Something has got to give...

Ok...you'll have to help me on this one!!!!

What exactly is wrong with my having "my own" opinion that there is nothing that we humans are going to be able to do to change the course of this planet....Wherever the hell one may think it is heading!!!!????

If you don't believe in god...that's fine!! If you are one who's dreams at night, are about sewing up the ozone layer...then that's fine too!!!! Once again...those are your opinions!!!! I haven't bashed on anyones opinions, or tried to persuade them to change them, and i've only simply stated my opinion...so I was just wondering why you are being so defensive and/or like you don't like me simply because of a debate that I was interested in!!!!????

As I stated way before...I'm not too intelligable as to the reasons behind the WHOLE gas price situation...and that is why I started this thread!! I admit that I don't quite get it all!!!! Maybe, because I spend too much time with my head in a computer case instead of reading books and watching the news...I don't know!!!!

So if i'm taking it all the wrong way...someone please let me know...otherwise ...I guess i'll just ingnore the percieved hostility!!!!

Meanwhile....back at the ranch....

I think it would only be fair to us common folk...if the FTC, or someone of unbiased truth, DID do an investigation so that atleast we would all know the whole truth, and we would be better able to understand situation!!!! Atleast those that are furious...would be furious for the right reasons, and not tried to blame it on something they have no idea about!!

kind of like i've done!!!! *blushing from embarrassment*

Roger

 

There's no hostility. Why would you imagine such a thing?

It's just that, if you are going to have outragious opinions, that's one thing. If you are going to write them down and post them, that's another. You surely can't expect to say what you said without being challenged.

I find it ludicrous to state that we have no control over our environment. Who still drives a Galaxy 500?(to pick one from the air) Who still allows unfettered use of Chlorofluorocarbons? Why are air pollution levels dropping in some places while they are rising in others?
Lakes and rivers are being cleaned, and even species thought extinct are showing up again. Billions of dollars are being spent on alternate fuel sources, with cold nuclear fusion, once a holy grail, now being seen as a genuine possibility by mid century.

If we destroy the planet, it will have been humans that did it. God and nature don't enter into it.

 

Ok...my apologies!!

"CONTROL" is the key word!!!! I'm not saying that we humans should be total gluttons of natural resources, and i'm not saying that that if we all drove electric cars instead of gas cars...that the air wouldn't be cleaner in some areas...or writing on recycled paper (which sucks by the way) isn't slowing down the harvest of trees!!!! I don't argue the fact that we humans can "HELP PRESERVE SOME" of nature TO A CERTAIN EXTENT!!!! However....I strongly believe that we CANNOT CONTROL the outcome of nature and it's natural resources!! Nature has it's own set of checks and balances, and we aren't going to be able to manipulate them very much, compared to the grand scheme of things!!!!

Not that anyone would know the answer to this, but...if nature was on a track that was set to end mankind/civilization (whatever you want to call it) in, say 100 years...then that is the course that nature is going to take...you aren't going to make TOOOO much of a difference!!!!

Yeah...the air might be getting cleaner in boston...but california is slipping off into the ocean!! They might be replenishing ALOT of forest...but there are wildfires burning out of control in colorado...etc., etc., etc.!!!!!

IMO...you've got to sacrifice to gain!!!! And personally...i'm just a little leary of the fact that if they don't do what they have to do, suck some oil out of the ground where they know there is an abundance of supply, or if they don't allow so and so to build that new refinery somewhere.....then it is going to lead to what I said before...

And I quote...

Ok...gotta run for a bit...heard they dropped the price at the station around the corner...so i'm gonna go fill up, while I can!!!!!

Roger

 

Regular $2.75 a gallon today. That's a 6 cent increase from the other day.

 

Some of that may be valid, but look at us here in the United States . . .. We are roughly 5% of the world population, but we consume roughly 25% of the world's resources (even if my #s are a bit off, it is still ridiculous).

