church v. science

Only if you're a member of a liberal pancakist sect. The fundamentalist pancakists only permit butter and syrup.

 

OH....

My Bad!!!!


Roger

 

I normally stay out of these threads because they can be so emotionally charged and they usually end up with people who are normally friends ending up angry with each other.

That being said, I have to admit that I had a similar reaction to your post as Steve did. Regardless of whether or not you meant to single out gays, HIV is often considered a gay disease -- especially by the Christian right. I think Steve's point was (and correct me if I am wrong, please) that noone with that disease deserves to die -- and any loving God must feel the same way.

I respect you and your opinions here, Roger, and when I read the post, I just hoped that it was "off the cuff" and you didn't mean it the way it came off.

 

Anyone assuming HIV is a gay disease is about as unhelpful as anyone assuming all Christians think that HIV is a gay disease. Both are stereotyping. Some of us Christians are actually well informed

 

I remember a "Gilligan`s Island" episode where Gilligan made pancakes that weren`t edible because of the rubbery consistency. Not only weren`t they edible they wouldn`t fix the boat either. Which leads me to another question...even though I know it strays from the thread. Guys...pay attention...I`m being sexist here. Ginger or MaryAnne? Easy for me...MaryAnne...not even close. heh heh heh

 

stereotyping sucks

 

Once again Lev...you've taken the words right out of my mouth!!!! Hell...there's no use for me to even write/type!! LOL

And once again...I am merely portraying my thoughts!! If you choose to agree or disagree...that is simply your own decision...and I don't like you any more or less because your opinion coincides or doesn't with mine!!

Roger

 

I was the first to mention gays, but if you recall, I also said this...

What I was trying to say was that AIDS doesn't equal gay, which is what I took Rogers comment to mean.

So it wasn't me that was stereotyping.

And Sasquatch77, believe it or not, Ginger! I know, everyone says Mary Anne, but I like tall chicks. Also that beauty mark was pretty hot. The funny thing is, you ever see them two lately? Ginger is an old hag, but Mary Anne is STILL hot!



-Steve

 

Publius said "The Christian RIGHT" as in right wing. This is no stereotype. Assuming HIV=gay is false.
@Roger. I took your comments to mean either gay or sexually promiscuous people, because I assume you are accepting of heteros and babies. I know gay people, and you would like them if you sat down and talked to them. One of them you would not know was gay. You certainly wouldn't want them to fall victim to aids.

 

I apologize, Lev. I didn't mean to insinuate that Christian = Gay basher. My point was that a comment about "unecessarily evil individuals" referencing HIV could easily be seen that way -- and ultimately, no one deserves that fate.

To tell the truth, I am both a Christian (Catholic) and a I lean mostly towards the right, with few exceptions.

Please accept my apology if I offended.

 

You didn't offend me Publius To be honest, I didn't think you, as an individual, meant it that way, but as an opinion that many people can actually hold. I have heard it so much that I know there are people out there who do deeply believe this. That's why I posted my response, just incase anyone was thinking along those lines But I do appreciate you taking the time to make sure you hadn't offended me. Thanks

 

Just saw Marianne(Dawn Roberts)on the tube last year. She`s still got it, for an `older woman`. And Steve...Ginger sank into hag-dom over 10 years ago. I always liked Marianne better but G was hot too.

 

I believe I've already established that....

1...I DID NOT EVEN MENTION THE WORD GAY!!

2...NOWHERE IN THE POST DID I SAY "GAYS" ARE THE ONES, AND THE ONLY ONES, THAT ARE SUCCEPTABLE TO GETTING AIDS!!

It sounds to me that you guys (don't feel like naming names) are the ones that are automatically associating gays with aids!! I mean...after all...I didn't even say that and I'm the one who is getting criticized for it!! You see where i'm getting at here!!

And furthermore...I happen to have a couple of good friends who are openly gay, and the one you wouldn't know if someone didn't tell you, and the other is so open and flaming about it...it is hilarious entertainment in itself!!!!

roger

 

I have read this statement, over and over, and nowhere does it indicate homosexuals and the like, so lets just drop that subject. I don't agree with the statement, as a child is born innocent, yet babies are born with AIDS. Sin is a learned behaviour.

Lets move on, we can all agree to disagree, but if the thread continues on the course its headed, its gonna get closed fast.

 

same as babies born addicted to heroine or coke...I agree with Adrynalyne...I can almost hear the door slamming now.

