church v. science

There is a point a lot of my Christian friends put forth that goes like this "Evolution is a construct of science and I don't understand why people are trying to tie up things with the intelligent design debate. I am a Christian who believes in free will not determinism. I think God leaves this life to us to figure out the puzzle. We don't get to see the answer (i.e. how right we were) until we pass on. Until we die, he leaves us to use the talents he gave us to contemplate and try to understand his creation. I think evolution is the closest we are going to get to the answer, ID is just watered down creationism/determinism.(I do not agree but can see where they are coming from) ID is also too political. Why do we have to throw politics into how to figure out the natural world? Its just so much wasted debate." I sometimes tend to see their point. Marty

 

Great- so we're all inbred? Eeeww


-Steve

 

Basically, it was a matter of not questioning doctrinal authority. The church followed a set of theories, based on doctrine, rather than science.

Now, the model they chose for the earth, sun and solar system theories was based on Aristotle, an Ancient Greek philosopher who stated that the sun revolves around the earth, and that the earth was the centre of the universe.

All very reasonable and logical for those ancient times. Unfortunately for Galileo, Aristotle just happened to be dead wrong.

Now the church wasn't going to stand idly by while this upstart Galileo told them they were wrong. This was an acceptable affront Papal and church authority. The truth had nothing to do with it. This was a question of an usurper of authority.

So poor ol' Galileo was summoned before the Inquisition, made to see the 'error' of his ways, and imprisoned for life.

So much for the truth. It was all about the authority of the church, not reasoning.

 

Oh, b.t.w. I hope y'all excuse me if I decided to just answer the dude's question rather than get embroiled in another quasi-philosophical/ethical debate. I'll save that for another time and place.

Peace, people in whatever you may conceive it to be.



Phantom slides out of thread…>

 

Yes we are. Some more than others.

 

I love you guys. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

what's the difference- we all have the free will to do
whatever we willon have already always wanton done
..........errrrrr.......
just ask gal1998's egg and it'll explain.

 

We love you too jarcher

 

Just leafing through this thread again...realizing my ex-wife may have been right when she said I`m an instigator. I`m really not, just a semi-intelligent human(sorta)with a few questions I`ve found no satisfactory answers to. Now someone here has pointed out that according to The Bible, man and woman came from the same dna. ACK!!! Also....someone has pointed out that ALL dogs came from one. So this brings to mind a stereotype(I HATE THOSE WORSE THAN ANYTHING)about certain breeding characteristics and habits in certain...shall we say...rural parts of the world. You see....I cannot buy this whole "creationist" theory....just can`t.

 

I see this thread going nowhere, really.
debating a theory over another?


then there is Scientology
hmm. . .

there is confusion and misrepresentation in both religion and science(Koresh for one)

I was raised immanual(sp) which is a branch of the christian faith(as is catholic, wether they want to believe it or not). I have no faith, in anything, not just God.
Faith is the person, not the envrioment in wich he/she lives.
It takes a stronger person to admit they they cannot call themselves a christian, because there is only one who can make that decision.
I can call myself a yeti if I wanted to. .would you believe me?No.Its not who I am.
you can be a good person all your life and never truely be a christian.

the earth is round, that is what we where taught. Much like God in our youth.
but older we debate god but not the earths shape?
now in the past century we have seen the earth(as a people)but have you?
did you go up in space and actually see it?no,but someone has.
there are many things in science that are fact even before they can be proven. other than in a mathmatical eqausion(sp)

point is you can see the earth if you wanted to
you can see god if you want to
all you need is a spaceship and a .35

I gotta go now

I am really vague here'caus I am in a hurry
so dont whine at me to much

*about the spelling or grammer either*

 

What about buddha?

He was awesome! He didn't want anybody to worship him. He was just one of the guys, one of us! The common man, the average Joe. He attained enlightenment, but didn't get a big head over it. Sure, he was a little preachy, but in just sort of the "hey, you should try to be cool like me". He wasn't all about fire and brimstone and sending folks to hell for masturbating. He didn't want people to fear him. Scaring people into being a good follower doesn't make them respect you, you just know you better be good or you'll go to hell when you die. Living in fear must really suck! I try to be a good person, but not because I'm afraid of anyone or thing, just because it feels like the right thing to do.

