don't think this point should be so easily dismissed!

Guess what? It does! However, the implication that Linux doesn't is BS, I have to admit! Its a physical law of the universe that disorder increases over time (hence my signature). Shtuff just naturally breaks down, and gets slower.

Again, you got me here, but again, I gotta say MONEY. Games are flippin HUGE though... it kinda conflicts with a large part of the intentions of Linux. I say let the ones who want to have the biggest and bestest games out there pay through the nose for the app, the hardware and the OS.

Hmmm...Windows media player (default) vs ubuntu's (default) media player... hmmm... Linux DOES pwn Windows here! WMP blows. Even on a clean installation, its buggy as hell. Sorry.
Yeah, there's choices for both, but I think that you're intentionally misunderstanding him, now... you can get other media players but that involves alot of experimentation! The average user sticks to WMP.

Yeah, this is a silly point, but again, for the average user, its the app that comes with the OS. That means Windows Messenger, or if they have some knowlegde of IMing, Windows Live Messenger... what do they do with their contacts on another app? What if by default, your IM client supported multiple protocols? That would make me a happy average user.


I can see why you don't like this site, MA, but I hardly think its fair to call him a liar. If you read carefully, he does cover most of the points you bring up. Again, its for the average user! I think he's done a damn good job of putting it in leyman's terms (You should see the blank faces of any user I try to talk tech to LOL), and overcoming his language barrier! I don't know how he would have put it better without becoming overly technical!

If you're happy with Windows, stick to it! Just don't mock others for wanting to explore alternatives! A closed door policy doesn't help ANYONE.

 

LOL! No, this is good I think! As long as this doesn't degenerate, I think the swapping of ideas here is fantastic!

 

Yes, sorry...you're right... I didn't mean you personally; I did read that you've done some extensive comparitives! I should have said that Microsoft is more like an OS pusher. I was referring to the point that there's so many proprietary technologies, which I feel is not right. I live by the motto that "information wants to be free". Hence why I post here! Try to share what I can. Again, I apologize for that!

 

Thanks, Mada for stepping up to the plate, yours and MA’s technical knowledge is much greater in this area than mine, and it is great to hear both the Pro’s & Cons on any subject. I apologize if my comments heated up the debate (I noticed that very few wanted to post after my initial post to MA’s post).

Just an observation that amazes me is that both Linux and DOS/Windows started from open code, and to compare it to Mac which has always been proprietary evades me. Microsoft’s move with Windows as a totally closed OS caused much consternation when it first arrived. Many of us stuck with DOS and even as in my case, used something like Gem Desktop for a GUI (historic note that GUI was better than Windows for a few years, and I still have it running on my old 386 comp). We all said at the time MS is becoming like Mac, and the pirated release of the Windows ME code was herald at the time as the best of news. I still feel that MS’s policy of a closed OS has hurt both the program and the company. As to MS’s WGA and the impending SSP, I will not go there for my blood pressure is too high already.

Therefore, I for one am looking forward to playing with another OS, but then I have always been a Don Quixote kinda person anyways. (As if, you all did not know that already)

 

Hey up here in the Great White North......heat good , High Blood Pressure bad

 

Hey you know me MA, once you said the magical word "Jackass" my funny bone kick in (Okay Bad Pun)

A Jackass and a chicken are playing in a meadow. The Jackass fall's into a mud hole and is sinking. He calls to the chicken to go and get the farmer to help pull him out to safety.
The chicken runs to the farm but the farmer can't be found. So he drives the farmer's BMW back to the mud hole and ties some rope around the bumper. He then throws the other end of the rope to his friend, the Jackass, and drives the car forward saving him from sinking!

A few days later, the chicken and Jackass were playing in the meadow again and the chicken fell into the mud hole. The chicken yelled to the Jackass to go and get some help from the farmer. The Jackass said, "I think I can stand over the hole!" So he stretched over the width of the hole and said, "Grab for my 'thingy' and pull yourself up." And the chicken did and pulled himself to safety.

The moral of the story: If you're hung like a Jackass, you don't need a BMW to pick up chicks.

Hope that gives you a morning chuckle

 

lmfao...that was so disgusting. but thanx for the laugh. kinda strikes home with me since i'm currently stationed in germany and plan on gettin a 325i when i get back from oif4.