Vinyl to Digital - Better to use turntable w/pre-amp inside or separate?

Hi,
I am shopping for a turntable that I can connect to my computer so that I can rip songs from my albums onto my hard drive. I'm also wanting to get software that I can use to eliminate pops, etc. My question is: What will give me better quality and control - a USB turntable with a pre-amp inside of it, or a turntable connected to an independent pre-amp? Also, is it better to use a USB connection or an RCA plug connection? (my computer does not have an RCA plug outlet - I would have to buy that extra). I have found differing views in my research, and thought I would come here to see what my fellow geeks think or have had experience with. Some extra specs I would like to have with the turntable are: Speakers included (inside or out); to be automatic; to have a remote (not absolutely necessary); solid - no plastic. I've looked through about 20 so far and am still looking and reading reviews.
Can anyone help me narrow this down? If I know which setup is best, I can eliminate looking at the others.:confused
Thanks in advance!

 

That is not a legitimate question. That's like asking what is the better vehicle, a car or a truck? Without knowing any of the critical specifications of the car or the truck, the quality of the manufacturing, or if entry-level (cheap) or top-of-the-line (expensive) models, we have no way of answering.

Same thing with your question. Without knowing any of the specifications (S/N ratio, distortion levels, wow and flutter, etc.) of the electronics or the turntables, there's is no way of telling which will provide better fidelity in the end.

I also note that much depends on the quality of the cartridge (needle assembly), which again we know nothing about.

 

I think asking if it's better to have a pre-amp included inside the turntable or for the turntable to be attached to a pre-amp separately for the purpose of attaching it to my computer in order to digitize my albums is a legitimate question. My adding that I wanted good quality and control refers to that question - Will I get better quality and control if the pre-amp is included or if I attach one separately? As far as the specifications for the turntable or the pre-amp (if it's better to go separate), I can handle that part on my own. It is not necessary for you to have that information in order to answer my straightforward question. Maybe my original post was too confusing or wordy for you to understand the essence of my question.

 

I've made a decision on this. How can I delete my post?

 

You don't delete your posts. Forum are "open" discussions so everyone can learn.

I understand your question perfectly. Audiophile electronics was my first love - long before computers and I've been working with computers since the mid 70s.

It is you who doesn't understand my answer so I apologize for not being clearer.

Legitimate may not have been the best choice of words. It is not a valid or "straightforward" question! And the reason why is simple and straightforward: Quality is not determined by the location of the pre-amp! Quality is determined by the design/engineering of the pre-amp, the quality of the parts used in the pre-amp, and the construction. Furthermore, the design and quality of parts and construction of the turntable, tonearm, and cartridge, even cabling all contribute significantly to quality of the audio reproduction as well.

Therefore, it VERY MUCH is important we know the specifications. A quality external pre-amp will likely sound better than an entry-level internal pre-amp. And conversely, a quality internal will likely sound better than an entry-level external.

This is why I said above, what is the better vehicle, a car or a truck? That is not a valid question because we don't know the quality of either. A quality car is better than a cheap truck and a quality truck is better than a cheap car.

I hope that is more clear now. What did you decide?

 

I'm interested in your decision. When the Ion turntables came out they were very well received. I'm curious in your research does the Ion allow you to save the music files at different bitrates or formats other than Mp3?

I have ripped a few songs manually by hooking up receiver and turntable and using Audacity but it is cumbersome if you were to do it for an entire collection. And without an RCA connection I would think the quality would suffer. What did you decide?

 

Maybe I should've said that we should assume the turntable is of high quality, and that the pre-amp would also be of high quality (or the turntable with a pre-amp inside) - that we should assume that all things are equal across the board in quality. I understand perfectly that if you have a lower end turntable and pre-amp and a higher end turntable with a pre-amp inside to compare - that of course the turntable with the pre-amp inside would be the way to go, and vice-versa. I thought it was obvious that I didn't want the cheap car or truck when I stated that I wanted good quality and control. I'm not shopping for cheap versus quality - that has nothing to do with my question. Again, lets assume all hardware involved is of the same quality across the board.

 

Well, that's another point and again the quality of the output of choice is dependent on the quality of the design, parts and construction - of everything up to and including those connections.

Also, RCA outputs are analog, USB are digital. Vinyl is analog. The sound out the speakers is analog. So somewhere along the line, analog to digital conversion must take place and there are different quality of those devices too. There are top quality digital turntables, and there are cheap ones too.

 

In my research I found that ION wasn't a very good choice. If I remember right, they all have ceramic cartridges. I also stayed away from anything that had plastic platters. What I found, and ultimately bought was the Audio-Technica AT-LP2Da. It had the best quality in my price range. Actually it rated higher than some more expensive ones. I read a lot of reviews and kept coming back to it for its features and quality.

