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Replacing Motherboard And Os; Which One First?

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by GSGregg, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Unfortunately, we have probably an 8 hour time difference from UK to America, so our posts get delayed, but your patience is very good.
    I read through your other thread, and it gives me further information /questions, that I will ask, now.
    Old motherboard
    Are you now putting the old motherboard back, OR, have you now done so? and using same graphics card, and same psu that you had before inserting new motherboard ?
    With original ram ? Or, using on-board graphics vga ? Did it go into bios O.K ? Did screen show O.K ? and with on board graphics, or, your old graphics card ? Try it with the on-board graphics, with the graphics card removed.-did it work- still same problems ?
    Don't worry about constant re-starts on old motherboard, although I need to know about that.
    We spoke earlier about the psu- If it is the same one from the previous setup, I would test 12v, and 5v rails ,as I notice no-one had suggested testing it previously, as a faulty psu can give so many curious problems.
    If all o.k (using your old graphics card) then try the new ram in the old motherboard- see if it makes any difference........
    After the tests-if screen works O.K, If everything checks out , then replace with new motherboard.
    New motherboard
    On your new board , on page 16 of the manual says not to use a 3.3v agp card, as this may damage the motherboard, so check the rating of your agp card if you can while on the old board. This motherboard supports 1 x AGP slot for 1.5V 8X/4X AGP card.
    ONLY TRY THE ON-BOARD GRAPHICS- DO NOT INSERT A GRAPHICS CARD, USE on- board vga point.
    Do not put the graphics card in whilst testing to get into bios screen -
    IN FACT , NOT UNTIL YOU HAVE INSTALLED AN OPERATING SYSTEM, JUST TO BE SURE.
    A graphics card , if in the allotted slot could confuse the motherboard until an operating system has been installed, owing to driver availability, so just use the vga connection on the rear of the motherboard- This would also eliminate the graphics card from any problems in getting in to bios.
    If everything worked, but with problems on the old motherboard, we need to see definitely need to see if the psu and graphics card are not faulty.
    You may be able to print the manual from
    http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/775i65G R3.0/index.asp?cat=CPU#Manual
    But I believe you noted that the library might not allow downloads.
     
  2. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Haven't reinstalled 661FX-M7 yet; too busy trying to ready the 775 for shipping, just in case...complications include the protective cover(?)/cap(?) being too big to fit comfortably into the retainer(?); that had bugged me during unpacking, but as I had apparently gotten lucky and not damaged the socket pins, I moved ahead and installed. Trying to reinsert the cover/cap, which had to bow to fit between the side flanges and sprang out at the worst times, left me with five damaged pins which are impossible for me to focus upon, even with a 10X jeweler's loupe. So it appears that a $50+ bill is going to be sacrificed to the ether...I'm pretty sure that the extra warranty I bought won't cover the damaged socket.

    Before I resume the hunt for another board, I'll thank you for your interest and questions by filling in the answers:

    The GFX card is a Radeon HD4670 'Ice-Q'AGP8X, and I had planned on leaving it out as you recommended (outputs are VGA, DVI-I and HDMI - I use only the single 17" CRT VGA display)
    The Corsair DIMMs are back in their plastic boxes/carriers, so I had the Crucials ready to go;
    As I mentioned, I trust the PSU (Corsair 400W with hardwired cables everywhere - I think there's a 'CX' in the model number) because the Motherboard Monitor v5 (MBM5) dashboard always showed correct voltages;
    The GFX card, by the way, worked between freezes or bluescreen events until they got so close together that there was insufficient time to even write down the timestamps.

    One more mark of idiocy: when I opened the MB's box to ensure that everything was there, I moved the anti-static bag...and there was an honest-to-Ralph manual (after wasting so much time trying to print it!)

    Inside of 9 minutes...I'll be glad when my Library days are behind me!
     
  3. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Just found a YouTube video on fixing LGA pins...maybe there's hope for me yet - although, no time left today to watch and learn...

    Thanks, baklogic!
     
  4. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    I remember those days- I used to use a credit card to keep them aligned whilst straightening. No, you are not alone. (I am sure there are many who did, too)
    Glad to see you found the manual- Was there a cd for motherboard with it?
    Don't give upon the new motherboard ,yet. Try it when the pins are straightened, after checking with the old motherboard.
    Probably should not say it,but if it works as before, and no graphics output, without the graphics card, using on-board vga connection, then you might get away with a return , If it does not, it could still be worth a try.(keep mum, about it)
     
  5. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Affirmative; the CD, a SATA cable, the manual and...(gears grinding...) an IDE ribbon? Should have taken a longer look...

    Just checking emails, replying to one, and getting this far over here has taken more than 50 mins; rather than relate the story, I'll try to link to some of my content from when the problem was young...

    Gregg
     
  6. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

  7. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Adrenalyne's post was a good link for you, then. Using bluescreenview should give you extra help on the old motherboard- If a particular driver problem, especially if pointing to graphics, then it will be a great help.
    Hard to find, but it seems the graphics card is 1.5v- from a review, it may be that once an operating system is installed, and motherboard extras, you can apply a fix that became available to make sure the card will work in the new motherboard (if fixed) and if needed- so worth using on-board graphics first, in case - Windows 8.1 may well just allocate a driver,when you do try it.
    The review--https://dikahardika27.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/his-h467qs1gha-radeon-hd-4670-iceq-1gb-gddr3-128bit-review/
    Reviewer: GUMBO on Oct 07, 2010
    "Card Specks AGP 3.0 1.5 Volt. not listed in Product Information and it needs to be. That seems to be The only issue with the description on the website. You may have a problem with Driver instillation if so you will need the Hot Fix patch. Read the driver install info so ya get it right the first time. ATI isn’t known for writing drivers very well or so I have read elsewhere and I concur. After the drivers are installed correctly the Card works well enough......"
    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...s/32d2feea-e2a1-4dc1-a64f-e3a6a4e8e00e?auth=1
    Seems that card will need the hotfix-only shows to Windows 7,but usually what works in w7 can work in w8
    https://support.amd.com/de-de/kb-articles/Pages/CatalystAGPHotfix.aspx
     
  8. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    That's what I thought, but finding info on how-to was nil, until I came across a Windows article (maybe in the Download Center?) that said, "this article...is for programmers..." and, of course, a programmer I am not. So, on to the next dead-end...