 

Back to the point of the thread One of the reasons I aint religious is because of this point why would God if there were such a being allow a desease such as aids to end a childs life before its even began?

If theres a war and children die its our fault,if we carry on polluting the atmosphere and children in future die for some reason its our fault,but a desease such as this is nothing to do with our wrong doing.

If there were an all powerfull being watching us he could have easily stopped the desease in its tracks and given babies the same chance everyone else has,if "its" reasoning is the time we spend alive is insignificant compared to the rewards in the afterlife why should any of us bother living just ship us straight there, if "it" has decided not to help, to let the child die an awful painfull death for no reason whatsoever then thats a God I dont want to believe in he isnt a loving god, but he must be if he exists and created us or why would we have these powerfull emotions? or the alternate is true we evolved there is no god and no one watching us

 

AIDS didn`t just appear, and spread on its own. WE did that, whether it be through sexual behavior, unsafe intravenous drug use(a misnomer, I know)and just plain carelessness. The big shame is the innocents its` claimed.

 

Hmmm. Seems like theres a lot of fellow Atheists here.

Strange, because whenever theres a political thread, it always seems most of you lean far to the right.

My reason is simply this.. I question everything. I am extremely skepticle. I don't believe in ANYTHING that I can't see. That goes for Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Chaunaka Harry, God, ghosts, aliens, pyschics, mediums fortune tellers, etc, etc, etc.

I do however understand the desire to believe. And thats all it is. If people want badly enough to see these things, they will. Ghosts?...PLEASE! Nobody has seen a ghost. They don't exist. But if someone wants badly enough to see a ghost, than their mind will create one. "Oooohhh that candle just went out all by itself! Must've been old dead Uncle Harry!" Gimme a break.

I understand faith. I just have none. Beleive me, I've had near death experiences, family tragedy and hard times, but creating a fictional charecter like the Great Gazoo just doesn't make sense. If you really think about it, it's just downright silly! It's like some kind of strange disorder. Life gets tough- so we create an "invisible freind". Just weird if you ask me.


-Steve

 

A couple interesting links:

The origin of AIDS and the first cases of AIDS

The origin of HIV & AIDS may not be what you learned


There are thousands of links of course with various theories but all I've read in one way or another circles back, or at the very least mentions the contamination of vaccine(s) as to how the disease made the jump from chimps to humans. All in all, I found it to be interesting reading.

 

well all you athiests are just plain missing out on the 'joy'.
seriously!! i'm not even sure 'faith' is a choice. but for those that have 'it', there is joy. not some invisible freind, but joy. deep, solid, unquestionable joy. joy in the face of such adversity one cannot even imagine. joy in the oneness of all things, in the possibilities,

 

As I said in an earlier post, we have all been given common sense and we are expected to use it. For every action we take there is a reaction. There are consequences for the things we do, whether we like it or not, and we have to take ownership and be accountable for those. As Sasquatch says, Aids didn't just appear and spread on it's own...we did that, and as a result "innocent" people are dying. We have to face up to the fact that we, as a race, have been instrumental in this happening.

God is all powerful...He could change this with the wag of one finger, but where would we be then? Expecting Daddy to dig us out of every scrape we every get ourselves in without taking any responsibility for our own actions and learning from our mistakes. Would you do that with your own children? Noooo! You want them to learn and mature into wise decision making and choices that do not harm others. Any parent who loves their child wants what is best in the longer term for their kid. God also wants what is best for His children. Just soemtimes we fail to comprehend what makes it better. That's where the faith bit comes in.

It's not creating an invisible friend....He already exists...it's coming to know that He already exists. Sometimes the tragedies we would expect to bring us close to God aren't the ones that do it, and it isn't always the first experience that does it either. If a person's freewill is immensely strong it can take years of hardships and tough times before you are willing to open yourself up freely to God's existance

OK...all geeks here. Imagine your freewill is a firewall and antivirus checker, spyware guard etc all rolled into one. It's top of the range, latest edition and extremely powerful. Life's problems are the viruses, spyware, hackers. None of those trojans and hackers are getting through to your CPU (your heart). You are one tough machine, despite all those attacks you keep getting on your system. But as time passes your machine takes lots of hits from viruses, spyware and hackers. You start to get tired, your CPU slows down under the strain of attack and your software is getting a little outdated. The virus and hackers get sneakier and getting through the defenses quickly and attacking your machine. One day your machine just stops and says "I can't do this no more.....someone give me THE most powerful upgrade on the software and fast" *Enters God* Am I making any sense here?

