How do you bill / charge for malware removal and computer updates?

Hey Folks,

I have some questions for those of you that provide consulting services and bill clients for your work.

The questions are geared towards the time consuming process of malware cleaning and overall system protection and updating. So let's get to it...

Let's say I have a client with a personal computer. They have 80GB of actual data all on the same drive as the OS, they have very little protection in place, their OS is multiple service packs behind, and they have multiple unknown pieces of malware on the system.

Now that I think about this I could have questions dealing with billing as well as questions on how you would handle a situation in the fastest possible manner, but I'll put those second set of questions in a different forum category. Here is the second set of questions: Here is the second set of questions: http://forums.majorgeeks.com/showthread.php?p=1480984

So let's say you go through the normal process of running the 2 to x number of tools you normally would run to clear of malware. You also go through your own personal investigation to catch things not found by the anti-malware tools. You then proceed with installing your recommended tools (paid or free)... like anti-virus, anti-spyware, firewall, innoculation programs and so forth. You also go through the process of patching the OS with the latest service packs and patches that the user hasn't done. You also update all the applications that have been waiting to be updated that the client never did. You clean up all the crap toolbars, because they now only see 1" of browser screen due to the 6 toolbars installed, you start uninstalling all unneeded programs, removing items form startup, and so forth.

So basically at this point you could easily have 5 to 6 hours of time into the computer.

Now I personally charge between $65 and $95 per hour depending on the services. For this sort of thing it is normally $65 an hour.

Now if I have 6 hours into the system you are looking at $390 for the time. What I normally end up doing is cutting the time in half and charging $195. Partly because there are times I am simply waiting for scans to complete (although it at times is hard to walk away from some of these as it may need intervention)... and partly because if I was in there shoes I would think $390 was a tough pill to swallow. But now that I think about it the auto mechanics in our area charge between $65 and $75 an hour and the NEVER cut me a break. I can't get out of there without spending $300 bucks... but that's another story.

Anyway... what I am grappling with here is fairly billing the customer, but at the same time not screwing myself over in the process. I personally would not make the living I wanted if I was only collecting half my hourly rate.

I know there may be some responses where you want to describe how you avoid spending 6 hours on a computer and I DEFINITELY want to hear it, but I'll make another post for that and provide a link shortly. Here is that post: http://forums.majorgeeks.com/showthread.php?p=1480984

I know there are some folks who may do this sort of thing on the cheap... $15 or $20 an hour, but for that I might as well go work down at the local tire manufacturer and throw away my 20+ years in the IT Industry.

So those of you who do IT work as a business and to generate a meaningful living how do you deal with situations like this?

Do you simply do the bare minimum (just clean it) and then give the customer links to deal with protecting themselves and have them spend all that time getting protected?

Do you just make no money on malware removal and protection services?

What say ye?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on the matter.

Greg

ps. I'll reply to this with a situation I had recently that ended up with 18 hours of time.

 

I recently had a nightmare repair for a business client that had a somewhat slower notebook, massive amount of business applications installed and a huge amount of data on the drive.

He did not want to blow the unit away and start from scratch... even if we did it is a 6 to 8 hour process to get everything he has back on the system (if he doesn't have an image) and he didn't.

He started with several of the major fake anti-spyware packages installed and multiple other malware pieces. Here the process I sort of went through:

- Made full backup/image of system so data could be recovered if need be. So many applications the data isn't always in my documents. (80GB of actual data on drive). Actually connected SATA notebook drive into system to get fastest SATA to SATA transfer and not via USB. Still took 1.5 hours.

- Started removal process of all the malware. Had to manually do some repairs just to be able to run some tools as well as use CD bootable based tools. This took several hours.

- His system started locking up intermittently so obviously something was whacked. After a fair amount of examination my only option was to restore to an older image I made 3 months earlier. Restore took and hour and 15 minutes.

- I then started took the latest image and started restoring data files (that would be scanned for issues) and stored all the current data. This took almost an hour.

- I then started updating the system as it is now 3 months behind on updates.

- Somewhere along the way something become corrupt on the hard drive and a disk scan found the FAT totally messed up and was not easily recoverable.

- So I began the restore process again, but this time checked disk very frequently in case there was a certain step causing the problem. This time now problems occurred. So now we are multiple more hours into this thing.

- Now I am back to the point of configuring all of the anti-malware tools for the computer... avast, malwarebytes, spybot, spywarelbaster, OnlineArmor, and other defense techniques.

- I then had to meet customer on site and get computer back online to the network and get the computer account back in sync with the domain as the computer account password had expired.

So... in the end this was an all night affair and close to 18 hours of total time from start to finish.