    I copied the review's address to a new tab and wound up with, among other things, a collection of music videos *&#@%!
    The card was/is the only one-gig VRAM AGP card ever made, and 1GB at the time was the 'accepted' minimum
    for game loading and decent frame rates (w/Visual Pinball ver. 9 - now, ver. 10 is stable, and even 1.5-2.0GB is insufficient for some tables). Three or four times, I've gone driver-hunting in response to forum suggestions and come up empty, due to no WHQL signature from MS. I guess ATI/AMD saw a chance to make a few $ on the one-gig AGP niche, but didn't want to waste funds on testing a low-volume card. I tried at least two AGP Hotfixes - maybe even the 12.1 - but they didn't cut it, and I wound up re-installing the driver on the card's CD. In spite of it all, the card did reasonably well (I stayed with VP9) for over six years...and maybe more?

    Time is getting short again, and I have a few things to look up...thanks again...

    Gregg
     
  9. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    I only showed the review page, as I had the quote from there- being an old post any links may have been attacked over the years- sorry, I never meant for you to use any links from there (just let you know where I quoted from).
    Blue screen view - no need to be a programmer-Ignore that Microsoft link -simple enough tool. Just run the tool in XP system, and you will see-
    http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/bluescreenview.html
    The driver hot fix may work better in W8-might be worth a try when you get that far
    https://support.amd.com/de-de/kb-articles/Pages/CatalystAGPHotfix.aspx
    So that I know - have you managed to get xp back up, on old motherboard ?- Have you tried on-board graphics on old motherboard?
    Run Blue Screen View on old motherboard- after checking- let us know what it said.
    Have you managed to straighten the pins on the new motheboard/cpu ?
    And check that clamping feature- it should be easy to use,not as hard as you found it.
     
  10. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    New Motherboard - It may be that as you described some difficulty getting the clamp of the cpu, that it could be faulty, now.
    Look at page 13 of the manual-small lever-release, and then look at the manual for pictures
    press down and out on the hook to clear retention tab.
    Step 1-2. Rotate the load lever to fully open position at approximately 135 degrees. Step 1-3. Rotate the load plate to fully open position at approximately 100 degrees.
    Step 2. Insert the 775-LAND CPU: Step 2-1. Hold the CPU by the edges where are marked with black lines.
    Step 2-2. Orient the CPU with IHS (Integrated Heat Sink) up. Locate Pin1 and the two orientation key notches.
    Page 14- look at the manual for pictures
    For proper inserting, please ensure to match the two orientation key notches of the CPU with the two alignment keys of the socket.
    Step 2-3. Carefully place the CPU into the socket by using a purely vertical motion. Step 2-4. Verify that the CPU is within the socket and properly mated to the orient keys.
    Step 3. Remove PnP Cap (Pick and Place Cap): Use your left hand index finger and thumb to support the load plate edge, engage PnP cap with right hand thumb and peel the cap from the socket while pressing on center of PnP cap to assist in removal.
    1. It is recommended to use the cap tab to handle and avoid kicking off the PnP cap. 2. This cap must be placed if returning the motherboard for after service.
    Step 4. Close the socket: Step 4-1. Rotate the load plate onto the IHS. Step 4-2. While pressing down lightly on load plate, engage the load lever. Step 4-3. Secure load lever with load plate tab under retention tab of load lever.
     
  11. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Just going over everything, and if the pins were bent when/as you fitted the cpu,then that could have been your problem all along.
    I would make sure the cpu clamping bit is fitted back properly,and carefully, before attempting to fit the cpu- then you should be able to fit the cpu without having to press it in- it should just carefully slot home with the lightest of touches. If you ensure you do that, I would think you will be in business-j ust try the on-board graphics, one stick of ram, and nothing else- if pressing f2 gets you into bios, then you could shutdown, and try your graphics card- again, if you can get into the bios screen, you have it made.
     
  12. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    CPU went in fine, lever locked, etc, and the pins looked straight and clean. My problem was with reinstalling the cap for return shipping; it would neither fit up into the load plate nor settle down atop the socket, and bowing it to squeeze into the load plate led to its springing out and bouncing around on the pins. As far as Step 3 is concerned, the manual's photo resolution is so fuzzy (even with the loupe) that I don't see what my left thumb and index finger are supposed to be grabbing...the contours/lugs/protrusions/whatever on the cap just don't seem to fit into the socket...

    Not much time to play, the last two nights, so no progress. If I put the 661FX-M7 back in, I think I'm stuck re-using the Celeron D331 (only 2.66GHz) as the R1.1 board doesn't support dual-core CPUs. I'll research it again to make sure, but it seems I've gone down this road before.

    Using the Debug Tool: Bluescreenview was simple enough to use; I was referring to the actual Debugging Tool linked to by Adrenalyne. Bluescreenview showed around 150 events/minidumps before the file no longer had room for new entries...the neighbor I mentioned way back (posts 15 & 45) still hasn't found the time to get that new-but-unused computer to me, so I can't troubleshoot as lengthily as I'd like

    G
     
  13. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    The best CPUs I can handle with 661-R1.1 are Celeron D-355, 3.33GHz, 533MHz FSB, and Pentium 4-672, 3.8GHz, 800FSB...and that's if the comp'll avoid freezes and bluescreens long enough to do any work.

