Lebanon vs. Israel

The other side we cant see

FROM iSRAEL to LEBANON


infoseeker

 

Suicide bombings?
Attacks on Israel?
Attacks from Lebanon and so many other countries when the Jews had first been plopped down there to make their own way?
You think that Palestine has enough people to send 5 suicide bombers every day for the past God-knows how many years?
No.
They harbored Hezbollah, they pay the price. Since Israeli civilians are just "Collateral Damage" -- hell, they not even that, they're the enemy because of their religion -- why aren't Lebanese civvies? Are we creating a double standard here, just possibly?

CNN is opposed to the Israeli engagement. So is everyone it seems, save for FOX. Why? Because they're all liberal media, always picking and choosing the "facts" they want to share.

So, what you posted, dude, is a one-sided argument as well. How many pictures are there of Israelis walking around with gas masks because every damned country around them is ready to attack them with everything but the kitchen sink? More than you'll ever count, man. How high is the body count of Israelis from militaries of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and every other country touching it (and sometimes not)?

I want to know, are you posting it as humor, a joke, or what side are you on?

 

The UN is the most useless organization on the planet.

Another 25 years or so, that entire region will be rubble anyway.

 

The security council needs to be replaced by a more democratic system powered by strong international laws to punish the rogue nations (or help nations with rogue elements in their territory).

Its actions should not be decided by opinion of its members but by law.While the law can be made democraticaly, individual problems should not be dealt with a voting system.An international court should decide on that.

 

A thought...

I've heard from several sources over the years that while we can't do Star Wars defense type lasers we have come up with some impressive shorter range models, say in the 100-500 mile range.

If there were a way to pick off the rockets involved it would go a long way to slowing this down (you'll never stop it, to many nutjobs on both sides want it, but the innocents pay the price).

Just a dream...

 

Just a thought, have you ever wondered why all of Israels neighbors dislike them?
Could it be because they move in and plunder there country, there people And the United States is supporting them with money, technology, and weapons. That we as tax payers pay for.
Why do we do this? TexasBill

 

Israel is the only true democracy in the middle east.
Allah does not like individual thoughts or actions.
Just like on the old SCTV skits........i hope to say "they blown up real good".
The arabs are creating the hatred and mistrust themselves

 

You dare say that considering what the real truth is?

here lets break this down a touch. Arabs cannot marry into a Jew family Arabs are second class citizens, Check out the Arab children in israel and how they are refused the same education as jewish kids, and you say democracy?

Is this the same democracy that has murdered and oppressed thousands of Arabs, demolished over 4,500 homes in the last 3 years of Arabs, and damaged a further 23,000. Is this the same democracy that occupies Arabs with a brutal thumb,and oppresses a whole people, is this the democracy that steals water from others and is breaking untold UN resolutions.

The same democracy that murders the UN time and time again..Or the same democracy that blows up the red cross ambulances.

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2006/07/25/mn_mideast_lebanon.jpg
tab]Don't say it is not true this is a picture of 1 of the 2 they attacked in 1 day, notice the direct missile attack right in the centre of the red cross from the America paid helicopter and missile strike,yes your tax money sure does get spent well.

How about the democracy that refuses pregnant mothers if they are Arabs, to pass check points to give birth, and instead makes them give birth in the dirt next to the check point some babies die others are more lucky, thankfully there is good Jewish mothers, who spend many days at check points videoing and documenting the terrible crimes committed at them. And this is a democracy you say?
Example here. Oh here is one more example The story of Adan and the birth of her son is a fortunate one. Both mother and baby are well and indeed, got through the trauma without losing their lives. The story has not been so sweet for all the 54 other Palestinian women in labor, obliged to give birth at military checkpoints. Other stories beginning in a similar way to that of Adan’s have ended in the death of 31 fetuses immediately after delivery. And many of these are well documented, with the red cross and thankfully in UN documents. Wow some democracy. Seems to me that this is nothing more than pure brutal criminal sick twisted demented power mad behaviour. But hey i guess there is all types of democracy?
Now lets get to another story, how about the Israeli army officer who murdered a little Arab girl for fun, yes murder, he even went as far to walk upto her take his side arm out and empy his whole clip into her, what disbelief? Well here is what he said, An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old. Guess what charges he got for this cold blooded murder? Well wait for it, here goes, The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions Wow and people wonder why the Palastinions may be a touch angry being brutally occupied and murdered watching their children murdered, having their homes destroyed, there farms are stolen, their ancient olive groves are dug up by settlers and the army, these olive groves are as old as 500 years old, yes they last that long as a plant, but lets also relaize, that the media is mainly Jew controlled and therfor you only get the news that is favourable every single time. But thankfully we have the internet. Do you know the daily life of a palastinion? never mind the whole population? Read up on it and see how wonderful and democratic Isarel is.