Now granted I didn't sit at the thing for 18 complete hours as during the scans and restores I did step away, but I also didn't just stay away... I checked the unit every 5 minutes to make sure it wasn't hung or having issues as he needed this computer back the next day.

Again... I know some of you will probably want to give some explanation on how you may have done things differently so it wouldn't have taken so long... let's save that for the new post I'll start. But for now... when you have had these nightmare types of repairs or even just ones that take 6 hours like my first post... how would you bill them?

Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

I generally base my fee at $50 and hour. But, I don't sit in front of it for hours while scans run. If I am getting a lot of work, I might have 2 or 3 computers being scanned while I am surfing the net, or listening to music. I just check on them all along. You should consider the price of you selling or them replacing the hardware. As computer prices have gone down over the years, it makes it harder to charge much. At least at the repair shop, your repair bill is not likely to be over the retail cost of replacing the car.

I have found that people tend to pay more if they want their data restored, or have software that only runs on a certain type of computer. Also, I do this part time just for fun and for extra cash, so I probably bill a lot different than you might wish to do.

I have found Barter to be very much to my liking at a couple of shops. One being the one that works on my truck.

Good luck, I am curious how others charge.

Oh, and if they want it back the next day, and I stay up all night, they gonna PAY. And will be informed of that before I take the computer.

Keep in mind, for something like repair work, I mention Time, Quality, and Cost. Pick the 2 you prefer.

 

I must be a Good Samaritan.
The ones I work on are done as a courtesy,since I'm not a licensed tech,but I'm self-taught.
Tips are NOT refused,though. Word of mouth from satisfied "friends" keep others coming.
If nothing else, I gain from the experience. It's good training.

 

Yes... I generally don't just sit in front of it the whole time unless it is one of those situations where they need it the next day and I can't afford to walk away from it for long due to possible problems. I usually try to keep the bad one's below $250... but if they are needing all this data restored and many business apps reinstalled I generally charge for it... if it was a brand new machine and wanted me onsite to do all this installation (no malware issues) I am billing for that time.

I had a customer that had gotten some bad stuff on an older unit and I suggested they get a new low cost (BUT MUCH FASTER) core2 duo. They got the unit so their $500 bucks did get a nice computer, but 1 week after getting the unit they came back to me because they got one of the tough malwares on the unit and ended up having to spend money to get it redone... luckily it was a new unit and they had all software ready to go so a complete rebuild and protection of the new unit just ended up being a flat $99 fee which I do try an do if possible for folks.

 

I don't think I am a bad samaritan

I have done a lot of free work... I just have to be able to feed the family.

Wife gets grumpy when she doesn't get food!

 

No, that would be me. *raises hand* I do these things for family and close friends for a dinner or bottle of good wine... but I tend to refuse touching anyone else's system, since I don't want the hassle.

I did get that Sephora gift card once though... I spent it on organic facial treatments. :cloud9

 

I was going to say I am no Tech but around here you can reformat your computer for 80 bucks for each computer and they update and add what they have for software of spyware/malware etc they add to. I agree I think the big business things will be the people that need/want there data recovered or something saved.. I never seen many people charge that much. When growing up I knew a disabled guy that was a compuer geek and worked in some sort of computer something... "not microsoft" but something.. anyways hes in a wheel chair and fixes things for free and I usually donated 25 bucks and when I got older I donated 50 - 75 bucks.. But he was a nice guy and just wanted to talk to someone as well. Anyways comparing people paying for car parts/fixes to a computer.. computers are cheap. Many and I included would rather buy a new computer then pay 200 bucks or more for a computer fix.. sucks but it is what it is.. But then again tech people also do make damn good money usually from other people.. that can spend it easily but Car parts are needed and have to most of the times and many car places labor is only max 250 Ive seen on a huge bill of 2 grand for parts and 250 labor of many hours.. but computer parts are parts.. and we can buy a new computer for those parts we buy.

 

It's a tricky question but here's a little input from my experience.
I do a little bit of PC repair etc, not full fledged due to other pre existing guys in the area (who IMO charge waaaaaay too much)
I charge $45 for the first 2 hours (unless it's callout in whcih case it's $65, and I can complete most cases in 2 hours) and $20 per hour after that (funny thing is people moan about that), I only include time I'm actually on the persons PC, so clicking an "OK" button once every 2 hours for 10 hours straight would only amount to half an hour. I will custom build,format, install windows and requested software for a labour charge of $120 (which is what the other guys charge for a Recovery)
I also offer a certain amount of free advice be it by phone or in person.