    At the risk of inflicting sheer boredom, I guess I'll try to condense the failure history (feel free to opt out) :confused::D

    Gregg
     
  14. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    No problem, I don't give up easily- shame of the time difference, as it makes it a day between posts to answer each other.
    With the old motherboard, start with the least , as I explained with the new motherboard. I saw from your previous post all the things that you tried.
    Try one of your new sticks of ram, USING ON BOARD VGA, and get into bios- without hard drive connected- just let it sit there, and see how long it will keep on without blue screening.
    If it plays up, then I would suggest that it could be the psu, or, the motherboard, as these re the two parts left - it should run more, or, less indefinitely, as I recall from my pc building days. I know you have tested the voltage on the rails, but I think psu's are quite reasonable these days-could be worth replacing- if it is as old s the pc.
    If you do try the new motherboard again, do the same with that -If you do not get into Bios, then I would suggest return new motherboard.
    With your new motherboard- if returning, leave the cap off, and just explain that it did not seem to go back in, if you are sending it back.
     
  15. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Ahhh...STAMINA!
    The PC was built Apr 14 (I think), 2008; upgraded(?) to Media Center Edition Sept '09; judged as too slow by an ungrateful step-son and given to me around N0v 30, '09. I upgraded the 2 x 256 to 2 x 1GB in mid Feb '11, but bought a cheap brand; one of the DIMMS went nuts 2 or 3 weeks later (Memtest86 turned a page half-red from errors in the hundreds of thou's) and threw the PC into an endless bootloop, cycling when the Welcome page showed. Start and restart switches had no effect, and PSU sw had to be turned off to stop the loop.

    An I.T. friend donated an un-scrambled HDD, formatted, and clean-installed HP Pro to get me up and running on about Mar 16, '11. The orig HDD went to an enclosure as backup, as it could still do everything except boot.

    Skipping a few HDD failures over the years: PC began freezing occasionally during boot requiring an increasing number of restarts as time passed; I engaged another tech's services (actually spent some money!) Jan 10, 2017, and 12 hours later he had to go home - without finding the problem. However, a new wrinkle; if boot reached "Press any key..." withOUT the install disk in its drawer, boot wouldn't proceed. Of course I don't want to boot from CD, as it would begin installing XP anew, so as long as I don't 'touch any key', the CD seems to act as a stepping stone and the bootup completes.

    But the freeze-ups still occur, and they've become more and more frequent...

    So, by Mar 1, 2017, I decided I'd spent enough, and formatted/installed without outside help. PC still suffered freezes, but was still usable/playable, although worsening. I came across the 'Uncheck Automatically Restart after System Failure' option in mid-November, found Adrenalyne's article linking to bluescreenview and was surprised to see about 20 bluescreen events. And here we are...

    ...but now, C:\WINDOWS\(system32?)\minidump has no room for new events, which occur before I can note the timestamps for the previous events --- Event Viewer likewise; so many entries that date coverage goes back only about two months.____________________________________________

    I hope there are no confusing holes in my account; the Library computer mysteriously shorted me fifty minutes of session time, and I had to reapply, type, and proofread under the gun---and I'm slow! Thanks for reading...
    Agreed (Time's up in 90 secs---thanks).

    Gregg
     
  16. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Brain searching------- Only connect psu, cpu, (and its fan) one stick of new ram, keyboard, mouse, start button, and any NECESSARYcables to motherboard only- leave dvd, other fans, and hard drive disconnected.
    When you can get your old motherboard to kick in, and get into the bios, shut down, connect your XP hard drive- NO GRAPHICS CARD, no dvd, nor extra fans.
    Then restart in safe mode (F8 minimum drivers), and see how long it will just run without shutting down, too.If it still blue screens in safe mode, keep restarting in safe mode, and right click on my computer, left click manage,click event viewer, and see if it will stay on long enough to read critical errors-note down any you can-
    If you get this far, without too many blue screens................
    Then while in XP,STAY IN SAFE MODE-WITH ON-BOARD GRAPHICS

    To clean up the event viewer, and log log, when so full-I would use the simplest way.....
    Start > All Programs > Accessories > System Tools > Disk Cleanup.
    Tick all the boxes,and let it run- It can take a lot of time. (can make it slow to start up after cleanup finishes,as it will need to re-write new).

    To interest you, only-I thought you might want a quick look at these............
    To clear the event log- https://www.microsoft.com/resources...ddocs/en-us/hc_save_log_message.mspx?mfr=true
    Dump files - i have never had to get involved with dump files, but if you are interested....
    https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/254649/overview-of-memory-dump-file-options-for-windows
    If you want to check the dump files- this link could help
    https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/315271

    I noticed this, on another thread- apparently o.k with XP too- If you do manage to get that XP running long enough to try it.
    http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/whocrashed_free_home_edition.html
     
  17. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Did just what you said (coincidentally), but stopped short of Safe Mode. Hit the switch, Display turned on, Bios came right up, itemized BIOS, CPU, IDE channels, then puzzled me;

    "CMOS checksum error - Defaults loaded
    Warning! CPU has been changed.
    Please re-enter CPU settings in the CMOS setup and remember to save before quit!"

    While the CPU was removed and the thermal paste cleaned and reapplied, it's still the same CPU (which was identified in, I assume, POST(?) ). I looked for the settings, but not many of the were selectable (fuzzed out green rather than grey). I don't precisely remember settings that I hardly ever viewed, but PC Health Status gave me:

    Shutdown Temperature Disabled
    CPU Core Voltage 1.31v
    DDR 2.60v
    Vcc 3.3v 3.31v
    Vcc 5.0v 5.05v
    Vcc +12v 12.04v
    Voltage Battery 3.00
    CPU Temperature 85-84*C Excessive, considering the diminished load?
    System Temperature 36*C
    CPU Fan Speed 2410-2445RPM
    SYS Fan Speed 0RPM
    PWR Fan Speed 0RPM Should be on with PSU? I can't stick my head under the PSU to inspect...