Actually, those figures remind me of a quote by an old professor of mine (he was a bit wacky, but that made his seminars quite interesting) speaking on the topic of 9/11:

For the alternative is truly horrifying: "the Bush doctrine" a blank check for whatever carnage will be needed to satisfy our blood-lust and to preserve our "right" to ravage the planet's resources. Because one fact above all others is, as Marx would say, "determinative in the last instance" of what is going on in the world today. 5% of the world's population consume 25% of its resources-and they do so by exerting control over the destiny of other countries. Bin Laden is a symptom, a nostalgic religious fanatic, but his fanaticism derives from a condition that is actual. In Rio de Janeiro, at the one ecological conference he attended, George H. Bush delivered a proclamation even more chilling than his crowing about Vietnam syndrome: "The American way of life is not negotiable." As long as that dogma remains in place there will be many more ground-zeroes.

Yeah, that might be a bit strong, but there is a good deal of truth there as well.

 

the way i look at it Roger is that people resort to hostilities when they run out of ways to back up their own opinions. which then means to me that maybe they are changing their minds but because the dont want to "loose" they become deperate. just remember that an opinion based on feeling is never wrong.

 

$2.71/gal here, now! Was 2.81 when I started this thread!

Roger

 

The problem with politics is politicians. I could revile GWB for his anti Alaska policies, yet support him on his anti Bin Laden policies.

When he says the American way of life is not negotiable, I like to think he is aiming that at terrorists, not elk.

 

I guess it's just me!! It's been a hairbrained weekend and week so far...and I've just been running low on nerves...no big deal!!!!

I was just stating how I percieve the whole checks and balances of nature itself, in comparison with what we humans are trying to do to change the course of nature!!

For example....We are using recycled paper to write on, so we don't have to harvest as many trees...but at the same time...there are more and more wildfires every year...so I'm seeing that as natures checks and balances are going to counter act our actions no matter how hard we humans try!!

What I meant by the California example...some cities are taking measures to make the air cleaner, and they are succeeding....BUT....at the same time...it is raining like hell, elsewhere, and causing massive errosion problems!!!! Maybe I was a little dramatic by saying that it was slipping off into the ocean...just trying to do a little creative writhing, I guess you could say!!!! LOL

I agree with that 110%!!!!

Roger

 

I don't think so. To the U.S., perhaps. But on a Global scale - and excluding the mess in Iraq - al Qaeda is negligible. They just make the news a lot. Compared to the terrorism in Columbia and Latin America (and worldwide), they are a drop in the bucket.

Now, I don't mean to take him lightly . . .

I think terrorism is indeed a symptom of the greater global unrest.

Unfortunately, you cannot draw that conclusion since the comment was made at an Ecological conference. He was clearly referring to our consumption of resources.

@Star - I'll try to find a link to the complete essay. I have a hard copy, but I know it is floating around cyberspace. The guy was by far my favorite professor . . . . But, he was (and still is) a little "out there"

 

Thanks for the good word, my friend

By "drop in the bucket," I am looking at al Qaeda on a global scale. And then, if you take out what is going on now in Iraq, they are a very small percentage of world terrorism.

 

Completely misread your quote there. It was GHWB you quoted. I didn't see the H. He would not have been talking about terrorism, no.
Mind you, that was 13 years ago. I think most Americans realise now that not only is their way of life negotiable, it is going to change, one way or the other.

 

Since we are talking about oil and gas how many years do we have left in
the world before we run out ???

I am guessing around 75 years.

In my part of the wood it $ 1.10 a litters.

 

Nobody really knows the answer. 75-100 years would be my guess, if somebody doesn't get serious about developing alternate power sources an dreal soon.

 

I love chocolate, yummy. Oh, better not; have to watch my waist line.

 

Of course, practically every time someone wants to develop a new source of power, someone with money comes along and craps all over the idea.

It's not on the website yet, but NBC Nightly News had a story tonight about the efforts to block a windmill farm off Nantucket Island by the rich who don't want their view of the ocean spoiled. No mention whatsoever of environmental issues...just rich folks who don't want to see a windmill between them and the horizon.

