PSU upgrade necessary?

mcsmc · Jul 13, 2010

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-K8N-SLI

CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+

RAM: 3GB DDR SDRAM (2 512MB and 2 1GB sticks, using all four slots)

GPU: MSI N465GTX M2D1G (Nvidia GTX 465)

HDD: 2 500GB WD HDDs (SATA)

Sound card: HT Omega CLARO

Other components: 1 PCI USB port card (4 ports)

PSU: 600W (continuous) Silverstone

So I finally got my new graphics card in the mail yesterday. I put it in, and it's awesome. However, I'm having a few issues, and I think it's possibly because I'm maxing out my PSU now?

First issue is, the computer is freezing. By freezing, I mean the mouse/keyboard don't respond AT ALL, and the only way to unfreeze it is the hard reset button. It's frozen several times.

Next issue is, the mouse/keyboard (Logitech LX710 combo) -- wireless via a USB dongle -- is behaving erratically. The mouse sometimes needs several clicks to register, it will drag things when I've only clicked on them, moves sluggishly or skips randomly, etc. and the keyboard, while slightly better, sometimes doesn't register keys pressed, or repeats a keystroke several times for no reason. I know the keyboard/mouse are fine, though.

The memory dump reveals a STOP 0x00000124 code, which is usually hardware. The last time I got this code, my sound card failed and I had to replace it. However, everything hardware-wise seems to be in good working order.

GPU temps are under 80C with fan@50%, CPU temps are around 50C.

So am I correct in thinking I need a bigger power supply... or am I way off base?

augiedoggie · Jul 13, 2010

Ya, you could be as their minimum states a 550W PSU so you'd be borderline at best and go down from there as the PSU ages. Can you find out how many amps each of your PSU's rails have or just link to it.

The best info that I could find so far is that the 480 takes 42A and they say a 600W PSU. Your card will have less than a 42A draw of course but these mofo's make it tough to find out!:mad

I would strip everything down to the bare necessities as far as hardware is concerned and see what happens, this means extra memory/drives/USB devices. We go on from there.

mcsmc · Jul 13, 2010

Current PSU:

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16817163109

The GPU box says minimum 38A.

augiedoggie · Jul 13, 2010

mcsmc said: ↑

Current PSU:

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16817163109

The GPU box says minimum 38A.
Click to expand...

Hmm, if you add your two biggest +12V rails together then you only have 18A+16A=34A, so close but not enough!

I'm a big Corsair fan as they have a single +12V rail and let the power go where it's needed. This load balancing thing of 2 or 3 rails is nuts to me.:confused

Take a look at the CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V / EPS12V specs, 52A on a single +12V rail. It's not the watts man, it's the amps! and that is my biggest peeve with PSU makers along with video card makers, it's almost as if they're in collusion!

mcsmc · Jul 13, 2010

augiedoggie said: ↑

Hmm, if you add your two biggest +12V rails together then you only have 18A+16A=34A, so close but not enough!

I'm a big Corsair fan as they have a single +12V rail and let the power go where it's needed. This load balancing thing of 2 or 3 rails is nuts to me.:confused

Take a look at the CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V / EPS12V specs, 52A on a single +12V rail. It's not the watts man, it's the amps! and that is my biggest peeve with PSU makers along with video card makers, it's almost as if they're in collusion!
Click to expand...

Well I'm glad you helped me sort the problem. Thanks. I guess my PSU upgrade won't wait, then.

Is Antec and Corsair comparable, or is one better?

augiedoggie · Jul 13, 2010

mcsmc said: ↑

Well I'm glad you helped me sort the problem. Thanks. I guess my PSU upgrade won't wait, then.

Is Antec and Corsair comparable, or is one better?
Click to expand...

I can't recommend one over the other as I have both in separate machines and both are doing great! My Antec earthwatts EA500 500W is currently powering a Q6600 CPU w/4GB RAM and a pair of 9800GT video cards where as a Thermaltake 450W couldn't even do one GPU card.(Thermaltake makes decent PSU's).

