What do you all think of the Hydrogen genarators for cars?

Just wanting to know what you all think of them. After a few months of research online. I was able to design and make one for my truck. Has made a major difference on gas milage.

 

Could you into a little more detail please I'm fascinated Have you created a hydrogen generation device? If so how are you using the hydrogen to power an internal combustion engine or are you using a hydrogen cell\electric motor combo?

Hydrogen generation is easy but you always get out less energy than you put in to release the hydrogen,hydrogen isn't a very good storage medium for energy because it doesn't compress to a liquid at room temperature and normal gas pressure meaning the hydrogen tank has to be large,it also has to be high pressure which along with the size of the tank makes it rather dangerous in an accident or fire,it does burn cleanly though.

Personally I think battery technology will continue to evolve making hydrogen redundant,especially now so many car companies are investing billions into battery research for hybrid cars.

 

If it's anything like this then it sucks!!! roflmao You can't generate your own gas of any appreciable quantity ecomically period. I don't know where the Germans were going when they started building hybrid fuel burning cars. It's a waste of energy.

 

REALLY, Then explain why im getting better gas milage with the genarator hooked to my vehicle.

 

I obviously don't know. Perhaps you don't peel out at every light anymore, or you tuned up the car perhaps? As Rikky said, it's a loss in energy to go from gas to electric to Hydrogen and then burn it. The conversion process itself takes energy to go from one form to another. If you live in an urban area the electric hybrid is the way to go. Then you can peel out and still recover some energy from regenerative braking instead of wasting it as heat on your brake pads.

BTW, Mythbusters tried some of these 'kits' and found no appreciable gas formation. If you can find that episode, it's illuminating.

 

Come on Dew what have you built how does it work?

I just want to talk about the science,I thought you did?

 

So was I, thats why I researched it. this is a gasoline engine. you use electrolisis to seperate the water. have vacum lines running to manafold vacum while it is idleing and to the air flow inlet while your driving. has to have a breather valve on the generator so it can remove the gas and burn it.
it took me 3 trys to get it right. driving 26 miles used to take about a 8th of a tank. after I put it on gas gauge only moved the width of the needle distance. big improvement.

 

Sorry for the sarcasm Dew but I do echo Rikky's curiousness in the matter.

 

Ive seen that episode. I agree with you, most of the kits that are sold are omly designed to take your money. thats why I did my reasearch on them.

 

there is no storage, it is an on demand system, makes the gas and instantly goes to the engine.

 

I did reply, its an on demand system, no storage.

 

Here's the problem with that system Dew,it violates one of the laws of the universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

To convert water into hydrogen you have to use energy in the form of electricity from your car alternator,this in turn slows your engine down meaning you have to press the gas pedal harder using more fuel.

The hydrogen you create in your electrolysis process CANNOT contain more energy than the gas you used to create the hydrogen,the hydrogen does contain potential energy as its a very reactive gas and you can easily release that energy by combining it with oxygen in your engine.

This system is the equivalent of connecting your battery terminals straight to your alternator to turn your engine,it doesn't make sense,its perpetual motion it wouldn't work,the reason hydrogen appears to bypass this is it adds one more step to this process confusing the energy equation.

So why are you getting better gas mileage? You must have made a mistake in your measuring.

EDIT I'll try and find a better explanation than mine.

 

hey are you guys still there? was trying to explain what I built and how it works.

 

its not hooked to the alternator I can turn it on with out the engine running. from what your saying every time you turn on the radio you lose gas milage.

 

Because your using the charge from your battery to release the hydrogen from the water,your battery will drain flat so when your start your car again your battery will have to charge up meaning your engine will work harder and you'll use more fuel there's no free lunch.

And your exactly right when you turn on your radio you lose gas mileage,that's exactly what I'm saying where does the electricity come from for your radio?Your battery? No, it comes from your alternator which is turned by your engine,all your battery does is store the energy from your alternator it isn't a source of power.

 

ok, im using 12 volts of electricity from the battery to create the gas. it is mixing with the air and gas mixture in the carb creating more energy from the engine. thus better gas milage. so how can that not work?