Now i could provided many many links, with pictures, with stories from israel soldiers themselves admitting to these crimes, admitting they are done daily..Some soldiers have seen the light and have thankfully refused to fight.

Here is some reading for you. Please do not accept what you are told from rthe likes of CNN or fox news, mouth pieces only for a 1 sided news.

And please do not call me anti-semitic, this is is only ever used to silence the truth, Israel has used it far to many times..Check up on the historians who ahve been imprisoned as we speak, if we are so democractic and Israel is so democractic i wonder why anyone who dares speak out against israel is threatened with imprisonment. This is fact.

 

The reformation of Israel was badly handled, which has caused all other headaches. If the displaced palistenians were given cash for land and a place to live it would be much calmer, but that didn't happen. They are a lot like Americans in many ways, which is why we tend to be so tight. I think the reason they were/are given so much slack is the guilt of 6 million people in a particularly gruesome way, which we could have prevented but didn't. Before being holier than thou though, think about the owners of the lands Americans now squat on, we were just more through. In both cases the religeous nutjobs tend to cause most of our internal problems (the arabs have the same problem), they wish to impose their religious beliefs in their society and turn it into secretarian states.

I suspect when Iran actually has a stockpile of nukes we will have a nasty little nuclear war down there. Israel won't start it, but they'll finish it. Eye for an eye, city for a city, country for a country.

Israel was trying to make peace, and settle some of their debts, which is athema to the arabs that thinks the Jews will get tired and move away. Anyone with a ounce of brains knows this isn't going to happen, outstubborn a Jew? These people stuck to their faith in the face of some of the most outrageous bigitory over several millinia, its bred into them. Personally, I have a lot of respect for the faith, and the few I know personally tend to be better than the average person.

Their not saints, but they aren't evil either.

 

You do realize you're sticking your tongue out at me when you're saying that.

 

makes no difference what occurs in the region, the arabs will always continue until the destruction of israel

 

Long range artillery hasnt been used in warfair since the second world war until Saddam came along,its deemed to inaccurate and indescriminant,yet the Isreali's are using it in a populated area

The attacks on Lebanon are out of proportion with the threat from Hezbola a clear violation of the geneva convention,vital imenities have been destroyed such as sewage,water,electricity again a clear violation a the geneva convention,IMO the Isreali administration are war criminals and should be tried as such

All you ever hear is 'Isreal responds to hezbola attack' yet Isreal are the ones continuosly assasinating political leaders in palestine and lebanon,the kidnapping of the Isreali soldiers was a response to Isreal's special forces continuously kidnapping lebonese during the night who are then never seen again,the Isrealis have no moral right to be angry that 2 soldiers were kidnapped as they have been doing it for years,as soon as someone does it back to them they punish an entire civilian population by shelling it,its just like back in school,a few bad apples 'terrorists' are naughty and the entire class 'lebanon' is punished

The only thing Isreal has done is create more terrorists,they use the arguement they have the right to defend themselves,IMO not if that means killing 20 lebanese women and children to protect one Isreali civilian

http://www.moiz.ca/coffin.htm

 

That is incorrect, long range artillery is very accurate. A battery of 6 M109A6 "Palladin" SP Howitzers, can fire shells at a range of 24,000 meters and have the shells impact within a 25 meter circle. If greater accuraacy is required then "Precision" guided munitons are used, which are available for Long Range Artillery. Artillery is not used indiscrimintely in built up areas. Don't try to dispute me on this. I know far more about the apllication of firepower and the use of artillery than you.

 

Hezbola does seem to like launching their rockets from populated areas, they are hoping for the Israellie respose they seem to get pretty reliably.

Israel is definatly nuts on the subject. Some people talk about a disporportionate response, Israel practices it. I think it has to do with their paranoia and how massively outnumbered they are.

I don't like what Israel is doing, but I also remember that Hezbola is deliberately setting it up. If someone has a button, and you push it knowing what will happen, then both parties are responsible.

 

I didnt say artillery is used indescriminantly,I said its considered too indescriminant and I dont mean in the accuracy of the shells I mean in the picking of the targets but since you mentioned it artillery IS being used to 'bounce rubble' in Lebanon the whole area is being levelled and was started to be levelled before and during civilian occupation

Isreal have basically said get out were gonna level it and then opened fire at first targeting know positions and then anything thats still standing,using artillery to remove Hezbollah is the equivalent to using a mechete compared to a scalple and then when you throw in cluster munitions used within Lebonese villages even at the start of the conflict gives you an idea of the precision of the strikes

Why would cluster munitions be needed unless you were targeting an area and not a target?