My Antec has a pair of 22A rails where I only need 18A for each card. This is the time to think of future expansion, if you won't expand then the 650W will do ya just fine and the Corsair will also be good..

EDIT: Pleasze don't get my Antec 500W eh? That was just an example.

mcsmc · Jul 13, 2010

augiedoggie said: ↑

I can't recommend one over the other as I have both in separate machines and both are doing great! My Antec earthwatts EA500 500W is currently powering a Q6600 CPU w/4GB RAM and a pair of 9800GT video cards where as a Thermaltake 450W couldn't even do one GPU card.(Thermaltake makes decent PSU's).

My Antec has a pair of 22A rails where I only need 18A for each card. This is the time to think of future expansion, if you won't expand then the 650W will do ya just fine and the Corsair will also be good..

EDIT: Pleasze don't get my Antec 500W eh? That was just an example.
Click to expand...

I was just wondering brand-wise... I'm definitely going way bigger, since I want an i7/DDR3/etc. in the future. I'm looking at these, which do you think would be better:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139013

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371032

I know the prices aren't exactly close, but price isn't the issue.

Also, what does multiple (12V) rails mean as far as a PSU? Could you explain that to me please? I don't understand that whole thing.

pclover · Jul 13, 2010

I like Corsair for PSU's I have had a Corsair TX750W for 8 months now zero problems.

Muti 12+ rails means it's split onto different 12+ rails. However I hate multi rail designs. You may have 52 amps over two rails but your video card may get short power. I prefer single rail design since all the amps are on one 12+ rail so it works with everything.

For a system like that with your video card I would look into a 700+ watt quality PSU.

I would go with the Corsair PSU you linked. I don't think you need a 1200 watt PSU unless you are running multi card setups like tri sli.

Also digging though google your BSOD could be caused by your HD settings.

Here is a good post

Original Post: http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5492844&postcount=2

Man.. we get this question daily. I really need to keep a response on my desktop I can copy and paste.

What is "multiple +12V rails", really?

In most cases, multiple +12V rails are actually just a single +12V source just split up into multiple +12V outputs each with a limited output capability.

There are a few units that actually have two +12V sources, but these are typically very high output power supplies. And in most cases these multiple +12V outputs are split up again to form a total of four, five or six +12V rails for even better safety. To be clear: These REAL multiple +12V rail units are very rare and are all 1000W+ units (Enermax Galaxy, Topower/Tagan "Dual Engine", Thermaltake Tough Power 1000W & 1200W, for example.)

In some cases, the two +12V rail outputs are actually combined to create one large +12V output (Ultra X3 1000W, PC Power & Cooling Turbo Cool 1000W, for example.)

So why do they do they split up +12V rails??

Short circuit protection only works if there's minimal to no resistance in the short (like two wires touching or a hot lead touching a ground like the chassis wall, etc.) If the short occurs on a PCB, in a motor, etc. the resistance in this circuit will typically NOT trip short circuit protection. What does happen is the short essentially creates a load. Without an OCP the load just increases and increases until the wire heats up and the insulation melts off and there's a molten pile of flaming plastic at the bottom of the chassis. This is why rails are split up and "capped off" in most power supplies; there is a safety concern.

Is it true that some PSU's that claim to be multiple +12V rails don't have the +12V rail split at all?

Yes, this is true. But it's the exception and not the norm. It's typically seen in Seasonic built units (like the Corsair HX and Antec True Power Trio.) It's actually cheaper to make a single +12V rail PSU because you forego all of the components used in splitting up and limiting each rail and this may be one reason some OEM's will not split the rails, but say they are split. Some system builders adhere very closely to ATX12V specification for liability reasons, so a company that wants to get that business but also save money and reduce R&D costs will often "fib" and say the PSU has it's +12V split when it does not.

Why don't those PSU companies get in trouble? Because Intel actually lifted the split +12V rail requirement from spec, but they didn't actually "announce" it. They just changed the verbiage from "required" to "recommended" leaving system builders a bit confused as to what the specification really is.

So does splitting the +12V rails provide "cleaner and more stable voltages" like I've been told in the past?

