The Iraqi people...

just keep on lining up to become cops and soldiers and civil servants, even though the increasingly desperate insurgents will stop at nothing to bomb and shoot them if they do.

They get more people to vote than we got here in BC during our last election, even though it could have meant a death sentence.

They want very badly what we don't even acknowledge we have most of the time.

They've got guts, and eventually they will win out. And the insurgents can kiss their *****.

You gotta love 'em.

 

Yeah, you got to feel for those who are ambushed while trying to improve the situation in their country.

 

Here here!! MA you said everything I've wanted to say to certain individuals and you said it beautifully!

 

HAHAAAHAAH so true ......

 

We went there for oil. We went there for money. Lets take a closer look.

We didn't go there for oil for us particularly, as we get most of ours from South America and Mexico. World oil stability was no doubt a factor, as the entire Mid-East would be irrelavent in world politics if they weren't sitting on a large part of the worlds oil reserves. Everything that goes on there revolves around oil. But don't trivialize oil. The world stops without it, and will NOT let that happen. Japan's attack on us at Pearl Harbor was directly triggered by our denial to them of oil resources in Indonesia IIRC that they needed for their war efforts in China. Like it or not, the world fights over critical resources. Always has. Difference today is that the world fights (when they bother) to keep oil free, rather than to conquer and steal it.

Money is even a flimsier excuse. We've spent over a hundret billion dollars over there, and will never recoup even a small percentage of that. Yes, the military supply industry has made some money, but most of the money is going into schools, power stations, hospitals, infrastructure and other mundane things. We ain't making any money over there.

What HAS our presence there accomplished? Other than the obvious benefit of ridding the world of one of it's worst and bloodiest dictators? Libya got nervous watching us and decided to come clean about their own nuclear arms program, and dismantled it & gave the IAEC control of it. Syria is pulling out of Lebanon, which they've occupied at sword-point for decades, Iran's students and younger people (who LOVE us) are getting restless over their own oppression. Egypt is getting ready to have it's first actual FREE election in decades. They've had elections, but no choices on who to vote for. Pakistan, who had been one of the largest supporters and safe-havens for terrorists are actually working with us against them. Al Queda, while not dead, is severely crippled, and there are thousands of dead terrorists that have been flocking into Iraq to fight us there.

Waste of time and money hitting Iraq? I don't think so.

 

They'd get all pissed and ask for the Statue of Liberty back not to mention with their angry french accent! Their politics (if you can even call that) or the armpit hair French women have never made much sense to me!

 

FRENCH GUARD:
Allo! Who is eet?
ARTHUR:
It is King Arthur, and these are my Knights of the Round Table. Whose castle is this?
FRENCH GUARD:
This is the castle of my master, Guy de Loimbard.
ARTHUR:
Go and tell your master that we have been charged by God with a sacred quest. If he will give us food and shelter for the night, he can join us in our quest for the Holy Grail.
FRENCH GUARD:
Well, I'll ask him, but I don't think he'll be very keen. Uh, he's already got one, you see.
ARTHUR:
What?
GALAHAD:
He says they've already got one!
ARTHUR:
Are you sure he's got one?
FRENCH GUARD:
Oh, yes. It's very nice-a. (I told him we already got one.)
FRENCH GUARDS:
[chuckling]
ARTHUR:
Well, u-- um, can we come up and have a look?
FRENCH GUARD:
Of course not! You are English types-a!
ARTHUR:
Well, what are you, then?
FRENCH GUARD:
I'm French! Why do think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king-a?!
GALAHAD:
What are you doing in England?
FRENCH GUARD:
Mind your own business!
ARTHUR:
If you will not show us the Grail, we shall take your castle by force!
FRENCH GUARD:
You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottom, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur King, you and all your silly English k-nnnnniggets. Thpppppt! Thppt! Thppt!
GALAHAD:
What a strange person.
ARTHUR:
Now look here, my good man--
FRENCH GUARD:
I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!
GALAHAD:
Is there someone else up there we could talk to?
FRENCH GUARD:
No. Now, go away, or I shall taunt you a second time-a!
[sniff]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry I had to

 

Let them have their statue back. We've got more than enough huddled masses now.

 

For sale: WWII surplus
French rifles, mint condition
dropped once, never fired

 

Bhahaha ...nice one!

 

That's one way to muzzle an opposing opinion!

What about the genocide in Rwanda that has gone unchecked and largely ignored by the U.S.? Are we too cowardly to get involved there? Not enough mass graves there to justify intervention?

Let's not forget that,during the Iran-Iraq War, the Reagan and Bush Administrations sold Saddam Hussein chemical and biological agents. Even then, Donald Rumsfeld knew that Saddam was using these chemical and biological weapons against Iranian soldiers. Nobody mentions that if Saddam were to be tried in a world court for that war crime (as well as the slaughter of the Iraqi Kurds), the US would be implicated in those crimes as well! Why else do you think Saddam is being brought to trial in Iraq rather than on the world stage?