 

I remember a Doonesbury strip sometime ago about a California couple who weren't allowed to save energy by putting their laundry outside to dry because of the perceived effect on property values. I can't imagine Trudeau would have pulled that from the air, so I suppose it happened.

That's the attitude that has to change. Worldwide, not just in the US.

 

I want to put a 30Kw wind generator on my property. The first hurdle I have to clear is zoning, have to make sure I can put a 60' foot tall wind generator up. Second hurdle is paying for it. The third and hardest hurdle to clear is the people who don't want me to put one up, because it will lower their property values.

 

I say we all pool some money together...buy a bunch of land in canada that is right next to the Alsakan border....go down however much it takes and just tunnel over to the oil under alaska, then pipe it back to our property and truck it back to the us!!!!!!

What'ya say...who wants to join me...huh......................come on, anybody!!??

Roger

Actually my wife is the one that came up with that one!! LOL

 

no it wasnt. i havent read the entire thread. and what i did read didnt seem hostile to me. but then i have never been one to take words as hostile anyway.

 

give that an american gallon is about [size=-1]3.786 litres.

And petrol costs about 95p per litre round here, thats about £3.60 per gallon. Now, given the rate of exchange, that is around $[/size]6.51 [size=-1]for a gallon of petrol.


Please stop whining.. really. At least bush is paying lipservice to the idea of renewable energy, which is more then i would have thought of him
[/size]

 

OK, so I really take offense to this. We all know that in Europe, gas is more expensive, and always has been.

However. If you suddenly had a huge increase in price over a short period of time, wouldn't you "whine" too? It doesn't matter what the base price is, when the cost inflates 80-100% over a matter of a month, people are going to "whine".

But because we pay less than you do, we're not allowed to complain about a sudden sharp hike in price? Doesn't track, sorry.

 

No you're not, you've got the choice to drive a big gas guzzler or a more fuel efficient car, whether you "need" the car or not, you álways have the choice and the fact of the matter is that in the US there are more big gas guzzlers than there are here.

besides, our fuel prices have gone up pretty much in the same way and you don't see me whining here do you?

 

I wasn't going to add to this thread, and I admit I haven't read all of it as it hit 90 posts before I even knew it existed! But here goes, and apologies if I am repeating what has already been added

Some of the posts I have read seem very introverted. I think we have to remind ourselves of some of the reasons why gas prices are soaring worldwide. There's a war going on and due to it's location prices are being affected. I believe we should be supporting our leaders; primarily for the purposes of this thread I mean Bush and Blair. They are doing awesome work to bring the two countries together on this and bring about resolve. No matter what you think about war or these guys as individuals, they are busting their butts to bring about a solution to the problems faced in Iraq. We, the US and UK, enjoy daily our freedom, because someone bust their butts for us. The people of Iraq are entitled to that freedom too, and these leaders are standing firm in their sometimes unpopular principles to bring about that freedom. I respect them for that. Their decisions are not popular and not easy, but they stand firm and together! And we should stand firm and together with them too.

So, a knock on effect of all this is high gas prices. I don't like it either, and I don't drive a gas guzzler, but it still hits my pocket. But if we struggle a little bit with this, imagine how much more the people of Iraq are struggling to gain the freedom we enjoy every day without even considering it.

OK....that's my globular humanistic viewpoint. The situation is larger than your gas tank size It's about people.

 

5 cents a gallon currently in IRAQ. Seen it in todays news.

 

i am with you where do i sign up at??

 

And I suppose you have any idea what kind of car I drive, and know that it's a gas-guzzler? FYI, I get 33-34 mpg freeway, 25mpg city. Which is about the best deal out there, especially for a car I can afford. And yes, I do "need" my car. I often work 80 miles from home. Or, I suppose, I could spend 8x as much and take a train or bus, and get a hotel room, and walk to where I need to get from the train or bus station, which is never anywhere near where I need to be....