 

What freewill? Freewill is incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent Creator, for this reason: at the moment of creation, the Creator would know (due to the omniscience) every ramification of his action, every consequence. He would know every action you ever take, the moment he created the universe. Therefore everything you have ever done was a result of how he chose to create the universe. The "fall" of man, the eternity in hell, etc etc..all was his original Choice. The only one with freewill would be the Creator, all the rest of us merely playing out the choices He chose for us. That is, of course, assuming that the Creator was both all-powerful and all-knowing, I suppose you could get around the freewill problem by assuming that your Creator was kind of an idiot. Looking at the world around us, that might not be an unreasonable assumption.

 

And, ironically, Atheism itself can be a form of faith/religion. That is, based on belief and conviction, rather than purely logical thought, as Atheists would have us believe.

Politics and other concepts can also take on aspects of a religion. Absolute faiths based on many things, even including science, unless you can go around personally verifying every scientific concept and theory, one does, then of necessity, they place faith in the system. Faith itself does not make it a religion, but when it becomes a dogma, based on the precepts of not necessarily rational convictions, then one gets embroiled to some extent, in a personal form of religion.

For example, a fanatical Communist doesn't necessarily base his/her beliefs on observations or logic - he just believe because he believes.

Not all Atheists are religious, as such, but some seem to base their beliefs on dogma rather than rationality. Then it crosses the bounds into a 'religion' of sorts.

The question of wether a belief as rational or not, is question of evidence that can be experienced by the individual. Since by it's nature, spiritual matters can be experienced, but not necessarily proved to others as such, except by the said person having an experience, or set of experiences themselves, does not make that system of beliefs invalid, just that it may have to be experienced, and more importantly recognised by the individual in order to be verified.