 

Refer to my previous post concerning the battery needing to be charged from the alternator,when your battery has used all its energy creating the hydrogen for you and needs charging the energy you have gained from burning the hydrogen will have to be put back into the battery,meaning your alternator will have to work harder to charge the battery meaning you'll use more fuel.

 

ok, I understand what you saying. but the alternator only puts out a set amount of electricity. It cannot put out any more or less than what the regulator is set to allow.Every car made, is set up to produce more electricity than it needs to run every electical devise installed on them. and if you exceed what it can produce by having to many electrical devises. then the battery will fail. Have you ever seen those car shows with the super sound systems in them? they have replaced there stock altenator with a high output one. the set up they have works the way you are saying. As long as I dont exceed the output of the stock alternator, my system works. I have not even come close to what my altenator can produce.

 

ok Rikky, way back when cars had generators on them not altenators. what you are saying would be true. with a generator on your car the more electricity you used the harder the engine worked to turn the generator to keep up with the electrical demand.
altenators do not work like that. they produce a set amount of electricity whether you have all electrical devises turned on or off. If you were to take the regulator off of your alternator. it would be similar to a electrical generator, but it would produce to much electricity for your battery to hold, and would fry the electrical system on the vehicle.

 

Well no the only difference between alternators and generators is generators are direct current and alternators alternating current.Your description of how an alternator works is wrong,an alternator produces AC its then turned into DC using a diode rectifier,the DC is then controlled by a voltage regulator to keep the alternator at 12V that's the only regulation.

Its the current not the voltage that isn't set,the more devices you have connected to your alternator the more current being drawn by the devices and the harder the alternator is to turn and hence the more fuel you use,there is no set output other than the voltage,they work just like a battery you can draw as little or as much current as you wish but the side effect is the battery drains faster or the alternator becomes harder to turn.

ATM you think your alternator has a surplus of power that your car isn't using,energy just going to waste,so you've tapped into that energy so it isn't wasted but that's not how alternators OR generators work.

Think of it this way why would car designers make the alternators produce excess power ALL THE TIME lowering the efficiency of the engine? They wouldn't and more importantly where would that energy go when its not being used to charge the battery?

Whenever scientists think they are getting energy form somewhere for nothing they try to find out what's wrong because it violates the laws of the universe so there must be something wrong,the energy equation must always balance,what you have done wrong is 'assume' there is an excess of free power being generated by your alternator but there isn't,that's why you think your getting 'free energy' energy for nothing.

http://www.mythbusters.com/the-myth-of-the-waterfueled-car.html

 

ok, what ever, you keep quoting mythbusters. those 2 idoits have been proven wrong more than once. ok say your correct. then you should call up
Wyotech and Lincoln tech and all the other places that teach mechanics
and let them know that thier electrical instructors are teaching every one
wrong when it comes to how alternators work.

Now lets test your theory, fill your gas tank, turn on every electrical device
it has including the head lights and air conditioning. drive 10 miles fill it back up, check your gas miliage. now turn every thing back off ecept the air conditioning. drive another 10 miles and fill up again, check your gas milage
again. it will be the same or within a few tens of a mile.

It has been dyno proven that the air conditioning pump will pull roughly 25 horse power away from the engine. the alternator pulls roughly 5 horse power away. the water pump and power steering pump and when it also pulled the fan pulled away another 25 horse power from the engine. with the serpinetine belt this might be a little less.

 

I'm trying to help you:confused I've actually asked other members to go easy on you and not poke fun because to us who know a little about science its laughable what your are attempting or the results you claim to have witnessed.

The link I posted is not affiliated with mythbusters the show its just a website haven't quoted them once for the record.

I want to go into detail about how alternator works,magnetic field effect,electrical inductance,alternator field currents,electron spin but I feel I'd just be wasting my time.

But! I have FINALLY found a link that explains it all without having to churn out a physics or electronics 101.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1901/does-using-your-car-radio-reduce-your-gas-mileage

Again I'm trying to help you,I am your friend,I'm not a kid on youtube tryna win a who knows most argument.

 

Do you trust wikipedia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_automobiles

 

Ya, I remember when I used to drive , car would be idling in the driveway and I'd turn on the high beams and immediately see the revs go down(back in the 80's with a 1.6L 4 banger, no electronics).