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/24/isrlpa13798.htm

I agree artillery is accurate and has a purpose at a battle front,but not in this kind of urban conflict,I also think its unfair to use your military background as a full stop in a discussion,,,,mate

 

Wrong again. Just that let you know, my last duty postiton in the US Army, was Intelligence Sergeant for the 10th Mountain Divison Artillery. Which, means I did targeting. There is nothing indiscriminate about targeting. The targeting process is deliberate.

If a "Combatant" force choses to protect itself by positioning itself inside or near a "protected" target, in the hopes of avoiding destruction or to coduct "Hostile" operations. That target is no logoner protected and can be attacked; in accordance with the Geneva & Hague Conventions.

A 90 pound projectle causes far less destruction, then say a 500 pound bomb released by an F-16.

Everybody ignores the fact the Lebanon and Syria, by providing aid & comfort. to a force hostile to a sovereign nation; that nation being Israel and the "Hostile" force being Hezbollah, have committed an "Act of War" against that sovereingn nation.

 

Beacuse they are far more effective at destroying the "target" then the standard HE shell.

 

Artillery has a place in this type of fight. It reduces the amount of casualties that the atttacking force will suffer.

My military background gives me insights and training in the "Law of Land Warfare" that the average Joe doesn't recieve.

 

Everyone also ignores the fact that Isreal have been kidnapping Lebonese civilians for decades and torture interrogating them this how the dislike of Isreal by the Lebonese has brewed ofcourse this is totally different to Islamic fundementalism who are the ones firing the rockets and kidnapping the soldiers, in the last poll I saw 60% if Lebonese agreed to the rocket attacks although a majority, most would not be actively involved with harbouring terrorists and that leaves 40% who are completely innocent

The picking of targets is only as good as your intelligence,without troops on the ground to coordinate the artillery I dont know how targets can be chosen from 24 kilometres away,I can only speculate further do you know at what level of command in the Isreali army would be chosing the targets and how much time between the identification of a target and a shell being fired

Cluster munitions Rock! I wish they just didnt kill people,civilians anyhoo,I dont think we'll agree on their use

Some pictures for no reason just found them LOL

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/middle_east_beirut_destruction/html/1.stm

 

That is absolutely correct

We have our ways, most of which I am not at liberty to discuss. One system you have heard of is the Predator UAV, which provides a realtime feed.

Depends on the target type and location. The building in the pictures you linked to, speculation on my part, Brigade Commander would be the lowest command level with the authority to attack that type of target. Most likely, it was a Divison Commander who gave the order, that's from personal experience.

Sometimes a matter of seconds; from the moment a High Piority Target is indentified, and the order is given to attack. Rocket launchers are very mobile and can displace in less then 3 minutes, in most cases. Some can displace faster.

 

Nothing is better for arms dealers than a "code of honor" based on vengeance.

 

well...why all the naigbours of israel hate the country?why would u think?lemme tell u the history of this country,more then 60 yrs ago there was a complete country named palastine ,britian had thier hand on this country and to get rid of jews in britian ,bilfore gave a jewish billionare a promise that they will have thier own country and to make this dream country to "get back"to the land they think they owe.wars in this area was started,blood was everywhere and the israely dream is to get the land from river nile to elforat river.
they had war with egypt,syria ,lebnon and ofcourse palastine ,palstine is the main land they want ofcourse because of jerusalem,but still the map they need includes lebnon ,syria ,kewait and jordan complete lands,part of egypt part of saudia.
just imagine the idea of people think they owe a land from thousands yrs ago ,and come and kill ppl. who have lived all thier lives in this land.
if the holocost has really took place then ofcourse in the name of humanity i refuse and condemn it,but what isreal is doing now has reached far beyond the holocost.
ppl. in palastine r living with only one dream ,they would b able to go back to homes they have been took off one day that's why they will never stop ,israel's existence is temprorary actually they may stay for 100 yrs 200 yrs hwatever ,but oneday this bloody country will get to an end .

 

60 years isn't adequate to explain the conflicts in this region. The history goes back a bit farther. The concept of Zionism started in the 1800s and its goal was to establish a homeland for the Jews in Israel. You might find it interesting to read The Palestine Mandate:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/palmanda.htm

which tells how the areas of Jordan, the West Banks, Israel and Gaza Strip came to be under the control of the British.