     
  18. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Cpu warning--When you go into the Bios, choose "load default", then press f12, and click ok. I am sure that will clear it.
    You say ---CPU Temperature 85-84*C Excessive, considering the diminished load? "
    Overheating can make a system shut down (a fail safe for the cpu) when a temperature is not set, it will get hotter than normal , before shutting down.
    Th cpu max temp-
    https://ark.intel.com/products/2711...he-2_66-GHz-533-MHz-FSB?q=Intel Celeron D 331
    • TCASE 67.7°C---------Case Temperature is the maximum temperature allowed at the processor Integrated Heat Spreader (IHS).
    Looks like the cpu heatsink/fan is not working well enough- You need to check it, and ensure it is working properly, may be worth upgrading-
    also, see if the psu will draw in air (should be able to feel it, or,carefully use a piece if thick paper to see if it will pull it in towards the psu- obviously don't leave it there too long...)
    Try with your other case fans connected- pc appears to be shutting down because of overheating - may be the cause of problems -
    You need to get it to run for long enough to see if it crashes before fitting too much load to it.
    Once it runs long enough ,without shutting down- then re attach ONE at a time, and let it run, each time, before connecting the next -you have the patience, or, else you would not have kept trying this long.
    So, do it one t a time -
    When it will keep going, as it did previously, when first trying yesterday,you could THEN put your W 8.1, on the new hard drive, to test the system, no need to get it on-line,or registered, just use the key to load it.
    Keep me posted- good luck
     
  19. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Seems to me, I used to see 3000+ RPM under gaming conditions...don't remember the temp, though. I did find a mirror that fit into my space, and all connected fans (sorry if I jumped the gun; all three fans have been connected the whole time) are turning (case, PSU and CPU). Can't read RPM for PSU or case because I can't boot beyond Setup.

    With the XP harddrive in, for some reason I no longer get to 'Disk Boot Failure'; when the 2nd half of BIOS is presented, 'Verifying DMI Pool Data' and the blinking cursor are the last things on the page for about a minute, then 'Boot from CD' appears with shutdown 20 secs later. (Also, 'Press any key to boot from CD' no longer appears.)

    Remembering the Install disk's role as stepping stone, I hooked up the CD/ROM hoping to finish the boot process, but nothing changed...

    Just realized, I no longer get the warning, 'CPU has been changed!' even though I altered nothing in Setup. Must be time to print your post, head home and experiment some more...

    Gregg
     
  20. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    As the time difference is making it difficult to reply to each other in real time, I am writing you a little book- (Joke)
    If it was mine, I was determined to keep this pc, I would replace the psu, and heatsink and fan, if fitting a new motherbord (elimination process, and cpu will not be used-you updated that -eliminates that)But it is your pigeon,and your time, and I would not spend your money for you.
    Please also note that I am only trying to act like I am there with you, and things I would try, if I was.
    If I seem to be repeating anything, plese ignore, but just remember them.
    You may have faulty sensors on the readings, except, possibly for this older cpu .
    Try to do things singly, as this is the only way you can find and eliminate the probable cause of fault(s)
    Old motherboard- if you wish to keep going on this motherboard
    First of all - Do not connect other fans, until bios page runs for at least 30 minutes without shutting down-Anything extra load may show psu fault.
    Remove cmos battery, and leave it out for 30 minutes, then replace it (resets bios, in case of corruption) There should also be a set of pins you use to do this, but don't try to hurry it- give it time- my 30 minute minimum rule.
    Did you check the date and time while in the bios ? You can check this in the bios, and temporarily rest the time and date, if necessary, whilst in the bios.
    This may help to start computer but if cmos battery is low, it will revert to older date again, on any restart.
    If correct- go back to just the psu, cpu, and its heatsink and fan, one stick of ram - try for , say 30 minutes-
    Ensure date and time are correct- if not change the cmos battery.
    if you still get into the bios screen and no shutdown, then click on f9 (save default), then F12, shutdown and if you wish, you could try 2 sticks of ram, and do the same.
    If all O.K after about 30 minutes, then, shutdown, and let it cool down for 30 mins to an hour.
    Because ,it is possible the cpu is overheating, and, if so, it will need to cool down before trying again.(overheating could have already damaged it)

    No graphics card- use on-board vga
    Disconnect dvd rom

    Then each time with a cold machine- fresh start-
    If you have the machine on for half an hour, then let it cool right down, before trying the next bits.

    Cmos battery-
    check date and time on each restart- if you are not replacing cmos battery.

    Ram
    You can try all your ram sticks,one at a time, to see if they make any difference to time machine stays on, if you wish, before going further.(Just for your personal satisfaction)

    Now,if you get that far, and the pc has cooled down, connect hard drive, and, boot up again, pressing f2 to get into the bios, check that the hard drive is recognized in the bios,
    and set the hard drive as the first boot device, then press f12, click yes, and let it reboot- remember this is from cold.

    If you get the same "veryfying boot pool data" warning, it could be the hard drive, the psu, or, an overheated cpu, or, the boot file for the XP hard drive , is corrupted.
    Remember- make sure the whole system has cooled down- go and have a coffee/(If that is what you drink.)....,and if a smoker- have one of them , too.