Why aren't you complaining about gas prices? It's ok with you if yours raise 100% or more in six months? More power to you, if that doesn't bother you.

Me, I find it ridiculous for people to complain about a lot of things, because they don't affect me personally the same way. But I don't go about telling them they have no right to complain.

 

I don't complain because there's really nothing that I can do about it but just take the bike or bus, the car is already on LPG yet that also has gone up quite substantially over the last year.
While I understand why people complain, I prefer to keep it to myself, there's enough stuff out there that's more important than fuel prices.
Now don't think I can easily afford to do so, I use the bike to go to college, which is 45 minutes to get there and 45 minutes to go back.
Then there's public transportation, which I use regularly too (in the weekends, to go to my girlfriend - 1 hour in the train, 15 minutes in the bus).
It's easy to whine about stuff when you can change your habits.
Just leave the car at home more often, take a bus, train, carpool etc.

 

If you lived here, you'd understand why it is virtually impossible for me to change my habits. Public transportation is not a viable option, as the scheduling, routes, and days of service do not coincide with when I need to be working. It also does not go to the places I need to go, since each city has its own public transportation system and I often work out of town. Were it an option, I would use public transportation. In fact, when I could afford to live in the nearest large city, I didn't own a car (bought my first car when I was 27 or 28, don't remember offhand). As far as carpooling...literally no one I work with lives near me, and often I am the only one from this city working in another city. We do carpool when it's feasible, which is about 5% of the time (I drive about 20 miles, then we get in one car together, and drive the remaining 30 or 60 miles to work, depending on where we're going).

Just because you don't think you should complain still does not give you the right to tell others they have no right to complain.

 

Yeah, you said that somewhere before, it was more of a general reply than it was directed at you.

About the last sentence, I do.
Your gas prices are still extremely low compared to the rest of the world, in my own, obviously short-sighted opinion you guys get the right to complain about the gas prices when you guys have to pay what we do, heck we could all demonstrate together

 

$3.01 yesterday

 

A list!
how handy!
Global Gasprices

 

Not always that easy here flep. Public transportation infrastructure isn't nearly as broad as it is in Europe, and we're a lot more spread out than most of Europe. There are lots of places you can't take public trans, and a bicycle doesn't work well in snow, or if you've got to go 20 or 30 miles, or carry a heavy load. Lots of places out west where it may be 20 to 100 miles to ANYPLACE, and no public trans except for Greyhound bus that may run once or twice a week.

You can go virtually anywhere in New York City via public transportation, and most all of Chicago as well, although at least in Chicago you'd stand a good chance of not arriving alive and well going through some neighborhoods. Most large cities have buses, some have trains, but many smaller towns do NOT.

Where I live, there is no public transportation I can take to work or to the stores in town.

 

ditto here. its drive or hitch. (still at least it is one of the last places left that it is safe to do so)

 

Well, that sucks.
So why doesn't anybody tackle that problem?
Iirc from history lessons you guys already have a pretty decent train network, yet it's mostly only used for cargo (right?).
It's not like public trans was always here either, nor is it everywhere, but it ís pretty decent (though bloody expensive too).

 

Same here (X2). Australia's isolated enough. Perth is the most isolated capitol on earth. Lucky if you can drive, otherwise it's by plane to any far out of the city.

Not only that, we don't have nice flat, good roads here. Lucky if there's any road in the country.

 

I watched on the news the other day that in boston, they compared point A to point B with the train (public transportation) and a car!! Guess what....It was cheaper in gas for the car, than the train ticket...and the car took 28 minutes to arrive, and the train took 35 minutes to arrive!!!! Not only that...but you aren't obligated to the train schedule!!!! So basically...the only reason someone would take the train, would be if they just simply don't want to drive!!!!!