Also, this is an interesting website about the history of Palestine:

http://www.palestinehistory.com/history.htm#01

abri

 

Not hard to see where your point of view comes from. You obviously aren't a student of history or english. No matter.

A large part of the problem in that part of the world is people are convinced they can kill or drive off the other side. This isn't going to happen. Neither the Jews nor Palistinians will leave, and they have enough backing from other factions to make it stick. As long as they (Arabs and Jews) insist that killing and war is the only solution then that is all they will have, and will solve nothing. Given the increasing ease of WMD the odds are that no one will be standing if it is finished this way.

Like as not (not being the preferred option obviously) those folks are going to have to learn to get along. Life is rarely fair, it just is.

Interesting reading Abri, I scanned a lot of it, it deserves a more through read later.

 

bottem line? muslims kill christians...............and its a sad situation

 

Simplistic, and wrong. The numbers of civilians killed in Iraq by Americans probably outnumber 9/11 by now. I'm sure a lot of the muslims say the exact same line backwards, which would also be wrong. When hatred is used instead of reason, you have things like the 100 year war.

I haven't heard anyone whom I think has the answer, but even if they did, the situation has a life of its own now.

 

Want the answer, here it is, and it is really quite simple to understand if you just take the time to consider it. Man is a killing animal. No matter what the situation or the environment man always reverts to killing in one form or another. The motives and the methods are quite varied but they are always there. Since Cain killed Able mankind has suffered his own ignorance and his own demons concerning murdering each other. If you wish to refute this you are more than welcome to try but all I will have to do is to refer you to any portion of history and you will see the truth of the matter. There is no situation where man will not consider (at one time or another) killing his fellow man in order to better his own situation. Sometimes "better his own situation" is not in reality factual but it is almost always a perceived notion on behalf of the transgressor. What is going on in the Middle East is and was perceivable by anyone who takes the time to study social dynamics. There are many more hotspots in this world that will also become vast graveyards in the next 10 years. It is one reason why I personally am scared to death for what my children and my future grandchildren have to look forward to.

It is sad that mankind cannot be more farsighted and cannot seem to abolish silly little political power struggles that cause vast numbers of casualties. It makes such ideas as Gene Roddenbury's so much more appealing. I'm afraid that there will never be anything even close to nirvana on earth or elsewhere. Not while man is still around at least. I wonder if this is relevant only to mankind or when we find other intelligent life out there (assuming that we find intelligent life out there) if they also will have this very obvious social flaw of ours?

Jack

 

Hi Jack,
It is interesting to hear an American saying this is the way things have always been done and therefore they can't be done any other way. That's not generally an American point of view, is it? Also, I find it refreshingly honest for you to refer to man, since it seems most wars/politics/murders and other violent forms of settlements are the result of a man's idea of how to solve things rather than a woman's. There has been a lot of study and work in the area of fair fighting, involving such arenas as verbal tactical, philosophical, sports and gaming. The rewards are not yet territorial, but the definition of territory is changing as communication rather than geography begins to define territory. Those forms of settlement involving weapons and the use of physical force are an archaic means which has not yet evolved, because little attention has been given to other possibilities. For one thing, the price of inflicting pain has not yet been calculated.
abri

 

Unfortunately abri even us Americans don't learn from history when it comes to wars and fighting.

You are not trying to say that women are not involved in any of the fighting are you? There are many historical records that pertain to wars fought over women or resulting from the whims of women (or one woman would most likely be correct). The "fairer sex" has their own share of causing discontent as well.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no such thing as a FAIR FIGHT. Competition is based on fairness, not fighting. Fighting is based on outcome, becoming the winner, usually at all costs as long as it does not violate the participants (note: not competitors) moral or ethical codes and sometimes even when it does violate them. Winning is the only acceptable result to a fight abri. All other outcomes breeds resentment and aggression, although it may take some time to show itself.

Hmmmm, that will take some more thought before I can fully comment on it. I will state that I also believe that "territory" has began an evolution along with the term "power" as well. It seems that the more technologically diverse and advanced we become the more that those terms evolve into new areas. As we saw in the 9/11 outcome, whereas the heartache and the terror in the human casualties were abhorrent, the terror in the financial and electronic world were more far reaching and inclusive. That was a show of power that it would behoove everyone to take note of. Nice chatting with you and it is good to discuss this particular issue on something more than one ethnic or religious group against another.