Plus, he's always smiling! When you look at Jesus, he always looks pissed of and miserable, as if to say, "Man, you really dissapoint me". Frankly, going into a church and looking at that dude hanging there with blood and whatnot is a real downer.

Buddhas my man!


-Steve

 

I`ll never buy the whole creationism thing....I just can`t. But I gotta say this...if there IS a religion I had to choose....well....I agree, Steve...Buddha

 

Jesus really only looked that way at the religious people of the day. He actually hung out with Sinners and Prostitutes.

 

Try reading Darwins Black Box by Michaell Behe-see what you think? interesting I don't buy it all. Marty

 

I caught the tail end of a show on PBS tonight about Sir Isaac Newton. It stated that besides being totaly devoted to science he was also very, very religious. I wish i'd seen more than the last 10 minutes of the show. It seemed like it had information relevent to the original question in this thread; the church and science trying to live together.

Anyone else see it?

 

The bit I've never understood is, Adam & Eve had a son - then what? Or, Adam & Eve had a daughter - then what? This is a mystery... Any ideas?

 

Relegion is understanding and obeying the laws of god that make us perfect citizens of his universe,while science is the part where we learn the laws that are hardcoded into the universe and doesnt require any devotion or faith.The church was using tradition belief systems from the ancient civilizations that falsely believed that the sky was heaven.They saw it as an attack and judged those scietists as challengers.The relegions are founded on a system of authority that is the essence of the human society.The fact that God let us choose to follow these laws requires that we need a guiding force to make up that gap and fill in with the right law.Jesus teachings tells us how we can follow these commandmends that we had to learn oursleves(as against be programmed by god to follow them in a hardcoded way).He however denied he has come to destroy the law.The old relegion said:He made you like him,ie. you are a decision maker like god.And you have your responsibilities.Jesus said:Yes you have responsibilties like they told you but to follow these laws you need to go deeper which is love,forgiveness faith etc.We had evolved.

 

The thing is, evolution was never intended to be complete answer for the progression of a species, including ourselves. Darwin new it wasn't the complete answer to changing of species over a period of time and in fact stated that on several occasions. Just as Einstein knew that Realivity Theories isn't the definitive explanation of the universe.

This in no way makes the theories wrong, just that they don't supply all the answers on one fell swoop. They were never supposed to. What they were supposed to do is provide us with a tool, or set of tools that enhances our understanding of the world and the universe around us. And to that end, they have been successful.

Simply because a set of ideas doesn't supply us with ALL the answers in no way makes the theory incorrect. Incorrect is when it wrong, or fallacy, par se.

Scientific theories are evolving as our understanding of the world around us. There is a BIG difference between something being wrong and something which does not necessarily supply all of the answers.

There may well be other dimensions, and indeed an infinitum of dimensions besides that of length, breadth, height, and time. Current Cosmological and String Theories elude that this may, in fact well be the case.

It is possible, but as yet unproven that ‘spirituality’, or parapsychology may operate in other dimensions beyond that pf the normal space-time continuum. I suspect that this is, in fact, the case. Can I prove it? Nope. But I can experience it on occasions. But by its very nature, I cannot put in a bottle and dissect it, or analyse it in a lab, since laboratories only deal with conventional matter and/or energy.

It still remains to a large extent, one the great frontiers of exploration of the future. Those who whish to dismiss it, fair enough, but all I can say is that you may be missing out on large, and very important facet of life’s experiences. Perhaps the most important and profound aspect of our existence.

 

Correct. However, when a theory is treated as fact, as so many are tempted to do...

When a fact cannot supply all the answers, or has gaping holes, it is incorrect, until proven otherwise.

When a theory cannot supply all the answers (or at least come close) or has gaping holes, it should still be a hypothesis.