I was quite surprised to just learn that an alternator is so inefficient! :eek If I was going to make hydrogen then I'd rather use solar cells, expensive to buy but renewable energy for at least the next 20 years.

The OP mentioned dyno tests, now this would be the gold standard of tests. The problem is in finding an objective site that one could trust. I'll start by checking those linked ones first.

 

Hmm, so which dew designs do you work for? I know, off topic.

 

DEW Designs is my old home improvements company. I shut it down when I moved.

The OP?

 

Rikky,
I asked for opinions. Not know it all science geeks telling me im F in stupid.
I recieved an Email about 6 months ago trying to get me to by this kit.
It peaked my curiosity, so with out spending alot of money on this.I went and researched it online. found all types of H.G. one guy has even made a cutting tourch out of one. I got enough info to figure out how to make one to install on my truck just to see if it really improves gas milage like they claim.It might be putting a bigger load on the alternator to make it work.It cant be a bigger load than the air conditioning compressor used to have, that is not working and has no belt on it now. I dont care if you all think its a big joke, Im used to people telling me thats impossable it cant be done. Until I try it my self. sometimes there right sometimes there wrong. Here is a nother big laugh for you and all your buddies. It actually has improved my gas milage, not like they claimed it would, but a little improvement. About 6 miles to the gallon. I have had it on my truck for about 2 weeks now.

So go ahead laugh it up, poke fun, tell me I done something wrong. I dont care. This is the results I got from my little experiment with the Hydrogen Generator installed on my truck.

 

Dew,sigh! I think its awesome 'and not in a patronising way' you've built that contraption on your truck its the kind of stuff I build all the time,no one is laughing behind your back.

These threads always end like this,I thought if I rationally tried to explain where you were going wrong without being a jerk or making fun of you it would be different but its seems its backfired and I've come across as patronising.

Your obviously not ready to accept you could be wrong,the dream of cheap,clean,free energy can be worse than gold.

 

Alternators have the advantage in that they work at varying speeds and are cheap to produce,its easy to see where that wasted energy goes though,in power plant generator turbines that spin at a constant speed and use permanent magnets these are 98% efficient only wasting energy through air friction and bearing friction.

Alternators don't have fixed magnets they use two coils of wire that spin past each other,for an alternator to work surprisingly it has to be connected to a battery,this initial current what's known as the field voltage and its powering these coils instead of using fixed magnets that causes the loss in efficiency as all electromagnets emit heat as a by product due to resistance in the wire.

So if say you wanted an efficient set up at home say you have a wind turbine or are lucky enough to have water fall at the end of your garden your better off using a generator with fixed magnets.

 

I've been reading up on the water fuelled car myths out of interest and I've found a lot of very interesting material so I've posted it here for anyone else who like me is interested in this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car

If your still reading this thread Dew here are the reasons why the water or hydrogen enhanced engines have persisted and why you received an email,it's all about business fraud.

 

OMG!!!!! wow rikky I never said I coundnt be wrong. I said this was an experiment to see if it would actually work. Now go back to the begining of the post and read what I wrote to auggie about most of those kits.


Now for the update on my experiment. before putting this thing on vehicle. it averaged about 18 miles per gallon. it is now getting over 35 miles per gallon.
let me know if im doing this wrong, amount of miles driven divided by # of gallons used.

( just to let you know it is a 85 toyota 4x4 4 cyl 5 speed with 33 inch tires. yes it is a clunker.) "note to auggie" kinda hard to do burn outs at take off.

 

Wow your interested in the subject and reading up on it. Sounds like me 6 months ago. The difference here is I dont care what the experts say, some of them say it works, some of them say its impossable cant be done.
I guess im one of those that say ok lets see for my self. lets build this thing
and put it on and see what happens. Well for right now it is working. Who is to say what will happen down the road. will it stop working? Will it cause other engine problems? Will it cause the engine to completely stop running? Dont know the answers to those questions yet. will have to wait and see.