It is true that marketing folks have told us that multiple +12V rails provides "cleaner and more stable voltages", but this is usually a falsehood. Quite frankly, the use this explaination because "offers stability and cleaner power" sounds much more palletable than "won't necessarily catch fire". Like I said before, typically there is only one +12V source and there is typically no additional filtering stage added when the rails are split off that makes the rails any more stable or cleaner than if they weren't split at all.

Why do some people FUD that single is better?

Because there are a few examples of companies that have produced power supplies with four +12V rails, something that in theory should provide MORE than ample power to a high end gaming rig, and screwed up. These PSU companies followed EPS12V specifications, which is for servers, not "gamers". they put ALL of the PCIe connectors on one of the +12V rails instead of a separate +12V rail. The +12V rail was easily overloaded and caused the PSU to shut down. Instead of correcting the problem, they just did away with the splitting of +12V rails altogether. Multiple +12V rail "enthusiast" PSU's today have a +12V rail just for PCIe connectors or may even split four or six PCIe connectors up across two different +12V rails. The rails themselves are capable of far more power output than any PCIe graphics card would ever need. In fact, Nvidia SLI certification these days REQUIRE that the PCIe connectors be on their own +12V rail to avoid any problems from running high end graphics cards on split +12V rail PSU's.

There's less components and less engineering to make a PSU that DOES NOT have the +12V rail split up, so it's cheaper to manufacturer (about $1.50 less on the BOM, $2 to $3 at retail) and typically this cost savings is NOT handed down to the consumer, so it actually behooves marketing to convince you that you only need single +12V rails.

But some people claim they can overclock better, etc. with a single +12V rail PSU

B.S. It's a placebo effect. The reality is that their previous PSU was defective or just wasn't as good as their current unit. If the old PSU was a cheap-o unit with four +12V rails and the new one is a PCP&C with one +12V rail, the new one isn't overclocking better because it's a single +12V rail unit. It's overclocking better because the old PSU was crap. It's only coincidental if the old PSU had multiple +12V rails and the current one has just one.

The only "problem" the occurs with multiple +12V rails is that when a +12V rail is overloaded (for example: more than 20A is being demanded from a rail set to only deliver up to 20A), the PSU shuts down. Since there are no "limits" on single +12V rail PSU's, you can not overload the rails and cause them to shut down..... unless you're using a "too-small" PSU in the first place. Single +12V rails do not have better voltage regulation, do not have better ripple filtering, etc. unless the PSU is better to begin with.

So there are no disadvantages to using a PSU with multiple +12V rails?

No! I wouldn't say that at all. To illustrate potential problems, I'll use these two examples:

Example 1:

An FSP Epsilon 700W has ample power for any SLI rig out there, right? But the unit only comes with two PCIe connectors. The two PCIe connectors on the unit are each on their own +12V rail. Each of these rails provides up to 18A which is almost three times more than what a 6-pin PCIe power connector is designed to deliver! What if I want to run a pair of GTX cards? It would have been ideal if they could put two PCIe connectors on each of those rails instead of just one, but instead those with GTX SLI are forced to use Molex to PCIe adapters. Here comes the problem: When you use the Molex to PCIe adapters, you have now added the load from graphics cards onto the rail that's also supplying power to all of your hard drives, optical drives, fans, CCFL's, water pump.. you name it. Suddenly, during a game, the PC shuts down completely.

Solution: To my knowledge, there aren't one-to-two PCIe adapters. Ideally, you'd want to open that PSU up and solder down another pair of PCIe connectors to the rails the existing PCIe connectors are on, but alas... that is not practical. So even if your PSU has MORE than ample power for your next graphics cards upgrade, if it doesn't come with all of the appropriate connectors, it's time to buy another power supply.

Example 2:

Thermal Electric Coolers take a lot of power and are typically powered by Molex power connectors. I, for one, prefer to run TEC's on their own power supply. But that's not always an option. If you had a power supply with split +12V rails and powered your TEC's with Molexes, you would be putting your TEC's on the same +12V rail as the hard drives, optical drives, fans, CCFL's, water pump.. you name it, just as you did with the Molex to PCIe adapters. The power supply could, essentially, shut down on you in the middle of using it. A power supply with a single, non-split, +12V rail would not have any kind of limit as to how much power is delivered to any particular group of connectors, so one could essentially run several TEC's off of Molex power connectors and not experience any problems if one had a single +12V rail PSU.

