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Win 10.. Not Happy

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by foogoo, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. foogoo

    foogoo Major "foogoo" Geek

    This is not a thread asking for help, just a little history of my Windows 10 experience.
    I had the Dell running Win 7 forever, no issues. Figured it was time to learn Win 10, so I loaded Win 10 on the SSD drive and even went as far as making the backup / rescue USB took up 10 + GB... never one to buy into these recovery system before - I either 'ghosted' the drive or just rebuild it when it died... usually after a long while, mind you.
    A few months in the system would no boot, tried repairing boot, yada yada, got out the recovery USB & booted it - would not boot! really? OK, reload - using a new SSD I reloaded Win 10.. a few months (of light use) I boot up and it detected a problem with the drive and "may take an hour or more" to fix. Reboots to desktop, click menu and nothing.. minutes later, the menu pops & a warning about my profile and rights, so this one is hosed too.
    Not a good start with Win 10. Might go back and see if Win 7 has any issues - didn't before.
    I'm getting a new work laptop with Win 10 anyways..
  2. baklogic

    baklogic MajorGeek

    Unfortunately, it does have a few niggles -I lost my Lenova webcam for a month, or, two, when the big update came along- only just got a driver offered that fixed it (a windows 10 update, believe it, or, not)
    I am not over the moon with Windows 10, but, everything changes, so I try to keep up. I thought there was nothing wrong with Windows 7 (I had the Ultimate version), and also, Windows 8.1.
    I bought the Lenova with W8.1 on it, and took the free update, but so intrusive, and I would think long term, that it will be well hacked because of this (obviously we have to shut off what we do not like, or, set up without allowing too much 'peek a boo'.
    I like my spare hard drive, with W7, and Windows 10 dual boot, and my well have triple boot with W8.1, when I get around to it-helps keep the grey cells working....I had to change to mbr, to get that working.
  3. Digerati

    Digerati MajorGeek

    I say that is hardly a fair assessment of W10. You took a notebook that was designed in W7 times and forced a modern OS on it. W7 is almost 8 years old. You installed W10 on it and it worked for a few months. Now it fails and you conclude it must be W10's fault even though 100s of millions of users are using W10 with no problems?

    It is critical to note, understand and accept that it is the hardware makers responsibility to provide compatible drivers for their legacy products - like your old computer. MS published the necessary specs a solid year before W10 came out (which is coming up on 2 years now). It is not Microsoft's fault if the hardware makers fail to produce the necessary drivers for their older, out of production, products.

    Hardware makers have little to no incentive to spend resources they will never recoup developing drivers for legacy hardware. Instead, they want consumers to buy new hardware where there are profits to earn. But again, that is not MS's fault.

    W7 was a great OS. No doubt the best to that point. W8.x was actually a great OS too - but it was a failure due to poor marketing decisions at Microsoft where they wanted to force a new UI on users in the hopes we would automatically buy a Windows Phone next time we wanted a new phone. W10 is the best Windows yet - but it is designed to support current and future hardware, not legacy hardware. And IMO, that's how it should be. As a hardware tech, I don't want my OS to stifle advances in hardware, I want my OS to make my current generation hardware excel. And it does.

    Is W10 perfect? Of course not. With an estimated 50 million lines of code (depending on version) in W10, there's likely to always be a few bugs here and there. But with Microsoft's new business plan to keep evolving Windows rather than replacing it every few years, it is likely to keep getting better and better - as long as the hardware makers do their part too.