    Again, wait until machine is cold before this

    Hard drive
    As it is the old hard drive, you can try fixmbr, and fixboot,to try to overcome possibly damaged boot files-
    Re-connect dvd Drive
    Insert you XP CD/DVD
    Start pc- and press f2, get into bios,/boot menu, and choose dvd as first boot- the as the disc runs choose 2nd option on dvd and press the R button-in the first command window type in fixmbr , press enter button, when C:WINDOWS/ shows again, Then type in fixboot and press enter
    When the C/Windows shows again, type in EXIT,and press the enter button.
    but read this link, and note down the method- using your XP pro disc.
    https://helpdeskgeek.com/how-to/fix-mbr-xp-vista/

    You also could try your new hard drive, and put XP on it - just go into bios, make sure it recognizes it, and insert dvd- again WHEN PC IS COLD-(you can soon upgrade with your WINDOWS 8, when you change motherboards) This would eliminate the old hard drive,if it will not load.
    Just remember that you need to keep doing it all from cold, in case the cpu is the culprit, and overheats and shuts it down- if testing, -take your time, but if you drink too much, or,smoke too much, don't blame me-just enjoy that part. :p:p

    I will come back when i get my breath back and ,if you want to retry the new motherboard- follow this little book,if necessary, PRINT IT OUT BEFORE REPLYING,IN CASE YOU RUN OUT OF LIBRARY TIME, -but the cmos should not need to be tested on that.
    o_O
     
  21. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    baklogic;

    I printed your 'book' (reply #70), and will peruse it later...I usually find a time lag of 9 hours to folks in the Netherlands, Germany, and Austria, but I haven't pinned down the UK yet (Do you have multiple time zones?). I could probably stay up or get up to converse, but with no backup computer at home, the Library's operating hours determine the size of my/our window (It opens at 10AM). As a former musician, it was nothing for me to be up not with sunrise, but past it. But, alas...

    I see you mentioned incorrect sensor readings; that's one of the things I planned to research. Within seconds of power-up, System temp went from ambient 75*F/45.9*C to the afore-mentioned 85*C, then after I pulled the cooler and replaced the thermal paste again, temp stepped up to 90-89*C with the fan RPM unchanged (2410-2445). I went to sleep letting it run, and after 8 hours, the temp was the same, but RPM had stepped a few times to 2636-2678. I doubt that sensors are repairable or adjustable, or even removable from, I assume, the motherboard, but it would be nice to know what wall I'm beating my head against...

    To the research!

    Gregg
     
  22. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Old motherboard
    I am leaning towards a faulty/failing psu, as this can help create heat issues, and general instability.
    One thing I did not mention- Leads - A poor mains lead, or, IDE lead can give problems- Have you any spare ones, you can try (new ones would give a clearer picture) Again try one at a time ,(this is where patience comes in, I know)
    Well- if you left it running for 8 hours, and it never crashed- should rule out cpu, - It is difficult to say much about the motherboard in this older system , sometimes they do not have all the sensors in older boards .
    I assume you tried this with just the basics, - - a stick of ram, and without hard drive, and dvd drive connected?
    if so, the psu would appear to be working O.K, until you put more load on it. - A sign o_O
    This is where the tests of one at a time can give you clues,connecting hard drive, and starting,even if it freezes, but does not shut down, is another test - how long before it shuts down........
    Then , assuming the 30 minute rule, at least, is kept to, and it does not shut down,then
    Let it cool down, before trying to reconnect the dvd - again, if it will run, without worrying about getting in to the hard drive- Connect the dvd drive,and restart.---how long will it run, before it shuts itself down ? This could tell us if the dvd drive is causing a fault, or, the load has peaked on the psu (we all get old and tired:()

    New Motherboard

    Are you willing to try that motherboard again- with new psu ? Or, are you going to return it?
     
  23. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Again from cold-----You still have the knoppix cd ?-instead of connecting hard drive, just connect the dvd drive, and run knoppix. (it does not need a hard drive installed just to run it- by thee way Linux often uses different brousers- just use whatever one it offers to start with.
    This is another way of checking if the pc will run long enough with the present psu........................and eliminates the hard drive (even if corrupted) from the main problem list.
    Time zones -UK is Greenwich mean time.
    10 am where you are will be 6- to 8 hours behind us- (between 2, and 4 am in UK.)
    4 pm where you are will be 8- to 10 AM in UK- It depends where you are- https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
    For instance, Dallas is 6 hrs behind (If you live there, Detroit is 5 hours, San Francisco 8hrs)
    I can be on-line at 7 pm Greenwich mean time Friday - tomorrow, if you can work it out and be on-line around that time (allowing for time difference)
    Whatever you have tried,or, are trying to do, answer my last post and this one,when you get on-line.
     
  24. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Going through your 'book' in order of chapters;

    Faulty sensors - looks like most coolers designed for LGA775 are single-speed, which is from 2200 - 2500, with a third wire for speed control (sensor? in heat sink, or on mobo?) Gotta wonder, tho; how does a single-speed cooler ramp up in increments of approx. 37 - 40 RPM while the temp , which did jump from 84-85 to 89-90 the first time, remains at 89-90? Readings noted; 2410, 2445, 2481, 2518, 2556, 2596, 2678, 2721...it took nine hours to reach 2445-2481.

    CMOS Battery; back when I thought I was through with the 661FX-M7 mobo, I didn't take any special care when handling (but it seems to have avoided the killer 'spike'); before I put it back in, I checked the battery at 3.06V (post #50), and reset the date/time at first boot. It's stayed correct ever since. ...a 'set of pins' - meaning, the 'Clear CMOS' jumper? I've never played with them/it, but does it not look okay as is?

    Rotating Ram DIMMs looks interesting, but I get varying results, like the self shutdown that always followed 'Boot Disk Failure, Insert System Disk and Press enter...' has been replaced by long running times, but not 100%. Also discovered that Ctrl-Alt-Delete serves as an 'off' button - but not every time.

    Library Strikes Again Dept; I should have 41 minutes left, but 'Time Remaining' shows 13...so, I may have to suddenly depart.

    Leads; meaning, those coming from the PSU, and IDE, the 80-conductor ribbon cable?