 

If I'm crossing the road and a car hits its brakes and starts sliding towards me I aint gonna have faith in god or the church to stop the car I'm gonna get the hell outa the way,If in that split second there isnt time to move I'll become the most religious guy on the planet

 

well, the way I understand it. .when we(as a people) believe the new tsmt. was written(some old scrolls where found)women where,as a rule,not important enough to be in text.

science can always be proven. It may take a million years. .but eventually it can.


buddha was a kid who fell asleep(or meditated) under a tree and figured out the universe(or at least how to solve alot of problems). I think of buddha as a really old hippy. . .he makes sense

 

Been there, done that. Literally. I pulled through alive under incredibly unlikely odds. Was it Science or faith? Who knows

Edit: I know the thoughts going through my mind werent religious. They were "Oh sh!" and thoughts about leaving my baby girl fatherless.

 

Thankfully God also gave us common sense for exactly these situations. He didn't give us it and not expect us to use it

That is called a "crisis faith" and, as Adrynalyne states, people do experience this. Hard to take on board unless you have actually been there

 

so here is my two cents.

i have a logical sort of mind and i am drawn to all the sciences. anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, physics, the macro and the microcosm. all full of wonder and dare i say.....miricals.

i also have a spiritual side and can identify with the many who feel gods hand. so much so that i cannot really give an explanation for my faith. it is simply there.

in the same way that i find it incredulous to question Darwin's findings, or dispute the findings of any of the scientific fields in the name of god, so i find incredulous to dispute God in the name of science!!!

i find it so hard to accept that every body simply doesn't feel the closeness of GOD the way i do, doesn't feel the power that radiates from faith.

if i could touch the world............

 

There is no such thing as an absolute fact - there are only varying degrees of certainty. We accept most things in life through some degree of faith – including science. We don’t know for sure wether most scientific theories are true or not until we have personally verified them for ourselves. We mainly accept it as a ‘given’ that the theories are correct, and that the experts know what they are talking about. Often, theories get modified over time, doesn’t make them false, they just become modified as our knowledge and experience evolves (if you’ll excuse the intentional word usage). Sometimes theories do indeed get totally disproved, like the sun revolving around the earth, etc., which was a philosophical standpoint, more than scientific.

I disagree. Incomplete means precisely that - incomplete. Incorrect is when something is proved a fallacy. No such proof of incorrectness or falsity exists against evolution, it just doesn't explain the whole picture, nor was it particularly supposed to be the definitive answer.

Well. I guess you could call it the Hypothesis of Evolution, since a hypothesis is defined as:- a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"

Except that evolution of species through genetic change over time has pretty much been proven in extensive research. The fact that mutations do occur, and minute proportion are favourable is somewhat correct. But the whole question of human origins is a bit different and encompasses more than just evolutionary theories.

It has to be taken in the context and times it was postulated, namely in the nineteenth century. They had no clue about D.N.A. or molecular biology in those days, so yes it's not a holistic set of theorems.

Some modern theories do indicate that there is a certain degree of ‘Lamark factor’ effecting DNA as well. Meaning that a constant behaviour could indeed have minute, but important impacts on DNA structures.

I don't have a problem with science, since I've been Scietist most of my professional life. I don't have a problem with God concepts, spirituality, or being a Christian either. The dichotomy only occurs when either or both sides of the debate become over-simplistic and arrogant.

 

Actually, a hyptohesis is nothing more than an educated guess and has litle to do with the natural world.

Guess>Hypothesis>Theory>Fact.

As for the rest, we'll just have to agree to disagree. If a fact is refutable, then its no longer a fact.

 

i mean no offense adrynalyne-
(and it is not offensive, which is uncharacteristic of
statements starting out with this phrase )
hypotheses are defined to third graders as educated guesses
phantom's right, visit here for a few variations-
hypothesis
basically, he's saying evolution is a theory (parts questionable albeit)
because certain mechanics have substantial verification.
cheers, all

 

I'm not offended at all, because I know thats a crock of BS.


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hypothesis
1. A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.
2. Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption.
3. The antecedent of a conditional statement.

aka, an educated guess.

Sorry I put it into too simple of terms for ya.

