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Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by g1lgam3sh, Feb 3, 2005.

  1. g1lgam3sh

    g1lgam3sh MajorGeek

    It is not God that is worshipped but the group or authority that claims to speak in His name. Sin becomes disobedience to authority not violation of integrity.
    [size=-1]-- Sir Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, speaking of organized religion, quoted in: J. A. C. Brown, Techniques of Persuasion, ch. 11 (1965), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations[/size]

  2. G.T.

    G.T. R.I.P February 4, 2007. You will be missed.

    Some times, some places, some religions. Definitely not universal, and not according to the rules of most religions. Some, primarily older ones, did diefy their human agents on earth, but most don't, at least not intentionally. If you personally do so, you're probably in conflict with
    the teachings of your religion, regardless of what current custom is.

    A lot depends on who's authority, on whether you're actually a member of
    the religion in question, and on how you define integrity.

    There have been so many different religions, different cultures, different mores, that there is no universal set of agreed on behaviors defined as
    "sin". There are still a few tribes that consider eating your enemies as acceptable behavior. Hindus consider eating a Big Mac a sin. So sin has no absolute context outside the framework of a specific religion. I can believe that you are sinning. You can disagree. We can each back up our positions with text from our own religions.

    Integrity is broader. It is doing what is right according to your own beliefs. Usually implies honesty and an attempt to be fair, however you define fair. Always implies being consistent. You can have perfect integrity and NOT follow the prevailing religious teaching, assuming you are not a folllower of the prevailing religion.

    Since Radhakrishnan is discussing sin, we must consider integrity within the framework of a religion.

    If you accept/believe/are a member of a religion, and that religion lists actions that are sin, and you are disobedient to those teachings (not just the secondary rules that most religions tend to embellish their teachings with), you have BOTH committed a sin and violated your own integrity. If you publicly accept the religion's values, and supposedly believe them, you've violated your own standards of right/wrong, blown consistency, and lack honesty. If you didn't really believe them in the first place, you're a hypocrite, and shouldn't be pretending to accept the religion.

    Radhakrishnan's dichotomy of authority and integrity is meaningless.
  3. mew2

    mew2 Sergeant Major

    are you all trying to make me think???? :rolleyes:
  4. Freddy

    Freddy Sergeant

    Sums up in once sentance why there are different sects of a given religeon and why people become disenchanted with religeon as a whole. Religeon is no longer a set of values but a set of rules which have little flexibility and don't adapt to the times.
  5. evilevets

    evilevets Sergeant Major

    Thats why I took up Satanism. Waaaaaaay less rules ;)

  6. Phantom

    Phantom Brigadier Britches

    That's a very broad statement, based on false premises, and vastly oversimplifies so as to not only become meaningless, but also untrue in the vast majority of cases.

    True, that religion, as with politics, and even science can be used as a means of manipulation and control of the masses. But that is not its prime function, except as ethical guidelines, amongst other things (Not killing, stealing, etc.) It is above all part of a journey of growth to the non-physical aspects of mankind, facilitated through a deity or deities.

    My Pastor and Church have squat authority over me, and most other people I know. I have never met anyone who worships a Priest or Pastor; although I've met a few that pay too much emphasis on them. They are simply part of a means to an end, not an end in itself.

    Sin is at least partly, by definition, a violation of integrity or it's not a sin. The so-called "authority" comes from the laws of the land, the laws of God, and the laws of common-sense and decency.

    Blending morality and human behaviour issues with certain hypocritical elements that is found in any religion, or any other aspect of human endeavour, is all too often used as a cop-out for people who just don’t want to follow the rules of society and decency.

    Certain hypocritical, manipulative and corrupt elements are not valid grounds to “diss” so-called ‘religion’.
  7. g1lgam3sh

    g1lgam3sh MajorGeek


    Yes, that's it really isn't it?

    If you accept that all individuals are responsible for their own decisions and the ethical consequences thereof, (overt and covert, conscious and otherwise), then it is surely otiose to attempt to assign collective moral responsibility.

    In my house are many mansions:)

    GT, well put, as always;)
  8. animatress

    animatress Corporal

    I believe that sin is an individual issue. Authority and sin is tricky. I believe sin should be governed by the ten commandments. The church and their canned religion says every week 'by next week you should change and be a good person and you are slipping if you are doing this and this' Well that is the message that the bureaucrats in the religion system will allow. I do not agree with this. I have found that my 'sin' is not necessarily sin for the person next to me. Yes I am one of those people that feel that we should all be governed by universal morals (based on the ten commandments) but that it is up to each person to follow them to the degree of their own personal morals and weaknesses. Authority in church can be lethal because those granted higher ranking in the religious system are given the priviledge to twist the message to emphasize that ex. big macs are evil or mass suicides are blessed and lead to cults or self destruction, mentally and physically. Each person needs to have religion but think for themselves as to not 'worship' the groups and ideals fed to them. We have the right to individually discern our morals and our worship.
  9. evilevets

    evilevets Sergeant Major

    Well here's what I believe...

    I live like there is no god, cause, well, there isn't.

    I feel that I am a decent person with very high morals. I respect everyone and everything on this planet (for the most part). As long as I know in my heart that I'm a good person and that I would never intentionally cause harm to anyone or anything, I'll be alright. My thoughts are my own, and I don't fear anyone or anything. Nor do I waste my time worshipping Gods that may or may not exist.

    If when I die, it turns out there is a God, I'm sure he'll take into account my good heart and good intentions, and let me through the pearly gates. So what if I denied his existance. As far as I'm concerned, it's silly to put all your eggs in one basket without 100% proof that the basket exists. It's silly, and I'll bet he'd agree that it's silly. I've yet to see proof, so of course I'm skepticle.

    I've got my own set of rules and values, and I know I'm a good person. I don't rely on anyone but myself, cause in the end, I might be all I've got. In times of hardship, I put my faith in myself and look within to see how strong I am.

    I know there are a lot of really religious folks here, and I totally respect that. I would never say they're wrong. In fact, my wife and mother-in-law are some of the most militant Catholics I know.

    I have been trying to avoid the recent rash of "Biblical" type posts here lately, because I figured my opinion on the matter would not be very popular, but everyone here is pretty mature and respects the opinions of others.

    So anyway, here's a different perspective on religion.

  10. g1lgam3sh

    g1lgam3sh MajorGeek

    Exactly, part of being a geek is the sense that there are more questions than there are answers, part of why the world is such a terrifyingly beauteous experience.


    Wonderfully put :)

    I'm glad I started this thread, such insightful responses:)
  11. Phantom

    Phantom Brigadier Britches

    I'm basically a "free-thinker". What I believe, I do so because it has pragmatically proven itself and makes, scientific, spiritual, practical and common sense to me. I do not believe in, or practice conversion, but I will share experiences and views if someone is genuinely interested.

    I never have been a follower of "religion" as such. Even our own Pastor will categorically state he hates "religion" in the orthodox, ritualised authoritarian, via people figures sense.

    I have a sign on my front door that says amongst other things "No Religious Callers", which sometimes raises a few eyebrows. ;)

    Good and evil can have certain axioms of definition, but essentially exist is the minds and intent of the individual. The world is neither cruel nor kind, it simply exists. The onus is on us to make the best of it, and one would hope contribute usefully towards it.

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