So that got me to thinking...here in chicago...it cost me 6.00 dollars to take the train from aurora to chicago. I could drive for that cost...and I could get there the same time (except for the express trains which are only twice daily) !! So basically it is a toss up, but...when you consider that our trains are actually full blown locomotives pulling 10 or so cars (basically an amtrack train with cattle cars made for people) and there is 25 or more of these routes in and out of the city to all the suburbs, and I know our route alone averages out to two trains in and two trains out every hour...times all the other routes from chicago to the other suburbs...I'm not really sure which would be cheaper fuel consumption!!!!???? Our trains or cars???

Roger

 

Too bad that the oil in Iraq we invaded to get isn`t being used to expand the fuel supply and lower prices. We`ll never see two bucks a gallon again...I remember as a young `un riding my mini bike to the gas station and the gas was 29 cents a gallon. Sad as it is...we`re stuck with it. I am a proponent of alternate fuel. Petroleum is a finite thing and we do indeed need to make some changes. What will the ceo`s of the big pig oil companies think then?

 

The cargo train system here is NOT designed with passengers in mind. Whenever possible, trains are routed through non-populated or low-populated areas, because people don't like train tracks running by their homes.

We do have Amtrak (the only passenger line)...which yearly get a HUGE bailout from the federal government to even stay afloat. There is talk every year about doing away with the bailout, in which case there will be no more passenger trains in the US. Either way, Amtrak is not made of commuter trains. It's for travelling long distances, and there is typically a single station in each large city, with very few and far between stops in smaller cities and/or towns.

In order to revamp that, there would have to be HUGE capital devoted from federal, state, and local governments. Which means tax increases. And no one will ever vote for that kind of tax increase.

 

On a somewhat more positive note...I just paid $2.69. Of course, I had to wait in a line six cars deep to do so... *sigh* Everyone turned off their cars to wait, it was really kinda surreal.

 

solar powered scooter...
I saw a story about it somewhere on this site, but due to the polution belched out by my own large status symbol dodge ram king cab 2500 cummins turbo desiel, my old chemically impaired mind can't recall where it was...

What?... oh yeah, the poluted scooter story... *wanders off mumbling*

 

I thought Roger started this thread.

In either case, you need to calm down a bit, bro. I hate Bush probably more than you do, but MGs is all about respecting others views. I won't start an argument with someone who is republican. They have their own veiws and I have mine.

A good debate over facts is one thing, but try to keep in non-biased.


-Steve

 

I'm with you Pluto. i think bush is a muppet. i also think that, instead of realizing his own limitations and surrounding himself with people who DO know something, instead he has surrounded himself with more muppets and sycophants. i think the supreme court nomination is a stitch up, and that Roberts is in his pocket, i think that his response to the disaster has been deliberately ineffectual, i think he and his friends have put America to war for personal gain, i think he cheated the first election, (although for the life of me i cannot explain the second!). SO THERE. that said aloha all

PS. no point in replying to this rant as i will not read this thread now I've said all that. write and run.

 

Laurie.......you think too much

 

not something i'm often accused of. oh i forgot i wasn't gonna reply. on a lighter note, it's really REALLY windy here. i wonder if the weather off of asia has something to do with it? quite scarey taking my son to school.

 

out of respect to the people here at MG I will not respond to the slurs and slams at the president that were obviously influenced by the liberal left media agenda. Where were the questions from the left during impeachment proceedings????

 

Oh Yeah I wasn`t gonna respond....but as long as I did...the war for oil has certainly kept the gas and oil prices down. Oh yeah....no interns have had to have thier dresses dr.....er....I`ll shut up


<note to self> no politics....the press and CNN makes decisions for half this country

 

one more item....to the left....as to oil prices....can you say "North Shore...and 50 billion gallons"?

 

"obviously influenced by the liberal left media agenda. "

which media would that be. i can only get CNN and fox.

"Where were the questions from the left during impeachment proceedings"

i wonder if there's an impeachment proceeding for 'criminally negligent'?

"the war for oil has certainly kept the gas and oil prices down."

and the rich haven't profited at all?


i am proud to be a bleeding heart liberal.
i didn't mean to upset you Sasquatch, and apologize for doing so. we British are not above taking the rise out of our leaders, or even criticizing them