 

No it is not obvious. Everyone wants quality and control but that does not mean their budget will allow the best. You did not state your budget. You can get turntables for less than $100 or more than $1000. If your budget allows for high-end, then again, and to answer your question, the quality of the pre-amp is not determined by its location.

 

I just wanted to acknowledge that I am not an audiophile of your caliber - I just know that I can't tolerate bad quality audio. I do have a pretty good ear for that, and have done some tweaking and tinkering at times to get the sound that I want. I think the Audio-Technica AT-LP2Da is a good choice for me at the level I'm at.

 

Thanks for the reply. I'll keep the Audio Technica brand in mind. I hadn't even thought about things like some units using a plastic platter...yuck!

I'm not ready to commit the time to encoding yet but I appreciate hearing why you eliminated certain units.

 

The Audio-Technica AT-LP2Da is a nice turntable that has a phono pre-amp that can be switched in or out of the circuit. Since that would not be considered a high-end turntable, a high-end external preamp (or one built into a quality receiver) will provide better specifications than the one included with the turntable. However, as noted above, the turntable itself, as well as the tonearm and the cartridge all factor into the final sound quality so using a high-end external pre-amp with a near entry-level turntable may be a waste of money.

In any case, you must use a phono pre-amp as that is the only way to get the necessary RIAA equalization required to compensate for the response curves of ALL phono cartridges. My advice is to try it both ways. Use your receiver's phono pre-amp and see (or hear) how it sounds. Then use the turntable's pre-amp and connect to the line-in of the receiver and see (or hear) if it sounds better, or worse. If you don't want to use your receiver in the middle, between the turntable and the computer, you have to use the internal phono pre-amp.

 

I didn't want to know if the location of the pre-amp determined its quality. I wanted to know if the location of the pre-amp determined the quality of the ultimate sound I would get once I transferred the music onto my hard disk. I understand that a high end turntable attached to a high end pre-amp will blow away the turntable with the pre-amp inside if it is of lower quality and vice-versa. Actually, in my research, I read where the 2-step process was better, but that was a selling point over at DAK's website on a system they are selling. I don't know if it is actually true or not, which is why I posted this thread in the first place. You're right - I should've stated my price range. All the 2-step setups were way more expensive than I could afford.

 

I just got a call from the place I ordered the turntable from, and they don't have that model after all, so the order is canceled. So, before I order it from somewhere else, can you tell me what you think is a good choice with the following in mind:

• I don't have a receiver that is worth using - it's very old.
• I'm only interested in a turntable to use with my computer at this point (for transferring my vinyl to digital.)
• I don't want to spend more than $150

 

No. Again, the location has nothing to do with it. To answer your question more precisely, the location of the pre-amp does not determine the quality (fidelity) of the sound.

Not is better - can be better. This is the same old argument for "separates" or "integrated". The purists out there would insist that separate amplifiers, tuner, and preamplifier are "better" than integrating them all into a single stereo or home threater "receiver". And in theory and on paper they are right. Whether your ears can hear the difference from your speakers is another story.

And note the 2-step process happens regardless. As noted, phono cartridges do not produce nice flat frequency responses. It is the phono pre-amp responsibilty to provide the necessary industry standard RIAA Equilization. Therefore, for every turntable, there is a phono preamp somewhere in the circuit between the cartridge and the electronics that drive the speakers.

I noticed it was a discontinued model. So if your receiver is not going to be used, it seems to me you have little choice but to buy a turntable with a phono pre-amp built in. Otherwise, to get a turntable AND an a decent quality external phono pre-amp, your budget will be busted in no time.

I am not familiar with the offerings today in that price range, but looking at Newegg, it looks like this Sony will meet your needs and budget.

 

Have to go right now - will check on that when I get back - Thanks!
PS - I may go higher than $150 if I absolutely have to

 

roflmao That's the way it has always been with electronics technologies, especially those involving home entertainment equipment - if you are an enthusiast! That's the catch - what you really want is just a little bit more. It it not likely you can afford the best. I can't come close. You have to be a millionaire many times over to own the best - such as the $250,000 Goldmund Reference II Turntable ($12,000 more for a tonearm - without a cartridge).

Fortunately there are many turntables to choose from at any budget level - starting from less than $100 to beyond ridiculous. And in most cases, you do get more (better) if you spend more. So the trick is to set and stick to a budget, then buy the best in your budget level.

I will say this, if the albums have been properly cared for and played only with quality equipment (that is, they are not scratched, dirty or worn out), then they should still sound great. Regardless your starting point, spending more almost always results in better quality reproduction. And considering you are doing this for prosperity, I would assume, you want the best ear candy you can afford now so you can enjoy (and not regret) it for the rest of your life. Just my 2 1/2 cents on that.