The bottom line is - Does your faith have a positive effect upon your life? If it does, then wether it be merely a psychological aberration, or a lot more, then it is to some extent real, at least in terms of tangible results.

~~~~

Re A.I.D.S. Origins:- One the theories concerning the origin of the AIDS virus goes back to the mosquito in Africa, which bites a small red monkey, which in turn is hunted on occasions by the Chimpanzee for meat. The Chimpanzee, is in turn consumed by humans for 'bush meat'.

Another theory, though more controversial, is that it arose from contaminated Chimpanzee culture cells.

http://www.aidsorigins.com/

 

The freewill to make choices every day of our lives, no matter how great or small. Just because God already knows what we are going to choose doesn't mean we don't have freewill. It just means that He is all powerful and in being so already knows the choices we are going to make. As a result His pretty efficient and has already prepared the next step required as a result of teh choice we are going to make.

Think about it. When we were kids our Moms/Dads would ask us what we wanted for dessert, say,....but they already knew us so well they knew before we answered which dessert of a selection we were going to choose. We still had the freewill to choose...they just happened to be one step ahead of us because they are our parents. Same with our spiritual Father, only deeper and more so

 

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind ~ Albert Einstein

 

I respectfully disagree Rikky.

AIDS is definitely not a "Gay" disease, it is a disease spread primarily by promiscuity. That's an old fashioned word that means sex with people not your spouse (or even spouse equivelant, for the sake of this problem). While there have been highly publicized cases of medical workers, and blood transfusion victims prior to screening blood and donors, the VAST majority of cases are spread by sex, just as the other STDs are. It spread fastest in the U.S. in the gay community because the gay community as a whole is vastly more promiscuous than the hetero community. It's now decimating the African continent because promiscuous sex is largely accepted in the hetero community there.

The idea that sex is a recreation with no consequences has only been around since antibiotics and reliable birth control. In other words, since around World War II. And firmly entrenched since abortion was made legal, removing the last threat of an unwanted baby. Prior to that, sex outside marriage was always a risky proposition. Prior to WWII, there was NO real cure for any of the STDs, and sypphilis, ghonnorrea, and other traditional STDs were incurable, debilitating, and often fatal. And routinely passed from an infected mother to her baby. And having babies with no man around to help support it was a VERY real possibility.

While I wouldn't wish AIDS on anybody, it is NOT a no-fault disease. It's the fault of people having sex with multiple partners, and a society that pretends that sex has no consequences. Other than the fairly small number (thank goodness) of babies born with it, any couple that avoids sex until they marry each other, and then have sex ONLY with each other, have a virtually zero chance of having AIDS. Or any other STDs, and some of the other STDs are incurable today as well. AIDS babies aren't God's fault, they are their parents' fault.


"Free love" isn't free, and it certainly isn't risk free. That's been true through all of history, except for the last 50 years or so. It's true again today. The Bible's condemnation of sex outside marriage isn't just because God's a party pooper, it's partly because it is practical health advice.

No, His original choice was to set up a playing field and allow us to make up our own minds how we would play what we're dealt. If He hadn't allowed up free will, you likely wouldn't have been able to even think that statement.

I don't see an idiot creator, although I do see a lot of idiots screwing up what he created.

 

That's exactly what it means. Did you actually read my post? The fact that your god knew everything that would happen when he made it happen, means the responsibility lies with him. You cannot do anything that he did not choose for you to do in that initial moment of creation. You may think you can, but what does that matter? He wrote the book, you're a character in it, your fate was sealed the second he created the universe. The only way to escape this is if your god either A)didn't know everything that would happen when he created the universe (not omniscient) or B)was unable to create the universe any way other than what he ended up creating it (not omnipotent.)

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

If atheism is a faith, then bald is a hair-color.

 

i guess you do have to have faith there is no god to be an atheist-
that's why i'm a devout agnostic..........
i'm too indecisive to be atheist

 

The Bible, amongst other aspects, provides an Ethical outline, or a set of rules for man’s existence. It’s not perfect, nor will it be 100% relevant any particular individual, But as a rule, however, it’s rules are both valid and relevant, and have been tested in practice and the school of hard knocks over the past several millennia. The Parables provide the listener, or observer with a anecdotal illustration of why various rules and laws exist, and why it is prudent to abide by them.

As far as I am concerned, there is no dichotomy between religion and science. The dichotomy exists in the minds of the arrogant, as neither religion or science disproves or validates each other. As both a Scientist and a Christian, I see no conflict. On the contrary, both compliment and enhance each other, as well as human experience, i.m.o.

Both the Bible and God made one thing clear. The one thing humanity does have that is theirs and theirs alone is free will. With this in mind, the answer to theodicy (i.e. how can God be just, kind and powerful when there is suffering in the world) becomes evident. We live in a material, human world, surrounded by material, human things, and as a result some things and events will be apparently unjust and cruel. I am no stranger to unjust and cruel events, neither are most of you. The question isn’t why wrong exists, but how we deal and react to wrong.

Man is the Architect of his own free will, rather than “the will of Allah” concept, if you’ll excuse the intentional ironic expression.

The ultimate question is then posed. Why are WE here? Indeed how come God doesn’t “cut to chase” and beam us directly to heaven? The conclusions I have, in essence are these:- To evolve, or improve ourselves as much and as far as we can in all physical, mental, sociological, and I believe spiritual aspects. You don’t have to be ‘religious’ to know that this is basically common-sense.; also to produce offspring (children) and provide a loving and nurturing environment for them, until they are able to do like-wise (continuation of the species, and perhaps immortality in a funny kind of way); to provide the maximum amount of good to self, others, the community, and humanity as a whole.

Well, it’s the best reasons I think of for being around, anyway.

Then again, there may be no reason. The need to find a reason or cause in everything is a very human condition. It may be that we are just a minute cog, or part of a much greater thing, far beyond our feeble imaginations and comprehensions.

 