Typical multiple +12V rail configurations:

* 2 x 12V rails
o Original ATX12V specification's division of +12V rails.
o One rail to the CPU, one rail to everything else.
o VERY old school since it's very likely that "everything else" may include a graphics card that requires a PCIe connector.
o Typically only seen on PSU's < 600W.
* 3 x 12V rails
o A "modified" ATX12V specification that takes into consideration PCIe power connectors.
o One rail to the CPU, one rail to everything else but the PCIe connectors and a third rail just for PCIe connectors.
o Works perfectly for SLI, but not good for PC's requiring four PCIe connectors.
* 4 x 12V rails (EPS12V style)
o Originally implemented in EPS12V specification
o Because typical application meant deployment in dual processor machine, two +12V rails went to CPU cores via the 8-pin CPU power connector.
o "Everything else" is typically split up between two other +12V rails. Sometimes 24-pin's two +12V would share with SATA and Molex would go on fourth rail.
o Not really good for high end SLI because a graphics card always has to share with something.
o Currently Nvidia will NOT SLI certify PSU's using this layout because they now require PCIe connectors to get their own rail.
o In the non-server, enthusiast/gaming market we don't see this anymore. The "mistake" of implementing this layout was only done initially by two or three PSU companies in PSU's between 600W and 850W and only for about a year's time.
* 4 x 12V rails (Most common arrangement for "enthusiast" PC)
o A "modified" ATX12V, very much like 3 x 12V rails except the two, four or even six PCIe power connectors are split up across the additional two +12V rails.
o If the PSU supports 8-pin PCIe or has three PCIe power connectors on each of the +12V rails, it's not uncommon for their +12V rail to support a good deal more than just 20A.
o This is most common in 700W to 1000W power supplies, although for 800W and up power supplies it's not unusual to see +12V ratings greater than 20A per rail.
* 5 x 12V rails
o This is very much what one could call an EPS12V/ATX12V hybrid.
o Dual processors still each get their own rail, but so do the PCIe power connectors.
o This can typically be found in 850W to 1000W power supplies.
* 6 x 12V rails
o This is the mack daddy because it satisfies EPS12V specifications AND four or six PCIe power connectors without having to exceed 20A on any +12V rail
o Two +12V rails are dedicated to CPU cores just like an EPS12V power supply.
o 24-pin's +12V, SATA, Molex, etc. are split up across two more +12V rails.
o PCIe power connectors are split up across the last two +12V rails.
o This is typically only seen in 1000W and up power supplies.

Ok... What's the bottom line?

The bottom line is, for 99% of the folks out there single vs. multiple +12V rails is a NON ISSUE. It's something that has been hyped up by marketing folks on BOTH SIDES of the fence. Too often we see mis-prioritized requests for PSU advice: Asking "what single +12V rail PSU should I get" when the person isn't even running SLI! Unless you're running a plethora of Peltiers in your machine, it should be a non-issue assuming that the PSU has all of the connectors your machine requires and there are no need for "splitters" (see Example 1 in the previous bullet point).

The criteria for buying a PSU should be:

* Does the PSU provide enough power for my machine?
* Does the PSU have all of the connectors I require (6-pin for high end PCIe, two 6-pin, four 6-pin or even the newer 8-pin PCIe connector)?
* If using SLI or Crossfire, is the unit SLI or Crossfire certified (doesn't matter if a PSU is certified for one or the other as long as it has the correct connectors. If it passed certification for EITHER that means it's been real world tested with dual graphics cards in a worst case scenario).

Figure out if there are any variables that may affect the actual output capability of the PSU:

* What temperature is the PSU rated at? Room (25° to 30°C) or actual operating temperature (40°C to 50°C)
* If room temperature, what's the derating curve? As a PSU runs hotter, it's capability to put out power is diminished. If no de-rate can be found, assume that a PSU rated at room temperature may only be able to put out around 75% of it's rated capability once installed in a PC.