 

Hi there! I'm back on this, in a roundabout way...
I found a Kenwood double cassette deck (103CT), in perfect condition, at a pawn shop for $15! I later saw them for about that online too. Anyway, I started recording my own cassettes back in the 70's and had a decent double deck to use back then, but didn't have a receiver, turntable or speakers to match the quality of the deck. In the late 80's I sold what I had and haven't done any recording since then (wandered about for a while). The thing is - I still have all of my cassettes (many are unfinished) and seeing this deck has re-sparked my love of creating my own tapes again. That's the fun part - later I will transfer the recordings onto my computer (my uncle happens to have the equipment to do this with). SO, now I'm thinking I want to match my deck with a Kenwood receiver, speakers (don't need a "Big" sound, just "clear". I've never been one for mega bass either), and turntable (I still want to record my albums, although now I can record them onto tapes, then transfer the music from the tapes to the computer). I've decided to go the "used" route now and have started watching Ebay listings. I just saw a receiver for $100 if I "buy it now". Would you mind looking at it http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290399232184&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
and advising me if it would be a good one or not for my purposes? I'm unsure because it has those preset sounds: Arena • Disco • Jazz • Stadium • Theater
I never cared for those, preferring to adjust bass and treble manually. Am I being too anal about that? Anyway, it is a Kenwood VR 707. If I do decide I still would like to be able to record albums directly into my computer, does this model qualify as a decent amplifier or pre-amp (are amps and pre-amps the same thing?) Thanks for your input!

 

I probably would not buy "old" used electronics unless I needed that technology and it was not available today. And I would not do it unless I could test it first. Also, I don't see where that Kenwood has a phono input so you would still need a turntable that has "line level" outs (not common) or an external phono amplifier to sit between the turntable and receiver, or between the turntable and the line-in of your sound card.

As for your tapes - even though my ears are pushing 60 years old, I know I would not be happy with the sound from decades old tapes. The hiss would be unbearable for me, not to mention the high frequencies would be very lacking. One problem with all tape media is "bleed through" where the magnetically aligned particles (the recorded audio) from one layer of tape impress their patterns onto the adjacent layer of tape. This, in effect, muffles the recorded audio on both layers. The problem is worse for tapes that have not been played for long periods of time. And I note that time itself degrades the quality of the recordings on tape, even if bleed through is not a factor.

Going from record to tape to computer will work, but each step along the way will add noise and degrade the audio quality.

If me, I would concentrate on going directly from phono to digital - or as direct as you can without going through tape. Once you have all your tunes in your computer's media player, then you can burn your own CDs, instead of tapes which have a tendency to jam, add hiss, and degrade with every play.

 

Hi Kathy,

Dig has got it right all the way. One thing wasn't mentioned. Tape with Dolby work great. No hiss. Also work well with programs that divide the songs for you.

Good Luck, Jim

 

Not true. Not as much hiss, but there is still hiss, and more is added with each recording. Whereas if going from LP straight to digital, no tape hiss is added.

 

I've decided to go ahead and buy a regular turntable. I bought a Pioneer PL570. I also got a Kenwood KR-V6010 receiver - both work perfectly even though I bought them used. I have new Kenwood speakers on the way. All that with my Kenwood 103CT cassette deck makes my stereo system complete. I did also buy a pre-amp, but not sure if I really need that in addition to the receiver for recording to computer.
Kathy

 

Well according the manual for your receiver, it has a built in phono preamp.

 

Thanks Digerati. I have so much to learn! I've never had a first-rate stereo system before. "First-rate" to me anyway. It's going to be a real treat for me to make tapes again using what I have now. I was blown away with the power of this receiver - I put it up only a quarter of the way, and that was plenty loud. Halfway would blow out my apartment block! :-D

 

Well, 90 watts/channel is nothing to sneeze at, but what you are seeing is probably more a sign of efficient speakers than power.

 

Hi Dig,

What I was refering to was crap in the gap. Dolby definitely helps that.

Jim

 

Definitely!

 

I don't even have it hooked up to regular speakers yet - I'm using my desktop speakers plugged into the headphone jack right now! They are good desktop speakers. Of course, "loud" for me is different than it used to be. I don't have to have it jacked up "all the way" anymore, (even then it wasn't loud enough). My mantra used to be: "Turn it up!" Now I can't stand it when even a passing car has enough bass to shake my walls, but then again, I never was one for wall-shaking bass. I like crisp, clean sound, but never tinny. That's why equalizers are so much fun.
My cassette deck has a Dolby HX Pro circuit and I can choose Dolby B or C.