    Correct. I did notice, though, that the Boot Disk Failure line says Insert...Disk and PRESS ENTER - I may have assumed that the disk would be detected without ENTER, so I'll check that tonight...

    Knoppix CD; now, that's interesting, too. (But, time may be short, so I want to look at your .../how-to/fix-mbr-xp-vista link, and print it for later). Thanks for the company;

    Gregg
     
  25. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Jumper for bios is item number 8 on page and explained on page 14-15 basically you move it over, and leave it for few minutes, then put it back where it was
    https://www.manualslib.com/manual/453011/Ecs-661gx-M7.html
    You may have more luck printing off of this version of the manual- but I think it downloads as a manual- so , depends if library permits.
    http://www.ecs.com.tw/ECSWebSite/Do...er_Detail.aspx?MenuID=61&LanID=9&detailid=663
    Or, try the pdf below.
    Remember, several geeks run through the problems on this older setup, and 661 motherboard, so I can help where we can, but I am mainly using it to test the parts- psu, cpu, and ram, and hard drives.
    So do everything as we have been running through, and label the parts you test , with time pc kept running. Then we know if the psu will be a problem, or, not, with the /a new motherboard.
    By all means, if you wish keep trying to get this old motherboard working, but it has taken some time for you, and you need to think about the new motherboard, or, a replacement at some point.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  26. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    The leads- Mains lead and plug, to psu -try a different one- IDE LEADS- try different ones
    "Knoppix CD; now, that's interesting, too. "
    If you get the old motherboard running from cold- You should be able to get on line,and it may be possible to come to majorgeeks with that, and you may be able download some stuff to a usb stick using Knoppex cd- (You can do that with just dvd drive connected,) But even if it only gets you on-line, may save some library visits.
    "(But, time may be short, so I want to look at your .../how-to/fix-mbr-xp-vista link, and print it for later)." Well worth a try
    From what I can tell, both your old XP hard drive, and the replacement hard drive are used drives, Or, have I misunderstood that.?
    If you run all the tests,one at a time, and note the differences on each one, you will have a good idea on which parts run longest, and which do not.
    Your motherboard manual shows a 4 point connection for the cpu fan ?
    Other sensors- If they are not showing,it may not have them integrated, or, may need connection adjusting- I cannot offer more on that , I am afraid.
    At some time,......................New Motherboard -Are you willing to try that motherboard again- with new psu ? Or, are you going to return it?
     
  27. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Good morning, baklogic;

    Or, at least here in sunny Southern California, eight hours behind...

    I forgot to mention that I've been unable to access Safe Mode; following the 2nd half of BIOS, there's a brief jet-black screen, then a grey one for a second or less, then another jet-black one before the XP-Pro logo page. The grey one is the window for hitting F8 and accessing Advanced Boot Options. One gets lulled to sleep waiting for whatever comes after "Press Any Key to Boot to CD", and then it's gone. I booted 6 times with the XP disk and thrice with Knoppix last night/this morning, and one time it made it to the Setup options window. The HDD wasn't connected yet, so I had to hit F3 and quit. With the HDD in, Setup managed to load several files, but shut down at Windows NT(?) File System. The other tries terminated somewhat earlier.

    Once, Knoppix made it to a green progress bar not quite all the way across the screen, with something said about the Hardware Extraction Layer...the other two times, it barely made it past what I guess is its BIOS.

    I won't be doing anything with the new board unless and until I get the pins straightened, and the guy in the video seemed to be using an industrial-strength magnifier the likes of which I don't have. Little tweezers, too...

    From post #68;
    There are 'Fail-safe Defaults', and 'Optimized Defaults'; I don't think it is specified just what those defaults are, so is there a preference?
    ______________________________________

    Well, I tried to be awake and alert on two hours' sleep, but I'm not sure it worked. only about 16 minutes left, so I'd better get this posted...

    Gregg
     
  28. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Fail safe defaults
     
  29. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    I am really thinking psu........
    Suggestion - would your pc bloke charge too much to try to straighten pins on new motherboard, and test to bios ? With another psu?, and one/two of your ram?
    A half decent pc /it bloke should have stuff he could use without your case.
    If not, you need to get that magnifying glass
     
  30. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Fail-safe. Thanks. (Rats! Was editing and lost my place. If something looks totally non-sequitorial later, that's the reason._

    inside 2 minutes...have a good day!

    Gregg
     
  31. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

     
    baklogic likes this.
  32. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Suggest you write out what you want t say, and the just copy the writeup when in the library- might save you tim
     
  33. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    The edit was on the post just completed, and wasn't pre-composed; I glanced up at the email tab, and saw the '1' indicating a new response that might have been from you (it was...) and the corded optical mouse pointer disappeared (actually, just jumped to another part of the screen--they do that a lot.

    Last Gasp department; I remembered that I have the original PSU in my closet; it's only an AustinDR-B300ATX, but was working when removed 7 or 8 years ago, so should handle my stripped-down rig.

    Close, but no cigar...it never turned on the display, the case LED blinked or flashed - sometimes evenly, and sometimes about a 2-second loop at 75% duty-cycle (1.5 on, 0.5 off). I checked the 12v and 5v lines at an unused molex(?) plug and they were a little low (11.76v, 4.98v) - but enough to hurt? Also, the DVD convulsed like it was trying to do something, but couldn't.

    I swapped back, and made it to the loading of 'Windows NT file system' again.
     
  34. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Well, if you did try with the psu, and no graphics card- that seems to indicate it is not the card- so, that may be worth trying in another motherboard, when you get to that.
    The spare one you tried-iffy, looking at the blinking led, and the dvd convulsing, and no display - question-It should have been tried first without dvd ,and hard drive connected.
    As for getting to Windows NT file system- Got to be the psu, I reckon-your move on that
     
  35. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Well, I already have the video card (1050T1) for my eventual ultimate* upgrade; I suppose I can find room for its PSU. There's a Microcenter about 50 minutes away, and I have a $50 gift card...