 

too simple?
for simpletons like myself?
I'm too dumb to partake in educated discourse anyway,
so i'll just leave

 

i have never really understood what all the big fuss is over the science vs religion debate. as far as i am concerned they compliment each other pretty well.

science is mans attempt to understand HOW he exists and religion is mans attempt to understand WHY he exisits.

and rarely have i found that either of them have anything to do with God.

 

I believe in god and have faith in christianity...but some people need to understand that they can complement one another!!!!

I am a walking talking miracle!!!! When I was 6 months old I was diagnosed with pnuemococcal menongitis, and after running a 107-108 degree fever for 6-7 days (which is deadly in itself) the doctors said "IF he does live...he will be nothing but a vegetable"!!!! Well here I am 32 years later with nothing but an approimate 50% hearing loss!! All the doctors in that particular hospital called me the "miracle baby"!!!!

Now...what I was gettin at...being that I believe in god/Jesus and have faith, etc., etc.,...I also have faith in the fact that god gave the so called doctor the brain power to learn the science of medicine, in order to accomplish the things they do to save lives!!!!

The reason I say this....I believe you have to have "Faith" and "Science"!! Neither one is strong enough to work by itself!!!! Look at the "Christian Scientist", for example...(and I don't mean to offend anyone...I am simply voiceing my "OPINION")...there are many people/children, that die because they choose to sit aside and pray to god to heal them 100% and totally by nothing other that prayers and "miracles"!! Whereas, that person possibly could have been saved had they just seeked medical help!!!! But no...they choose not to see that maybe god made an individual smart enough to learn medicine, in order to perform "gods miracle", but at the same time...some see it as a doctor (someone of "medical" science) simply using his knowledge to heal someone!!!!

That is my two cents...hope my ramblings didn't get too confusing!!

Roger

 

i almost always enjoy your ramblings Roger. if nothing else they are always genuine. i wonder about this one...

"I believe you have to have "Faith" and "Science" "

since science is, for the most part in search of proof and faith is lack of proof they dont really work well together....... unless you are looking for balance

 

I believe in me...












































and I like pancakes.

 

So do I. I guess we can go to Pancake Hell together. (Maybe IHOP actually stands for Infernal Hell Of Pancakes.) I never did get an answer as to whether or not we can have butter with all that syrup.

 

I didn't know you asked that. I haven't really been reading this thread. Threads like this one always go nowhere so I thought I'd just jump in and share my love of pancakes with eyeryone.

Of course we can have butter with all that syrup! I wouldn't have it any other way! If we're going to hell (IHOP) we'd better make it worth while.

 

What about Whipped Cream??

Do I take that as a compliment??

One takes up for where the other one left off!! Sure hell makes it alot easier to accept things!! Sometimes if there is no mumbo jumbo about exactly why something works the way it does...then maybe it was just meant to be that way, and let nature take its course!!

Again...look at medicine for an example!! The AIDS epidemic!! Scientist and doctors can't come up with a cure for that, but at the same time they can come up with cures for other deadly diseases!! I ask myself..."self"...why do "I" think that is?? And I tell myself..."self"..."I" think that even though god gave doctors the "smarts" to do this stuff...maybe god just doesn't want you to know about this one yet!! Perhaps he is using it as his own tool clean the world of what he sees as those unecessarily evil individuals!!??

But then again...I'm one of those that believes things are the way they are...just because they are!! I also believe in destiny!! I think there is a rhyme and a reason for everything happening the way it did to achieve the certain results!! But at the same time...I'm not going to beat my head against the wall trying to figure "WHY" it happend that way!!

Roger

 

"KARMA"...I do believe it can be real, and good or bad. But I believe karma, or fate, destiny, whatever you care to call it, is controlled by a number of factors...and it`s mostly affected by what people do, yourself and others. Is there a "divine" purpose? Not convinced. Like I alluded to earlier I think The Golden Rule is what makes things happen the way they do. Faith in a "divine being" for some is a good thing, it keeps your head up and your heart warm. There are those of us though that manage without that faith in a divinity. Myself at times in my 46 years I`ve placed my faith and trust in people only to have my face slapped. Granted, it`s a disappointment, but it`s real, and tangible ,you can get a grip on it. For me if someone does me or someone dear to me wrong I consider it a lesson learned and that person or persons is on the s**t list. I`d find it so much more difficult if I had placed my faith in a divine being and had my heart broken. Who knows? Maybe someday, as in my youth, I`ll change, and be "reborn". For now...I am what I am.