Heres a thought, while your still interested try doing what I did. build one, put it on your vehicle and see what happens. maybe it will work for you and maybe it wont. Whats the harm in trying?

not dreaming about cheap clean free energy. ok So I was taught wrong at Lincoln tech about how alternators work.
No biggie, learned something new, aint that what were supposed to do, learn from our mistakes?

 

Hello, anybody out there? whats with the silence? Dont tell me you ran out of Zingers for me Rikky...........just joking. roflmao

 

Halo, here are some pics, one of the truck just to prove its a clunker.
2nd one is of the home made generator. did not use a kit.
3rd is the vacum hoses one goes to manafold vacum, the other goes to air inlet for carb.
Referenced a few of the kits and other H G sites. Learning what I could to make this my self. I dont have the original email with the link that got me started.
If you need more info I will tell you what I did to make it.

 

Rikky, Here is some more info for you on how it gets better gas milage.

Hydrogen generators for cars work by running electricity through water and then collecting the released hydrogen and oxygen gas . Then, it feeds this gas into the engine via the air intake, thus allowing you to save on fuel expenditure. The laws of thermodynamic state that any system is inherently inefficient and therefore the amount of energy derived from the oxygen and hydrogen gas has to be less than the amount of energy expended to create it. The secret lies in the fact that the increased fuel efficiency enjoyed by the user of an on board hydrogen generator is due to the presence of hydrogen or oxygen gas itself, rather it is from allowing the engine to run at a more optimum efficiency, extracting more energy from the fuel than is possible without the addition of hydrogen to the fuel mix.

A simplified version of how the on board hydrogen generator works is essentially a water reservoir which holds the water. Within this water is a coil of wire that conducts electricity. Electricity is supplied via the alternator or battery and then tubes are attached to the top of the water reservoir which, in turn leads to the air intake. It is through these tubes that the oxygen and hydrogen mixture is conducted to the engine via the air intake, thus enriching the fuel mixture and changing the internal burn pattern of the cylinders themselves. It is through these optimized burn patterns that more of the energy from the fuel is conserved and extracted, thereby doing useful work instead of leaving with the exhaust.

does that help you understand any better?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvY3cgvNLio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv9vMzXJbho

 

Quoting from websites that are tryna sell HHO or hydrogen on demand systems is pointless.

http://www.articleslash.net/Automotive/480328__How-Hydrogen-Generators-For-Cars-Work.html

 

Rikky,
Well I guess your happy being MR Negative good for you. As for me I like to keep an open mind. Thanks for your nicely worded last responce. By the way
I will keep updating this post for the open minded people.:-D


Source: http://www.articlesbase.com/automotive-articles/how-hydrogen-generators-for-cars-work-568804.html

posting the Nay sayers is also pointless. Where is your real proof? Mine is on my truck and still working. you can see the
pics.

 

Pleasure sweetpea Mr negative,moi?:-D I love pseudo science,its what makes the imaginary world go round,I wish everyone would put jam jars full of explosive gas under their bonnet ,I get bored easily :-D

BTW could you post the make and model of your truck plus the engine size.

 

roflmaoroflmaoroflmao

lulz,even your link is by a guy who's tryna sell snake oil :-D

Dude if you don't want my input why do you keep calling me out?If you don't want me in your thread stop asking for my input.

I was happy to leave you to your own devices to post your experience but it seems you weren't happy without me?

The link I provided with the numbers is my proof,the one with the scientific explanation of what's happening inside a combustion chamber,increases combustion efficiency is like saying this bottle of snake oil will improve the efficiency of your engine.

There's a wikipedia page about that too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pill

 

Hmm, almost double the MPG? Get that notarized post haste man! Buy up all their stock and make a killing! You'll be on easy street real quick and say 'There's a recession? What recession!' and laugh all the way to the bank instead of wasting your time trying to convince the scientifically minded to make sales. You did ask for opinions!

 

One thing that keeps bugging me is if it drains the engine so bad why not do what many late model dirt track people do. Take the alternater off the engine and run it off the drive shaft? Buy the mount kit and mout it on the rear end to run off the driver shaft? I want to give this a try on my 84 TransAm

 

Damn Auggie, dont read much do you? just scanning things for something to laugh about. I will type it real slow for you, maybe then you can read it.
I designed and built this my self. There is no stock....DUH!