    If you wipe your drives, reinstall W7 and everything works perfectly again, that does NOT mean W10 is broken. It means your legacy hardware is approaching obsolescence and does not support the current OS. Retiring perfectly good hardware due to its inability to keep up with the times is just a fact of life. We've all done it, and not just with computers but with TVs and monitors, cell phones, VCRs, cassette players, and more.
  4. foogoo

    foogoo Major "foogoo" Geek

    never said it was, just my experience.
    I'd bet that out of the 400 million Win 10 users there are a few that have problems, it can't be infallible.
    Getting a little off topic but, they gave the OS away and forced people to install it, knowing that the old hardware would not meet requirements?
    I know, you'll say "forced", was a bit much, but the average user can't click no & MS got sued for this tactic.
    Then shouldn't Win 10 determine if the hardware is suited for the install/upgrade???
    So if it wasn't going to work, it never should of worked (installed).
  5. Digerati

    Digerati MajorGeek

    Nobody - especially me - said it was infallible.
    No they didn't. There were a few cases where the upgrade happened without user input. And yes, Microsoft was sued for a whole $10,000 (yes 10 thousand dollars). And yes it was annoying and a bit strong armed. But we were not forced into it.
    Huh? And that's Microsoft's fault? Note that is exactly what hackers and malware writers count on - users being click happy.

    Yes, and for the most part, they do. And sadly, there have been some cases where it said it was compatible but was not. But those were the exceptions, not the rule. By a HUGE margin, the vast majority of updates went just fine.

    And it is sad some failed. But understand the challenge. Virtually every single Windows computer becomes a unique computer within minutes of the very first boot. Users start customizing Windows, install their own programs including security programs, and they start attaching their own hardware and installing drivers for that hardware. Frankly, I think it an amazing task so many upgrades went so well.

    But to your specific case, you said this computer worked fine for several months.

    Studies estimate that more than 99% of the upgrades worked just fine. In any industry, a 99% success rate is remarkable. But that still means for every 100 million, that is still 1,000,000 unhappy customers. And 1,000,000 unhappy customers can make a lot of noise - especially when amplified by many biased wannabe journalists in the IT press.

    I am sorry you had problems. But no body is perfect, not even Microsoft.
    MaxTurner likes this.
  6. MaxTurner

    MaxTurner MajorGeek

    Unfortunately far too many people still think a PC is no different to a washing machine, microwave or bog standard TV. It isn't, and that with a shocking lack of attention is what leads to most problems no matter what the OS is.
    Without a doubt Microsoft should have handled the precursor information for the free upgrade much better by making users better educated about preparing their old (Win 7 & 8) systems first, and not allowing the 'no' turn into a forced 'yes'. They also should have had a better utility to run on the old systems to check the hardware.
    But given the numbers involved, MS did pretty good job of it that is an envy to other businesses.
    Digerati likes this.
  7. baklogic

    baklogic MajorGeek

    o_O My thoughts, for what they are worth---Considering how buggy Windows ME, and Vista were, after XP's remarkable run, Windows 7 , I found, was near the nutcracker.
    Windows 8, once 'sorted' into Windows 8.1 was very good, Windows 10 is like the Ultimate version of Windows 8.1.
    Of course there are other operating systems, other than Microsoft's, but I could not get interested in them, as I found I had to get to grip with a totally different system.:confused:
    At my age, I can see the reasons for much of the changes- security, less anonymity, track ability, traceability, etc: from the international point of reckoning , today- I don't like it, particularly, but times change, technology, nowadays, is thrusting forward so fast that we have to accept some changes -Piracy, hacking, miss-use of the web, all mean that systems have to be in front of these threats, and I would think that over the next few years, more security measures must be implemented in the operating system, and malware/antivirus software to counteract the threats. It has been known that even webcams are hacked -I wonder how many install a cover on them, now?
    Sadly, Foogoo, older pc/laptops will become more vulnerable, as support for them ceases, so Windows 10, like it, or, not, is part of that necessary push towards tomorrow.;)
    Digerati likes this.
  8. foogoo

    foogoo Major "foogoo" Geek

    - No problems , seems infallible.
    Ok, forced seems a bit strong then, lets say it was installed without their consent? But acknowledging it happened invalidates the "No they didn't" part of that statement.

    Really there was no reason for anyone to get a chapped @$$ about my post I was just stating my experience, take it or leave it...
    read the post and say hey I've had a similar experience or hey I think it is the bomb, not go into a rant to prove to someone their experience is wrong...