Jack

 

I prefer peace in our time, life over death, and being nice to everyone. That being said, I was dismayed to discover that, the seemingly unbalanced attack by Israel against Lebanon has been improperly reported. Anyone who has lived in the shadow of the Gaza missile brigades and their daily rocket attacks (and now it's Lebanese missiles) wakes up each morning to the realisation that WORLD opinion is stunned and journalists are paid to be stupid. Those Israelis that have survived school-bus bombings and market-place explosions will tell you, they are Frightened. This fear will either cause you to run away or else it eventually becomes outrage. So, when a gang of Lebanese militia ( called Hezbollah) cross the border and attack an Israeli position ( killing 8, capturing 2 ) such a short time after a gang of Gaza militia ( called Hamas) invade Israel and hold for ransom a patroling soldier, something snaps. Personally, I don't like violence, or war or any religious crap that tells it's believers that murder in the name of god gives you special priviledge in the afterlife. However, I must ask the question; is Israel the only nation not living in the land of pretend? Lebanon invaded Israel, but the pretense is that the invaders are an invisible gang of ninja creatures. that poor Lebanon knows nothing about. Apparently all those Katyusha rocket trucks they've seen around town are easily confused with their circus calliopes. The UN resolution to disarm and disband Hezbollah, that Lebanon agreed to in order to get Israel out of Lebanon in the aftermath of that country's civil war, has also been conveniently forgotten and disregarded. And finally, the backroom power brokers in the Arab League could easily end the hostilities by publicly telling Hamas and Hezbollah to return the captured Israeli soldiers, thus removing any excuse Israel has for continuing it's assault in Lebanon. Will they do it? God willing. Unfortunately, God has no dominion amongst the lunatic fringe.
-John

 

well said wraith

 

Hi Jack,
Thanks for your comments. We disagree in several areas, to begin with the one pertaining to women. There are women fighting, have been some great women heads of state who have conducted wars and a few women heros throughout history, but if one considers gender identification, war and physical violence appeal to a male gender identification regardless of what form the body has taken. (I haven't decided yet for myself if that is the result of learning, genetics, something else, or a combination of things.) Female gender identification, regardless of what body it is located in, tends to resolve conflicts in other ways.

In studying the animal kingdom, a lot of disputes are settled through ritualistic behaviors or the death or driving off of an important controlling figure. These disputes do not require the destruction of habitable territory. I believe the ants and the termites are more warring species like humans in this respect of destruction of populations, infrastructure and territory.

There was an interesting talk on the BBC before the U.S. invaded Iraq under George W. Bush, which described the process leading up to a war. It was quite a lengthy discussion, but the point which stayed in my mind was that it is necessary for a government to demonize an enemy in the minds of its people before it can get them to kill the other people. This requires the use of the media and the end result of this development of an "enemy" picture is that it is okay to kill those people, because they are not really human. One sees this very well in the use of the term "infidels" by Muslim groups which support violence or the term "Sandniggas" heard often in the U.S. Neither of these terms is based in a real picture of the people being blown up.

There are too many tangents to go off onto here. I started reading the Geneva Conventions, because, living in Germany, I have an idea how they came about. The pictures you can see over here of postwar Germany are not shown to us as children growing up in the U.S. The horrors of war, the actualities, are brushed off in our education. You mentioned that we do not learn from history. Actually, we do learn from history. What we learn from history is how to repeat history. An education which involves shifting the human mind away from the concept of war to other forms of resolution to disputes will require looking forward not backwards. Where do we want to go with this world? The externalization of our brains via the conceptualizaton and development of the computer has enabled us to look at the brain on a programming basis. As we near our own destruction via war, we are creating for ourselves the opportunity to change this self-destructive path by understanding how our brains work and why.

Social change is always the result of long-term efforts of study, research and education. People wear shoes today. This was probably once considered frivolous. Women swim today and are not condemned as witches. Social change does occur. It takes many years to sway public opinion and it will generally not have any effect on the old dogs, but comes out of the teenage and child years.

My own personal experience is that I've never met someone who's been in a war who thinks wars are a good way to solve problems.

I will stop here. This is one of those discussions that is hard to contain, because there are so many interesting aspects to it.
Thanks for your comments on my post.
abri

 

These posts have been interesting, but being on one side or the other won't really matter. Events in the Middle East are incrementally bringing the world closer to prophesied end time events. Israel will one day enter into a peace agreement with some sort of power base of nations in that region, but the peace will be temporary. The destiny of Israel and the world itself was divinely determined by God so long ago. Hard times lie ahead for mankind.

 

As long as God has all the responsibility, humans don't need to work on things? Did I interpret that correctly?
abri