 

ok Rikky, very funny you found another page with the same link on it. WOW wished I could do that. your proof is a printed page of some one that has never built one or used it? Damn im impressed.........NOT:claproflmaoroflmao



As for calling you out.
You asked me questions and I answered them.I have asked you questions, still have not gotten the answers to them.
As for the truck, try reading not scanning. I told you what is was even posted a pic of it.

 

N5,
hey, dont mind those 2. they have no physical proof that this doesnt work.

anyways, what are you wanting to put on TA?

 

Awww them two are alright with me. Just need to be more opened minded maybe you figured something noone else thought of. Well the TA it has the factory 305HO SBC and I want to do afew things to it when I have it back on the road I would get more MPG. See now on the highway it gets 30MPG and I want to see what else I could get out of it.

 

Halo,

I used a quart size canning jar wide mouth as the container. went and got some stainless steel wire and 2 electrical connectors from hardware store.
rubber grommets and vacum hose and t connectors from auto zone. also got a compressor drain cock and hose fitting for air inlet. used 2 inch pvs pipe for element support. cut out sides of pipe leaving about a half inch on both ends and about 3\8 inch on each of the 4 posts. drilled holes for the wire on
2 of the posts about a 1\4 inch apart staggard. so it will wrap around to the top. done this for each wire. Note: use a plastic center with the metal ring for lid, will short out if you use a metal lid. drill four holes in lid, 2 small ones for wires, 2 bigger ones for vacum hose and air inlet. once you have both wires wrapped around all 4 posts with each wire going thru the holes of 2 post on opposite sides making sure they do not touch each other. your ready to connect to the lid and put the air inlet together with rubber grommit between both peices put hose on it to go to the bottom of jar. once this is done fill with water and use 1 teaspoon baking powder for catalyst. connect vacum hose to lid with rubber grommet run to engine and T to manafold vacum and air inlet for carb or injectors. silicone around vacum hose at lid and air inlet. connect hot wire to switch or ignition. connect negative wire to battery. Im sure I forgot some steps but you can look at pics and ask me for help if you have a problem.

 

What questions would you like answers to? I've tried my best to educate you but you don't want to listen,its not my fault you don't understand the science or the math in the articles I have posted,the reason I was reading up on this subject wasn't to understand how the HHO or hydrogen hybrid system works I understand it perfectly down to what happens at an atomic level, what I was interested in is the myth and the psychology of the water fuelled car and why people are still stupid enough to fall for it.

You have actually taught me a great deal for instance why there is such a communication gap between scientists and people like you,I wouldn't be surprised if next you say the oil companies are suppressing this technology to keep you buying more gas,you've whipped this up in your garage and doubled your MPG why aren't they on all cars?

Toyota and many other car companies have wasted all those billions of dollars on research and design into hybrid cars and kenetic energy recovery systems if only they knew they could stick a jam jar with a few pipes in under the bonnet they could double the MPG of the Prius :-D

What am I supposed to do?Tell me!If I post numbers will you just ignore them again?If I post detailed descriptions of the physics and chemistry involved will you at least try to understand them? Of course not or we wouldn't be in this position.

You say some experts say this works and some experts say it doesn't,WRONG! There are NO experts that say this works that aren't conmen,show me a link to a qualified professor or scientific advisor that says this works,maybe if I got a WWF wrestler to tell it won't work and will never work you would listen then.:-D

I was willing to help you understand,to show you logically your wasting your time simply because I'm a nice guy but this moment has passed,now I just want to warn anyone anyone reading this thread that this system is a waste of time and not to invest in any of the kits for sale or waste any of your precious lifetime building one.

Dew there's nothing wrong with not understanding how that contraption you have built works,few people do,I would never insult anyone for not understanding the science or the math but when people that do understand it try to help you out and you throw it back in their face,patronise and insult them well,that's the epitome of stupidity.

Now you say you've doubled your MPG?You've either made a serious mistake in your fuel consumption measurements or your just outright lying.

No you didn't you said

That's not what I asked,can you read?There aren't any words bigger than six letters give it a shot.:cool