In 1986, the U.S. sent USAF officers to Iraq to interpret satellite and aerial photos of Iran and to help plan attack in which large quantities of poison gas and chemical agents would be used.
Then, when our senate tried to pass a bill banning the export of US military technology to Iraq, Reagan killed it. It is easy to wrap oneself in the flag and look down on others with moral indignation, but we've got plenty of blood on our hands as well.

All of this info is available through the Freedom of Information Act if anybody cares to check it out.

Oh, well . . . . Let the flaming begin!

 

are you willing to enlist and go fight there for their freedom? of 35 divisions of the US Army 25 are stationed overseas in hot zones. that leave 10 division for homeland defense.

Many of US soldier has died for you right to spill this drivel. enjoy it.

@#&^%$%&*((*^%

 

There are as many mass graves in Rwanda as Iraq. Perhaps more. And the genocide is ongoing. So, to cite Iraq's mass graves as reason for intervention and to call countries that look the other way "cowardly" is to then beg the question whether we are not being cowardly by ignoring Rwanda. I noticed you did not bother to answer that.

Yeah . . . Typical. Try to shut me up when I am stating FACTS. Not drivel. Check them for yourself if you don't believe my word.

I just think it is a bit hypocrital to supply a madman chemical and biological weapons and then express self-righteous outrage when he actually uses them!! What did you think he would do with them?

 

Reminder! Certain topics such as politics and religion have a tendency to get rather heated. Please remember that everyone is free to state their opinion however personal attacks ie: name calling, etc. are not acceptable. If'n ya don't think you can state your opinion without losing it, please step back from the thread until you can collect your thoughts. Thank you!

Now carry on..

 

You want us to just leave? Yeah, that will make everything all better. Let's leave all the others countires we are in, too. If they want to kill each other, let them. Only probelm is at some point they will bring the fight to us. Maybe Iraq actually doesn't have any WMDS; but what about Iran, or North Korea. Us leaving, would only make us seem weak. What happens when Iran invades Iraq or worse yet Israel? What happens when countries let their nukes fly free. is it our probelm then.

 

I agree with AbbySue...there is no need to get heated up on these types of topics and hurt each other feeling when there are real issue (Spyware Infection!) waiting for resolution....(winking and hinting PP


PS. can we lock this thread before I get eggs and fruits tossed at me?

 

If I had an egg.......

No need to close the thread at this time. No one has 'lost it' and there is nothing wrong with a heated discussion as long as people remember that everyone is entitled to their opinion. We've had some great, mature discussion threads like this that haven't been a problem...others have...all depends on who is participating.

It's kind of a given that one of us will step in at some point and post a 'reminder' with certain topics, then we just step back and keep an eye on things so if it needs to be closed it will be.

 

Oooops.

Well, there wasn't enough politics on the board anyway.

Regarding Rwanda, if the US action in Iraq means they should have gone in and dealt with that too, what price the left's contention that the Iraq situation should have been left up to the U.N.?

Tried that, in Rwanda, and look what happened. If the events in that country showed us anything, it was that the U.N. should restrict itself to handing out blankets after earthquakes. They are useless for anything else. I would have been delighted to see the U.S. or any country help out in Rwanda. It didn't happen. Thankfully, in Iraq, the U.N. was ignored.

(an aside: Had the US gone in to Rwanda and sorted out a few Hutus with the USMC, hands up all the bleeding heart lefties who would have cried blue murder about nasty white imperialism, and the echoes of our fetid colonial past)

It's convenient to blame the US arms sales to Iraq for what happened later, and to somehow think that those sales mean that the country should just roll over and play dead now. Well, the US weren't the only ones. Why do you think France and Germany were so against an invasion? Oh right, I forgot about the massive corruption surrounding the oil for food scandal. That too I guess.

 

The first post was about the courage of the Iraqis. Nobody can dispute the sheer guts it takes to get in a line where you know you're a target, and you have no protection. I know several people who don't know where I live; they will not come to my part of town, because it's "too dangerous". That happens everywhere in this country (United States). Yet these people are getting blown to bits, have nowhere to hide- and they're lining up. Mr. Pewty is right- gotta admire that kind of willpower.

 

This is true. I agree that these issues are complex and far reaching and cannot be boiled down to a simple "This is evil and the US must step in!" type of argument. We should not justify the invasion of Iraq on those terms. Especially as a fall-back after no WMDs.

Hindsight is easily abused and while I am very disappointed in our intelligence failings, I have to take the administration at its word that they did the best they could with the cards they were dealt.
Even when it turns out the UN inspectors were correct that Saddam was a toothless lion playing a game of "Texas Hold'em" - Bluffing his neighbors with non-existent weapons so that they would not invade Iraq. Unfortunately, the rest of the world fell for that bluff - some countries more eagerly than others.

I do not "blame" the U.S. for what happened later. However, we did turn a blind eye to what was happening at that time. Just as France and Germany put their own interests first in this case, the US did then when it was vital to us that Iran not control Iraq and beyond! We knew darn well who and what Saddam was when he was gassing Iranian soldiers and we went along with it because our interests were at stake. What amazes me is that the U.S. continued to sell Iraq chemical and biological agents up to 1992.