    I love MS, without them & a few others, I would not have a job.
    baklogic likes this.
  9. baklogic

    baklogic MajorGeek

    Foogoo -- It has always been a niggle that Microsoft would just get a system working nicely, with everyone happy, then deciding it is time to collect more 'tosh', as business's could be pressed into a new operating system, in time, and the other users could be leaned on to upgrade, until that worked. Then business would follow.
    Each new operating system is the bees knees, we are encouraged to believe.
    It is surprising how even geeks, (or, nurds, like me), have such different ways off looking at it -a good chance to get it of one's chest, what :D
  10. MaxTurner

    MaxTurner MajorGeek

    Actually Win 10 per se was not about money at all. The one and only Windows OS made available FREE, and for a whole year!
    Win 10 was about something very different.
    foogoo and baklogic like this.
  11. baklogic

    baklogic MajorGeek

    Yes, free for a short time- slowly, slowly ,catchy monkey- then hit them, just like the sweeties at the checkout at the supermarket.
    I like Windows, Max, but it is always about the money for big corporations. They did lean very hard on the ordinary punter, as you must remember- and I had to stop the update being pushed through on many pc/laptops, as people were happy with what they had. Free for a short time, then they made it impossible for the ordinary punter to roll back , and stopped the factory recovery working- If people never made a set of recovery discs, they were done. Not everyone wanted it, nor, wants it - It was a commercial gimic to give it away for a short time- as they then want paying if you never upgraded when you had a chance - so it was the sweety at the checkout.
  12. MaxTurner

    MaxTurner MajorGeek

    It was totally free for 12 months which is not a short time, and a month to ditch it. I think that was pretty good, alongside the reservations I posted earlier about how they could have handled it better. Apart from Linux, no one else has ever given an OS free!
  13. Digerati

    Digerati MajorGeek

    No, that is not what happened, except with a tiny handful of people and that was NOT by design. As YOU correctly noted before, "the average user can't click no". If a user was not paying attention and allowed the update to happen, that is not "without their consent".
    When incorrect statements are given as fact, it does get folks who know better upset.
    A year is a short time? They didn't have to give a day. Some people only want more more more. :( You over look another huge factor, once you buy W10 for your computer, you never have to buy another license for it. As long as you can keep it running, you get free upgrades forever.
    No, this is a totally distorted and biased way of looking at it. If people never made a set of recovery disks (like they were prompted to several times) that's their fault, not Microsoft's. But you blame MS. :(

    It was not a commercial gimmick at all - EXCEPT maybe as an olive branch for Windows 8. Gimmick implies a trick to attract business. Microsoft lost 10 of $billions in potential sales by giving it away.

    The whole idea for encouraging everyone to move to W10 was so Microsoft could concentrate all their resources on just one OS. And that just make plain good business sense. Especially in light of the decline in PC sales in recent years.

    Lets not forget that you had a choice to move to Linux. There is very little (except playing games) you cannot do just as easily with a Linux based system.
    MaxTurner likes this.
  14. foogoo

    foogoo Major "foogoo" Geek

    What fact did I quote that was wrong?
    No is a definite statement, then you contradict it with an exception...lol.

    You said yourself
    without input, ie without consent??

    not at all.. except...lol again...
    Yeah there not going to make any money off the "tracking info" they collect or the ADs they put in Explorer...or even start charging for updates... yeah it is "free". Taking the script form a drug dealer it is free until you're on it, then the price goes up.

    If y'all read I did make the recovery USB, which failed to work...I am sure that was my fault, not Windows, right? We are not all as smart as some others here apparently. I only spend nearly every waking hour having to do something to do with computers..
    So now it is not about proving someone wrong, it is about proving you're better, ok. Is that enough validation?
  15. baklogic

    baklogic MajorGeek

    And the sheep were herded into the enclosure by the sheepdog (Microsoft) WELCOME TO WINDOWS 10.;):mad::confused::Do_O
  16. MaxTurner

    MaxTurner MajorGeek

    Great post escaping the purge ;)
  17. Digerati

    Digerati MajorGeek

    I and others already showed you what "facts" you claimed were wrong - the big one being you claimed users were forced to upgrade to W10. That is wrong.