    *My ultimate is several notches below others',of course...

    G
     
  36. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Well, you have tried extremely hard-
    If I did a new build, I always started the way I explained to you - especially if trying to cannibalize from old parts.
    Must be someone capable of helping you straighten those pins on your new motherboard..... Otherwise, if you do get another- look for a later one, that you can upgrade as you wish, when pocket permits-
    If you have a x64 bit operating system, you can probably use all 4 sticks in a motherboard that has 4 slots.....You don't need an expensive setup, just one that will allow you to update.
    Just keep me posted
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  37. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Finally; Safe Mode...

    This PC had Floppy as first device, even though it's been used maybe twice, maybe eight years ago. Flipping boot device priority, I'm not sure which order the other two were in, but I moved Floppy to third, and started experimenting...Voila!
    The universe moves slowly, though, in Safe Mode, and the light blue background of the Click Your User Name page took several seconds to fill in, rather than being instantaneous, giving me the impression that the CPU is putting out at a very low rate - and sporadically. When Windows finally started, the desktop icons filled in as though bleached, then added color one by one. Frozen mouse pointer, recovered-from-critical-error dialog box, Firefox 'aboutsessionrestore' tab, 'server not found' page, empty Malwarebytes Anti-malware folder and other goodies rounded out the evening...

    Ugh...too many details.

    As I had no intention of continuing to use this mobo, I'm not excited about buying another CPU (cheap, though, if available) to fit it - although, if I can load W8.1 (32-bit) onto it, that'll be my original first-stage upgrade, being able to install the updated Players for videos, movies, etc. The switch to 64-bit CPU, PCIe mobo and video card is planned for later...

    My I.T. nephew recently took a job that bases him in North (or South) Dakota several months out of the year, so my pin-straightener is indisposed...and as one who 'never throws anything away', I'm wondering if I should buy one of those big, halo-type magnifying lamps and try it myself. While I make up my mind, enjoy your regained spare time!

    Gregg
     
  38. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    It is nice to know that you got this far.
    Now,a few majorgeeks tried to help on this , so if you would tell us
    PSU- STILL ORIGINAL, OR replaced ? If original,it still could be part of the problem...............
    Which stick(s) of ram did you use , and did they all work O.K ?
    When you got into safe mode,did you try to look i event viewer to see what crashed ?
    Windows 8.1 may/may not load on this motherboard- but let us know.
    CPU has , in the past overheated, so that might cause the "Ugh...too many details."
    Setting the boot order , was .........................................o_O
    I am sure there are some here who would like to know-
    Take your time with whatever upgrade you do- keep that little book that I wrote, and it should help.
    Good luck
     
  39. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    That was fun; login told me, incorrect password - but I knew I was right, so I re-entered...three times, I think, before noticing that the Caps Lock key was on...and what was incorrect was actually the User Name, which doesn't use all-caps...
    The current PSU is the Corsair 4oo-watter that I bought in 2011 or so...the original is the Austin DB-R300ATX that I pulled out of the closet, and gave me the convulsing DVD (which sorta sounds like it's trying to load files, a la Repair Installation, but with no display, who knows?). Since the 661FX-M7 went back in, the display has been turned on every time...
    I haven't tried rotating the DIMMs yet; having packed the Corsairs into the Crucial carriers(?), I've been using the Crucials (currently just one, to reduce overhead).
    Not yet. I don't think I'd get very far, as run times are a bit shorter on the average; maybe life at 90*C is taking a bit more of a toll? There was a stretch where I got 'Boot from CD', but not 'Press Any Key to Boot from CD' - suddenly, there it was, so I hit it and wound up with those 'details' being rendered ver-ry slo-ow-ly...

    Earlier, I tried to describe, from memory, how to reach the window for F8/Safe Mode--but I may have been incorrect--maybe next time I'll remember to write it down on something that doesn't get tossed as scrap...

    My neighbor-with-the-new-but-unused-computer says he's close to getting the time to pull it out of storage, so hopefully, I'll have an 'I-don't-need-to-use-the-library' computer soon.
    My original first stage was to put W8.1 on this PC, as my specs at least made the minimum requirements - but then the freezes and spontaneous restarts got so frequent that I felt the mobo was probably part of the problem. So, since I was changing MBs, I went with one (775i65g) that would accept a dual-core CPU. Its failure to work is the only reason the 661 is back in...and then the bent pins happened...
    but I think the 661 can run 8.1 - if I can get a cool-running single-core CPU.

    My second stage is to change to a PCIe mobo and video card (the 1050Ti) and either a Haswell or Skylake CPU, as I'm in no hurry to go with W10 and driver support with Haswell should be good for about 3 years - and about double that with Skylake (If I remember what I read all those months ago...).

    Running out of time, and my fingers are freezing (too much library air conditioning), so signing off. Will keep you informed...

    Gregg
     
    baklogic likes this.
  40. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    What the...;

    Out of about 15 boot attempts last night, only twice did I successfully enter Safe Mode, but on all tries, the mouse would be activated and freeze within from two seconds to three minutes, independent of what Windows was doing at the time. All but the last time, that is; the mouse worked for over ninety minutes, and so did Windows...when I got tired of sweeping the pointer around the screen trying to induce failure, I pulled out Event Viewer and found that the overstuffed condition had apparently been swept clean; events covered Feb. 4th through Feb. 7th, with room for more.

    I then opened C:\WINDOWS\minidump and found it INTACT, so looked up bluescreenview - and all 135 crashes, driver IDs, etc. were there.