Also just to address the mechanic comparison, while I agree they earn a lot, difference is you can rarely go out and by a new car for $400, you can a PC though
Thats why I think you can't charge tht kind of money any more, PC's are cheap now, parts are cheap, what is the point in someone spending $300+ on a PC thats worth maybe $100?

 

The point with the car analogy was I have never met a service center that discounts their labor AT ALL. Around here at a local service center it is $65 to $75 and hour and the bigger shops are upwards of $100 an hour. BUT in the IT world for "certain work" like malware and basic OS work it is difficult to charge for the full time it takes to complete, because it DOES quickly rise to the cost of the computer depending on the situation.

For personal computers (not a huge amount of data recovery) I end up charging between $99 and $150. For a full recovery with me installing all the defense tools needed and training them on how to use it. In the end my hourly rate is definitely cut pretty low. Training them usually takes a minimum of an hour so I do not feel bad for what I charge at all. I am just looking to see how everyone else "with an IT Consultant business" handles these situations. I know there are lot of individuals that may do it for you for a dinner or just say give me $20 bucks or a donation, but I am talking about someone running a business.

<< For personal computers (not a huge amount of data recovery) I end up charging between $99 and $150. >>

However for business computers or even personal ones that involve massive data recovery or they want me re-installing dozens of large business based applications that re-configuring, restoring databases, and the such then I am billing for that time.

To be honest from a business standpoint doing "malware removal" in my business is not financially beneficial due to the fact you rarely get your full labor time covered due to the costs. However when I am configuring cisco routers, firewalls, network security and such for businesses now there I get paid what is due. But I am at least 30 percent lower than others charge for network analysis work. The larger local IT businesses here charge $150 an hour for networking and microsoft server related work. I charge $95 an hour.

So if I was smart I would simply not do malware removal as it is the least profitable part of my business... but it is a necessary evil as these are my customers and like to take care of them.

I agree... that's why I usually end up between $99 and $150... other than those extreme cases I have touched on.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

Thanks for your feedback... with me usually being between $99 and $150 (other than extreme situations) I think I am easily within range for our area.

Only the smallest of shops or just individuals doing it as a side job are doing it for less than $100 total around here.

I have seen a few people in craigslist for this area doing similar to what you are charging and it is hard to believe they would still complain as you have mentioned about the $20 an hour. I can go down and be a dish network installer and make $25 an hour depending on how many installs done a week. By the time you deal with taxes and other business costs $20 bucks an hour doesn't go far at all.

I think it is time to take my mechanical background and start my own service center. Or only focus on network security and software development.

Thanks again for the feedback!

 

I know, it annoys me no end, I think the reason for people moaning or "Being surprised" when I ask for $65 for a call out and cleanup or whatever needs doing comes from their expectations that because I don't have a store they expect to get it dirt dirt cheap, that really gets me though, I know many shops are good and charge reasonably, but around here there are only a few and only 1 IMO that is any good.
Like a friend of mine took her PC to the guy in town, he told her he formatted it etc, and she was impressed he only charged her $110, but he didn't format it, he ran the restore on the partition, she then brought it to me to get rid of all the crap the restore reinstalled. A restroe is what? 10 clicks of the mouse and let it go, big difference from a format.
The other difference is I will advise people to what type of security and cleaning software would suit them best and install it if they wish.
Most shop guys will talk them into paid software which is all well and good but most people don't need high end security etc, things like Avast, Zone Alarms, Super anti, malware bytes and Ccleaner works perfectly for them, I will also explain how they are used and offer free advice if they get confused at a later date by these progs.
I've never once had a comeback, well not that was my fault anyway, one girl I built a system for and she forced a USB in the wrong way and srewed it up, she tried to blame me lol.
I also try my best to save people money, let them order and pay for parts and if possible have the things delivered to them which ultimately undercuts local shops by upwards of 15%.

But, people are people and put too much faith in a logo or name rather than the actual job quality.
A shop makes a mistake, it's just a mistake, I make a mistake and it's because I'm not qualified lol

 

A bit off topic here. The PC repair vs car repair is not a really fair comparison. As a former service manager for a repair shop, I can tell you this: we used a pretty standard program, 'Alldata' to determine billable hours per job. Meaning, a good mechanic should be able to put part x on car y in z hours. A really good mechanic can do it faster, and make a lot more money, a slower one, well, they don't make as much... Ever tried to find the spark plugs on a Mercedes ML?

But there is no standard malware. I have considered charging per infection. But that seems a bit to complicated. Some are easy, a couple of quick scans, run CCleaner, defrag, and poof, happy customer. But, as you know, some take longer. Might be more profitable to go into the data backup business. Sure the hardware only costs a few hundred, but the photos and data, or even the pron, can be priceless. :-D

 

I was waiting for someone to talk about the Mitchell's Guide or the AllData service . One of the guys I use goes by that... so if he is fast it is to his advantange. I can't remember if those guides take into consideration the model and make of the car or does it simply say changing an alternator is X hours regardless of vehicle... because I can see some vehicles being MUCH TOUGHER as you mention about the plugs on the Mercedes.