    But it seems clear you believe exceptions make the rule. And since, as YOU said (with your bold), "it never should of worked" yet because a tiny handful of people had problems, W10 must be a lousy program - in spite of the fact 100s of millions have no problems and were not "forced" to upgrade.

    All I can say to you is don't ever buy a Lexus. They "never" should break down but I heard that one did break down the other day so Lexus must make poor quality cars. :rolleyes:
  18. Eldon

    Eldon Major Geek Extraordinaire

    The iSheeple will not be happy... :rolleyes:
  19. Digerati

    Digerati MajorGeek

    In fairness to foogoo, I can certainly understand his frustration. When something should work but doesn't it is natural to be frustrated and we automatically start looking for reasons. And, sadly, it seems popular to automatically blame Microsoft and Windows instead of the hardware (or the user) even though the exact same code installs and works properly on 100s of millions of other computers.

    This is not Apple here - where Apple uses their proprietary code on their own proprietary hardware. I mean if Apple code is not compatible with Apple hardware, pointing fingers at the responsible party is easy.

    But these are "Wintel" systems - systems made from bits and pieces from 10s of 1000s of different manufacturers (in millions of different combinations) that are all expected to work together in perfect harmony. And the amazing this is (thanks to the ATX Form Factor and other industry standards and protocols) for the most part they do. We can take a "Gigabyte" motherboard, install an "Intel" CPU, "MSI/NVIDIA" graphics card, "Corsair" RAM, "Samsung" SSD, all powered by a "Seasonic" power supply and slap them into a "Fractal Design" case, install "Microsoft" Windows, install "Avast" anti-malware, "Mozilla" Firefox, and "Corel" Office and they all work together in perfect harmony. Then swap in a ASUS/AMD graphics card and it will still work in perfect harmony. I find that level of cooperation between different and often competing companies amazing, astonishing, and refreshing! You don't even see that in "Wintel" notebooks.

    Of course, there will be some extreme exceptions, but again, exceptions don't make the rule - unless you are on who believes it is not the norm that counts, but the exceptions that are "definitive". :(

    All any OS maker can do is write the code to standards and published protocols. It is then up to the hardware makers to ensure their hardware complies with those standards and protocols.

    I have my own little repair business and sadly I have seen quite a few systems that failed to upgrade properly with W10. And it is frustrating. But it is by a very wide margin that theses failures where on older, W7 systems (many were older Vista or even late model XP systems that were upgraded to W7 first). I don't recall any system that came with W8 from the factory that failed the upgrade to W10. And we have had zero new systems, built since W10 came out, that failed to support W10.

    Microsoft proved with XP that when you code an OS to support legacy hardware, you sacrifice security. They did that with XP (because companies did not want to retool - again - for a new OS) and got blamed relentlessly for the next 10+ years for security issues, even though it was the bad guys and poor user discipline that put us in this situation. They vowed to never let that happen again. And I applaud them for that. So W10 is designed to support more secure current and future hardware, not legacy less secure hardware.

    Microsoft strived hard to ensure upgrades went well. Why? Because they knew bashers would be relentless at bashing if any, even 1 failure occurred. That's how people (especially the IT press and bloggers) are with anything Microsoft. :(

    If legacy hardware does not run right on Windows 10, it is not Windows 10 fault. It is the hardware maker's fault to ensure the proper drivers are available IF the hardware can be made compatible with new drivers.

    Microsoft should have done a better job, IMO, with their compatibility checker, but that's on Microsoft, not Windows 10. But then again, that compatibility checker had to confirm 100s of 1000s of different hardware devices, and countless software programs.

    At the same time, users should have been more responsible too. If their hardware makers did not have W10 drivers listed on their sites for their hardware, they probably should not have attempted the upgrade. At least, they should have tested their backup plan before jumping in.

    Is it fair to assume W10 must be 100% "definitive" perfect? Is it reasonable to expect only perfection 100% of the time from something made by Man?