    I tried to find a way to install antivirus without exposing myself to infection, as the Bitdefender "Security for XP and Vista"
    free 6-month trial expired in January, but my lucky mouse finally froze. Of course, I'll try again...

    If I can copy and send it off, would you want to examine my bluescreenview? I didn't get around to noting the size, and haven't sent large files before (and probably shouldn't have waited until there were 135 entries), but it would be nice if someone who knows what to do would get a look at what it logged...now, if the PC will cooperate again...
     
  41. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Well, if you can get the bluescreenview log up and post it- I suggest you start a new thread, as this one has got so long, and a new post will get you more help, and quicker.
    I think we have gone over everything we can with the other things- I suggest that you just put it as something like bluescreen help needed.
    I would give the basic bits that have been tried, and if I can , I will try to help,but others may have more ability in that area, and speedup a solution.
    It could be useful to provide a link to this post, and your previous post,so that anyone with time can browse through it, and it might give other help that we have missed along the line.
     
  42. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Near as I can figure, bluescreenview (59.5KB application) would have to be downloaded onto the technician's computer, and it would look in C:\WINDOWS\minidump for the logs. My 135-entry minidump file is 8.47MB; is that within email limits? Also, there's whether or not my PC will let me copy/extract/whatever before shutting down...

    Seems pointless to post to a new topic until I get the file sent and know what I'm going to say; but your suggestion for the title is fine with me. Thanks for the guidance, and until then...

    GSGregg out.
     
  43. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    If you can get the file to print off at home , might be quicker, then take it to the library, and upload from there, if they will allow it. If it is too large you can upload in 2 to 3 sections.
    Good luck
     
  44. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

  45. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

  46. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    I went with the Corsair 550; I was treated well by their support/warranty folks with a K70 Vengeance keyboard, and five years is better than three...

    You may have been right all along; I still get lots of freezes, but no crashes/bluescreens. I tried Repair Installations, but the closest I came was 89% of files copied to folders. If I don't boot from CD and just let Windows run on its own, the PC freezes at 'Windows is Starting' - and often sooner. I'm going to have to put this HDD in an enclosure to examine Event Viewer, bluescreenview, etc, and read off another PC (sounds like I'm back to square one).

    Last thought; CPU cooler had spontaneously broken three of its four expanding pins/anchors/mounts(?) and was hanging at an angle with almost no thermal-paste contact; processor temp now 45*C with a new CPCooler 92mm-fan model. Too bad the PC won't stay lit...

    Gregg
     
  47. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    With the new cpu cooler fan, and showing 45* C, --that is much better.
    Have you tried booting with that ? -Is that what you meant,and it still shuts down intermittently ?
    If so, it seems only to leave the psu, as you now feel the case.
    I would think when you fit the new psu, you should be able to run XP, if you wish, before trying W8.1.
    If you can get this old motherboard working, with new psu, new cpu fan, one stick ram, then you should be able to get to see event viewer on this old hard drive.
    I feel that it might not be possible to get into event viewer on an external enclosure, as I could not find a way, but someone else may know better.
    I did find this tool, but I have never tried it-and I feel it may be a little too complicated for you -also, really not necessary for you to go that far.
    http://projects.sentinelchicken.org/grokevt/
     
  48. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    If I boot from the XP CD, skipping around the 'Windows is Starting' page, I can penetrate Windows Setup - and almost got through the Repair Installation (71%, 51%, and 89%, as I mentioned). After the 89% attempt, it's as though a wall is hit at 'Setup is loading files'...and the PC freezes. Maybe a dozen repetitions, trying to make something happen, but no dice.
    I have had some extended runs, during which I accessed Control Panel, Add and Remove Hardware, Event Viewer and Device Manager, which all worked, and System Information, which did not (maybe I didn't wait long enough for a slow processor, but after two or three minutes, I figure it's a freeze and time to boot again).

    I finally gave up and loaded the W8.1 DVD with the new HDD, but of course I forgot something and got nowhere, so the rest of today will be spent looking up the clean install of 8.1...
    I did---until the ceiling of overhead dropped too low...hence the absence of long runs.
    Yeah---apparently, anything in Windows Explorer - and/or maybe, My Computer - is only available on the booting computer (did I say that properly?).__________________
    HAH! Grok (to learn, understand, et al...) Robert Heinlein lives! My favorite quote, from one of his later books:

    The characters are on a time-traveling hunting trip, and one responds to a voiced wish; "You want dinosaurs? Borroughs' Irrelevancy Gear will plop you down in the middle of a herd of feeding, fornicating flapdoodles before you can say, 'sixty-five million years' ".

    Thx; GSG
     
    baklogic likes this.
  49. baklogic

    baklogic The Tinkerer

    Something you should think about,is that with XP, I used to get prolonged freezes in those old days, and sometimes it is worth just leaving it and have a coffee, or, stronger, and wait-
    Have you tried again in safe mode ?
     
  50. GSGregg

    GSGregg Private E-2

    Wasn't something like that the reason the devs put in 'Disable Automatically Restart on System Failure'?

    Frustration took hold, and I decided to install XP onto the new HDD (fresh; not Repair...) and made it to the end of Preparing Installation ("your computer will reboot in 14 seconds...") - 'Setup will complete in approximately 39 minutes' - the progress bar for 'Installing Devices' was over halfway with the countdown at 34 minutes when the PC froze.

    That's the closest I got with the fresh install, and trying to take up where that left off (Repair the 'existing installation' ) balked at exiting BIOS...a few times, "Windows cannot start because the file Windows root\system32 \hal.dll is corrupt or missing. Please load another copy..." (or something like that).______________

    Safe Mode; several times, I got the Advanced Options black page with white text, but no light blue screen with 'Safe Mode' in each corner...when the 'picket fence' progress bar filled in, it just restarted.

    I'll keep trying and maybe get lucky, but it might be time to pursue the motherboard angle again...
     

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