I appreciate the fact that you took the time to make well-reasoned and thought-provoking points that deserve consideration and respect. You have mine - though I am not a "bleeding heart lefty!"

 

MrPewty covered Rwanda pretty well. One more important point about Rwanda, and about Sudan today: The only way to CURE the problem is to totally destroy the government in power that sanctions it, and kill the troops that are intent on carrying it out. Which we did in Iraq and for which we're vilified in most of the world. There's a stiff limit to how much of that we CAN do, and a more severe limit to how much of that we're willing to do. The cost is high, both to us and to the country in question. And we get no thanks for doing it. As it has been in Iraq. We can't cure all the world's ills, and the country's self-interest has to come into play as to where we're willing to do it. As I noted in my first post, Iraq, and Afghanistan, have had quite a few positive repurcussions in the region. Sudan would not. I'd like to see us fix the problem in Sudan, but NOBODY that I've heard talking about it has discussed what would actually be necessary to fix it. Just protecting the current crop of refugees would do little. That mess has been going on for a decade, and would resume whenever we left.

 

Rwanda and Iraq are two different situations. I don't think the U.S. would have gone into Iraq if it wasn't for the WMD concern, unless Bush wanted to atone for the stupidity of his father leaving Saddam in power after driving the Iraqis out of Kuwait. It certainly had nothing to do with the plight of the people over there. The U.S. didn't go to war in Europe (WWII) to save the people there, it was to stop the Axis before they got their hands on the British naval fleet and set sail for North America. As it was, had Britain not been an island they likely would have been too late.

 

Certainly was one reason. Look what we did to the French fleet....

Mind you, there was a plan in place to sail the fleet to Canada if it became necessary.

 

I didn't mean you specifically.

It's true though. Look at the pathetic way the west is protesting Mugabe's excesses

 

G.T., I would just love to have your gift of reasoning. I do not think I could put it any better. The only thing I would add is the fact that Iran is squarely on the hot seat. Their choice. I am not a war monger and as the saying goes" the last one who wants to fight is the soldier' but if they balk and become unreasonable it could be our next 'issue'.

 

Indeed. If we can't convince them to abandon it and refuse to do anything about it, Israel will likely take out their nuclear reactor, as they did Iraq's many years ago. First order of nuclear business for Iran would be to obliterate Israel, and as small as Israel is, one would do it. Israel can't affort to sit on their hands and hope it goes away.

Both Iraq and Iran are literally floating on oil and natural gas. Natural gas is virtually FREE once they pipe it. So why do they need expensive nuclear reactors, other than breeding nuclear weapons materials? They don't.

 

I find it ironic that we supposedly are there to route out Islamic Fundamentalists, but then the Iraqis freely elect a religious gov't.

 

exactly, before the war Iraqi oil was in Euros, now it is in American dollars. Hmmm...

of course we aren't. Bush's friend *are*, Halliburton for one.

 

Of course. We're giving them the dollars. Before the war, Germany and France were trading them Euros in the Oil-For-Food scandal. Hmmm....

Haliburton is a government contractor, one of several that submit proposals and get pre-approved for large overseas government contracts. Pre-approval is necessary for things to get done quickly since the approval processes are slow and tedious. Not all that many qualify. Haliburton was a large contactor all through the Clinton years too. Did that make them "friends" of Bubba too? Yeah, Cheney worked for Haliburton. And lots of ex-Clinton administration personnel currently work for large corporations that deal heavily with Washington. The movement between government and corporate offices in Washington is a very old tradition, practiced by all sides. Hiring insiders that have personal contacts in government is good business, practiced by all, and meaningless overall. Who do you suggest we hire to do all the heavy work being done over there... the French?

 

I also find interesting that halliburton is an *oil* company ... hmmm ... (on a side, if you think I'm a Clintonian you're in for a suprise)

and my first comment had nothing to do with giving iraqis anything, it has to do with the money backing the oil. Read this article: http://www.feasta.org/documents/papers/oil1.htm ... you might learn something

 

I lost interest at "American hegemony".

Here's the history of Haliburton. Not a "friendly" article. Pick the facts out of the editorializing. Note that they've been involved with Washington since shortly after Pearl Harbor. You're welcome to have a problem with them (a lot of people do), but this is neither a recent problem nor specifically Bush's problem. It a very long running Washington problem. Blame it on Franklin Roosevelt. His administration was the first one to give them contracts.

http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/profiles/haliburton/haliburton.htm

 

Well said MA. We, the people, are at the mercy of the media for our "real" information. IMHO, all they want is to sell papers and get ratings. At the final curtain, there are very few who know all of the true facts, and they must make decisions often that are very unpopular based on information that they cannot divulge. I am not happy that we are in Iraq, but we are. GWB is the prez and he needs our support as well as the troops that are there. One statement earlier hit home though. We can fight over there, or we can wait and eventually they will bring the fight to us. I just hope that in the end positive goals are achieved. In a nutshell, I think the world sucks right now. I'm very glad that I am not young and that I have had the priviledge to live in the period of history that I have. Our troops are fighting so that years from now some ol' fart like me can write the same words.

 

Hope all goes well for him and that he returns to you and his family safe and sound. He is doing his country proud