Hello, Baldy!

 

Not a helpful response.

Of course I read your post...otherwise I wouldn't have know the subject we were discussing in order to make a response

But that's ok ....God already knew we were going to have this dialogue.... and He already knew I would forgive you for an unhelpful response

 

I may be more inclined to believe in a "Great Gazoo" than an all-knowing all-powerful compassionate "God" . Having been raised a Catholic, I know this seems a bit odd. I`d like to believe, I truly would, but "created man in his own image" just makes no sense. I`d like to think that if there was such a being there`d be no Hitlers, Amins, Stalins, Castros. etc...
I`m not an atheist...agnostic fits me better.

 

Just a thought, the bible states that God was not going to speak to man again until the end of times. If Chrisianity is true, this would mean that God is no longer involved in our lives, that he/she/it is waiting and watching revelations unfold? IF one is inclined to believe everything they read.

The title of this thread is interesting, I do not think that they should be against each other. After all, science is the only way Christianity could be proved, aside from their God coming down from on high.

School, I saw an interesting quote sometime ago, and I think it may have actually been on this site, though I may be mistaken (dont look so shocked, it happens to the best of us);

"Teach your children how to think, not what to think."

We are not teaching our children properly and preparing them for the entire world if we only teach science in school. Granted, they should not be teached in the same class, but religion, and intelligent design, should be taught in school as well. It is a part of our world, our history, and even our mental make-up. We are not properly preparing them if we teach them to be one sided and close minded. A lot of hate is bred through misunderstanding and ignorance. Teach them all aspects of life.


What is the difference between theory and faith? Theory is something that cannot be proven, but can be tested. Faith is a belief in something that cannot be proven, and can be tested.

Just my humble thoughts and ideas on the topic.

 

in my younger days i was a lot like this but as i have aged i have done a complete 180. i now believe EVERYTHING untill it is proven to NOT be true. life is so much easier now. no stress, no pain, its all good baby!

 

In my younger days I believed everything...but so many times was robbed, screwed over , decieved and lied to that I`ve become what I am now. Now I don`t have to worry about any of the above...I sleep better, my health is better, and when I do trust someone or something now I KNOW it`s the real deal.

 

Science answers the question "How?" Religion answers the question "Why?"

 

You have to have bad in order to have good...otherwise....without one the other would be non-existant!! Guess I kind of said the same thing twice, huh!!

So the same goes with heaven and hell!! Hell makes heaven look good and heaven makes hell look bad!! Do ya see where i'm going with this!!

Roger

 

Yeah...I like that one too!!!!

Roger

 

That`s assuming the existance of those places. I do get you here Roger...a checks and balances sort of thing. Like I`ve said, when I was younger I was convinced, but it just isn`t there for me at this point.

 

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Don't complicate the pancakes, GT!

 

Ah! A fundamentalist!

 

I always have mixed emotions when threads like this pop up. The "why" questions of life are important questions, both for the individual and for society as a whole. We will not all come to the same conclusions as to why, but it's important to find some reason for being, other than a simple "party 'til you puke".

But I don't recall seeing anybody change their minds about anything because of forum threads, which makes investing tons of time doing this somewhat pointless.

Sort of like the Windows/MAC/Linux debates.

 

Funny I was just thinking the same thing everyone puts forward thier view without taking into account alot of the points brought up by others, I'm guilty of it at times , the few posts I have posted I thought were game winners as I bet alot of other people have thought, only to be suprised that someone has an answer and an argument

I dont think people will change thier views of religion/god,I think our upbringing is too much of strong contender,I certainly have much more respect for people that do believe in God and life after death,arguments for religion have held water in a forum with some very smart people,that has really suprised me ,with respect to those who believe,I will try not to dismiss peoples thoughts on the subject so readily in futures discussions

I am really envious,I wish I could believe theres a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow,it would really help with the stuff I see every day

Why are we here?

"Every rose has a thorn,just as every cowboy sings a sad sad song"

 

TRUST ? whats trust got to do with it ? trust is so overrated these days anyway.

 

Man ain't that the truth...

 

I dont know, if you set one up properly you can provide for your children quite nicely.

 

heh heh heh that's how I'm livin, Trust

 

I disappear for a week and Gottheit shows up again. Doggonit!

We miss you Eric! My Eric and I were just talking about you the other day. Hope to catch you one of these days. Or once we get our home in order ( been doing some serious home improvement) we'll have to set up a phone conversation.

 

GT, you are wonderful.

 

Your view of what a Creator is, is limited to what you yourself have seen and experienced. When someone creates something, it does what it was meant to do. A robot, a program, even art, it all turns out the way the creator meant it to. I think God is beyond that kind of creating. He exists outside of time and yes, he knows what is going to happen, but I still believe that our choices are our own.

I've always thought about it like this... when I was a kid, I really wanted a pet. I just wanted something to have a relationship with. Something that I could love and it would love me back. My parents didn't really want an animal in the house, so they got me one of those battery operated dogs that walked and barked when you pressed the buttons on the wired remote. It was fun for a few days, and then it got really boring. Not the same thing as something that I could really interact with. In contrast, if they had gotten me a real dog, I would have had to care for it, feed it, take it for walks, win it's trust, train it. Still, the dog could choose to like my brother more than me, even though it was my dog.

Does that make sense at all? Even though it's my dog, it doesn't guarantee that it's going to do what I want, or even necessarily act like it's my dog let alone love me. Still, that's what I wanted. I wanted something that had a choice to love me. I think that's why we were created. Yes, God just wanted a puppy Really though, what's the point of living if it's all just going through some pre-planned motions.

I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind with this, because as it's been said already, it does come down to faith in the end. I have faith that my God is not just up there "playing dolls".