I have almost come to the point of charging by infection. $99 for basic infections, cleanup, update OS, update apps, install update anti-malware tools... and then $150 for a bit more complicated infection. Then generally I will charge more when we hit "priceless" need to have data recovered or need to install custom software beyond the basics. But there definitely isn't an easy simple solution.

On the note of how you do things... there is one shop I spoke with that almost always blows away the system everytime regardless. They view it as the only way to be certain it is all of and they apparently use a series of preconfigured CD's to re-install the OS. I believe they do backup the My Documents and any other folder specified by the client. I do want to talk with them a bit more as I don't know how they deal with other software they client may have had installed or what about data the customer didn't realize was stored outside of my documents and so forth. As well as what techniques they are using and what CD's that allows them to install the various OS's out there and not run into licensing issues.

 

Thanks dr.m

I am all about doing things that maximize time. I don't think they always had the "customer's CD", but their own CD's which would NOT have things like the Dell, HP, or whatever company's default applications so I am not sure if they bothered putting that free stuff back on from the web or what they did with purchased applications from the vendor if they didn't have the original CD/key or if they just put a clean OS without the apps that came with the system. Too many customers don't have their original information.

In the event the customer doesn't have the recovery CD's... I know you can have a generic OEM CD and use the customers OEM key OEM Key or if you have a retail CD you can install using the customers retail key (if that is what they have).

I try to make sure I have slipstreamed CD's so I have the latest service packs and don't have to wait on those to be installed when redoing OS.

It's been a while since I have messed with that, but I need to get my "OS TOOLSET" current and optimized so I can maximize an OS rebuild.

 

"I was waiting for someone to talk about the Mitchell's Guide or the AllData service . One of the guys I use goes by that... so if he is fast it is to his advantange. I can't remember if those guides take into consideration the model and make of the car or does it simply say changing an alternator is X hours regardless of vehicle... because I can see some vehicles being MUCH TOUGHER as you mention about the plugs on the Mercedes."

Oh yes, Alldata estimates based on the model. Probably for my truck, .5 hours for a plug change, for the ML, if I remember it is 3 hours. $300 labor, I think 12 $10 or more each spark plugs, oh how they cried when they got the bill. :cry

It would be interesting to have an 'Alldata' for computer repairs, but the custom builds would make it tough.

And please excuse my rudeness, welcome to MajorGeeks. :cool

 

I myself i charge $50 flat rate + parts + mileage for things i do but if its like building a system i charge at-least $100 and things like data recovery cause of virus's and such i charge more.... The way things have been i been thinking of upping it to $100 flat rate...

 

The same with me. I've fixed tons of friends computers and probably my sisters over a dozen times but then again it's not a full time job for me (sometimes it seems like it depending on what my sister has done to it LOL) and never asked for a penny. However, when food is offered I never turn it down :-D

My sister cracked the LCD screen on her laptop and the guy in the shop she took it to fixed it good as new and only charged her like $130 for both material & labor. He did a good job and I thought it was a fair price.

 

Thanks for the welcome.

You know... It would be cool to have an AllData guide for IT related items, but that would be one big guide!

 

I generally don't charge family or friends for computer work, as long as they bring the unit to me . . . and it's not a recurring thing (everybody gets ONE, lol). If you keep turning off your firewall and/or anti-virus because they are "annoying", then take your problem elsewhere, thank you. rolleyes

For others, I've never charged more then $60.00 for labor (usually $40). Case in point a co-worker called me one day to ask if I'd look at his laptop - he had that aggravating extortionware "Antivirus 2010 Pro" crap. A close friend of his wife's was going to do it (for 40 bucks) but they couldn't pin her down as to when. I was recommended. I took care of it, and wasn't going to charge him at all, but he insisted I take at least $20. I relented, but said "Bill, before you called I was sitting here with the TV tuned to the history channel, watching Nazi's get their asses kicked seventy years ago, and drinking a beer. The only difference your laptop made is while watching TV I ran a few free programs and downloaded some security updates . . . I still saw plenty of Nazi's get creamed, and still drank my beer." :-D

myitanalyst mentioned slip-streamed OS Cd's - I use them also. They are an indespensible part of my tool kit. The only problem I ever had was once having to activate XP Media via the telephone with Microsoft . . . and I think that was more due to some major hardware changes then using a slipstreamed CD.