 

You didn't just say that, did you?

WTF!?!?

First of all. I don't hate gays. I'm not particularly fond of them and in fact I suppose I'm a bit homophobic. I find them a bit creepy, but whatever. Live and let live, right? Whatever someone chooses to do behind their own closed doors is not of my business.

With that said, I certainly don't think they DESERVE TO DIE! In this day and age, everyone should be smart enough to know how to protcect themselves, and I guess you could say that if someone contracted a disease by not using caution (i.e.; not wearing a condowm, etc- you could say, well it was their own dumbass fault. Kinda like crossing the road without first looking both ways. BUT- did you ever consider that a percentage of AIDS patients are actaually stariht men and women, infants born with it because a parent had it, hospital patients who got it due to incompetence of the staff, etc, etc.

Surely these people don't deserve to die a painful, slow death by the hand of your god?

Unnecesary and evil individuals? That statement is exactly why I HATE ALL RELIGIONS, ESPECIALLY CHRISTIANTY!!!

Roger, maybe I'm misinterperating that statement. I hope I am. If that isn't what you meant, please clarify. I read that as "anyone with AIDS is evil and deserves to die.

Please tekk me I'm wrong.



-Steve

 

Still surprise this thread is not lock yet i tought talking politic and religion
was forbidden here and the way i see this thing is going south pretty fast.....

Just my 0.02 cents you can keep the change.....

 

and what is wrong with going south ? its quite nice down here

 

yep Mississippimud i like south to it's warm here i begin to freeze my butt off...

 

I can't speak for Roger, but I would certainly like to add my 2 cents to this, as it seems everyone can afford 2 cents right now

No one is born evil. God loves every person (whether you believe or not!) who lives on this earth (and beyond if there is such life forms). What God does not like is the stupid, thoughtless, selfish, hateful, nasty things we do...to ourselves, to each other and to the things he put here for us to enjoy (hold the evolution for a second guys ) He knows none of us are perfect but He still loves us. And he just wants us to realise that no one is perfect either...not me...not you, not the old granny next door who you think is so sweet. We've all done stupid stuff...doesn't matter how stupid we think it is......stealing, lying, criticising (not on MGs , surely ), murder....it's all negative. As God's love is unconditional so ours should be. Hard isn't it? Genuine forgiveness of each others faults and wrongs are, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to get there....a little more each time.

So, in short, 'hate' the action, not the person

 

Discussions are fine provided nobody gets stupid and turns it into a flame war or personal attack.

 

I think everyone deserves to die. . .
if they work long and hard at it. . .

as a right of passage kinda thing
you've lived your life on to the next level of acention(sorta)
wether its God, some other theological being or science
its still death

but not before the pancakes
there is enough for everyone

http://www.thedotdotdot.com/features/images/pancakes.jpeg

 

Being diabetic I had to think a bit before I could truly appreciate the scrumptious looking image of all those sugar/carb laden pancakes. Luckily enough...I`ve weights to lift and walking to do and hammering that can be done. Gosh...now that I think about it long and hard I could work a little more and have a Snickers too.

 

oh yes !

 

Whipped cream for sure! And jam if you like that too.

I heard somewhere that God likes scientifically made pancakes. I'm not sure what those are but they sound delicious.

 

everything has something to do with physics,chemistry and an -ology
what makes pancakes so differant. . . .
what is the chemical makeup of pancakes?
hmmm

 

Making pancakes is very much a science, combining ingredients in the right amounts and in the right way. If you mix the batter to much the pancakes will be like rubber.

 

First of all...I NEVER mentioned the word "gays", "homos" or any such in my post!!

Second of all...on top of that, I NEVER said that "you hate gays"!!

@Lev...Thanks for saving me the typing!!!! I probably would've rambled a little more, but you pretty much covered it as breifly as possible!!!!

Roger