    I think it important to note that in this case, this old computer worked fine with W10 for a few months - twice.
  20. MaxTurner

    MaxTurner MajorGeek

    Even I have to accept that things are not always good with MS or Windows 10.
    I have 4 systems with Win 10. On three of them, the latest WU cumulative updates KB4014329 and KB4015438 have installed without problem.
    However, on one system, neither of those cumulative will install - they get to 7% and the never ending 'couldn't complete the changes'. I am now virtually tearing my small remaining amount of hair out having run every single fix known to man and the internet. I will wait now until April, having disabled WU on that system, and if it doesn't work then I will have to reinstall Windows.
    If it was my only system I might have smashed it against the wall already.
  21. Digerati

    Digerati MajorGeek

    I have not had to "reinstall" Windows since XP days. That is and always should be a last resort option.

    As for Windows Update, I see no reason to disable it, even if an update fails. I have an old Toshiba notebook I bought in 2010. It came with W7 and it occasionally gives me problems with W10 updates. I have found a simple reboot typically clears most problems with WU. If an update still refuses, I just wait it out. As more users experience the problem and MS gets enough feedback, they sort it out and release a fix that does work. At least that's how its worked so far.

    I have lots of problems with Microsoft the company and some of the decisions they have made. But the marketing weenies and executives are not the developers, who are among the best in the world and produce some of the best products in the world, in spite of some of the marketing and business policies they have to live with too. And again, nobody is perfect. But also again, it seems hard to definitively put the fault on W10 when the vast majority of computers upgrade without issues. Even in your case, 3 computers updated fine. That suggests the update works and there is something different about that 4th system.
  22. MaxTurner

    MaxTurner MajorGeek

    I've disabled WU on that one system because every time I turn it on it tries to run the latest update, unsuccessfully, and it's restarting several times. The latest update which 'could not complete the changes' is the FIX for KB4014329.
  23. Digerati

    Digerati MajorGeek

    And have you run the Windows Update Troubleshooter?
  24. MaxTurner

    MaxTurner MajorGeek

    Yes indeed.
  25. wile e coyote

    wile e coyote MajorGeek

    The reason why i got rid of windows 10 was be cause of the major hard drive crash that i got with a new laptop.Windows 10 really did crash the 1tb hard drive that was installed in this laptop i am using.

    After that issue i had i said heck no to windows ten.And downgraded to windows 7.Completely stable even with updates.I run games like GTA 5 at full settings and mmo's and replaced the hard drive with a SSD and runs smooth.
  26. DOA

    DOA MG's Loki

    There are stable OS's, ones that outlive their hardware. Unfortunately MS has not seen stability as a priority. Many years ago the attitude was that features sell over stability. PC's could be as stable as an appliance, we just need to get off the merry go round of useless features.
  27. MaxTurner

    MaxTurner MajorGeek

    And that's why a whole army of developers come up rapidly with simple free apps to wipe those 'useless features' out - except of course those who like them and use them.
    When you refer here to MS you should reasonably refer to and include every single home appliance manufacturer on the planet. They have all been doing, what MS does with computing, but for a very much longer time. No one breaks into a home any more to steal the things they used to as they are virtually worthless now in the cheap 'throw away' manufacturing economy.
  28. MaxTurner

    MaxTurner MajorGeek

    To illustrate my point:
    In 1979 I bought my first Video Cassette Recorder (VCR) - a Sony Betamax - it was on 'offer' and at that time I paid the equivalent, then, of US$1055.00 (Sterling £500) in today's value I spent $3,762.35.
  29. DOA

    DOA MG's Loki

    Back closer to OP -
    "It is critical to note, understand and accept that it is the hardware makers responsibility to provide compatible drivers for their legacy products - like your old computer."
    There has to be some culpability by the OS to not fail with older drivers without warning. Any OS update on a working computer has to continue working or NOT UPDATE. At the very least it should automatically roll back on a crash to a usable state and post a warning.
    baklogic likes this.

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