After that, narrow selection down with finer details that may be more important to others than it may be to you....

* Does the unit have power factor correction?
* Is the unit efficient?
* Is the unit quiet?
* Is the unit modular?
* Am I paying extra for bling?
* Do I want bling?
Click to expand...

mcsmc · Jul 16, 2010

First of all, an update:

I removed the new graphics card and put the old one back in the machine until my new PSU arrives. I decided to order a Corsair 1000W

Link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139007

It's slightly pricey, but PSUs are the last thing you want to skimp on when building a computer! It has a lot of great reviews, and it's a Corsair (seems to be highly recommended on this forum).

I have an additional question, though...

Could I have possibly damaged my PSU by using that video card and the crashes and everything?

I'm having issues I didn't have before I installed the video card with the keyboard and mouse, of all things. They're a wireless combo (running off of a single USB dongle). The model is Logitech LX710. I confirmed they weren't faulty by purchasing another Logitech wireless keyboard/mouse combo and plugging it in with the same effects (which I'm going to return, since the one I've been using obviously isn't faulty).

Obviously, I'll start a new thread to troubleshoot the keyboard/mouse issues... I'm simply wondering if I need to be doing that, or am I likely using a now damaged PSU or what?

pclover · Jul 16, 2010

mcsmc said: ↑

First of all, an update:

I removed the new graphics card and put the old one back in the machine until my new PSU arrives. I decided to order a Corsair 1000W

Link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139007

It's slightly pricey, but PSUs are the last thing you want to skimp on when building a computer! It has a lot of great reviews, and it's a Corsair (seems to be highly recommended on this forum).

I have an additional question, though...

Could I have possibly damaged my PSU by using that video card and the crashes and everything?

I'm having issues I didn't have before I installed the video card with the keyboard and mouse, of all things. They're a wireless combo (running off of a single USB dongle). The model is Logitech LX710. I confirmed they weren't faulty by purchasing another Logitech wireless keyboard/mouse combo and plugging it in with the same effects (which I'm going to return, since the one I've been using obviously isn't faulty).

Obviously, I'll start a new thread to troubleshoot the keyboard/mouse issues... I'm simply wondering if I need to be doing that, or am I likely using a now damaged PSU or what?
Click to expand...

Not sure if your PSU is damaged

That is awesome psu. A bit overkill but that will run a very high end system without a problem tri-sli etc.

mcsmc · Jul 17, 2010

pclover said: ↑

Not sure if your PSU is damaged

That is awesome psu. A bit overkill but that will run a very high end system without a problem tri-sli etc.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I don't suppose there's any PSU diagnostic software utilities around?

The voltages on OCCT appear in normal ranges... I'm just stumped, because this keyboard/mouse issue didn't pop up until I put the new GPU in.

Oh well, my new awesome PSU should get here in a few days, so I guess I'll hold off from reinstalling everything until I can see if that fixes the issue.

augiedoggie · Jul 17, 2010

mcsmc said: ↑

Thanks for the reply. I don't suppose there's any PSU diagnostic software utilities around?

The voltages on OCCT appear in normal ranges... I'm just stumped, because this keyboard/mouse issue didn't pop up until I put the new GPU in.

Oh well, my new awesome PSU should get here in a few days, so I guess I'll hold off from reinstalling everything until I can see if that fixes the issue.
Click to expand...

Jeez man, a 1000W PSU?!:drool Like pclover said, a tad overkill! It'll still probably be good enough for your next build too! Slapping a new GPU in should have nothing to do with keyboard/mouse. Have you tried to delete/reinstall drivers yet both for GPU/kbd/mse?

@pclover Great objective write up on pros and cons man. I saved it to reread as that's a lot of info to digest.

pclover · Jul 18, 2010

augiedoggie said: ↑

@pclover Great objective write up on pros and cons man. I saved it to reread as that's a lot of info to digest.
Click to expand...

I didn't write it. I only quoted it and linked it to another site :-D

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PSU upgrade necessary?

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